Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Chat

[mattydj50]

In last Saturday's SUN newspaper, the Judge Rinder Consumer Column printed the following letter and response. I thought, given the current circumstances, it might be interesting to read what a legal mind has to say on event cancellations. The letter reads:

My daughter booked her wedding before the coronavirus outbreak and paid £500 deposit for a photographer. The wedding is now likely to be cancelled but the snapper says the deposit can’t be refunded.
Is this legal, given it is effectively the Government cancelling the wedding rather than my daughter?
Alan, Brighton


Judge Rinder's reply:

I can understand the photographer’s reluctance to hand back your daughter’s deposit at the moment but he almost certainly must. He might have a contract with your daughter with some wording in it stating that deposits are not returnable in the event of hurricanes or wars or viruses – called a force majeure or act-of-God clause – but I doubt it.

Whether he does or not, the bottom line is that he will be unable to provide his services, so will be in breach of contract. He cannot perform the work as legally agreed.

Your daughter’s entitlement to a refund would apply, in my view, even if the terms of business made it very clear her deposit was “non-refundable”, as she has had to cancel because of a Government edict.

Your daughter has two options over this. She can either ask the photographer to retain the deposit (assuming she still plans on getting married) or insist on a refund within 14 days. Either way, she is legally in the right.


Reading the above, I would say that we would be skating on thin ice in keeping deposits for any event cancelled due to COVID-19. The grey areas start to come into play where events are cancelled but the cause falls outside of the "government edict", i.e. the banning of gathering events. That's yet to fully come but, as has been said, what if, on 1 June, the "ban" is lifted from say September 1st but your event you have booked in for 2nd September, your client cancels tomorrow. Is that a COVID-19 "edict" cancellation or not? At the time the cancellation is made (29 May) the ban is still in place and "indefinite", then I believe it is, so the cancellation is government edict driven and the client, according to Rinder is entitled to a full, deposit included, refund.

Judge Rinder does give a caveat that it applies to cancellations as he expects postponements to roll the deposit over to the new, revised date. I would suggest that if the cancellation of the initial date was treated as that and a new deposit charged for the revised date, then the above case WOULD apply to any retention of a deposit for the original event.

Worms. Can of? I am no lawyer, but Judge Rinder is pretty clear in his opinion.

[Imagine]

And yet the CMA who are looking into the whole thing say something completely different

https://www.abwb.org/post/covid-19-e...ce-on-weddings

[Benny Smyth]

I get all of my legal advice from Judge Rinder and The Sun. I also have Jeremy Kyle on hold should I need a marriage counsellor.

If you can justify your deposit and any subsequent payments, you do not need to refund and that is the guidelines given to us from the CMA. A DJ asking for fifty quid to build a contract, easily justifiable. Probably double that is just as easily justifiable. A venue charging 50% may have a harder time justifying it but not impossible.

Take it on the chin, not up the trumpet.

[Excalibur]

If you thought lockdown presented some issues with regards to events being postponed, contracts, deposits and payments, just wait until what is around the corner.

Up until now, everything has been a bit black and white. Venues where weddings were held were closed. And that was it.



Everything is about to become a whole lot more complicated.

Bizarrely, we're coming to the end of 'the easy part' in terms of managing this.

Absolutely correct, give that man any prize off the top shelf.

My head's hurting with the possible scenarios where the wedding goes ahead, but the disco is regarded as no longer necessary. After all, if you can't dance together, why bother? Or will we be legally obliged to play nothing but EDM and Bounce, to prevent people breaking social distance rules? More likely, will we just be putting six radio mics on stands for speeches, then playing background music for the twelve people attending the festivities?

To quote: " This is not the beginning of the end, it's the end of the beginning".

[DJ Jules]

In last Saturday's SUN newspaper, the Judge Rinder Consumer Column printed the following letter and response. I thought, given the current circumstances, it might be interesting to read what a legal mind has to say on event cancellations.

I don't know if Judge Rinder qualifies as a legal mind The kind of blanket advice that he's given here (and, to an extent, the over-simplified message that people will take away from the CMA announcement) is kind of right, but there's more to it than he's said.

I've said the same as others, life is about to get very complicated and the legal position for each industry will be different as we start to come out of lockdown. Yesterday I saw a post from a photographer who's wedding contracts only state that they are retaining him and his services for a period of x hours on a specific day. No mention of event, venue, subjects to be photographed, no of images/prints delivered, etc. This means that, technically, as soon as restrictions lifted to the point where we could meet people from outside our household, he could deliver his contract (and you could argue that he could have even delivered it during lockdown as long as social distancing was observed as he would have been unable to work from home). Would this be viewed as a fair? Probably not, but as long as he's sensible in dealing with cancellations and postponements he probably won't be called up on it.

Photographers/Videographers will probably be one of the first to be able to return to work and could have the most arguments with couples who decide to cancel/postpone after the initial restrictions are lifted and weddings could technically go ahead. I don't know if entertainment/music at gatherings is going to be explicitly restricted once they're allowed again (the rules being drawn up in Ireland include no music/entertainment) but, if it's not, we could fall into a similar trap where there is nothing stopping couples from going ahead with some form of wedding/gathering, but they want to reschedule because of the risk of issues (e.g. tracing forces a 14 day forced isolation for the groom - I don't know if this would count as frustrating the contract!) or just because it won't be the wedding they envisaged.

Julian

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

Photographers/Videographers will probably be one of the first to be able to return to work and could have the most arguments with couples who decide to cancel/postpone after the initial restrictions are lifted and weddings could technically go ahead. I don't know if entertainment/music at gatherings is going to be explicitly restricted once they're allowed again (the rules being drawn up in Ireland include no music/entertainment) but, if it's not, we could fall into a similar trap where there is nothing stopping couples from going ahead with some form of wedding/gathering, but they want to reschedule because of the risk of issues (e.g. tracing forces a 14 day forced isolation for the groom - I don't know if this would count as frustrating the contract!) or just because it won't be the wedding they envisaged.

Julian

If the groom is isolated then that is a VERY specific and obvious example of the wedding not being able to go ahead.

I've a lot of international couples and travel restrictions are going to play a big part in how their day can or can't play out and I'll deal with those on a case by case basis.

A wedding where I can physically and legally perform as per the t's and c's of our contract but they want to move because it's not the big day they dreamed of, THAT is a cancellation, and I'm more than happy to rebook them under a new contract and booking fee plus give any and all help necessary with their wedding insurance for the cancelled date... They're booking us to perform, quite literally that is it, we're there to hopefully make people dance, the overall outcome of the day - how magical and Disney like it turns out or how many dozen relatives turn up has nothing to do with us, nothing to do with my business or how I can provide my service and I'm not going to be pandering to it.

There's also the ones that will flat out lie and say the venue has cancelled on them, for all I know it's already happened, but aside from pestering the venue themselves, there's not much you can do in that situation.

[djeddie]

With regards to the Judge Rinder/CMA bits, I must say the CMA advice seems to use statistics to justify their case (and the businesses they represent) and it even says that it may be down to a Judge to decide. It's all to do with 'fairness', you cannot have a contract that it unfair either way. Yes, insurance companies are trying not to pay anything, but that's part of their job, and I reckon there's going to be a lot of test cases coming very soon which will set precedent. But, insurance companies know that they'll be able to hold out as long as possible where your "Joe Bloggs" won't have the funds, and legal resources, to carry on. Whether Rinder is right or wrong*, he (or whoever actually wrote it) shows the actual legal side to the argument... those test cases are going to depend on a lot of legal argument. So I think a lot of these cases are going to go on for some time... then the appeals etc etc. Don't expect an answer for several months, if not years, yet. Who can last that long?

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned (but I may have missed it) is what kind of entertainment world are we heading for? Let's look at credit first, my step-daughter was looking to buy a house in March. She had 5% deposit and at the time there were nearly 400 mortgage deals on offer with 5% deposit... now there's 3 (not hundred, just 3). The 10% deposit deals have also shrunk, most mortgage deals now want a 15% deposit minimum. I honestly believe the days of 'everything on credit' have gone and won't return for many years. So how does this affect the entertainment world? Now I may be being pessimistic, but I think the days of 'OTT' weddings is over (for now); venues won't be able to have full capacity for a long time yet, the days of adding a few hundred quid for uplighting and giant 'L-O-V-E' letters (for example) are gone, etc etc. People will have to get used to much smaller affairs (in big rooms) as it simply won't be possible to pack a room full of people... meaning the venues will either have to charge more for less as it won't be economically viable for them to do otherwise... if you see what I mean.
Also, bear in mind how much debt the Government is now in and that we are going to be paying for this for many, many years to come. (Think "you paying, your children paying, your children's children paying" etc etc). Taxes are going to have to go up, VAT will more than likely go up, meaning everything is going to be more expensive. I honestly believe weddings are going to back to how they were when I first started (mid 80's), wedding in a church/civic centre, then off to the local community centre/pub back room for the reception.

Have to add that I'm glad I'm out of the business now (gave up professionally in 2010) and I really feel for anyone who does this professionally at the mo'. Now, as I said I may be the pessimist, but I've always planned for the worst and hoped for the best. Also my post could have gone on for pages and pages explaing in more detail (boring everyone to death) so it's just my thoughts very condensed!


* - I remember one of his replies to a Private Parking Company claim which I totally desagreed with; he said to pay as that's the T's & C's, I on the other hand have helped in about 50 cases against PPC's and not one has been paid and in three cases the "parker" has had monies returned to them by court order... and I'm not legally trained.

[rth_discos]

Let's look at credit first, my step-daughter was looking to buy a house in March. She had 5% deposit and at the time there were nearly 400 mortgage deals on offer with 5% deposit... now there's 3 (not hundred, just 3). The 10% deposit deals have also shrunk, most mortgage deals now want a 15% deposit minimum. I honestly believe the days of 'everything on credit' have gone and won't return for many years.

This mortgage thing is temporary, and for good reason. With everyone working from home and many people furloughed, mortgage lenders simply don't want to offer first time buyer mortgages at the moment because they are a lot more time consuming to setup than a remortgage. They will come back, and it'll only be a matter of months.

Now I may be being pessimistic, but I think the days of 'OTT' weddings is over (for now); venues won't be able to have full capacity for a long time yet, the days of adding a few hundred quid for uplighting and giant 'L-O-V-E' letters (for example) are gone, etc etc. People will have to get used to much smaller affairs (in big rooms) as it simply won't be possible to pack a room full of people... meaning the venues will either have to charge more for less as it won't be economically viable for them to do otherwise... if you see what I mean.

I fear that you may be correct. This situation will also make people reevaluate their wedding day. Do they really want such a 'flashy' wedding day? Most weddings I see were unaffordable for the people buying them. I can see that changing very quickly. As I've told many brides, *everything* after the ceremony is optional.

[DJ Jules]

This mortgage thing is temporary, and for good reason. With everyone working from home and many people furloughed, mortgage lenders simply don't want to offer first time buyer mortgages at the moment because they are a lot more time consuming to setup than a remortgage. They will come back, and it'll only be a matter of months.

There's 3 reasons why Mortgage companies have withdrawn products:
1. House prices may be very volatile in the short term, potentially leaving mortgage providers exposed if the deposit is small
2. Affordability will be very difficult to assess for the next 6 months or so due to lots of temporary arrangements around income - and the FCA enjoys kicking providers who don't do robust assessments
3. Interest rates are on the floor for the short term. It's not a good time to set rates.

All of the above are short term glitches. If house prices are stable, they'll be back and they'll be lower interest and more affordable than ever.

[Jim - Scotland's Party DJ]

My wife and I are going to luck out on the mortgage situation.

My first teaching gig was in Saudi Arabia - on paper the money was but it was totally tax free, rent free, 3 meals a day and the only time I ever really had a reason to spend money was going to Bahrain every month or so for a blow out. In turn I was able to put a large deposit down on a house which I got for a great price because the guy was desperate to sell.

We were due to remortgage in February and have a chunk to put into it with the idea being we would be mortgage free in 3 years (I'll be 38, quite happy with that situation) but held fire to see how this panned out.

The rates were low even before this but now it's going to be buttons, we might even be able to push it to 2 years.

Every cloud and that but it does tie in with rth's comments about the cost of weddings. I'm very aware of how fortunate a financial situation I'm in, particularly for someone that grew up in a close in one of the most deprived schemes in Scotland. It's also not really been a conscious decision - I went to the middle east because I needed a job and that was all that was on the table, I got the house for this price because the market was down and the guy wanted to move back down south, my DJing income supplements my teaching income by quite a bit not because I'm desperate for the dough but because I work hard and I want to be compensated for it properly.

Anyways, to my point - for whatever reason, A LOT of teachers have booked me throughout the years so I know exactly what they're earning and when I look at their cars, houses and weddings, it's clear to me that they're spending a tonne of money on these things. Even if their partner has a well paying job, it's really not in my psyche to be driving a car that costs the same as my net income or even more than that on a wedding so I think, short term, we definitely will see belts tightening and that might be winding down time for me, we'll see.

I could of course be wrong. There's a massive FB brides group up here. It shut down for a bit when this all kicked off and people were getting worked up. As soon as it opened back up there were 3 types of post:

1. I've had to reschedule, I need to find a new something or other
2. How has everyone's insurance been?
3. Any recommendations for totally needless tat that I can waste my money on - flower arches, candy carts, printed gowns, slippers, hen do t shirts - take your pick...