KAM Laserscan 3D ILDA Laser

[Chris1984]

I've found this site http://www.lasershowsafety.org/faq.htm
From which I have lifted these quotes..

18. What does the term audience scanning mean?
It is when a laser effect is directed into the audience, normally to create a tunnel or sheets of light that look like 3D objects that the crowd can touch.
19. Is it legal to audience scanning?
There is no law that specifically states that it is illegal to audience scan. But if you do scan laser effects into the audience, you need to be certain that the MPE is not being exceeded. If the MPE is exceeded there is a risk of members of the public sustaining eye injuries caused by the laser - which could lead to all sorts of consequences.
20. Are some effects more suited to audience scanning than others?
Yes, effects that include stationary or slow moving beams should be avoided at all times. If you can see the beam moving through the path it is taking, it is almost certainly too dangerous to project into the audience. You should also avoid projecting effects that contain hot spots or dwell points in them. That is where extra points are put into certain parts of the effect to help define a sharp corner etc. The energy present on these types of effect is not evenly dispersed and the hot spots may be hazardous. Smooth flowing effects such as a circular tunnel are safer, because they maintain a more constant speed. Additionally of you keep the whole effect panning over the audience, it helps to reduce the amount of time the laser beam is in any one persons eyes.

I'm sure I've seen the same or similar info on the ILDA site but can't locate it at the moment.

In short, audience scanning is NOT illegal in this country.

I dont think i said it was illegal just not aloud.
Most professional laser operators will say the same to amateur laser owners because they are the ones who give us a bad reputation and cause many of the hoops we have to jump through.
cheap lasers dont have any safety features suitable to make the safe for audience scanning and the operators of these cheap lasers dont have the knowledge or experience to audience scan safely.
They also use cheap parts and generally to create the more detailed effects use a fey slow scan rate so on that basis as you copy and paste would suggest shouldn't be used for audience scanning.

The show lasers we use are expensive, have the safety features are used by trained operators and the scanners alone cost over £4000 so can do very fast smooth things which are ok for this application.
with the current culture we have why risk yourself form some one suing you for laser damage they may have got elsewhere but blame on you?

surely the fact that the only replies are people sating they dont know or copy and pasting links etc only illustrates my point.

So this website you are linking to is an official one is it or is it just information someone has put up?

I have worked with the guy who runs that site a few times, he is well respected and knows his stuff and his coursers are worth doing.

[musicologydisco]

Seems to be an official organisation with lots of safety info and they run courses

[musicologydisco]

And from the worldwide recognised International Laser Display association (ILDA) these quotes..

"Some people falsely believe that deliberate audience scanning is banned in the U.S., or that there are differences between U.S. light levels and overseas light levels. These statements are untrue. Audience scanning is legal in just about every country -- including the U.S. Safe and unsafe exposure levels are about the same in every country."

"Audience scanning is actually safe if various factors are met: the beam must have a relatively large diameter, and the power must be relatively low. Should you happen to be in audience-scanned beams, a quick check is whether the light level feels pretty comfortable (generally safe), or if you instinctively close your eyes, turn away or have long after images (unsafe).
It should be noted that deliberate audience scanning has a very safe record. There are very few reports of accidents or even incidents after two decades of scanning on millions of people worldwide."

http://www.laserist.org/guide-to-laser-shows.htm

[musicologydisco]

I dont think i said it was illegal just not aloud.
Most professional laser operators will say the same to amateur laser owners because they are the ones who give us a bad reputation and cause many of the hoops we have to jump through.
cheap lasers dont have any safety features suitable to make the safe for audience scanning and the operators of these cheap lasers dont have the knowledge or experience to audience scan safely.
They also use cheap parts and generally to create the more detailed effects use a fey slow scan rate so on that basis as you copy and paste would suggest shouldn't be used for audience scanning.

The show lasers we use are expensive, have the safety features are used by trained operators and the scanners alone cost over £4000 so can do very fast smooth things which are ok for this application.
with the current culture we have why risk yourself form some one suing you for laser damage they may have got elsewhere but blame on you?

surely the fact that the only replies are people sating they dont know or copy and pasting links etc only illustrates my point.




I have worked with the guy who runs that site a few times, he is well respected and knows his stuff and his coursers are worth doing.

So audience scanning is not allowed by the people who use high end lasers. How on earth is that enforceable. It seems to me that the guys who have been running laser displays professionally are getting worried that it's fast becoming accessible to the masses now so may bring down the price. A bit like some Dj's moaning about being undercut by "60 quid Sid" as technology allows more people to access the market.

I do accept safety worries but these fears have STILL not been realised after years and years of audience scanning. It just perpetuates fear and could lead to unnecessary regulation on a "just in case" basis.

[Chris1984]

So audience scanning is not allowed by the people who use high end lasers. How on earth is that enforceable. It seems to me that the guys who have been running laser displays professionally are getting worried that it's fast becoming accessible to the masses now so may bring down the price. A bit like some Dj's moaning about being undercut by "60 quid Sid" as technology allows more people to access the market.

I do accept safety worries but these fears have STILL not been realised after years and years of audience scanning. It just perpetuates fear and could lead to unnecessary regulation on a "just in case" basis.

out of interest do you read what i am posting?

you put words in my mouth on both occasions...

i audience scan on a regular basis brood and did this evening with over 125 watts of laser power.
i said most pro laser operators will tell you you cant audience scan in the uk.
we arnt aloud in nearly all large venues.

you are wrong about there being no incidents - there have been many.

this is my last post on the subject and im fed up with people telling me about my professional job - i dont tell you about dj'ing im here to help and offer advice based on years of on the job experience working with and alongside many of the artists whos music you play at discos.
you obviosly know best as your copy and past addiction shows how little you know on the subject.

as its my industry i hear all the time about the dangers of laser and issues that they cause by inexperienced operators and cowboys.
we arnt worried about people buy cheap lasers and stealing the work as the fact of the matter is they won't - there is a hell of alot more that goes into our displays which is why all my colleges are busy all year all over the world working on shows big and small.

i have said before many times (including this post) it is safe if you know what you are doing and have the right control and saftey measures in place.

as far as i can see this is getting silly and you have no interest in this just making it sound what you want to here.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

There's no need to get worked up lads.

FWIW I personally work on the principle that it might be dangerous to scan so always fire onto a ceiling or wall above eye height.

If in doubt, the best course of action is to watch your back.

[Corabar Entertainment]

It seems to me that the guys who have been running laser displays professionally are getting worried that it's fast becoming accessible to the masses now so may bring down the price.

IMO, that's a really daft statement. I can't see those producing a full pro laser show being worried about a DJ with a KAM laser or two, somehow!


I'd rather listen to people who know what they're doing and avoid any potential problems than take a risk of getting it wrong!

Do we use any lasers? Not a lot, no, but when we do, we use ones that look good projected on to the ceiling: that way, we know there's next to no risk. Surely that's the best advice for the average lasers used in a mobile situation, as opposed to those used by the pro shows?

[musicologydisco]

Of course that's fine to offer advice. All I was doing was disputing what was presented as fact that "scanning is not allowed in the uk". That wasn't advice, it was incorrect information.
I understand that some local councils, and indeed some venues, are at liberty not to allow something on the grounds of H&S or some other reason but this is not the same as putting it out there that it's simply not allowed in the uk.

[chrisj]

Good to read is http://www.lasershowsafety.org/faq.htm

14. Is it okay to point beams of light into the audience?
No, only if the beam's irradiance is below that of the MPE can it be projected into the audience. Most of the time, with the lasers that are used for laser displays, the energy of a single beam is way in excess of the MPE, and should not be directed into the audience. If more than 1mW can enter the eye then the beam is unsafe.

There are so many laser safety sites that are saying 3B lasers are ni=ot safe for audience scanning unless the MPE has not been reached.

If someones retina is burnt they won't realise it until much later, maybe years, when their vision will be affected.

[deekay01]

This is getting quite interesting, also making me quite confused.

I think I now grasp the fact that lasers are not toys, they are dangerous to eye-sight and they can do damage in the wrong hands.
What I still don't have is the answer to how a mobile DJ without specialist tools can determine what effects are safe to fire into the crowd.

My Kam Laserscan has a mode in which the beams are very spread out and they are constantly moving, I have been out and stood about 10 metres
infront of the laser and I can't really see it bothering my eye at all but then again I'm not able to know if the laser is actually going near my eye or not.
My sound silly but I've been at events where they have used pretty big lasers and fired them into the crowd.

Check this video out I found on Youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUhmxfELK2s

Surely not? I mean it makes it worse that it's for a 50th Party because they probably already have or will easily get a crap eye-sight but is this the kind of thing that you mean is just
plain stupid. I'm using this as an example because he's using the same Laser as me, firing it from directly above the crowd easily into the view of anyones eyes.

Deekay