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Thread: Venue charging for 'outside' DJ

  1. #21
    Corabar Entertainment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    I can understand the logic however there are ways of combating those issues without restricting the client.
    I'd be interested to hear your ideas on how to deal that we haven't already tried.

    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    I may be way off here making generalisations but I personally see it as a money spinning venture only.
    Certainly not in this case.... however, certainly money was being lost by both us and the venue when not doing this, and TBH, the alternative to not including the admin fee was to insist that B&Gs HAD to have us DJ if they booked the site (which we talked the venue out of, and got the recommended list of people we trust in place instead)

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    By the way, I'd like to add that I am not having a moan about resident DJ's either so apologies if it has come across like that?
    I'm obviously one myself at one of my venues as I do 90% of their bookings (well, I get them but Daryll helps me from time to time) but I like to look at it as a 'recommended supplier' (I actually think it sounds better and doesn't put some customers off whereas the 'resident DJ' tag can do sometimes).
    One of the things I like about this job is the variety with reference to the different venues I / We visit. I always like to play at a venue I've never been to before. I always ask the question "Do you have a regular / resident DJ?". A few years ago (in my experience), a number of venues would have a resident DJ and they wouldn't entertain having someone new. I remember one occasion where I asked the above question and the reply was "Yes, he's ok. He's cheap and we've never had any complaints so why change it?".

    That's not exactly a great answer but I do understand it. If the job is being done then why change it but if I were the booker would I be happy with a DJ that was just "ok" and still making extra money off the customer? No is the answer.

    One venue I do a number of times a year is a lovely venue that is part of someone's property. He literally hires out the place and has a book of recommended suppliers that the customer can look through. He leaves everything entirely up to the customer and just takes the hire fee and does about 50 weddings a year.
    I've spoken to him before about doing some kind of package where the DJ comes with the venue and he's just not interested which is fair enough.

  3. #23
    ukpartydj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corabar Entertainment View Post
    I'd be interested to hear your ideas on how to deal that we haven't already tried.

    Certainly not in this case.... however, certainly money was being lost by both us and the venue when not doing this, and TBH, the alternative to not including the admin fee was to insist that B&Gs HAD to have us DJ if they booked the site (which we talked the venue out of, and got the recommended list of people we trust in place instead)
    I recently worked at at similar site and the way they managed noise was providing me with a pdf beforehand listing the requirements which included keeping volume below a certain decibel level, stating music must be lowered at 11. 30 and off by 12 (it did state power would be turned off at 00.05 and it did on the nose, just basic lighting left on! This was followed up by a the owner / manager of the site having a chat with me beforehand on the phone whilst discussing unloading / location and repeating it when I arrived / checking with a db meter a couple of times throughout the night... I thought they were very common sense, practical people. With this sort of approach should anything go wrong (band / DJ are too loud) it's very easy to intervene and say "MR DJ you're too loud by 2db, please reduce the volume" a friendly sound limiter .

    I think that would solve the issue of noise?

    Weddings are a very personal thing and B&Gs want to choose people they click with, people they trust and suit their theme. I'm admittedly a stubborn person with strong sometimes controversial opinions (I won't get into PAT testing again, I've been convinced that's worthwhile now) so prehaps take it with a pinch of salt but I do believe limiting a clients choice of suppliers is out of order.

    My fiancée was a little bit annoyied when I was really strict on picking venues and writing them off every time there was a whiff of "you must do what we want for your wedding" but after talking to other couples who've gotten married recently she's been so relieved that we are able to have things how we want them to be.

    Crazy idea a bit off topic here but maybe just maybe venues should make themselves suitable for hosting weddings with loud music? Funny how they have these massive buildings right in the middle of town surrounded by residential property with VERY loud music which can barely be heard from the outside... Nightclubs / pubs I think they're called. I wonder if their owners ever thought maybe we should just keep the volume down and ask the DJ for PLI & PAT certificates... I don't think I've been asked once for either in my Nightclub DJ days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakermaker Promotions View Post
    I'm obviously one myself at one of my venues as I do 90% of their bookings (well, I get them but Daryll helps me from time to time) but I like to look at it as a 'recommended supplier' (I actually think it sounds better and doesn't put some customers off whereas the 'resident DJ' tag can do sometimes).
    Yes, though I'm often referred to as the "resident DJ", I am, as you say, the "preferred supplier" and clients are perfectly able to arrange their own DJ. I come as part of the "all inclusive packages" that the venue offers and all of their "preferred suppliers" play a part in these packages in some way.

    Sometimes, clients do book non package deals but the venue is on board and does try to sell their preferred suppliers directly to their clients. I'm none too bothered as it does mean I get a bit of time off. The only thing is that, if I were to take a private booking on one of those nights and the client then experience difficulty and request my services, I then have to arrange alternative cover for one or the other.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppentertainments View Post
    I know of quite a few venues who do this, or insist on using the resident DJ only. Although annoying (and likely illegal) there isn't realistically much you can do - who REALISTICALLY will give up their dream wedding venue for the sake of choosing their own DJ - venues know this so have us over a barrel
    ...
    I know someone who did - my brother!

    Quote Originally Posted by musicology View Post
    I think a call to trading standards to clarify his position would be a better option before accepting any such arrangement.
    Why do people still give the "call Trading Standards" line? Trading Standards have very little sway in anything these days due to their powers being taken away from them and handed to Citizen's Advice (formerly CAB). For a start, you are referring to a client so he is a consumer. TS no longer offer ANY services for the CONSUMER and only deal with business to business issues these days. If you have an issue, as a consumer, with any supplier or tradesman then TS will send you on your merry way! You will be pointed in the direction of CA who run the consumer side of things. TS will only take on business to business issues. However, CA may, and it's a very unlikely may, refer the case to Trading Standards if the case involves issues such as counterfeiting or large scale fraud. TS will keep a file on such referrals until they have enough info to actually take any action which, in all likelihood, will be never!

    Quote Originally Posted by Corabar Entertainment View Post
    Putting things from the other side of a coin: we work very closely with a marquee site and have done for a couple of years now. When they first started, they just hired the land and people could book whatever suppliers they wanted. However, due to numpties, things have gradually changed. When EH got involved because of noise complaints is when we got involved (we were booked privately by a B&G, and there weren't any noise complaints that night), so since then, we've been providing the PA for every wedding, and it's actually written in to their licence from the Council that we supply it.

    These days, the fee for the hire of the land includes some basics - ie toilets, generators, and our PA, and a list of recommended suppliers (that the clients book direct, so no fee taken by the venue). However, as of next year, they are going further: there will be an admin fee of £100 if they want to choose a DJ that isn't on their recommended list (which includes us and a few other local DJs that we recommended to them). Why? Nothing to do with wanting to make money, but everything due to the fact that we've had some right idiots there who haven't got a clue and end up spending hours and hours with them bitching, moaning, complaining, chasing for documentation, sorting out their 'issues', teaching them (what should be) basics, etc. These issues haven't happened with any other types of suppliers, so there is no surcharge if they don't choose off the recommended suppliers list for other suppliers, but both we and the site owners are fed up with dealing with the issues from bands and DJs, so the surcharge is being imposed to at least compensate us a little for the time we spend if they do choose someone not on the list.

    It may be unfair on decent DJs (and we've been on that end too, where a client wanted us but the venue refused), but after seeing what the venues have to put up with, I can't say I blame them wanting to minimise those issues.
    It amazes me that DJs see this as just a money-making scheme for venues. But it's really not. Venues are huge investments and it's their way of protecting their investment from problems caused by muppet suppliers. And we all know that there are plenty of those around!

    Also, I think the suggestion that these practices are somehow illegal is way off track. Every business owner has the right to decide who they provide their services to so long as that decision doesn't breach sex, race or disability discrimination legislation. And to be fair, even disability discrimination legislation is still very weak in this country. Pretty much anything else is fair game*. I could say I won't provide my services to people who are wearing yellow tops and I'd be within my rights to do so. There is no legislation that says I'm not allowed to refuse to provide my services to people who are wearing yellow tops! Sounds crazy, and a little bit sad, really, but it's perfectly true. And this is just something trivial to illustrate my point. And my point is that a business (in this case a venue) owner is perfectly entitled to refuse to provide a service to a client who doesn't want to use an in-house DJ or one on a list of recommended suppliers. That's business and whether you think it's unfair or otherwise, that doesn't make it "illegal".

    The only way these practices could be in some way deemed "illegal" was if they breached anti-competition laws and, frankly, these laws don't cover minor, petty issues like these under discussion here.

    * Of course, laws aren't always as straightforward as that and, to make them simpler, the various discrimination laws in the UK were merged in to the Equality Act 2010 and the following "protected characteristics" are the only things you can't legally discriminate on the grounds of:

    age
    being or becoming a transsexual person
    being married or in a civil partnership
    being pregnant or on maternity leave
    disability
    race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
    religion, belief or lack of religion/belief
    sex
    sexual orientation
    Dazzy D
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  6. #26
    Corabar Entertainment's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    I recently worked at at similar site and the way they managed noise was providing me with a pdf beforehand listing the requirements which included keeping volume below a certain decibel level,
    Already do this, and include an AVC with the PA
    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    stating music must be lowered at 11. 30 and off by 12 (it did state power would be turned off at 00.05 and it did on the nose, just basic lighting left on!
    Yep. Actually, bands have to finish at 10pm.
    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    This was followed up by a the owner / manager of the site having a chat with me beforehand on the phone whilst discussing unloading / location and repeating it when I arrived / checking with a db meter a couple of times throughout the night...
    Similar (but with an AVC in the chain rather than dB meter readings), namely, emails from the venue and us to the B&G before they book any supplier, with all the information and stressing that they should pass that on to anyone they consider booking; emails from the venue and us directly to the DJ / band once they've booked - including links to the equipment being supplied along with general information; chats...... and then, despite all this, all hell breaking loose a couple of weeks before the wedding is due to take place because, despite everything, they hadn't read / taken notice of anything that was sent to them or said to them; chasing over and over and over again for paperwork; bands pulling out because they refused to get PLI (which would have cost them £13 each); Steve having to go down to the site on the morning to PAT the DJs equipment because he 'hadn't got around to it' (and so many more problems I couldn't even begin to list them! The sheer number of hours wasted on almost EVERY booking!); on-the-day issues because idiots haven't got a clue how to do anything other than press 'play' (including having to show one DJ where his master volume was because he was having a hissy-fit because it was so quiet when his channel sliders were at max, but his master was right down, but he didn't know what that was); Absolutely AWFUL distorted sound because, despite being told and sending them in writing that if you push the volume way past the AVC limit, it won't get louder, only crappier, they still do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    I think that would solve the issue of noise?
    Yeah, so did we.... until we tried it - for 2 years. The problem is, you and I and everyone else on here are coming from a professional stand point. Unfortunately, there's a huge share of the market that isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    Weddings are a very personal thing and B&Gs want to choose people they click with, people they trust and suit their theme. I'm admittedly a stubborn person with strong sometimes controversial opinions (I won't get into PAT testing again, I've been convinced that's worthwhile now) so prehaps take it with a pinch of salt but I do believe limiting a clients choice of suppliers is out of order.
    I do agree with you - which is why we wouldn't go in as the only DJ allowed, and put together a good selection of local DJs who are all very different in styles and personalities, but who all are good, decent people who know what they are doing, but all operate professionally. There really should be someone for everyone on this recommended list, but now the venue and we know that we're not going to have to spend hours and hours and hours arguing the toss with anyone on the list. B&Gs are still free to choose someone else if they pay an additional admin fee, and whilst I also dislike this limitation, it's not fair either that we and the venue were losing money either. Why should we work for free? (The only other way to do it would have been to up the price for everyone and make it a 'hidden' charge - which is worse, IMO).


    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    Crazy idea a bit off topic here but maybe just maybe venues should make themselves suitable for hosting weddings with loud music? Funny how they have these massive buildings right in the middle of town surrounded by residential property with VERY loud music which can barely be heard from the outside... Nightclubs / pubs I think they're called. I wonder if their owners ever thought maybe we should just keep the volume down and ask the DJ for PLI & PAT certificates... I don't think I've been asked once for either in my Nightclub DJ days.
    ....and considering this is a marquee site at least half a mile from the nearest dwelling, the site owners have gone above and beyond and really worked hard to keep everyone happy: our PA with an AVC fitted; plus we erect an acoustic barrier behind the speakers (outside the marquee / tipi / whatever temporary structure the B&G choose). It works absolutely brilliantly, and there have been no (genuine) noise complaints since we've been doing this, whilst the volume is still great for the B&G and their guests (we've had several B&Gs come down for demos because the person they booked bitched to them about working within the limits, but every single one has come away from the demo saying that the DJ / band / performer is complaining about nothing and the volume is fine), but sorting out the noise issues doesn't prevent all the hassle from these total numpties that we've had to deal with.
    Last edited by Corabar Entertainment; 08-09-2016 at 10:55 PM.

  7. #27
    ukpartydj's Avatar
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    I guess you have to see it to believe it! I was guilty of that master volume problem once on a Nightclub when I'd only ever used pioneer and Allen and heath gear and they had some ancient mobile DJ style huge mixing unit with half the knob labels worn down so that threw me off.

    I'm not sure how I feel about this having to do extra work thing... Every client is different and some require considerably more our time but they're charged the same. I do understand the logic though and it's up the owners in THE end. I guess if I knew I was getting a booking from a demanding couple I might up the price a bit so I get it... Just hmmmm annoying for me and other professionals.

    Dorset DJ - Dorset based DJ service
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  8. #28
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    ...and considering this is a marquee site at least half a mile from the nearest dwelling, the site owners have gone above and beyond and really worked hard to keep everyone happy: our PA with an AVC fitted; plus we erect an acoustic barrier behind the speakers (outside the marquee / tipi / whatever temporary structure the B&G choose). It works absolutely brilliantly, and there have been no (genuine) noise complaints since we've been doing this, whilst the volume is still great for the B&G and their guests (we've had several B&Gs come down for demos because the person they booked bitched to them about working within the limits, but every single one has come away from the demo saying that the DJ / band / performer is complaining about nothing and the volume is fine), but sorting out the noise issues doesn't prevent all the hassle from these total numpties that we've had to deal with.

    Just out of interest and as this is not a money spinning exercise nor its it a closed shop, if someone does bring in thier own DJ/PA/lighting and pays the 'surcharge' and that DJ is not a numpty - does said DJ then automatically appear on the approved list in future seeing as they are obviously a responsible person?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dicky View Post
    Just out of interest and as this is not a money spinning exercise nor its it a closed shop, if someone does bring in thier own DJ/PA/lighting and pays the 'surcharge' and that DJ is not a numpty - does said DJ then automatically appear on the approved list in future seeing as they are obviously a responsible person?
    As the venue has only just implemented the policy, it's not something we've discussed, but seeing as that is exactly how they have built their recommended lists for all other suppliers, then that's quite possible.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ukpartydj View Post
    I guess you have to see it to believe it! I was guilty of that master volume problem once on a Nightclub when I'd only ever used pioneer and Allen and heath gear and they had some ancient mobile DJ style huge mixing unit with half the knob labels worn down so that threw me off.
    The big difference here was that the mixer in question was his. (also Pioneer)
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