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samuelchristian
27-05-2010, 03:59 PM
I have decided not to go the route of .kar files thanks to forum advice. What about mp3g. I have come across a couple of sites offering very cheap packages. Any comments or suggestions?

http://www.karamp3.com

http://www.v-direct.org.uk/karaoke-xtremedvd.htm

Jason
27-05-2010, 07:10 PM
I have decided not to go the route of .kar files thanks to forum advice. What about mp3g. I have come across a couple of sites offering very cheap packages. Any comments or suggestions?

http://www.karamp3.com

http://www.v-direct.org.uk/karaoke-xtremedvd.htm


karamp3.com "3700 Files" for £49.99... what do you really think?

Sunfly discs currently selling for £6+ (I've not looked too hard) Obviously some deals around, but assume £5ea, thats still just under £1000 for 3700 tracks (assuming 20 tracks/CD)

If they were "legit" (ie not pirate copies of Sunfly, Zoom etc), then they will either be very poor quality (ie .kar files saved as MP3+G), or simply terrible versions.

Your best bet is to locate (ebay/forums) 2nd hand sets, and hunt around for deals from Legitimate suppliers.

Twinspin
27-05-2010, 07:39 PM
i wouldnt risk it personally there seems a lot on offer for such a little price It would be more legal to buy the sunfly, legends, zoom etc etc.
on the original discs and buy some software to convert it to MP3 & G

http://www.karaokedirect.co.uk

these seem to be a good shop.

DazzyD
28-05-2010, 02:07 PM
i wouldnt risk it personally there seems a lot on offer for such a little price It would be more legal to buy the sunfly, legends, zoom etc etc.
on the original discs and buy some software to convert it to MP3 & G

http://www.karaokedirect.co.uk

these seem to be a good shop.

Bear in mind that not all computer disc drives are capable of reading sub-channel data (a sub-program of Nero, Disc Drive Info, shows it a tick-box labelled CD+G but other programs might just show "sub-channel data").

If the drive you have can't read CD+G discs then you will not be able to rip and convert them.

Twinspin
28-05-2010, 02:28 PM
Dazzy has a good point there. The drives ive heard that can do CDG are the samsung drives and plextor but id look at the technical specs before you buy. If that was your intention of doing that.

Vectis
28-05-2010, 05:53 PM
and buy some software to convert it to MP3 & G


and a ProDub licence with a karaoke extension :bang:

Jason
28-05-2010, 07:52 PM
Are any UK Karaoke companies signed up with the MCPS to receive funds from ProDub?

I thought they paid the copyright holder (for the lyrics), and as they produced the background music in-house, there are not performance fees to pay? (very happy to be corrected!)

Not much point paying for the Karaoke add-on if the Karaoke companies are not going to receive anything AND the original song-writers/company has been "sorted" directly by the Karaoke company!

I would personally contact the Karaoke company who's Disks you intend to rip and ask their permission.
A statement from Zoom and Laughing Knome in Sept. 2008 says they are (at time of writing) happy for DJ's to continue ripping their tracks from Original CDG's.

Source: http://www.djassociates.org/karaoke_news.html

Now- this status may have changed, so its worth checking before paying for a ProDub Add-on that is not required.
I do not offer Karaoke, but a fresh response from these companies would be helpful to those that do.

DazzyD
29-05-2010, 10:00 AM
Are any UK Karaoke companies signed up with the MCPS to receive funds from ProDub?

I thought they paid the copyright holder (for the lyrics), and as they produced the background music in-house, there are not performance fees to pay? (very happy to be corrected!)

Not much point paying for the Karaoke add-on if the Karaoke companies are not going to receive anything AND the original song-writers/company has been "sorted" directly by the Karaoke company!

I would personally contact the Karaoke company who's Disks you intend to rip and ask their permission.
A statement from Zoom and Laughing Knome in Sept. 2008 says they are (at time of writing) happy for DJ's to continue ripping their tracks from Original CDG's.

Source: http://www.djassociates.org/karaoke_news.html

Now- this status may have changed, so its worth checking before paying for a ProDub Add-on that is not required.
I do not offer Karaoke, but a fresh response from these companies would be helpful to those that do.

Finally! Somebody else spotted it!

This is the reason why I haven't purchased ProDub yet. I have, on a few occasions, emailed ProDub to ask them to verify the legallity of the karaoke upgrade and how exactly the karaoke companies/session musicians who record the backing would be paid from ProDub.

As the article states, karaoke tracks are not always (but sometimes) covered under MCPS. However, there are some companies that strictly forbid the conversion of their tracks from CD+G (the article states Sound Choice but I'm sure others include Sunfly which, as the biggest manufacturer & distributor of karaoke discs, this could leave you with a really big hole in your MP3+G collection).

So, as I've stated before, I'm not 100% sure of the legallity of the ProDub karaoke add-on and, as a big part of my business is karaoke, I'm not buying the licence for this very reason. At least until someone gives me concrete proof of what karaoke tracks I can legally (and with agreement of the CD+G companies) convert and also make it clear which companies (like Zoom - never actually heard of Laughing Gnome, though :confused:) give permission to do so outside of ProDub.

I'm not holding my breath as it's over a year since my first email to ProDub and, despite repeat emails, I've never heard anything back... yet!

rob1963
30-05-2010, 11:21 AM
Are any UK Karaoke companies signed up with the MCPS to receive funds from ProDub?


Finally! Somebody else spotted it!

This is the reason why I haven't purchased ProDub yet.

Surely it's irrelevant whether UK karaoke companies are signed up with MCPS to receive funds from ProDub?

If the law says you need a ProDub licence to format shift karaoke songs, then you need a licence...regardless of where the money ends up.

It's a bit like saying "I'm not paying the road tax for my car...because nobody has been able to prove to me that 100% of the money I pay will be spent maintaining the roads."

TonyB
30-05-2010, 12:05 PM
Under copyright law, the writers of the tracks and composers of the music own the copyright (or have passed the rights to the MCPS/PRS or whoever) and their work cannot be reproduced without their permission or a licence.

No one can make money from someones copyright work without the appropriate permission.

It doesn't matter that the Karaoke companies say that they are not registered with MCPS - they may have some other licencing agreement in place for them to have permission to reproduce the works.

PRS for music represent the copyright holders of the music and lyrics.

If they say you need a Pro Dub to bring another copy of the works into existence, then you need one.

Jason
30-05-2010, 12:18 PM
The ProDub is ONLY for artists/companies that are represented by the MCPS.

If a DJ ONLY (unlikely) ever played unsigned bands, and had their permission to format shift their tracks, then no produb is required.
In the real world, this probably wouldn't happen- every DJ needs an ABBA track somewhere... lol

So.. if a KDJ has permission from the Karaoke companies to format shift their tracks - no produb is required.

As I stated, the Karaoke companies have already gained permission from the copyright holders for the use of the lyrics, and I would fully assume this involves payment to them.

I guess my point is... contact the Karaoke companies for clarification.

If no Karaoke companies will benefit from produb karaoke extension, and their copyright obligations to songwriters have been covered (through their normal channels) then if I were a Karaoke DJ, I'd like to know how a Karaoke add-on can be justified.

TonyB
30-05-2010, 12:24 PM
The ProDub is ONLY for artists/companies that are represented by the MCPS.

So.. if a KDJ has permission from the Karaoke companies to format shift their tracks - no produb is required.



Not so - MCPS and PRS or PRS for music as they are now called.

The Karaoke companies do not have a right to give permission on behalf of the original copyright holder.

PRS are in effect the original copyright holders and it is down to them to say what can and can't be done with the works that they represent the copyright holders for.

DazzyD
31-05-2010, 12:47 AM
My concern was with the legality of the karaoke upgrade. I have no problems with the music side of things. However, it was pointed out to me that MCPS / PRS (as far as I'm aware) don't actually own the copyright to the graphics or, for that matter, any data recorded alongside audio on a CD (be it CD+TEXT, CD+G, or any other sub-channel data). Therefore, how can they charge for the privilege of format-shifting something they don't actually own the rights to? It's the karaoke companies that create these graphics (and thus own the rights to them) so do they receive a payment from ProDub to allow users to rip the graphics alongside the audio? How do they know which karaoke tracks have been played and therefore who to pay? No one has answered this for me yet. We've already said that Sound Choice strictly prohibit the format-shifting of their products so can ProDub really over-ride their own terms and conditions? Again, this hasn't been answered.

Back in the olden days (!) there was the Digital DJ Licence which covered DJs when using digital music but that avoided karaoke (possibly due to the fact that there were issues with karaoke beyond PRS's control?) so how have they suddenly ironed out these issues? Have they ironed out the issues? Or are my concerns so totally unfounded that they don't even warrant a reply?

I had high hopes for the "new Digital DJ Licence" (now ProDub) when it was announced it would cover karaoke but I feel badly let down as no-one has convinced me that the karaoke upgrade legitimately does what it set out to do.


Not so - MCPS and PRS or PRS for music as they are now called.

The Karaoke companies do not have a right to give permission on behalf of the original copyright holder.

PRS are in effect the original copyright holders and it is down to them to say what can and can't be done with the works that they represent the copyright holders for.

I thought PRS own nothing whatsoever other than the contract of the true copyright holders (usually the songwriters, publishers and record companies) to collect revenue on their behalf? In fact, from their website on the "About Us" page:


PRS for Music is home to the world's best music writers, composers and publishers. Formed as The MCPS-PRS Alliance in 1997 with the PRS for Music brand adopted in 2009, the organisation brings together two royalty collection societies; MCPS and PRS. We exist to collect and pay royalties to our members when their music is exploited in one of a number of ways – when it is recorded onto any format and distributed to the public, performed or played in public, broadcast or made publicly available online.


So they administer the royalies-collection duties on behalf of their members. This doesn't indicate that they themselves own the right to any musical works.

Actually, because of this info it makes the first part of my post wrong. As they collect royalties on behalf of their members, can anyone tell me which karaoke companies are members of PRS For Music so I know which ones will get paid should I go ahead the licence?

TonyB
31-05-2010, 02:43 AM
The members assign their rights of copyright to PRS for Music so in effect they are the copyright holders on their members behalf.

With any musical track there are several copyrights that apply.

For a Karaoke track there is copyright for:

The songwriter (Lyrics)
composer (Music)
The composition and production of the track (production by the record/karaoke company)

In order to make a copy of the track and not breach copyright, you have to get permission from each party.

The karaoke companies can only give permission to make copies for the part in which they have a copyright interest i.e. the production of the track. You still need permission to make a copy from the songwriter and composer. As the songwriters/composers have assigned their copyright interest to PRS for Music* then the Karaoke Pro Dub extension gives permission for you to make a copy.

As Sound Choice prohibit the copying of their tracks, then copying would not be allowed even with a Pro Dub.

Whether or not the Karaoke companies assign their copyright interest to PRS or PPL is irrelevant (as they are more akin to record producers, PPL would be more relevant). They would only do so if they wish that PRS/PPL collected royalties on their behalf that they are entitled to under copyright. If they don't want to then thats their choice.

I do think it seems strange that Pro Dub charge extra for a Karaoke extension when they would have to distribute less as the Karaoke companies won't be receiving a share!

*PRS for music also collect royalties for similar international organisations for with which they have a reciprocal arrangement.

kilmeedyman
31-05-2010, 07:02 AM
The members assign their rights of copyright to PRS for Music so in effect they are the copyright holders on their members behalf.

With any musical track there are several copyrights that apply.

For a Karaoke track there is copyright for:

The songwriter (Lyrics)
composer (Music)
The composition and production of the track (production by the record/karaoke company)

In order to make a copy of the track and not breach copyright, you have to get permission from each party.

I do think it seems strange that Pro Dub charge extra for a Karaoke extension when they would have to distribute less as the Karaoke companies won't be receiving a share!

*PRS for music also collect royalties for similar international organisations for with which they have a reciprocal arrangement.

Tony is spot on.

The extra charge is for the physical reproduction of the lyrics.
Try printing the English Premier League Soccer fixtures in a magazine or web site and see how much copyright permission costs - its mind boggling!
Anyway, same rights of reproduction in print or digital format exists.

I can't ever remember seeing so many people in one profession struggling to find a way to worm out of their obligations. It does our industry no credit.... no credit at all.

Twinspin
31-05-2010, 10:04 PM
and a ProDub licence with a karaoke extension :bang:

as well yes if your doing karaoke. But i dont do karaoke myself.

Corabar Entertainment
31-05-2010, 10:13 PM
as well yes if your doing karaoke. But i dont do karaoke myself.
Well, considering this whole thread is about karaoke, and it's in the karaoke forum, it's a fair bet that those participating are interested in / already doing karaoke! :whistle:

Excalibur
31-05-2010, 10:42 PM
Well, considering this whole thread is about karaoke, and it's in the karaoke forum, it's a fair bet that those participating are interested in / already doing karaoke! :whistle:

Karaoke?Karaoke? Oops, I was looking for the thread about Darren's poorly RCF sub. My mistake. :o :o I'll go now, you've not seen me, right? ;) ;) ;)

TonyB
31-05-2010, 10:45 PM
I don't do Karaoke either but had a reason to do a pretty in depth analysis of the Copyright Act. It isn't easy to decipher some of it and initially raises more questions than answers but the bits are slowly falling in place.

DazzyD
01-06-2010, 12:18 AM
The members assign their rights of copyright to PRS for Music so in effect they are the copyright holders on their members behalf.

With any musical track there are several copyrights that apply.

For a Karaoke track there is copyright for:

The songwriter (Lyrics)
composer (Music)
The composition and production of the track (production by the record/karaoke company)

In order to make a copy of the track and not breach copyright, you have to get permission from each party.

The karaoke companies can only give permission to make copies for the part in which they have a copyright interest i.e. the production of the track. You still need permission to make a copy from the songwriter and composer. As the songwriters/composers have assigned their copyright interest to PRS for Music* then the Karaoke Pro Dub extension gives permission for you to make a copy.

As Sound Choice prohibit the copying of their tracks, then copying would not be allowed even with a Pro Dub.

And I think the same applies to Sunfly so that's the vast majority of karaoke tracks that, even paying for the karaoke upgrade, I still wouldn't be able to rip. And therein lies my concerns.

Whether or not the Karaoke companies assign their copyright interest to PRS or PPL is irrelevant (as they are more akin to record producers, PPL would be more relevant). They would only do so if they wish that PRS/PPL collected royalties on their behalf that they are entitled to under copyright. If they don't want to then thats their choice.

I do think it seems strange that Pro Dub charge extra for a Karaoke extension when they would have to distribute less as the Karaoke companies won't be receiving a share!

Bingo! And so do I!

*PRS for music also collect royalties for similar international organisations for with which they have a reciprocal arrangement.


Tony is spot on.

The extra charge is for the physical reproduction of the lyrics.
Try printing the English Premier League Soccer fixtures in a magazine or web site and see how much copyright permission costs - its mind boggling!
Anyway, same rights of reproduction in print or digital format exists.

I can't ever remember seeing so many people in one profession struggling to find a way to worm out of their obligations. It does our industry no credit.... no credit at all.

I take great offence at the suggestion that I am trying to worm out of my obligations. However, as I'm still using karaoke discs and legally downloaded MP3 then I don't have an obligation for ProDub anyway.

And to make things better, I've been visiting the major karaoke manufacturer sites today and have found that both Sunfly and Zoom now sell MP3+G downloads of both their individual tracks and complete CD+Gs so I can now do the same with karaoke as I do with music and it's one less customer for ProDub!

Actually, if the body that is issuing the licence would actually try to respond to concerns then I'd be more inclined to buy it but, as they don't seem to want to do this, then, for me, ProDub is a no-no.

kilmeedyman
01-06-2010, 12:57 AM
I take great offence at the suggestion that I am trying to worm out of my obligations. However, as I'm still using karaoke discs and legally downloaded MP3 then I don't have an obligation for ProDub anyway.

And to make things better, I've been visiting the major karaoke manufacturer sites today and have found that both Sunfly and Zoom now sell MP3+G downloads of both their individual tracks and complete CD+Gs so I can now do the same with karaoke as I do with music and it's one less customer for ProDub!


So you should take offence if that's what you do, however clearly you don't. Read the original post and decipher the intention of the OP for a take on my opinion.

Yes, go ahead and buy the karaoke tracks as downloads, everyone gets their rightful royalties so it works for me, and them I guess! :)

Tony is right. You can spend a long time studying copyright in this Country and its complexities and never be entirely sure you understand it fully.

Excalibur
01-06-2010, 12:16 PM
So you should take offence if that's what you do, however clearly you don't. Read the original post and decipher the intention of the OP for a take on my opinion.

Yes, go ahead and buy the karaoke tracks as downloads, everyone gets their rightful royalties so it works for me, and them I guess! :)

Tony is right. You can spend a long time studying copyright in this Country and its complexities and never be entirely sure you understand it fully.

While I can't pretend to have any expertise in this field, I think most folk on here would be quite prepared to pay the relevant fees as required. What I'm sure of is that they would also welcome with eagerness a simple answer as to what fees are required, why they are being levied, where they are going, and most of all a clear explanation of what's needed, by a body which appears competent, knowledgeable and informative, whoever they might be. Not asking for much, am I? :( :(

DazzyD
01-06-2010, 02:07 PM
While I can't pretend to have any expertise in this field, I think most folk on here would be quite prepared to pay the relevant fees as required. What I'm sure of is that they would also welcome with eagerness a simple answer as to what fees are required, why they are being levied, where they are going, and most of all a clear explanation of what's needed, by a body which appears competent, knowledgeable and informative, whoever they might be. Not asking for much, am I? :( :(

Whilst Peter is putting my feelings in to words, Phil is right in that this thread has come a long way off track from Sam's OP. If ProDub don't (or maybe can't) answer my queries then that's fine. It's one less customer for them to worry about and I'll continue using my hybrid CDs + legally downloaded straight-to-playout hard-drive system. I've fired off emails to all the major karaoke manufacturers to get their slant on things but I don't hold out much hope of anything changing my opinion.

Back to the OP. Sam, if you stop looking for "sounds-too-good-to-be-true" bargains and buy from legitimate sources (mostly direct from the manufacturers own sites) then you can't go far wrong. If you're buying (or downloading free) from suspect sites then it may cause you trouble regardless of the ProDub issues.