Need a Disco

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

I'm sorry chaps but I have to take exception with you. There is a world of difference between a fair contract and the often officious nonsense that is being passed off as a contract by many. People respond positively to not having a 'contract' when it is pointed out that the alternative is usually something that ties them into some fairly unreasonable clauses. Hence, my customers always get a confirmation email (or a letter if they prefer) that contains addresses, phone no's etc., but no contract to sign.

On the rare occasion that anyone mentions a contract, I strongly advise customers not to enter into one unless they have considered the fairness and legality of the content. Most DJ contracts I've read through tend to quote force majeur, unforeseen circumstances or even vehicle breakdown as reasons not to turn up and they are invariably heavily stacked in favour of the DJ). So they are not really worth the paper they are written on and even worse, a customer is often being asked to sign away statutory rights. Some of the contracts that, for example, hold the customer liable for damage to equipment by guests or for identifying people with epilepsy (yep, that's a real one) are barely enforceable. There is an amount of amateur 'legalese' on show that stems from years of cut and paste from one website to another! I read one that says if the company (that'll usually mean one man sole trader then) cancels, any deposit paid is not refundable!! That one would crumble under the lightest of legal scrutiny!

The flexible cancellation on offer is also well received. If something unforeseen happens and they need to cancel, why should my customer be penalised and, if they want to cut costs or indeed can find someone better - what's the issue with that?

To demonstrate, try this: Google "DJ Terms and Conditions" or "DJ Contract" and see how many actually offer the customer much protection other than 'if we don't turn up we'll try to get a replacement, if we can't we'll give you your money back'. Some don't even stretch to that. So, it's a bit rich talking about giving clients a 'secure feeling'.

A decent contract is mutually beneficial to both parties so there's no reason at all not to have one and if nothing else, it makes you look professional. The only time I ever hear about guys who don't have contracts to sign it's usually part of a frantic phone call to see if I can cover a no show or a cancellation.



I'm struggling to see how clauses about breakages or epilepsy are unenforceable.

My t&c's state that in the case of theft or breakages due to the client or any of their guests, the client is responsible for any repair or replacement costs. How is that unenforcible? If you hired a car, didn't take out insurance and it broke, you can bet you'd be paying for the repairs. Thankfully I've never had to rely on this but a few weeks back a bunch of brats wouldn't keep away from my gear. I spoke to their parents and they did nothing. I then had a quick word with the client who booked me mentioning that clause and a brief insight into the kind of money was in each bit of gear and they were quickly put on a short leash...

I also mention that there will be the use of lighting and lasers which may affect people with pre-existing medical conditions. All that does is cover my back in case anything hppens to anyone. It's there in black and white that they were made aware of the possible issues.

[funkymook]

Can't find any reference to the no deposit/no contract on your site - so do you use it as a selling point when they contact you, perhaps a bit of scaremongering about other DJ's contracts?

[paulg]

Can't find any reference to the no deposit/no contract on your site - so do you use it as a selling point when they contact you, perhaps a bit of scaremongering about other DJ's contracts?

When all is said and done, the law sets out what is a fair contract for both parties.

Fair to the DJ? No, not at all but it's my risk. I wish I could make it fairer for the customer because for them, its still Hobsons choice - between no obligation or being tied in to a 'contract' that invariably doesn't address their main fears either (e.g. a no show!). Both are little more than good intentions and promises.

A customer makes a choice based on part logical assessment and part intuition and they are unlikely to change it without good reason so contractual reinforcement isn't necessary.

I have a second wedding dj website under development that does refer specifically to no 'contracts' but it doesn't sacremonger. I suppose it sows the seed of doubt but I won't have to rely on negatives.

[funkymook]

When all is said and done, the law sets out what is a fair contract for both parties.

Fair to the DJ? No, not at all but it's my risk. I wish I could make it fairer for the customer because for them, its still Hobsons choice - between no obligation or being tied in to a 'contract' that invariably doesn't address their main fears either (e.g. a no show!). Both are little more than good intentions and promises.

A customer makes a choice based on part logical assessment and part intuition and they are unlikely to change it without good reason so contractual reinforcement isn't necessary.

I have a second wedding dj website under development that does refer specifically to no 'contracts' but it doesn't sacremonger. I suppose it sows the seed of doubt but I won't have to rely on negatives.

So you confirm dates, times, venue and what you're supplying (in the case of extras like moonlighting etc) in writing (or email) with the client - you just don't take any payment upfront or have any T&C's - is that about right?

Is it done on a form, as in a standard format, you use every time?

[paulg]

A decent contract is mutually beneficial to both parties so there's no reason at all not to have one and if nothing else, it makes you look professional. The only time I ever hear about guys who don't have contracts to sign it's usually part of a frantic phone call to see if I can cover a no show or a cancellation.



I'm struggling to see how clauses about breakages or epilepsy are unenforceable.

My t&c's state that in the case of theft or breakages due to the client or any of their guests, the client is responsible for any repair or replacement costs. How is that unenforcible? If you hired a car, didn't take out insurance and it broke, you can bet you'd be paying for the repairs. Thankfully I've never had to rely on this but a few weeks back a bunch of brats wouldn't keep away from my gear. I spoke to their parents and they did nothing. I then had a quick word with the client who booked me mentioning that clause and a brief insight into the kind of money was in each bit of gear and they were quickly put on a short leash...

I also mention that there will be the use of lighting and lasers which may affect people with pre-existing medical conditions. All that does is cover my back in case anything hppens to anyone. It's there in black and white that they were made aware of the possible issues.

I'm about to tuck into a couple of bottles of Trappistes Rochefort 10. Keyboard will become blurred and words slurred so, last one tonight. It's been a lively debate. Different opinions but I guess it's all about doing what you think is best.

For breakages you should have insurance. You can't pass liability on to your customer for something you could reasonably foresee and take mitigation. If someone knocked over a speaker, the person who booked you is no more liable for the damage than I am. You can't invent your own law via a hastily written T&C. You would first have to prove that the individual who did knock it over did so with malice or intent and was at fault. Then you would have to recover costs via a court. You would be able to do that without a contract but it would be time consuming and expensive. It doesn't matter what your T&C's say, if it's unreasonable then its not enforceable. Tip: Do you have equipment insurance? If not, get some. Problem solved, one less T&C.

Now, if I had booked you and you wanted to blame me for someone elses unruly children, I would be non too happy. Frankly, I would interpret what you suggested as a bit threatening against me and my guests. If you have kit where children could possibly damage it (and more importantly themselves), the answer is to shift it, quickly.

For medical conditions, you have again shouldered your customer with a liability that is yours to determine and mitigate. How could you possibly expect your customer to know about every guests' medical history. Should they issue health screening forms with party invites? You are the one in control of the lighting and the duty of care lies firmly with you (and possibly the venue). If in doubt, don't use it. In reality, people with medical conditions that may be triggered by lighting will usually make themselves known or won't attend. They know what a disco entails and their health is more of a priority. Making a claim against you would be quite difficult for them to justify. Again, another T&C you could probably dispense with.

Putting something in black and white doesn't cover your back if it's not reasoned and justified. You do not live in your own kingdom!

Another post suggested that unreasonable DJ's T&C's could be used to scaremonger and I think it was a very pertinent point. It made me think, when talking to clients could I suggest ..."did you you know that DJ xx holds you responsible for damage caused by your guests....even young children....normally insurance covers that but it seems like he might not have any..etc etc etc...on the other hand we don't do anything like that, we just want you to relax and enjoy your night". Trust me though, criticising other DJ's is not my way.

T&C's are not the way to protect me or my customers either. It's best to stop problems in the first place.

Funkymook - it's just an enquiry form on my www.ardsleyentertainments.co.uk website.

[funkymook]

Funkymook - it's just an enquiry form on my www.ardsleyentertainments.co.uk website.

Only reason I ask is I wonder what your clients think they have from you? Do they believe they have any legal recourse if you don't turn up? (and advising them you have back-up DJ's etc is also just promises which could turn out to be as empty as any contract).

An initial payment covers me for any preparation expenses I've incurred, usually a good few hours of emailing, phone calls, compiling example music lists, a meeting, sometimes a separate venue visit - I feel perfectly justified in having some payment up front in case of cancellation because I've already earned it before the event. Because money has changed hands an invoice and receipt has also been issued - again I'd be wary myself giving anyone payment without something in writing acknowledging it.

I doubt any of my bookings would've gone wrong if I didn't follow my process and did cash on the night and email confirmations - but personally I hate getting the money in cash at a gig (especially a wedding) and I know for a fact several clients wouldn't have booked me as a cash in hand operator, to them it comes across as untrustworthy, under the tax radar etc. Not suggesting anyone on here is like that of course, that's just the perception a few people have had when I've chatted to them after they'd booked me.

If I was that way inclined that could also be a seed to plant in the minds of prospective clients, 'cash on the night, no signed contract - draw your own conclusions!'. But I prefer to only talk about myself and their event, I think it creates a better impression.

[JAMdisco]

Sorry Paul but you really do surprise me (by the way, maybe we should start a new thread as this has very little to do with NaD).

I'm sure most people have equipment insurance and PLI these days but you seem to forget the majority of incidents happen when people are inebriated - an unfortunate side of our job. You must have witnessed p***ed up people staggering around and if they knock a speaker over it probably wasn't intentional so I think there is no reason why this shouldn't be covered by the client.

Also, you say that if something can be knocked/damaged by children or harm themselves to move it!!! Not always possible, where would you move a speaker or DJ booth if the set-up area was a small area on the same level or next to the dance floor (a lot of venues are like this). Great if you have a stage / raised area but not possible in most venues.

I have only ever done one disco without a contract as it was a next day booking for his daughters 13th birthday (original DJ cancelled - you're not far from me are you ) and it was before the days of echo-sign so I told him the full amount would be payable at the start of the disco and he needed to sign the contract at the same time. Luckily it all worked out ok and he was more than happy to sign (and yes, he read it all while I started setting up).

I have never had a client not sign a contract due to any specific clause as I tell them, it's to protect themselves as much as myself / business.

Let's say you turn up to an unknown venue and the access points are up a narrow fire escape (yes, I've had this), through a narrow door, down a corridor up another 2 flights of stairs then across a large hall right in the corner... then you find that the power points are at the other side of the room? If this had not been mentioned and you were caught in a traffic jam on the way (unforeseen) and you started an hour late - what then? My contract covers me for all this as why should I take a cut in wages for issues beyond my control. It's still a full nights work.

There's so many things that can happen at an event and 99% of the time things run without a hitch, but there's always that one gig where everything goes wrong (we've probably all been there)

Every other professional industry (especially if providing a service) have terms & conditions, why should we be any different?

As for no deposit or non-refundable booking fee - try and book a holiday and say you'll pay for the flight when you're sat on the plane? I think you would get some funny looks...

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Sorry Paul but you really do surprise me (by the way, maybe we should start a new thread as this has very little to do with NaD).

I'm sure most people have equipment insurance and PLI these days but you seem to forget the majority of incidents happen when people are inebriated - an unfortunate side of our job. You must have witnessed p***ed up people staggering around and if they knock a speaker over it probably wasn't intentional so I think there is no reason why this shouldn't be covered by the client.

Also, you say that if something can be knocked/damaged by children or harm themselves to move it!!! Not always possible, where would you move a speaker or DJ booth if the set-up area was a small area on the same level or next to the dance floor (a lot of venues are like this). Great if you have a stage / raised area but not possible in most venues.

I have only ever done one disco without a contract as it was a next day booking for his daughters 13th birthday (original DJ cancelled - you're not far from me are you ) and it was before the days of echo-sign so I told him the full amount would be payable at the start of the disco and he needed to sign the contract at the same time. Luckily it all worked out ok and he was more than happy to sign (and yes, he read it all while I started setting up).

I have never had a client not sign a contract due to any specific clause as I tell them, it's to protect themselves as much as myself / business.

Let's say you turn up to an unknown venue and the access points are up a narrow fire escape (yes, I've had this), through a narrow door, down a corridor up another 2 flights of stairs then across a large hall right in the corner... then you find that the power points are at the other side of the room? If this had not been mentioned and you were caught in a traffic jam on the way (unforeseen) and you started an hour late - what then? My contract covers me for all this as why should I take a cut in wages for issues beyond my control. It's still a full nights work.

There's so many things that can happen at an event and 99% of the time things run without a hitch, but there's always that one gig where everything goes wrong (we've probably all been there)

Every other professional industry (especially if providing a service) have terms & conditions, why should we be any different?

As for no deposit or non-refundable booking fee - try and book a holiday and say you'll pay for the flight when you're sat on the plane? I think you would get some funny looks...

You've said just about everything I would.

I have insurance but why should I be forced to claim and bump up mine (and other DJs) premiums because some drunk idiot has decided he wanted to fall into my speakers or a parent won't keep their kids under control? At the end of the day, no one has ever had an issue with that clause and if they did, I would refuse the gig as it completely alleviates them and their guests of any liability. What if a massive rammy kicked off and my full rig got done in, am I just supposed to claim / replace it all out of my own pocket?

As for the epilepsy clause. how many gigs, TV shows, films etc... have you been to where you're warning "contains flashing images" or something to that nature? That is the provider covering there back as they have let it be known that potential harm could result in some cases due to their show / performance. This is exactly the same. It's not going to stop people taking epilctic fits but even though I don't use strobes or anything that potentially could set a fit off, I've at least warned the client that the potential is there for something to go wrong.

You seem to be missing the point about the contract being mutually beneficial to both parties. A lack of contract is equally mutually beneficial but in the sense that there's nothing stopping you not turning up or them client ripping you off.

If you have your booking form / confirmation e-mail and use this as proof of how long you've to play for, what services or extras you provide etc... then you do have a contract albeit a basic one.


You're more than entitled to your own opinion and can run your company the way you want but I'd be inclined to assume that the kind of people who would book a DJ on the selling point that he doesn't have a contract probably aren't the kind of gigs or clients that I'd be interested in dealing with.

[Corabar Steve]

I have to say that aside from coming down on the side of those in favour of contracts (& agreeing with them wholeheartedly), I've not read such piffle, popycock, balderdash & flapdoodle on this forum since the days of black & white stripey DJ & the weakest link.

How could anyone feel more secure about booking somebody for an important event without a contract than somebody with one‽

[Vectis]

maybe we should start a new thread as this has very little to do with NaD

Please don't NaD and DJmark are all about professional standards and helping / coercing folks to raise their game, so I'm happy for them to be associated with this debate.