Sub help please

[DJ Jules]

Thanks folks

I must be doing something wrong.

I ended up with 2 x Sub 705 AS ii and also 2 x RCF 715 A Mkii and I am using an Allen and Heath Zed 12 Fx mixer. I assumed this would give me more than enough grunt for anything I do.
Have been doing a couple of gigs recently in really small venue's (I dont do very many gigs but like good sound when I do), I am talking the lounge of a small pub which is around the size of a large living room.

All my speakers are turned up to 12 o clock on the dial. When playing music or playing karaoke with singers, even in this small space, its not all that loud but the LED's on the mixes are hitting into the red. I just dont get it. I thought this set up would have plenty of grunt and be nowhere near the red whilst giving more than enough volume for a small venue. Is it the compatibility of the mixer, should I be going past 12 o clock on the speakers or am I just going deaf.

Mixers have different levels of output - Denon are reknown for having quite "hot" outputs, USB powered all in one controllers tend to max out at much lower levels. Unless you're seeing the clip lights on your SUBS or TOPS then you've still got more power to play with, it's just that your mixer output isn't high enough to make use of that power.

Put your earplugs in, connect up the kit and stick on a tune that will give the kit a workout and then turn up the volume on the A&H mixer until you're working just below the red. Then turn up the inputs on the tops/subs until you start to see the clip lights (and remember to balance the tops/subs so that they're working nicely together and the high/mids aren't overwhelming the lows or vice versa) - and now you have the right settings for your rig to run at it's limits without clipping on either the mixer or any of the PA.

Julian

[djderek1971]

Thankyou Julian

Will give that a go on Saturday. I wondered if it were the mixer. Thanks again for such a prompt and helpful response. Much appreciated

[Excalibur]

I thought this set up would have plenty of grunt and be nowhere near the red whilst giving more than enough volume for a small venue. Is it the compatibility of the mixer, should I be going past 12 o clock on the speakers or am I just going deaf.

With a rig that size I'd be comfortable playing to 300 people in a sports hall! This twelve o'clock lark harks back to Mackies, where turning them past this was for microphone inputs. On the RCF, such limitations don't apply, they've sensibly fitted a switch for this.

Julian has given you excellent advice, and I'd be inclined to say that the basis of your problem is that you're restricting the gain on the cabs, and compensating by turning up the levels on the mixer too far, in an attempt to get the required volume.

An analogy with your car would be putting it in second gear, and using the accelerator to try to get to 70mph. Not gonna happen. Put it into fourth, fifth or sixth gear, and it's a doddle.

[rth_discos]

All my speakers are turned up to 12 o clock on the dial.

With RCF these should be turned to the maximum. The use the control on the mixer to send a relevant 'volume' to them.

I think you'll be surprised just how much extra 'grunt' you have in those speakers!!

[Excalibur]

With RCF these should be turned to the maximum. TheN use the control on the mixer to send a relevant 'volume' to them.

Amen, Brother.

I think you'll be surprised just how much extra 'grunt' you have in those speakers!!

And if he isn't, they need sending back for investigation, cos I can make a lot more noise with a lot less PA.

[mbp]

I have an American Audio mixer Q-2422 Pro and it has a 'trim output' button on the back. It is run into 2 x Wharfdale Titan 12A speakers and (initially) I had the same problem. Turning the trim output up a shade seemed to have solved the problem.

Can anyone advise if this seems ok.

Upto recently I've always used passive speakers and amp

[rth_discos]

I have an American Audio mixer Q-2422 Pro and it has a 'trim output' button on the back. It is run into 2 x Wharfdale Titan 12A speakers and (initially) I had the same problem. Turning the trim output up a shade seemed to have solved the problem.

Can anyone advise if this seems ok.

Upto recently I've always used passive speakers and amp

Again, as before, turn the speakers up to the max.

Then adjust everything before it.

So yes, if it's still low, turn the trim up on the mixer. Ideally you want the 'peak' light to come on on the speakers as you start to touch the 'red' on the mixer. So you'll need to make a lot of noise to 'set' the level accordingly.

From then on, everything is controlled only by the mixer.

[mbp]

Thanks.....upto now I've always had them at about three quarters turned up.

Will have a noisy test later!

[Excalibur]

Ideally you want the 'peak' light to come on on the speakers as you start to touch the 'red' on the mixer.

Correctamundo. Every light in the signal chain should go red simultaneously, as you push the channel faders up. That's the maximum ( safe, usable ) output of your system. Google " Gain Structure". That's what we're talking about here.

Just a little point. Your mixer will have a master gain, and a channel gain. If the master is turned low, you'll be pushing the channel faders too hard to get your volume. It's best to have them somewhere around threequarters as a guide. That's a bit more trial and error.

[Nakatomi]

Again, as before, turn the speakers up to the max.

Then adjust everything before it.

So yes, if it's still low, turn the trim up on the mixer. Ideally you want the 'peak' light to come on on the speakers as you start to touch the 'red' on the mixer. So you'll need to make a lot of noise to 'set' the level accordingly.

From then on, everything is controlled only by the mixer.

Well there's a rule of thumb that can end up with people blowing up their active speakers.

Let me just add a little finesse to that statement:

turn the speakers up to the maximum setting they allow for LINE LEVEL inputs. On some active cabs this will be all the way up. On others, half way up. Others still.. somewhere inbetween. Consult the user's manual.

The reason I bring this up is that you don't want to be hitting the limiter on an active speaker very often. 'Cos what can happen if you do is that it'll prevent distortion etc BUT the limiter will actually INCREASE the average level of the audio by a good factor & this can stress the speaker system components if they're not adequately rated (yes YOU Alto, W-Audio etc). The occasional flash of the 'peak' or 'limit' LED is generally OK, but if it's flashing more often than on the beat, pull back your levels.

See also - I've heard tell that the limit LEDs on W-Audio kit don't work We had one in at a speaker demo night I was involved in - they sounded alright but try as I might I just couldn't get the limit LED to come on, even pushing +15dB out of my desk.