Loudspeaker Management

[WWDJ]

OK, my useful answer is, I think you are being way too fussy. You should be able to eq and position your cabs to sound great in which ever venue you are in. I've used RCF for years and never had this issue.

I really think you are over thinking this.

The fact that you're on a stage doesn't probably help and neither does having one sub next to a wall.

Thanks. My theory, albeit flawed was to use them near the edge of the stage where it is most stable. The centre is a bit bouncy. I spoke to Andy Goodtimes tonight (thanks Andy) and he suggested trying the phasing or perhaps even 1 sub. Previously I was using a single 705 with Mackie SRM450s and although the 902 hasn't got the grunt of the 705 it might be enough. I guess the answer is to take 2 and try and mount them off stage and then turn the second one on if there isn't enough bass with 1.

I really hope I am overthinking it as I really need to just plug and play.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Thanks. My theory, albeit flawed was to use them near the edge of the stage where it is most stable. The centre is a bit bouncy. I spoke to Andy Goodtimes tonight (thanks Andy) and he suggested trying the phasing or perhaps even 1 sub. Previously I was using a single 705 with Mackie SRM450s and although the 902 hasn't got the grunt of the 705 it might be enough. I guess the answer is to take 2 and try and mount them off stage and then turn the second one on if there isn't enough bass with 1.

I really hope I am overthinking it as I really need to just plug and play.

Is it just that venue you have used them in and are basing the sound on or have you used them in different places/venues?

[NKR]

How about placing them side by side in the middle (bass is omnidirectional so they just make posh speaker stands and don't need to be under each cab, just in line with it. Imagine dropping a stone in a puddle, bass does that ripple). You will increase the air movement from the units by effectively doubling them up dead centre. You will find the result quite surprising.

The first time I ever side by sided cabs I was amazed. I did it with two pairs of RW3's. I had done the same room with one set and it was difficult. Was advised to double up and side by side them in pairs. Used the same amp and my god the difference was immense. Had to back right off as the air movement did the work. Give that a try.

Also I recommend a DBX drive rack to set your cross over points, limiters and compression. You can even pink a room, which effectively it makes a horrible noise for a while with a mic plugged into it in the middle of the room and the it auto sets it for you to the ideal settings. Never used that bit yet, but it will do it I am told.

[WWDJ]

Is it just that venue you have used them in and are basing the sound on or have you used them in different places/venues?

Just 2 venues so far. They definitely sounded better in the pub at new year albeit they were rattling the windows, there was less boom, and I did have them close to a wall, so i will remember that next time to move them in a bit.

How about placing them side by side in the middle (bass is omnidirectional so they just make posh speaker stands and don't need to be under each cab, just in line with it. Imagine dropping a stone in a puddle, bass does that ripple). You will increase the air movement from the units by effectively doubling them up dead centre. You will find the result quite surprising.

The first time I ever side by sided cabs I was amazed. I did it with two pairs of RW3's. I had done the same room with one set and it was difficult. Was advised to double up and side by side them in pairs. Used the same amp and my god the difference was immense. Had to back right off as the air movement did the work. Give that a try.

Also I recommend a DBX drive rack to set your cross over points, limiters and compression. You can even pink a room, which effectively it makes a horrible noise for a while with a mic plugged into it in the middle of the room and the it auto sets it for you to the ideal settings. Never used that bit yet, but it will do it I am told.

I see you can see crossovers on there. Can you say for instance that the sub operates between 50hz and 100hz and nothing outside that gets passed to it, or is it just a low pass filter sending everything <100hz to the subs?

[Excalibur]

I see you can see crossovers on there. Can you say for instance that the sub operates between 50hz and 100hz and nothing outside that gets passed to it, or is it just a low pass filter sending everything <100hz to the subs?

In effect, yes.

[NKR]

In effect, yes.

It has adjustable filters on it and then there is the post crossover EQ, which I believe allows you to filter some of the frequencies out (I have not fiddled with that thought).

What it sounds like you need is the DBX driveracks Subharmonics feature.

From the manual.

24-36Hz and 36-56Hz (Subharmonic Synthesis) Level - 0 to 100%

These controls individually let you customize the amount of the respective synthesized frequencies to be added in, tuning the ultimate bass response of your system to taste. For example, if the sound is too woofy or growly, try turning down the 36Hz-56Hz level. If your woofers are bottoming out (making a ticking, popping sound), try turning down the 24Hz-36Hz level. You may find that a setting produces fine results in one room, but produces too much boominess in another. If this occurs, adjust the controls as needed, (e.g., increase one or the other of the band levels). Experimentation will pay off with smooth, full, deeply extended bass. Remember, you are not selecting a frequency. You are controlling the overall level of each band.

Its a good toy and I am starting to learn how to play with it properly.

[Excalibur]

It has adjustable filters on it .

Ah. Yet again, I have misunderstood the post. Silly me. I thought we were talking about the fixed filters on the sub. We appear to have moved on to the Driverack without me noticing. Sorry.

[NKR]

Ah. Yet again, I have misunderstood the post. Silly me. I thought we were talking about the fixed filters on the sub. We appear to have moved on to the Driverack without me noticing. Sorry.

I think we have or I am just off on a tangent outside the box again . I have a valid point thought having adjustable crossovers and subharmonics in one box should fix the problem for him.

[WWDJ]

I think we have or I am just off on a tangent outside the box again . I have a valid point thought having adjustable crossovers and subharmonics in one box should fix the problem for him.

I'm happy to talk about the capabilities and experiences of the Driverack. The theory is I should be about to get the sound right by moving the speakers elsewhere/phasing/etc but it's good to know what can be done if this room proves to be a real nightmare.

[Andy Goodtimes]

I have had exactly the same problems with one particular room with the 902 bins, I also have 905s, K subs and some turbo Sound passive double 18s which do not give me problems in the same room. However, the 902 bins are very much my preferred bin when they are set up right and sounding good. I would say they are a serious bass bin and don’t be fooled by their size.

Firstly I overcame the problem by inverting the phase on one of the bins, but this is not the correct way of doing things as it does reduce bass and can cause the sound to sound jumpy …its just a quick fix, sometimes when you are setting up during a short turn round and the Wedding breakfast has ran over you have to get on with it without messing about which is a pity as you just invert the phase and accept the shortfalls that this gives. The 710/902 combination is a 3.5k, £3.5k system that can sound amazing so why make do…might as well get some Tapcos.

In my problem room I now know exactly how to place the cabs and the result is a superb sound throughout the room. Thing is me getting it right was more by luck than judgement.

Sounds like Dave’s problem is definitely an acoustic one as he has already proved that the bins are fine and can work well in other venues. Placing bins against walls is definitely not on especially in small/medium venues and especially when walls run parallel as this will increase the room resonance and cause the type of problems Dave is having, its often trial and error but a usual place would be about ¼ of the room width from each side wall. This is because with bass the wave lengths are longer.

In small/medium sized venues which Dave’s is the bass lies close to the ground and it utilises the ground to increase the depth and volume of the bass so getting them off the stage is a big help. But, the mid/tops should be close to the edge of the stage and the bins as close to the front of the stage too so as to cut out time alignment problems of having the bins closer to the punters.

Bass is power hungry and whilst harmonics are directional bass is not, therefore running the bass mono means the load is equally shared by both channels which is helpful for power considerations but also for evenly distributing the bass throughout the venue.

Our ears will pick up lower frequencies in larger rooms or outdoors, small/medium rooms can’t cope with deep bass so often in venues that hold round the 150 mark it is pointless going below 50khz, this is because deep bass travels the easiest. Restricting the bottom end cuts out the low end noise that takes up most amp power and will give a clearer and louder sound. The signal can clip or go into compression because a low frequency steels the headroom.

Personally I don’t like graphics and the various types of speaker management systems. As Dave has a new PA the risk is he will make his new PA sound as bad as the old one because that is his ears reference point and unless you have exceptional hearing its always best to use one of the more sophisticated systems with a measuring microphone which does it all for you.

Sorry but its all going to be a suck it and see thing but it’s a good system and can sound good.