Sound Limiter Law

[thex-faders]

Hi all,

I did a search for sound limiter under the law section but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I was at a venue last night PlayFootball in Southend. Chase High School. They had a sound limiter unit on the wall with a traffic light system and two standard plug sockets on the front.

Directly above this were two sockets which I assume were part of the venues normal supply.

My question is: is it a legal requirement for a dj/band to plug into a system that is monitored by a sound limiter if it is available?

The reason I ask is that the majority of venues I have played with a sound limiter have always had another power supply which is not part of the system.

Thoughts and advice welcome.

Thanks
Tom

[Corabar Entertainment]

To go any way to answering that question, you'd first need to know the circumstances surrounding the installation of the limiter - ie: many are installed by venues as a requirement by the local council, who can stipulate the level that they are set to.

Now, whether it actually states in the paperwork that all performers must plug in to that socket... who knows? However, it will stipulate that performers cannot be over that particular noise level, and if it is louder then the venue will risk losing their licence.

[yourdj]

I usually always go by the rules.

Not when the council set it at rediculous levels and then position the limiter in another room or in a non visible place away from the very obvious performance area or stage. it does make you wonder the though process going through these technician etc?

If this happens I try to plug in elsewhere but use my level meter and stick to that as there
is no way I am risking a trip on first dance or another important moment as I have been there and done it!
I will also plug in a battery speaker, which could carry you through with at least some volume
(as my decks and laptop and mic are run by the laptop) so will carry on.

I will usually ask the function manager who normally agrees and can see I am not a
muppet who will blast out the volume (well I may be a muppet but not a loud one )

As per the law its between the venue and the license and you may well contribute to problems. If you sign a separate paper agreeing to the limiter then its your problem, although I doubt you would ever get prosecuted. It will not do you reputation any good though.

[katman]

Sound limiters are normally fitted after a venue has been the subject of noise compalints to Environmental Health.

I have fitted several limiters over the years, Citronic SL100, Formula Sound AVC2 and Formula Sound Sentry.

The Sentry is the type which cuts the power and is intended for venues that have visiting sound systems where the only real option is to deprive them of power should they get too loud whereas the other two are intended for fixed installation where they actually control the level of the sound in the venue without cutting it off completely.

In the installation manual for the Sentry is states that the contactor should control ALL sockets in the protected area to avoid people effectively bypassing the limiter but in reality this is not always possible. There are a couple of pubs where I installed them where it was only possible to control a couple of sockets in the area where entertainers set up due to the fact that the ring main supplying them also fed the fruit machines and various electrical items behind the bar. This makes it easy to "bypass" it but the onus is on the licencee to ensure that performers use it.

As to whether it is a legal requirement to actually use it, I dont think it would be provided that you werent going above the level determined as excessive by the EHO but at the end of the day, it is the venue that is at risk of losing their licence in the event of further complaints.

I know for a fact that people do get power from other sockets in venues because in a few local pubs I have seen very loud entertainment playing when the limiter is showing that it is tripped.

The problem with noise nuisance from music is that there are no pre determined limits. If it can be heard it is a nuisance. I once had to install one in a nightclub that was acoustically leakier than a sieve and it was almost as loud outside as it was inside. They "specialised" in drum and bass nights and totally ignored my advice that they needed to invest serious money in soundproofing and just went for the limiter. When I installed it and went to set it, the EHO made me turn it DOWN from its factory test setting which is something I have never had to do before. The fact that is got set to 86dB should give you some idea of how acoustically transparent the building was. It closed down a few weeks later after further noise complaints.

[yourdj]

The formula sound ones are great as they give you a chance. some just blip a light and bang so no warning.

as A DJ did you put them in view of the actual person using it or in a box in another room like so many venues in the forest
either that or its positioned behind you so you have no way of seeing it, or 12 foot up so a member of staff needs to get a broom to press the button LOL - The list goes on.

Another trick when you have a microphone one is to get a male to male XLR adapter and feed it out of a window. It will only work when connected and that does the trick. I would certainly not advise this however as you are tampering with equipment.

They are there for a reason and should be used when set to a reasonable level.

[katman]

The formula sound ones are great as they give you a chance. some just blip a light and bang so no warning.

as A DJ did you put them in view of the actual person using it or in a box in another room like so many venues in the forest
either that or its positioned behind you so you have no way of seeing it, or 12 foot up so a member of staff needs to get a broom to press the button LOL - The list goes on.

I always fitted the Sentry where is could be seen and on a couple of occasions also connected additional warning lights as it has that facility.

I always fitted a remote reset button so that it could be quickly reset and I also fitted a red/green LED to the button so that it could be seen to be on or tripped.

The latest Sentry can be hooked up to the AT1 which is a modified AVC2. Using that arrangement the Sentry will cut the power if the limit is exceeded but the performer has the option of plugging their line level signal chain through the AT1 which will start to attenuate the signal if they try to drive their system too hard and actually prevent them from exceeding the limit and thereby losing power. Its a best of both worlds solution.

I have also seen DJ's try to beat limiters when using the mic by using short sharp statements that exceed the limit but not for long enough to trip before going back below the threshold.

Its risky on two counts...
1 you may still trip.
2 you will create noise complaints which will result in the level being lowered further.

At the end of the day you cant win. The only way to prevent noise complaints is to control the noise and that can be a very expensive thing to resolve if there are structural issues at the heart of the problem.

Lack of air conditioning causing venues to open doors and window doesnt help, neither does the smoking ban as people are contantly going in and out of the building and if the door is directly to the noisy room its a major problem.

[thex-faders]

Some good advice there. From the example last night the manager of the venue didn't seem overly annoyed if we didnt plug into the limiter and there were no complaints. The venue itself is not directly close to any housing as its surrounded by football pitches.

But obviously sound does carry and being in school grounds I would assume that is the reason for having it installed.

It did seem odd that the sound limiter unit itself had sockets directly into it, then two normal sockets that didnt seem to be affected by the limiter at all directly above.

Anyway, it has answered my question that it is not a legal requirement to plug in, but is advised due to the venues potential to lose the license if a complaint is lodged and noise is above the agreed limit.

This also leads on to if a sound limiter (that is set to a ridiculous level) is tripped by someone screaming (had this a few months back) and for whatever reason a piece of my equipment is damaged.... are we liable to seek legal action against the venue?

Tom

[yourdj]

i like the idea of plugging into a limiter unless it is set at a stupid level.

I have one local venue and honestly you can have a normal conversation in front of the speakers.
That really effects the party dynamics as modern people are used to clubs and other parties and even home cinema etc.

They go to a party and expect a certain volume. i have done parties on very low volumes but it can really affect the uptake on dancing due to the lack of any bass whatsoever. Most have been OK but the odd few (usually in wealthy area with old people and nothing better to do) venues who have very silly levels.

Bloody pilled up ravers in the 90's and their free parties have made these laws to pass
Any sign of a fart and people complain. Fair enough if its audible all hours but english people do like their piece and quiet.
Most functions are done by 11 or 12 and most venues have double glazing.
I do see the smoking problem as pointed out and fire exits near local housing etc.

I love Spain - we can make as much noise all night in a fiesta and no one batters an eylid.
I am talking small festival rigs in the middle of a village!

[sonicdj]

I worked with one on saturday at Cheshunt, luckily it was set at 96Db which is a reasonable level, and had a good warning system the only time I went into the red was during Bon Jovi's Living on a prayer....and that was the crowd singing, unusually this system had a cutoff at 11.30pm when all power to the sockets was cut !! which meant I had to power down at 11,28pm ! The good point the shouts for just one more were pointless as I had no power :-)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

i like the idea of plugging into a limiter unless it is set at a stupid level.

Why on earth would you 'like' the idea of plugging into a limiter?