Sensitive one...

[Ricesnaps]

Guys, some advice or opions please - no names here!

I discovered rather dramatically on the way home from a very successful wedding last night, that my roadie suffers from Epelepcy (probabaly spelt that wrong!). Quite an experience as I've never been around someone who has a fit and the Paramedic and abulance crew were great. However, he actually never told me that he had this condition.

So now I am a little stuck and unsure. No need to suggest the "photo epeleptic" comments, I don't know and it is on the list to ask when I see him next. However, I don't know what the right thing to do with regards to him working woth me in future. He's a very very good roadie and helps with the DJing a little too, but I guess I am wondering what happens if the next time is in the middle of a gig, or when he's DJing etc... Don't get me wrong, I do realise that I have to talk to him and get some idea how it effects him to make decisions and I am guessing that it would very wrong not to keep using him simply because of this, but I am rather unsure of it all.

If it helps you give advice, my wife (ex nurse) tellms me from my description he has "grand" version on this condition (if that means anything).

Thanks in advance

[funkymike]

May sound a bit harsh, but this must be a H and S issue, having seen a few people having a fit and arms and legs flying everywhere, could be a accident waiting to happen, and as he didnt disclose it with you.........


mmmm thats a toughie

[Jiggles]

thisd should help http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/photo.html

[Corabar Entertainment]

....But you've also got disability discrimination legislation, as well as H&S legislation.

Many epileptics go years without a seizure (once they get the medication balance right).

I have known a few epileptics who don't disclose the fact - mainly because they couldn't get a job if they did.

How long have you known him Matt?

The DVLA allows epileptic sufferers to hold driving licences, providing they go 2 years (I believe it's 2 years, but I stand to be corrected on that one) without a seizure. Does he drive for you Matt? If so, that's a pretty good indication that the epilepsy is pretty much under control (or has been until last night.... it may be that they will need to 'tweak' the medication balance after that)

[Ricesnaps]

....But you've also got disability discrimination legislation, as well as H&S legislation.

Many epileptics go years without a seizure (once they get the medication balance right).

I have known a few epileptics who don't disclose the fact - mainly because they couldn't get a job if they did.

How long have you known him Matt?

The DVLA allows epileptic sufferers to hold driving licences, providing they go 2 years (I believe it's 2 years, but I stand to be corrected on that one) without a seizure. Does he drive for you Matt? If so, that's a pretty good indication that the epilepsy is pretty much under control (or has been until last night.... it may be that they will need to 'tweak' the medication balance after that)

He's been working for me for about 2 months now, doesn't work other than what he does with me and isn't allowed to drive at the moment - I never put two and two together until last night...

Unfortunately the journy from the ambulance to his home was not really the best time to discuss the whole thing and guess I am wondering what to believe as he didn't tell me about it in the first place. The only thing he said was that he had about one a year of this scale.

[Corabar Entertainment]

As you've said, the best thing to do is to talk to him when you get the opportunity: be upfront, forthright and honest, tell him your concerns, and see what he says to you.

If he is having approx 1 grand mal seizure a year, what are the odds on it happening whilst at a gig in the first place? .... By my reckoning, about 1 in 700 or more.

[CRAZY K]

Tough one Matt, I understand where Angela is coming from--however despite disability discrimination legislation the job is totally different from say a desk based job and has a lot of electrical hazards involved which from the Hand S angle I would say is a big No No.

Would he get a job as an electrician using discrimination legislation?

The job being done is not far removed in my opinion.

Also even at 700 to one odds what if a fit happened during the first dance at a Wedding and ruined the Wedding reception?

Solicitors here we come! :sad: Are you insured for that?

I bet PLI would not pay out :sad:

I would rather face a problem with discrimination claims than the H and S
or an angry party organiser/ bride and groom when someone gets electrocuted.

Just my personal view---but it does remind us what a potentially dangerous and responsible job we do--just remember that when giving a quote out next time!

CRAZY K

[Have a disco]

I feel very sorry suggest you talk about his medication and how it affects you he may well decide to play safe and no longer work doing disco's because of so many implications that could affect your business. Its never nice to ask some one to quit for there own safety. as well as yours or your guests

[funkymike]

At the end of the day he lied to you, if it was in a fulltime job he would have been sacked on the spot! Black and white really.

[Ricesnaps]

At the end of the day he lied to you, if it was in a fulltime job he would have been sacked on the spot! Black and white really.
It's just a tough one I guess.

Yes I will have a long chat with hime and see what he says, but am currently trawling through the net to get some info. I have a feeling that because he didn't tell me he had it, that I am unlikely to get the real truth from him if I ask now. Knowing the guy, I have a feeling he will just fob it off as unusual and say it'll never happen again and it's unusual and so on....

But as Alan said, what happens if it happens during a first dance, or while he's working near the gear and it results in the lighting rig falling on someone.

Bit of a bugger really, good roadies are difficult to find!

[Jiggles]

Bit of a bugger really, good roadies are difficult to find!

If i lived nere you or you lived nere me i could be your roadie :sad:

[CRAZY K]

Unfortunately on a business decision basis there is only one thing you can do,
sadly the "wrong kind of accident" could ruin your business you have spent years building up--

CRAZY K

[theoloyla]

Thing is anyone can have a heart attack , stroke, fainting fit etc. The important thing is which nobody has mentioned is that all the medical advice that I know of advises epilectics to avoid bright flashing lights as they can trigger a fit; so a disco environment is not really the best place for him or anyone elso who suffers with this illness.

[wensleydale]

i think people are being a little harsh here- he never told you - did you ask?

don't think you can work on the princilpe that it will happen during a first dance- and if it did, you'd have to be pretty idiotic to complain.

[Have a disco]

I'll be you roadie, Orange Kee Ora dum dyum dee dum dumm so could'nt help myself Bring the advert back all is forgiven

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Toooo orangey for Badgers.....

[Have a disco]

Not really the Golden Badger in the USA is actually Orangey ????? LOL

[Candybeatdiscos]

although its obvious....shouldn't we as DJ companies also have a sign warning that our shows contain bright flashing lights and may be dangerous for epiletics, this way it would cover us should someone have a fit at a gig

[funkymike]

although its obvious....shouldn't we as DJ companies also have a sign warning that our shows contain bright flashing lights and may be dangerous for epiletics, this way it would cover us should someone have a fit at a gig


I was asked once to turn the lights off because someone out of 150 people had this problem, I said NO! just because one person is effected why spoil it for everyone else.

[Candybeatdiscos]

Can you die of an epilectic fit?

[wensleydale]

if you choke on your tongue, yes you can.

[CRAZY K]

Im not sure what Rice would be asking people--have you ever suffered from
the following--XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ETC.

Its not a Life Insurance application---its commonsense---aaah--that might be the problem :sad:

CRAZY K

[Have a disco]

more to the point could someone claim off our PLI for causing them an epileptic fit by not having warning signs up???????????????:lightning

[Candybeatdiscos]

that was my thoughts

[Corabar Entertainment]

more to the point could someone claim off our PLI for causing them an epileptic fit by not having warning signs up???????????????:lightningPossibly - exactly the reason why we have a disclaimer in our contract making it the responsibility of the person booking us to tell us if we shouldn't use something.

[BeerFunk]

Possibly - exactly the reason why we have a disclaimer in our contract making it the responsibility of the person booking us to tell us if we shouldn't use something.
Hmmm.. not so sure that would hold if it went to court. How can the client know if any of the guests have epilepsy? What would happen if someone was there uninvited (maybe slipped in from the public bar, if applicable)? I would imagine the only sure-fire way to cover yourself is to put warnings up on every entrance.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Hmmm.. not so sure that would hold if it went to court. How can the client know if any of the guests have epilepsy? What would happen if someone was there uninvited (maybe slipped in from the public bar, if applicable)? I would imagine the only sure-fire way to cover yourself is to put warnings up on every entrance.

Yup....

Did you know Angela is a solicitor? :omg: :)

[Paul James Promotions]

I will always use warning signs when using strobes.

[BeerFunk]

Yup....

Did you know Angela is a solicitor? :omg: :)
Really?! :omg:

Having just educated myself a little more about epilepsy conditions, it seems that people who know they are affected should be responsible. Assuming they have been educated themself, they will know that discos are a risky area, and as such are responsible if they choose to stay. That's how it seems to me.

Also, if strobing does occur, you are advised to look away and cover one eye (easier said than done when the guitar solo at the end of Rockin' All Over The World is on! :teeth: :cool: )

[theoloyla]

[QUOTE=BeerFunk]Really?! :omg:

Having just educated myself a little more about epilepsy conditions, it seems that people who know they are affected should be responsible. Assuming they have been educated themself, they will know that discos are a risky area, and as such are responsible if they choose to stay. That's how it seems to me.

Exactly the point I was making. Any epileptic who takes a job as a roadie for a disco is pushing his luck and probably behaving irresponsibly.
I have also done gigs where I have been asked to turn off or adjust lights for the health or comfort of the audience. Also some venues dont or cannot allow smoke machines. Some people request no smoking for medical/comfort reasons of particular guests at a function. Others request lower volume levels. At a deaf club I was once asked to turn the bass up full and play as loudly as possible. If it is a private function and there is an epileptic there then we should respond to those requests to refuse to do so would be stupid. If you are working in a public bar or club and an epileptic chooses to come in then he is being foolhardy - although I have known people do it.

[Corabar Steve]

Toooo orangey for Badgers.....
It's just for me & my dog :teeth:


The bulk of disco lights (& indeed strobes, if set at the right speed) will not affect most epileptics even photo sensative ones. There are however other factors that can set them off, it may or may not have been the lights that did it. None of you have taken this into account.

[musicinmotiondi]

....But you've also got disability discrimination legislation, as well as H&S legislation.

Many epileptics go years without a seizure (once they get the medication balance right).

I have known a few epileptics who don't disclose the fact - mainly because they couldn't get a job if they did.

How long have you known him Matt?

The DVLA allows epileptic sufferers to hold driving licences, providing they go 2 years (I believe it's 2 years, but I stand to be corrected on that one) without a seizure. Does he drive for you Matt? If so, that's a pretty good indication that the epilepsy is pretty much under control (or has been until last night.... it may be that they will need to 'tweak' the medication balance after that)



Well said Angela.

I am diabetic and people whom discriminate against others get right up my nose.

Just because they think they are perfect and believe me nobody else does

[Corabar Entertainment]

As Steve has suggested, when talking about disco lights, you are only talking about 1 particular form of epilepsy - there are many different types, most of which will not be affected by general disco lights. 'Strobe' lights can trigger epilepsy in people who have never had a fit, and there are rules & regs about the speed at which strobing can be used. Adhering to these guidelines eliminates 95% of attacks from susceptable people. Not using strobe lights at all is even better!!!! (...and we don't)

On the point of whether or not it the disclaimer would stand up in court - you cannot disclaim your obligations and always have to prove that you have acted with reasonable care. The courts will always decide on the particular facts in front of them. However, it is not practical for you to ask each and every person who walks in the room (what are you going to do, put someone on the door and get each and every one of them to sign a form before they come in?), but by inserting something in your contract to make the person aware of the situation and making it their obligation, you are at the very least dissapating your liability - ie, they have agreed to take responsibility for their guests.

EG-If it is a 'public' event run by a hotel, your client is the hotel and the onus to put up waring signs etc becomes their responsibility.

Just also to clarify Darren's point - up until 2 years ago when I had to leave work following an accident, I was a property lawyer - so I don't profess to be an expert in other areas!!!!!!!!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

so I don't profess to be an expert in other areas!!!!!!!!

Yes you do! :teeth:

[musicinmotiondi]

Yes you do! :teeth:


Actually I thought you were a school teacher - as you are good at telling the kids off :teeth: :teeth: :teeth: :teeth:

[Corabar Entertainment]

LOL! Actually, I did consider that for a while, but I decided I wasn't patient enough :omg:

[Digitalsounds]

Right,

As a former epileptic, some many years ago and my sister is very epileptic i find some people attitudes towards this condition almost racisit.

firstly as i think angela stated people can go for many years without having a siezer (NOT A FITT) they may never have suffered from one prior it may not even be true epilepsy.

There are many different forms of epilepsy that can usually be controlled but drugs.

It is a common misunderstanding that Seizers are caused by flashing lights or strobes infact there are only a few forms of epilepsy that are caused by this seizers can also be caused by many other contributing factors i.e stress, drink. there are also many other forms of epilepsy that are not gran mal. These can be people just difting of some where then not knowing why they are the or how they got there or who people around them are.

It is also against the law to discriminate against any person that carries a disablity as it may not stop them from nder taking there job. Yes it is the responsiblity of the person to notify any employers of such an illness so that they are aware but that employers should not discriminate against it.

Rice in your case you need to find out if your roadie had suffered from prior seizers, you also need to find out if his condition is controlled by drugs and how often he has seizers. Only you then can decide if it does affect him being able to undertake roadie duties for you and you both need to sit down and talk about this case.

[CRAZY K]

I understand where people with epilsepsy are coming from and emphasise---however we have strayed off the point of the thread by Rice--

At the end of the day it could present Rice with a very serious problem for his business and his customers---thats the whole point---nothing else.

As a minimum he should have been advised of this by the Roadie---in my opinion---so he could make his mind up what to do---not have to deal with a disaster at a later stage when its too late---



CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

what kind of "disaster" do you keep talking about?

[Ricesnaps]

Guys, thanks for the advice and the PM's - I spoke to the guy today, who is extremely worried he will loose his job. It is not my intention in any way to get rid of him, just make sure that we are always safe at work - both of us. I'm going for a pint Wednesday to chat and hopefully get some answers that will ensure we both keep working together.

However, just a thought. If he has a Siezure (IF IF IF!!!!) and knowck something that hits a guest, would my PLI pay out? OR should I have employers liability or is there something else I need if an employee harms someone not me?

[BeerFunk]

Right,

As a former epileptic, some many years ago and my sister is very epileptic i find some people attitudes towards this condition almost racisit.
I think you'll find the word 'ignorant' is more suitable than 'racist'. Most people that have commented have only pointed out the potential dangers, should the worst happen.

And quite possibly, in the worst of the worst case scenarios, a claim could go in which isn't covered by PLI, and... well you don't have to be a genius to work out what would happen next :sad:

[Ricesnaps]

I think you'll find the word 'ignorant' is more suitable than 'racist'. Most people that have commented have only pointed out the potential dangers, should the worst happen.

And quite possibly, in the worst of the worst case scenarios, a claim could go in which isn't covered by PLI, and... well you don't have to be a genius to work out what would happen next :sad:
I'm not ignorant or racist and I am not looking if at all possible to get rid or or unemploy my roadie. However, I am poorly informed about the whole situation and need to be better informed. I obviously have my own concerns and worries, which hopefully some other members of this forum will be able to help put to rest or confirm or maybe offer some ideas about potential downfalls and the consiquences!

[wensleydale]

i did think that some of the talk about "disasters" was close to "disablist".
i still can't understand what could possibly cause the major disaster people mentioned.

why don't we lock all epileptics up- that will solve the problem.

i'm colour blind so i suppose i shouldn't be allowed to dj either.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

i did think that some of the talk about "disasters" was close to "disablist".
i still can't understand what could possibly cause the major disaster people mentioned.

why don't we lock all epileptics up- that will solve the problem.

i'm colour blind so i suppose i shouldn't be allowed to dj either.

There's no need for that.

People are just voicing their concerns and trying to sort the situation out.

We are just trying to help Rice do the right thing and lots of people obviously don't know the facts here, which is why it is being discussed.

[BeerFunk]

...which is why I used the word 'ignorant', in it's proper definition (to not know about something)

[BeerFunk]

Also, I might add that if I was in that situation, I would most likely continue to employ the guy.

The odds of something happening (to which I've now been informed, relieving some of my ignorance) must be the same as winning £100000 or more on the lottery, so I'd take the (extremely small) risk

[Danno13]

With regard to the insurance.. just ask him to get PLI in his own name... although you might have to speak to the provider to see if it covers the possible, but extremley unlikley circumstances raised.

[wensleydale]

my comment was obviously tongue in cheek whereas some other people have been talking as if he should be banished to the other side of the moon- it's almost like some Chris Morris satire about epileptics.

I still don't understand what these big disasters are that people talk about involving electricity- if thwey mean about him crashing into the lights, I'm sure more accidents are caused by drunk punters- should we stop drinking at all events??

[Ricesnaps]

my comment was obviously tongue in cheek whereas some other people have been talking as if he should be banished to the other side of the moon- it's almost like some Chris Morris satire about epileptics.

I still don't understand what these big disasters are that people talk about involving electricity- if thwey mean about him crashing into the lights, I'm sure more accidents are caused by drunk punters- should we stop drinking at all events??
I think, certainly from my point of view, I am just wanting to understand the implications. If a drunk punter knocks a stand over and kills someone, it is there fault or a PLI issue. If a fitting roadie does it (anjd usually he's closer to the gear), who takes the wrap and who pays? Not saying it will happen or that I am sacking him because of it, just want to know what the right answer is

[Corabar Steve]

I think the only problem would be in the instance that he had a siezure if he fell against a stand & knocked it over.

When eileptics have siezures they don't tend to flail around like a beetle on it's back, arms & legs everywhere, this is a common misconseption.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Matt

Why not telephone your insurers and explain the situation and ask them what the implications are?

Only you and the insurers know the specific clauses in your policy!

[theoloyla]

Lots of companies employ people with all sorts of illnesses and disabilities. In fact the law encourages them to do so. Public Liability Insurance covers the employer against accidents to the public caused by the company and/or their employees. Provided you can show that you have acted reasonably then you should be covered and as you and others have said that is why you need to have your chat tomorrow with your roadie to assess the risk and to decide upon any action you both need to take (if any). It may seem a little pedantic but I suggest you make some notes at the time and summarise your discussion in writing.
In the past SEDA has had Red Cross and St John's Ambulance along to meetings and run first aid courses. Anyone can go to their local Red Cross centre and find out about taking a first aid course. I am a qualified first aider and it is worth doing. After all you never know when you may need it.

[BeerFunk]

Some good advice there, particulary about contacting your insurer. I think I've said this before, but you really have to remember insurance companies will do anything to escape paying out - particularly if it is to the order of £1m or more.

[CRAZY K]

To answer two technical points-=

1. Yes you need Employers Liability Insurance unless your roadie is a self employed independent Contractor working under a contract for services for which you have written evidence-- wouldnt go down that route!!!!

OR is immediate Family OR a Partner ( in the business sense )

2,. Roadie having own PLI is a waste of time unless he is self employed independent Contractor working under a contract for services --see 1 above--which I suggest is a no no.

Also remember if anything happens to your "employee" you may be legally liable personally --people must get out of the habit of thinking that just because a roadie is a part timer and lugs a few speakers and lights around on a Saturday night he doesnt count legally--just see what happens if theres an accident!

No win-no fee Solicitors here we come :sad:

CRAZY K

[A-L_Vibez]

Thing is anyone can have a heart attack , stroke, fainting fit etc. The important thing is which nobody has mentioned is that all the medical advice that I know of advises epilectics to avoid bright flashing lights as they can trigger a fit; so a disco environment is not really the best place for him or anyone elso who suffers with this illness.

not all epileptics are light sensative!

[Ricesnaps]

To answer two technical points-=

1. Yes you need Employers Liability Insurance unless your roadie is a self employed independent Contractor working under a contract for services for which you have written evidence-- wouldnt go down that route!!!!

OR is immediate Family OR a Partner ( in the business sense )

2,. Roadie having own PLI is a waste of time unless he is self employed independent Contractor working under a contract for services --see 1 above--which I suggest is a no no.

Also remember if anything happens to your "employee" you may be legally liable personally --people must get out of the habit of thinking that just because a roadie is a part timer and lugs a few speakers and lights around on a Saturday night he doesnt count legally--just see what happens if theres an accident!

No win-no fee Solicitors here we come :sad:

CRAZY K
OK then, what do I need to do to get employer liability and what exactly will it give me - I mean will it mean that he is covered by my £10m PLI or will it effectively give him his own cover through the policy I take out? Basically, what do I need to ensure that my roadie is covered if he has an accident of his own or if he causes injury to a guest with my equipment. Considering that I already have PLI from the MU

[CRAZY K]

Simple--when you insure Employers Liability you will be covered under the compulsory requirement for Employers Liability Insurance as you " employ" someone part time. Covered for legal liability arising out of his employment by you. Accidents, injury etc.

However if roadie has an accident which is not your legal reponsibility then he is not covered by anyone and needs his own cover--- if he is bothered!

PLI is not affected normally---unless you have to declare wages paid to staff OR you have declared yourself as a SOLE trader i.e. working on your own--

You should be covered for any accidents or injury caused to the Public by either of you.

Speak to Musicguard or whoever does your PLI and discuss fully, you would be wise to mention the disability upfront---theres no point arguing about it afterwards when its too late--get something in writing as well.

Employers Liability might be expensive :sad: ---offset it against tax :teeth:

Cheers

CRAZY K

[Corabar Entertainment]

Employers Liability Insurance is compulsory if you have an employee. However, whether someone is treated as an employee or a self-employed sub-contractor can be a little bit of a grey area (the fact that you don't do their tax is not enough).

For those of you who are not sure about ELI, this might help:-
http://www.biba.org.uk/consumer/consumernotes/notes/hse40.pdf

[Corabar Steve]

http://www.epilepsy.ie/Ease/servlet/DynamicPageBuild;jsessionid=tv6legk553?siteID=1909&categoryID=62
http://www.epilepsynse.org.uk/
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/

[Ricesnaps]

Right then, I have some insurance answers. They may well be things you all know anyway, but maybe not and it's always good to share!

Called Musicians Union who put me onto the people who provide there cover, a company called "Hencilla".

1. The PLI provided that I have only covers injury to the public caused by me and I got the impression that this is fairly standard on all policies
2. I don't need employers liability if my roadie is effectively "self employed" but as with point 1, he would need his own PLI cover
3. Employers liability insurance is not available (from this company) without also purchasing PLI from them.
4. Should I purchase the ELI and PLI from these guys, the PLI cover would be for me and anyone working for me.

So to sum up, the cost for £5m PLI and £10m ELI is £361

If anyone has any thoughts or know where I can get a cheaper quote....

To add to that, the Epilepsy would have no effect on the above policy at all.

No honestly, and I am sure many of you will choose not to say on here pubilcally, but how many of you have people you pay to help and also have ELI???

[CRAZY K]

RICE, GET A SECOND OPINION

1.I believe you need ELI cover--

2. My PLI covers me and named associates for PLI

Maybe try---

Music Guard
E and L
NADJ

CRAZY K

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

As Alan says you can add on associates for PLI with Musicguard - I think the last time I did, it was £36 per person for £1m of cover.

Try http://www.torribles.co.uk/ Rice, they might be able to help.

[Ricesnaps]

As Alan says you can add on associates for PLI with Musicguard - I think the last time I did, it was £36 per person for £1m of cover.

Try http://www.torribles.co.uk/ Rice, they might be able to help.
Long story for this time of night, but to get the amount of cover I would like for me and my roadie, I think the figures you suggest are going to work out more. I made a decision to move away from musicguard for the PLI because they weren't the cheapest around and unfortunately I didn;t like what I found with ELI, NADJ are the only ones I haven't looked at, but I have it under good authority that I need ELI as well as PLI and I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet.

On other things, I have now had a good chat with my roadie. My wife thinks I'm off my rocker to keep him on, but opinions would be apreciated.

He tells me that he has had 2 other "fits" this year, both petit ones and that Staurday was the first Grand he has had since his 20's. He says he has a good idea that he's heading for one - it's usually stress related, it's not photo triggered and they have always happened very late at night - after 12. He has medication, which he takes twice a day. He has also promised to not come out with me if he feels there is the slightest chance he may have another one, or he see's the signs.

Am I right to keep him on?

[Corabar Steve]

I hope my links helped dispell any myths about epilepsy that anyone had heard

[Corabar Entertainment]

Am I right to keep him on?Only you can answer that one Matt, but given what you've said, I probably would as well.

[BeerFunk]

I would keep him on too, imagine what it would do to the guy's confidence if you fired him? And yes, I know that you can't put him before yourself, but sometimes it's just 'right' to follow your heart instead of your head. That is easier said when not in hindsight though...

[theoloyla]

Simple.





Yes.

[CRAZY K]

If you do--make sure your all Insurance is definitely valid---get it in writing first.

If I had a pound for every time someone said this when it all goes pear shaped

BUT someone said it would be ok :sad:

Ah!!!! sorry but either--

1.That was wrong
2. The person doesnt work here now
3. The person acted outside their authority if they said that
4.We are retraining that person

There are loads more!

Just get in writing then you can relax.

CRAZY K