2nd hand QSC or New Behringer?

[DJay]

Folks,

I went to hear some Wharefdale EVPX15 and LX15 speakers today. The EVPX sounded good and the LX were very good! Thus on Monday I think I'll order 2 x LX15 tops and 2 x LX15B subs with a pole to house the top and sub. £830 for all 4 speakers is great!

Whilst I was at the shop, the guy offered me 2 x QSC 2450 amps. Both were in good condition (no scratches at all). He offered them with 3 months warrenty each. Now I know they are circa £550 each. He offered them both for £600 in total.

Question is, should I buy two of them second hand (used by a bar for 15 months) or should I buy 2 new Behringer Europower 2500 amps?

I know QSC are much better and to an extent Behringer have tried to copy the QSC, it's just the 2nd hand think I'm concerned about.

Be good to get your thoughts :)

Jay

[A1DL]

Folks,

I went to hear some Wharefdale EVPX15 and LX15 speakers today. The EVPX sounded good and the LX were very good! Thus on Monday I think I'll order 2 x LX15 tops and 2 x LX15B subs with a pole to house the top and sub. £830 for all 4 speakers is great!

Whilst I was at the shop, the guy offered me 2 x QSC 2450 amps. Both were in good condition (no scratches at all). He offered them with 3 months warrenty each. Now I know they are circa £550 each. He offered them both for £600 in total.

Question is, should I buy two of them second hand (used by a bar for 15 months) or should I buy 2 new Behringer Europower 2500 amps?

I know QSC are much better and to an extent Behringer have tried to copy the QSC, it's just the 2nd hand think I'm concerned about.

Be good to get your thoughts :)

Jay

Jay

This is an easy one - without any doubt buy the secondhand QSCs
The RMX2450 is a lovely sounding amp, QSC are a pro audio manufacturer up there with the likes of Crown, LabGruppen, Void, etc.

Also Jay, when buying pro audio second hand, provided you look after it (flightcase, etc) it will hold it's value and should you want to sell these amps in a couple of years time, you'll probably get similar to what you paid today.

Bellringer are NOT a professional audio manufacturer, in this industry there's no such thing as a free lunch, and their prices are such for a reason. Do a bit of googling of the pro audio forums and you'll see the general opinion of Bellringer, along the lines of S*?!*lab, etc.

Get those QSCs before they go matey

HTH

Tony :beer:

[A1DL]

That's a good deal you've been offered Jay, there's one on ebay at the moment, £255.00 on 6 bids, and still 4 days to go.

Remember when buying 2nd hand to take some cabs along and crank it up before you part with your hard earned. :teeth:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Professional-Amplifier-QSC-Audio-RMX-2450_W0QQitemZ320033942218QQihZ011QQcategoryZ23794 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[DJay]

Thanls for the tip.

When I was at the shop, I tested the amp with my cd player & mixer hooked up to their Wharfedale EVPX15 tops and EVPX15B Subs.... Sounded nice... Much nicer than when I heard the same speakers with a Peavey 2600 amp.

Do these amps ever go wrong? If/when they do, is it big bucks to have them fixed?

Jay

[Thames Valley Discos]

QSC RMX 2450 all day long. Very reliable, and if you buy 2, you always have a backup.They are heavier than the behringer even though they look identical. That is an indication to you that the QSC has something different.A much better power supply for one

[LastMinuteDJs.net]

Tell you what - take them all. You can keep the behringer and i'll take the QSCs...

[Thames Valley Discos]

Tell you what - take them all. You can keep the behringer and i'll take the QSCs...
second that

[symo]

I own an EP2500 and its great. I bought it from New at Saphires/decks and I have done one outdoor event and three indoors. These were free events as I have only just aquired the B1800X subs. I have no complaints about the 2500 as it has been faultless. It is a copy of the QSC (I think) and it shows as it has a weighty feel not normally associated with Behringer. I bought it new so have the piece of mind to get it replaced, but if I were offered what you were it would be a no-brainer; go for the 2nd hand units. At the moment I am finishing off assembling the mobile rig and the behringer was a good place to start. I have the CX3400 on order as my cross over and am wondering which amp to get to partner the B1800X's. Thomann's TA1450 looks good but I may go for another EP2500.

Perhaps I have the only good behringer stuff in existence?????

[Ricesnaps]

Bellringer are NOT a professional audio manufacturer, in this industry there's no such thing as a free lunch, and their prices are such for a reason. Do a bit of googling of the pro audio forums and you'll see the general opinion of Bellringer, along the lines of S*?!*lab, etc.
What hugely unfair and unrepresentative comment to make - wash your mouth out with soap and water.

Behringer are fantastic. Please do have a look around for comments, particular on this forum as there has been a lot of good things said about the EP2500. Mine is coming up to 2 years old and sound nothing short of exceptional. Never compains week in week out, has all the power I need and when paired with my Martin Mach set up even has people commenting on how good the sound is!

It is also worth noting that actually we are talking different leagues here. How can you compair a QSC with a Behringer? One costs 2 - 3 times the price of the other. If you think an EP2500 should sound like a QSC, then you are having a laugh. But if you have just £200 to spend, this is certainly the place to bring your money.

They call it great value!

[Corabar Entertainment]

...But given the choice that DJay is facing, which would you go for Ricesnaps?

[alexperrins]

IMHO. If it seems to good to be true, you know how the saying goes!

[Corabar Entertainment]

I wouldn't say that £600 was too good to be true - just a very good deal.

They are being offered by a dealer with a 3 month warranty....

[alexperrins]

I guess! It's really difficult to say though without actually knowing what the amp has taken over the past 15 months without actually being the DJ working with them. I would go with the QSC's though personally. Still a lot of cash to spend on a 2nd hand item - very hard to call.

[Ricesnaps]

...But given the choice that DJay is facing, which would you go for Ricesnaps?
Sorry, I was just defending Behringer!

Not sure to be honest. I have used QSC a long while ago and remember them being a great amp. You see, this is where some group tests or long term tests would have been really useful.

The honest answer is how much better do the QSC sound over the Behringer? Does the difference justify the extra price - although I am guessing from the quoted prices that the difference isn't huge. It really also does have a lot to do with the rest of your set up. There would be absolutely no point shelling out for QSC amp only to feed them with a Soundlab mixer and a skytec deck. Or the other way around, waste of money if you don't have the speakers to make it sing. Of course there is the argument that you are going to upgrade in the future - which is cool.

What would I do? Well, I have no problem buying 2nd hand - my M-Flex were second user (just) and they sing! However, I haven't heard them fed with anything other than my EP2500, but I have absolutely no complaints. The Behringer has always been a workhorse. I guess I would probably stick with the Behringer and spend the money I saved on better speakers.

That said, if the performance improvement justifies it, then go with the QSC!

[A1DL]

Sorry, I was just defending Behringer!

Not sure to be honest. I have used QSC a long while ago and remember them being a great amp. You see, this is where some group tests or long term tests would have been really useful.

The honest answer is how much better do the QSC sound over the Behringer? Does the difference justify the extra price - although I am guessing from the quoted prices that the difference isn't huge. It really also does have a lot to do with the rest of your set up. There would be absolutely no point shelling out for QSC amp only to feed them with a Soundlab mixer and a skytec deck. Or the other way around, waste of money if you don't have the speakers to make it sing. Of course there is the argument that you are going to upgrade in the future - which is cool.


perhaps we should arrange an MDD soundclash, ey Ricey? :D

[Ricesnaps]

perhaps we should arrange an MDD soundclash, ey Ricey? :D
Bloody great idea - you see my point is about value for money. A QSC might be a lovely sounding amp, but is it say £400 more lovely?

Obviously the fairest thing to do would be to arrange for a pair of 250 watt skyec cabs (floor mounted obviously) and a 2nd hand soundlab cd / mixer set up to be use as source and speakers for the trial!

Anyone got a one of those new Bose set ups and would like to come and play?

[Paul James Promotions]

You won't find much better than the 2450 in that price range. As long as you don't run them into 2 ohms stereo or 4 ohms bridged, they just keep going.

[Have a disco]

Point to make in favour of both

QSC = + excellent reputation in the UK & US will take a pounding regularly good sounding
- Too expensive to validate buying for short use like small disco's but for larger more busier outfits perfect

Behringer = + Best selling Pro audio equipment in Germany for last 10 years due to its reliability sound wise one of the best within its speaker range, cheaper and lighter than most
- None as yet not worth buying 2nd hand maybe

[DJay]

Hi folks!

Been talking behind my back about my kit eh!!!

OK, Here is what I have been offered:

Wharfedale LX15 mid/high speakers x 2
Wharfedale LX15b bass speakers x 2
QSC RMX 2450 amplifier (2nd hand) x 2
Professional 6m Proel Speakon - speakon speaker cables x 4
Professional Proel Balanced XLR - XLR Signal cables x 2
Wharefdale speaker poles x 2
Professional Proel Jack - Jack link signal cables

£1500 all in!

Shall I place the order?????

Jay

[Thames Valley Discos]

Dont sound dear to me

[Sam]

go for it....

[Ricesnaps]

Hi folks!

Been talking behind my back about my kit eh!!!

OK, Here is what I have been offered:

Wharfedale LX15 mid/high speakers x 2
Wharfedale LX15b bass speakers x 2
QSC RMX 2450 amplifier (2nd hand) x 2
Professional 6m Proel Speakon - speakon speaker cables x 4
Professional Proel Balanced XLR - XLR Signal cables x 2
Wharefdale speaker poles x 2
Professional Proel Jack - Jack link signal cables

£1500 all in!

Shall I place the order?????

Jay

Surely you'll need an active crossover with that little lot if you want to use both amps?

[A1DL]

Surely you'll need an active crossover with that little lot if you want to use both amps?

Correct, have a look at the dbx 223XL - good quality 1U analogue crossover that would do the job nicely without breaking the bank.

[DJay]

Hi folks,

When the chap in the shop demoed the speakers and amps, he connected the amps together and cables from the top amp going to the tops and cables from the bottom amd going to the subs. Does that help?

Here is a link to the speakers: http://www.wharfedalepro.com/LX%20BROCHURE_b.pdf

[Ricesnaps]

Hi folks,

When the chap in the shop demoed the speakers and amps, he connected the amps together and cables from the top amp going to the tops and cables from the bottom amd going to the subs. Does that help?

Here is a link to the speakers: http://www.wharfedalepro.com/LX%20BROCHURE_b.pdf
I'm no expert, but all the biamp set ups I've ever seen or worked with have used an active crossover - Maybe the QSC amps have something clever that makes them do it, but I would have thought that the control and sound would be far superior using a crossover wouldn't it?

[A1DL]

Hi folks,

When the chap in the shop demoed the speakers and amps, he connected the amps together and cables from the top amp going to the tops and cables from the bottom amd going to the subs. Does that help?

Here is a link to the speakers: http://www.wharfedalepro.com/LX%20BROCHURE_b.pdf

he used the crossover in the cabs, did he use one or two QSCs to power the four cabs?

as Matt rightly points out, system will sound much better and be much more efficient running with an active x-over

HTH

[DJay]

I Have just found out that the manufacture date one the two 2nd hand QSC 2450 amps (£600 for both) is June 2002. That makes both amps just over 4 years old. I reailse these amps are build to go for 10 years or more. But is 4 years old and £600 a pair too much?

I just had this comment from the shop:
"With regard the amps date of manufacture is June 02 and August 02. I appreciate this makes the units older than I originally thought and for this reason understand if you would feel more comfortable looking at an alternative, "

Any thoughts?

[Thames Valley Discos]

offer him £500, you will pay that for one new. Or if you only want one, buy new.
just because manufacture date is 02, they may well have been in stock for some time when built before originally being sold.

[DJay]

Despite the amps being over 4 years old, he won't move on price!! I think £600 for 2 qsc 2450 amps over 4 years old is too much!

[Thames Valley Discos]

not really, they will cost best part of that for one. they are electronics, they work or they dont

[DJay]

QSC 2450 - £440 at Thomann! I am still seriously considering buying 2 x Behringer 2500's... £430 from up the road.... I am extremly worried about how I would afford to get these QSC's fixed if anything did go wrong... I don't think I'd be so worried if they were much newer...

[Thames Valley Discos]

i have 3 amps, two qsc 2450,s that i always use and the behringer as backup. i love the qsc, good power, good sound.

[DJay]

Is you Behringer a 2500? If so, how does it compre with the QSC? Does it still power your speakers?

[Ricesnaps]

Is you Behringer a 2500? If so, how does it compre with the QSC? Does it still power your speakers?
If it helps, as I said, I have the EP2500 running a pair of Mach subs and a pair of Mach M-flex. NEVER had the EP2500 running much more than 50% and it handles 200 - 300 capacity venues with ease!

Am a little confused why you are buying two? Is one a back up? If you're planning to run subs off one and the tops off the other you will need an active crossover

[Thames Valley Discos]

YEAH THE BEHRINGER IS FINE, lighter than the qsc, a little less power but very little.
buy what you are happy with. qsc without doubt the better amp, but the behringer will serve you well. i have never run mine for long as its mainly a backup.

[DJay]

Hi Ricesnaps,

I am Mr. Precautious! I will be using one amp to run a pair of subs (700 watts RMS each - 1400 watts) and one to run the tops (400 watts RMS each - 800 watts).

In the event that anyone of the two amps fail, I can probably get away with using 1 amp until the night is over... I think that's sensible?

I really want to keep the spend as close to £500 as possible and try to get amps that would be able to cope with the 4 speakers incase 1 amp broke.

[Thames Valley Discos]

Hi Ricesnaps,

I am Mr. Precautious! I will be using one amp to run a pair of subs (700 watts RMS each - 1400 watts) and one to run the tops (400 watts RMS each - 800 watts).

In the event that anyone of the two amps fail, I can probably get away with using 1 amp until the night is over... I think that's sensible?

I really want to keep the spend as close to £500 as possible and try to get amps that would be able to cope with the 4 speakers incase 1 amp broke.
700w rms, you need to be looking at a 1000w plus rms amp really.
The qsc and behringer will be at full power .

[DJay]

The subs are 4 ohms so are suited to the amps I am looking at. The tops are also 4 ohms. I think the Behinrger does 750 watts per channel at 4ohms (as does the QSC).

[Thames Valley Discos]

will be ok for the tops, but the bins at 700W rms will be pushing the amps IMOHO
Ask any amp manufacturer, they will say the RMS of the amp should be atleast 1.5 x that of the speakers RMS. You may have amp clipping

When you're matching a Power Amp to a PA Speaker, a good rule of thumb is to pick an amplifier that can deliver power equal to twice the speaker's continuous IEC power rating. This means that a speaker with a "nominal impedance" of 8 Ohms and a continuous IEC power rating of 350 watts will require an amplifier that can produce 700 watts into an 8 Ohm load. For a stereo pair of speakers, the amplifier should be rated at 700 watts per channel into 8 Ohms. A quality professional loudspeaker can handle transient peaks in excess of its rated power if the amplifier can deliver those peaks without distortion.

[DJay]

Does that mean (budget in mind) that I have to go for something like a Miltec (which is a solid amp) 770 watts per channel, or further still a KAM KRX 2000 at 1000 watts per channel (although I'm not too sure about KAM), or a Carlsbro power 2000????

Again, I'm being a pain, but better to get it right the first time than to make a mess and have to fork out more money...

I'm also a little worried that the shop selling the QSC's did not mention that the 2450's would not be sufficient.

[Thames Valley Discos]

Depends how hard you will be pushing the speakers. I would say you need atleast 1.5x the amp rms to the speaker rms.
If i run my 500w rms speakers (4 ohm) with the qsc i get no clipping, even with gain right up. If i run my 8 ohm 350w rms speakers, i can get the qsc to clip at 2/3 max gain.
Your tops should be ok with either amp.

[DJay]

Any advice on the amps that would be suitable for my set-up?

[Thames Valley Discos]

Another factor is, the bigger the amp, the more current it draws. The qsc at 1/8th power(full to me and you) draws 2 amp into 8 ohm,
If you end up clipping the amp continuous, the current goes up to over 5 amps

[Thames Valley Discos]

qsc rmx 2450/behringer 2500 and KAM KRX2000 Amplifier . Kam a bit lower end, but you get a years warranty.