Help with sound system

[plainman007]

Hi,,Im a new member here and would like to wish all of you a very happy new year.

I need your help on an audio system. I have a Crown XLS 202 amplifier, along with two full range speakers which are very similar to the JBL EON 15s. Basically a 15" full range with a horn tweeter. I got a pair of these and hooked them up to the crown xls. The Crown is supposed to output 200 watts rms @ 8 ohms. The speakers are rated 300 rms @ 8 Ohms. The source is a high definition media player which runs with an internal HDD. Im taking the RC Red n White cables to a Yamaha MG10 Mixer. Mixer out goes into the Crown amplifier. Im no satisfied with the volume. I was told it can easily pump out good quality stereo for about 150 people in a library room of about 1000 sqft. But it strains to do this. The amp once i get past 60% volume. The red clips lights start glowing. So i turn it just to 50% and hike the master volume on the mixer and the volume isnt enuf. Im not looking at disco kind of depth. Just good stereo is enough. What am i doing wrong ?? How should i calibrate this system ?

How much in Rms would one need to cover a hall of about 1000 sqft with about 150-200 people in it. Its a documentary film projection. They should hear the dialogs and have some amount of music depth.

Thanks

[DJWilson]

Hi, and :welcome2: for the venue your asking about yourll need at least 800WRMS. one person takes from 1-3watts each. http://www.professor-pa.com

[Excalibur]

Hi,,Im a new member here and would like to wish all of you a very happy new year.

I need your help on an audio system. I have a Crown XLS 202 amplifier, along with two full range speakers which are very similar to the JBL EON 15s. Basically a 15" full range with a horn tweeter. I got a pair of these and hooked them up to the crown xls. The Crown is supposed to output 200 watts rms @ 8 ohms. The speakers are rated 300 rms @ 8 Ohms. The source is a high definition media player which runs with an internal HDD. Im taking the RC Red n White cables to a Yamaha MG10 Mixer. Mixer out goes into the Crown amplifier. Im no satisfied with the volume. I was told it can easily pump out good quality stereo for about 150 people in a library room of about 1000 sqft. But it strains to do this. The amp once i get past 60% volume. The red clips lights start glowing. So i turn it just to 50% and hike the master volume on the mixer and the volume isnt enuf. Im not looking at disco kind of depth. Just good stereo is enough. What am i doing wrong ?? How should i calibrate this system ?

How much in Rms would one need to cover a hall of about 1000 sqft with about 150-200 people in it. Its a documentary film projection. They should hear the dialogs and have some amount of music depth.

Thanks

Firstly, Hello and welcome, secondly as no-one has sais it yet, please take the time to introduce yourself in the Newbies section, and thirdly to your question.

1000 sq ft is just over 30ft by 30ft so not the Albert Hall by any standards. Logically a system of that size should have power to spare. My only suggestion at this point is to turn gain up nearly to max on amp, not on mixer.

[Excalibur]

Hi, and :welcome2: for the venue your asking about yourll need at least 800WRMS. one person takes from 1-3watts each. http://www.professor-pa.com

No he won't they're listening, not raving!!!!:bang: :bang: :bang:

[DJWilson]

No he won't they're listening, not raving!!!!:bang: :bang: :bang:


sorry missed that bit of documentary bit

[A1DL]

Hi,,Im a new member here and would like to wish all of you a very happy new year.


welcome to the forum & happy new year to you too :beer1:



I have a Crown XLS 202 amplifier, along with two full range speakers which are very similar to the JBL EON 15s. Basically a 15" full range with a horn tweeter. I got a pair of these and hooked them up to the crown xls. The Crown is supposed to output 200 watts rms @ 8 ohms. The speakers are rated 300 rms @ 8 Ohms. The source is a high definition media player which runs with an internal HDD. Im taking the RC Red n White cables to a Yamaha MG10 Mixer. Mixer out goes into the Crown amplifier. Im no satisfied with the volume. I was told it can easily pump out good quality stereo for about 150 people in a library room of about 1000 sqft. But it strains to do this. The amp once i get past 60% volume. The red clips lights start glowing. So i turn it just to 50% and hike the master volume on the mixer and the volume isnt enuf. Im not looking at disco kind of depth. Just good stereo is enough. What am i doing wrong ?? How should i calibrate this system ?
Thanks

Nice little entry level Crowns, but the XLS202 is simply too small to power the speakers, look at the XLS602 (380wrms @ 8R) or the XLS802 (500wrms @ 8R), both of which would be a much better match. The XLS802 would be my preferred choice of the two, for the load you are driving.



How much in Rms would one need to cover a hall of about 1000 sqft with about 150-200 people in it. Its a documentary film projection. They should hear the dialogs and have some amount of music depth.
Thanks

That all depends on the efficiency of the cabs


HTH

Tony

[Excalibur]

Right, from what I can find, Amp should be fit for purpose, it's a name brand Power Amp. Mixer is all singing, all dancing, so the only helpful advice I have is to say make sure you are using correct type of input, eg 7/8 for stereo input. Try using the ST out connectors, as these are suggested for power amp input. Set all tone controls flat, and increase levels gradually. Hope this helps.


sorry missed that bit of documentary bit

Obviously.


welcome to the forum & happy new year to you too :beer1:




Nice little entry level Crowns, but the XLS202 is simply too small to power the speakers, look at the XLS602 (380wrms @ 8R) or the XLS802 (500wrms @ 8R), both of which would be a much better match. The XLS802 would be my preferred choice of the two, for the load you are driving.



That all depends on the efficiency of the cabs


HTH

Tony

In a perfect world, yes, but remember he's not running a disco!:bang: It's big home audio! Rather than suggesting what new kit he should buy, can we tell him how to set up what he's got?

[flatliners]

i thought it was 10 watts per person
i will have to ask my mate about this he knows shed loads about sound systems.saying that i might get him to come on here and he maybe could do a q/a on sound systems

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

i thought it was 10 watts per person
i will have to ask my mate about this he knows shed loads about sound systems.saying that i might get him to come on here and he maybe could do a q/a on sound systems

It's a nice offer, but there are one or two people on here who are fairly up on the subject.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I was always told to have the amps on full volume and then control the rest via the mixer. For what you are using it for what you have should be ok but obviously something is wrong somewhere?
Imagine your amp is a Ferrari...what you are currently doing to your amp is like driving the Ferrari around everywhere in 3rd gear and you aren't using it to it's full potential. I have a couple of Crown XLS602's and you can really hammer them before the red clip lights start to flicker so you may have a problem with your amp OR if your mixer 'clip' dials (also known as 'gain' dials) are turned right up and your amp isn't then that may be the problem?

Power everything down, turn all of the dials on the mixer (volume and clip or gain dials) to zero. When you power up again, turn the amp volume to maximum and your mixer to 12 o'clock and then use the clip (or gain) dials to control the volume and see how you get on.

Other than that I have no idea - sorry.

[Excalibur]

I was always told to have the amps on full volume and then control the rest via the mixer. For what you are using it for what you have should be ok but obviously something is wrong somewhere?
Imagine your amp is a Ferrari...what you are currently doing to your amp is like driving the Ferrari around everywhere in 3rd gear and you aren't using it to it's full potential. I have a couple of Crown XLS602's and you can really hammer them before the red clip lights start to flicker so you may have a problem with your amp OR if your mixer 'clip' dials (also known as 'gain' dials) are turned right up and your amp isn't then that may be the problem?

Power everything down, turn all of the dials on the mixer (volume and clip or gain dials) to zero. When you power up again, turn the amp volume to maximum and your mixer to 12 o'clock and then use the clip (or gain) dials to control the volume and see how you get on.

Other than that I have no idea - sorry.

That's what I said, only better put, as usual!:)

[plainman007]

Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I will defintiely remember to post a hello on the newbies section.

So what im understanding is that i should switch off all equipment. Set the mixer to zero. I currently am using the ST out for signal to amp. The Red and White audio out from the HD player goes into the 9/10 stereo input. So thats fine too as per what youve suggested. Now im supposed to turn on the amp and turn both the vol controls to full level or about 90%. Gosh im nervous. Then im supposed to get the mixer volumes to all 12 o clock. Then i power on the hd player and play. Then add gain on mixer and tweak as needed. Is my understanding of your valuable ideas correct. Please correct me if ive gone wrong somewhere. I woudnt want to make a mistake somewhere and blow something up.

Also i have one question to add. The HD player also has a volume level inside the menu. This can be turned up and down via the remote. I guess this adds or deducts gain to the main source signal. What should i set this at please ? Since it may matter in the pipeline.

Thank you all very much.

[JAMdisco]

On the subject of "amps to max - control with mixer" - does this also apply to active speaker enclosures such as my Mackie SRM 450's - I usually set the volume pot on the back of the speakers at 12 o clock (half way) - Could this be why they are getting a bit hot?

[TonyB]

On the subject of "amps to max - control with mixer" - does this also apply to active speaker enclosures such as my Mackie SRM 450's - I usually set the volume pot on the back of the speakers at 12 o clock (half way) - Could this be why they are getting a bit hot?

The Mackie gain control seems to work a bit different to an amp gain control and seems to be more of a sensitivity control. Beyond the 12 O'clock position is meant to be used if you use them for vocals with a mic plugged in. You may find they run cooler if you turn the gain down a bit to 11 O'clock.

With regards to the original post, do you have any EQ controls? If you have the bass too high it will cause the amp to clip earlier as the lower frequencies consume more power.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Excalibur - Great minds think alike then!
I have a couple of pairs of DB Technologies Basic 400's aswell and they are active speakers. With those I turn them up full as well and control the rest via the mixer. They obviously aren't Mackies so I wouldn't know what to suggest.

On another note...this goes back to another topic but it's along the same lines...I have a Peavey CS3000 amp that I use with my JBL JRX125's. It's power easily exceeds what the JBL's are capable of yet I have still been using it with it's level up to full...a big mistake I would say. I also use a Crown XLS602 to run a couple of Peavey Pro Subs yet I think the power from the JBL's was drowning out the bass.

That's what I like about forums like this and the advice that is to hand...On the Peavey amp I have the volume at 12 o'clock now as like I said, there is too much power for the JBL's...so far they have coped with what i have thrown at them but I don't want to keep chancing my luck. The sound is now fully as the bass bins aren't drowned out. They are only 300w per side but the JBL's are 500w plus.....the Peavey amp is 1000w plus.....see what I mean??

[TonyB]

Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I will defintiely remember to post a hello on the newbies section.

So what im understanding is that i should switch off all equipment. Set the mixer to zero. I currently am using the ST out for signal to amp. The Red and White audio out from the HD player goes into the 9/10 stereo input. So thats fine too as per what youve suggested. Now im supposed to turn on the amp and turn both the vol controls to full level or about 90%. Gosh im nervous. Then im supposed to get the mixer volumes to all 12 o clock. Then i power on the hd player and play. Then add gain on mixer and tweak as needed. Is my understanding of your valuable ideas correct. Please correct me if ive gone wrong somewhere. I woudnt want to make a mistake somewhere and blow something up.

Also i have one question to add. The HD player also has a volume level inside the menu. This can be turned up and down via the remote. I guess this adds or deducts gain to the main source signal. What should i set this at please ? Since it may matter in the pipeline.

Thank you all very much.

To set the gain structure up correctly:

Start without anything playing through the mixer. Set the master gain and the amp gain controls to full. Turn back the mixer master gain control until the noise reduces through the speakers to an acceptable level which will be around 3 to 4 O'clock. When thats done turn the gains down on the amp to minimum.

Set the channel fader to about 3 O'clock and play some sound through the mixer (preferably something that is quite loud). Adjust the volume control for the HD player until the LED's are mainly in the green with the occasional blip into the the red.

Then adjust the gain controls on the amps until the clipping lights begin to flash and back off a bit so they don't come on at all.

The object is to set up with the minimum of background noise when nothing is playing through the system and then have a signal that isn't clipping when there is something playing.

DJ's don't have to worry about gain structure so much because any background noise from the sound system is drowned out by the crowd noise but when doing live sound or using equipment in a quiet environment, setting up the gain structure correctly is more important.

[Excalibur]

Hi all, Thanks for the warm welcome. I will defintiely remember to post a hello on the newbies section.

So what im understanding is that i should switch off all equipment. Set the mixer to zero. I currently am using the ST out for signal to amp. The Red and White audio out from the HD player goes into the 9/10 stereo input. So thats fine too as per what youve suggested. Now im supposed to turn on the amp and turn both the vol controls to full level or about 90%. Gosh im nervous. Then im supposed to get the mixer volumes to all 12 o clock. Then i power on the hd player and play. Then add gain on mixer and tweak as needed. Is my understanding of your valuable ideas correct. Please correct me if ive gone wrong somewhere. I woudnt want to make a mistake somewhere and blow something up.

Also i have one question to add. The HD player also has a volume level inside the menu. This can be turned up and down via the remote. I guess this adds or deducts gain to the main source signal. What should i set this at please ? Since it may matter in the pipeline.

Thank you all very much.

Basically yes. Please check that the output from your player is " line" ie not
" headphones" and therefore already amplified. This is a good way of distorting everything beyond belief!:eek:

As a general rule, set all tone controls " flat" ( dead centre) and all volume controls to zero. This applies particularly to the "menu volume" ( Except amp, virtually max should give you most leeway before clipping) If the signal you are feeding into the mixer is already amplified ( such as a headphones out) it's very difficult to avoid tremendous distortion. Try other outputs from your player, if poss, see if this helps. Your system should work fine, I'm fairly sure it's a wrong connection, or level setting. :)





On the subject of "amps to max - control with mixer" - does this also apply to active speaker enclosures such as my Mackie SRM 450's - I usually set the volume pot on the back of the speakers at 12 o clock (half way) - Could this be why they are getting a bit hot?

Sorry mate, I've only recently read up on these, and can't help you.




Excalibur - Great minds think alike then!
I have a couple of pairs of DB Technologies Basic 400's aswell and they are active speakers. With those I turn them up full as well and control the rest via the mixer. They obviously aren't Mackies so I wouldn't know what to suggest.

On another note...this goes back to another topic but it's along the same lines...I have a Peavey CS3000 amp that I use with my JBL JRX125's. It's power easily exceeds what the JBL's are capable of yet I have still been using it with it's level up to full...a big mistake I would say. I also use a Crown XLS602 to run a couple of Peavey Pro Subs yet I think the power from the JBL's was drowning out the bass.

That's what I like about forums like this and the advice that is to hand...On the Peavey amp I have the volume at 12 o'clock now as like I said, there is too much power for the JBL's...so far they have coped with what i have thrown at them but I don't want to keep chancing my luck. The sound is now fully as the bass bins aren't drowned out. They are only 300w per side but the JBL's are 500w plus.....the Peavey amp is 1000w plus.....see what I mean??

On the first site I found
http://www.jblpro.com/JRX/JRX125.htm

Recommended Amplifier Power: 500 watts to 1000 watts into 4 ohms So it appears you're in the acceptable window.:thumbs_up:

[plainman007]

Excalibur > Im using the red and white rca outs, the player doesnt even have phones out. It has only Digital co-axial. Optical. And then rc red and white connectors which are the ones im using. Quality of cables are good etc. I bought the costliest wires available. Youve asked me to keep the menu volume within the HD player to min. But then i think no sound will come out right ?

[TonyB]

Excalibur > Im using the red and white rca outs, the player doesnt even have phones out. It has only Digital co-axial. Optical. And then rc red and white connectors which are the ones im using. Quality of cables are good etc. I bought the costliest wires available. Youve asked me to keep the menu volume within the HD player to min. But then i think no sound will come out right ?

Then set up the gain structure properly as I posted above.

[plainman007]

Hi im sorry im so daft in this subject. But can you tell me about the volume on the HD Player. You asked me to set this to 0. But at 0 there will be no sound out from the source player right. So how will i be able to calibrate the mixer and amp levels. Or do you mean im supposed to first do the hiss noise (pink noise check and calibrate) and then open out volume on the HD player ?

[TonyB]

Hi im sorry im so daft in this subject. But can you tell me about the volume on the HD Player. You asked me to set this to 0. But at 0 there will be no sound out from the source player right. So how will i be able to calibrate the mixer and amp levels. Or do you mean im supposed to first do the hiss noise (pink noise check and calibrate) and then open out volume on the HD player ?

Did you miss reading my post http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=185880&postcount=16 or are you just ignoring me? :D

[plainman007]

Hello Tony. Definitely not ignoring you. :).
Im just new to the whole thing so im very confused.
Yes i read your post in Detail. Thank you so much.

I have one doubt.
In one of your lines you have said "Set the channel fader to about 3 O'clock and play some sound through the mixer (preferably something that is quite loud). Adjust the volume control for the HD player until the LED's are mainly in the green with the occasional blip into the the red."

The leds your referening to are the mixer ones or on the amp. Because in my mixer (Yamaha MG-10) it has many green leds and then goes into orange ones and then runs into red leds. So im assuming you mean they should be mostly in the orange and occasionally bump into the red areas (when the sound peaks). Right ?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Did you miss reading my post http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=185880&postcount=16 or are you just ignoring me? :D


Hello Tony. Definitely not ignoring you. :).


That situation arose 'cos plainman007 wasn't quite validated and I was moderating his posts, so they might have been a delay with posts arriving.

[Excalibur]

That situation arose 'cos plainman007 wasn't quite validated and I was moderating his posts, so they might have been a delay with posts arriving.

So it's all your fault then? :confused: :p

Plainman, Tony means on the mixer, he's setting it for maximum output with minimum extraneous noise, a fine way. Treat the orange sectors as the final green. I used my backup mixer recently, which has orange sectors, unlike my main mixer, and wondered why I was so far off the limit! Go with his advice, and yes of course, if you turn a volume to zero, you will get zero output, you just bring it up as little as possible, until you get where you want to be. :D

[plainman007]

Thank you very much. Tony, Excalibur, The moderator and all others too. I will try this at my next gig which is about 1000 sqft with about 130 people. This will be on monday. Ill sure come online and let you all know how it went. Also ill be mounting my speakers on tripods. Ofcourse i read some other useful posts on positioning and how to have the horn just above the heads with the full range aiming at ear level. So far ive had them on the ground and my stands just arrived. Im sure this gig will sound better. Thanks to you all. Ive got much more to learn about sound & lights and hope to share my ideas since i work on avid and such other video oriented aspects of the events industry. Catch you all on monday.

[plainman007]

Hello to all.

I had tried everything out as discussed.

At the outset setting the speakers on stands carried the dialogues etc much better than before.

The clipping problem however still persists. I set the amp on full volume (both channels). Then turned on the mixer. Set bass mids and treble to flat 0. And the master and channel gain to 0. Then set the master on mixer to 3pm volume. To see what electrical noise i was getting. I dont know if its good news or bad but there was no noise at all but the barest min hum at full volume, that too if we had our ears against the baffle. Then we backed off a lil till even that hum stopped. Then turned on and played loud music from the hd player. Hd player volume @30%. When we turned the gain up on the channel fader beyond 12 the amp started off with the red clip lights. Finally output volume was the same as before. Only now the amp was on full volume and the mixer was low. Same clipping at wherever theres music or powerful elements. Not when theres only dialogue. But when theres action it lasts for about 30 to 40 secs. So i dont know wether its ok to let the amp clip for a short period like that. Then again its dialogue for 10 mins. Then peaky moments for about 1 min. And so on.

[plainman007]

Hello, just bumping this topic in case it slipped your attention.
Please help. Or please tell me if you were to buy a system for a 200 member documentary audience within a 1000 sqft room size what sorta amp & speakers would you prefer ?

[Excalibur]

If I understand it right, having followed advice, you are still not a lot better off. The only advice I still have on your gear is to see if you can lower the HD Player volume any further? Other than that, the deafening silence suggests that the system is simply too small, which I find hard to believe!

I still believe that the problem lies in the player output. Can you test it against a CD player and see if the player has the same problem ? If the symptoms are identical then you appear to need a bigger system. If the CD player runs fine, then I'm a Genius!:D Note, the output on the CD Player would be the line/rec out, not headphones. Good Luck.

[plainman007]

I never ever use headphone sockets out in any application whatsoever. I always use RC. But if i lower the player ouput, Yes the clipping will stop. But then volume heard will drop. Its like if i reduce here i will have to increase at another stage. And its all amounting to the same.

I think the system isnt right. I got ripped off by the sales guy who told me that the crown xls 202 is more than enough for about 150 people in a room. Also i doubt crown would make a power amplifier for a crowd of about 50 people in a 500 sqft room. My understanding is that the very fact that its a power amp means its for a pro application. Meaning at least a small gathering. Im amused at how such a name brand made a power amp for what about 20-30 people ? The only place this amp seems powerful without clipping is my dining room which is about 150 sqft ? Ive seen real lousy brand amplifiers in my country outperforming this in volume. Unlucky hmm.

[mr rusty]

My 2p.

set the output from the HD near to max. Set the trim control on the mixer so that the input LED's just don't clip. (i.e. mixer pre-amp maxed) Set the mixer output to near max. Turn up the power amp until it just doesn't clip. This is going to be the best/highest output you are going to get with each gain stage maxed but not clipping.

I think your speakers are a bit big for the amp. The RMS of the amp should as a minimum be equal to the RMS of the speakers and many recommend it should be 1.5 - 2 x speaker rating.

If you are running the amp close to the edge, make sure you engage the limiter and low-cut filter (if it has them - usually set by dip switches)

[plainman007]

Mr Rusty > Your second line says "Set the trim control on the mixer so that the input LED's just don't clip. (i.e. mixer pre-amp maxed)".....I dont think my mixer has input leds. There is only one set of leds and that is above the master pot. I think thats the mixers Output level. This is the Yamaha MG-10. I dont think it has an input LED. Any ideas ?

I thought most people suggested getting an amp that isnt rated higher than your speakers as that may damage the speaker. My speakers are rated 350 rms each @ 8ohms. So i need an amp that is 700 rms per channel for these speakers ?

The amp is the CROWN XLS 202. It doesnt have anything except 2 main gain controls for the left and right.

[gillo]

Mr Rusty > Your second line says "Set the trim control on the mixer so that the input LED's just don't clip. (i.e. mixer pre-amp maxed)".....I dont think my mixer has input leds. There is only one set of leds and that is above the master pot. I think thats the mixers Output level. This is the Yamaha MG-10. I dont think it has an input LED. Any ideas ?

I thought most people suggested getting an amp that isnt rated higher than your speakers as that may damage the speaker. My speakers are rated 350 rms each @ 8ohms. So i need an amp that is 700 rms per channel for these speakers ?

The amp is the CROWN XLS 202. It doesnt have anything except 2 main gain controls for the left and right.

disconect one speaker and see if the other channel clips before the other if it does the speakers are iinefficient or the crossovers in the cabs are causing resistance causing clipping.

[TonyB]

Getting back to basics, can you let us know exactly what you are using the set up for? I may have mistakenly got the impression because you said you are using a media player, that you are using it for audio/visual where an audience are sitting in silence watching a visual display.

If they are sitting quietly then the system should be able to cope but if they are talking and there is a lot of ambient background noise, then it may struggle. When the room is empty of people does it seem loud enough?

I agree with what has been mentioned, it could be the signal from the media player that is causing premature clipping so try using a CD player plugged into the mixer to see if it is any different. If it is no different then you can rule that out as being a problem.

It is the lower frequencies (bass) that consume the most power and most likely cause the clipping so you could try using the EQ on the mixer to cut the bass and see if it makes any difference. The media player may over emphasise the bass so it sounds better when used with a home hi-fi.

The other thing that I thought of too was that the speakers may not be very efficient. You say they are "like" JBL's EON 15's but what make are they?

[Excalibur]

Hello to all.

I had tried everything out as discussed.

At the outset setting the speakers on stands carried the dialogues etc much better than before.

The clipping problem however still persists. I set the amp on full volume (both channels). Then turned on the mixer. Set bass mids and treble to flat 0. And the master and channel gain to 0. Then set the master on mixer to 3pm volume. To see what electrical noise i was getting. I dont know if its good news or bad but there was no noise at all but the barest min hum at full volume, that too if we had our ears against the baffle. Then we backed off a lil till even that hum stopped. Then turned on and played loud music from the hd player. Hd player volume @30%. When we turned the gain up on the channel fader beyond 12 the amp started off with the red clip lights. Finally output volume was the same as before. Only now the amp was on full volume and the mixer was low. Same clipping at wherever theres music or powerful elements. Not when theres only dialogue. But when theres action it lasts for about 30 to 40 secs. So i dont know wether its ok to let the amp clip for a short period like that. Then again its dialogue for 10 mins. Then peaky moments for about 1 min. And so on.

Sorry to keep coming back to this, but if something has a volume control, it's an amp. The volume control in the player may be introducing distortion at the beginning of the chain, and thus causin clipping at low levels of sound output. Try comparing a CD player ( which only has a line level output, which is what we want) to see if this improves things. All we can do is process of elimination, I'm afraid. A thought occurs to me, and it may not work, but check the specs, and see if it's a runner- When I had some loder lower powereddisco gear, the amp clipped fairly early. When I added a second pair of seakers, I could push the volume much higher before this happened, and also the second pair of speakers greatly boosted volume. If your speakers are 8ohms, and your amp can run 4ohms( which without checking, I'm sure it can) Then if you could beg/borrow/steal a second set of preferabl identical ones, it would be interesting to try this. It is along the lines of what Gillo was saying. Also just try another set of speakers on their own, or try one from one set on one side, and a different one on the other, and compare.
As power crazed DJ's we would all suggest a bigger system, but I'm convinced that your's is big enough for what you want. I ran discos for years, with 150w per side, into speakers not dissimilar to yours! It was loud enough for a disco, so cinema soundtrack should be a doddle!


Edit: Please tell me that your speakers are passive( no mains cable, powered by Crown amp only!! ) and I've checked, as long as your speakers are 8ohms, you can run two pairs safely on the Crown. And it still should be big enough as it stands now, I can't understand it. I bet it's something really silly and easy.

Edit Edit: Also try another amp for comparison, the only way forward may be substition till the offending item appears. My money's still on the player output as the criminal!

[plainman007]

Tony > You understood exactly right tony. Its an audio visual presentation. Educational. Pin drop silent audience. Cinema stereo soundtrack. With a projection in pitch darkness. Its an educational documentary. I was the one who edited it so i know that the sound is basically a stereo track with only 2 channels of encoded audio. Also theres no BIG difference between when the hall is full seated or when its empty.

I tried lowering the vol on the player (actually its a professional media server one of those harddisk based 1080p digital servers which pump a hd signal into all those plasmas we see at showrooms etc). When i lower volume on it the sound becomes less on the speakers and hence ofcourse the clipping stops. But them im lost for volume. So what do i do to get the volume up ??? raise vol on the mixer ? or on the amp ? .......its back to the clipping so all roads lead to the same result.

I have bass at 2pm level. Mid and high are @ 12 o clock. Im assuming thats no too much bass push.

Yes you are right they are no big brand speakers. They are just the same as JBL eons. Said to be from china from the same guys who make for the name brands. OEM product. They sell to other countries the same speaker but without the JBL label. But i dont know if i got ripped off. But its a ditto match to the JBL in question in body etc. Dont know if i got ripped off. But there are guys selling this model only to many party halls etc here in my area.

Hmmm, i was offered a set of wharfedale of similar structure 15" with a horn tweeter. Thats with a wooden cab. I dunno if i shd have bought that. I bought this because of the abs body etc. Now im stumped. I dont mind buy better speakers later but i dont know for sure where the fault lies.

Excalibur > Ill try to play a cd player on this set up soon. Also if its of any value the speaker has two sets of speakons at the back ? does it make a difference which one we plug into ? Whats the second speakon for ? To take the signal back out ?

If i try adding one more set of speakers and it works better with 4 speakers at a time. I anyway have no solution there since my setup has got to be 2 speakers of this size. The entire kit all fit perfectly into one van. I cant have an overspill of two more speakers.

Yes my speakers are passive. Not active speakers. Runs only off the amp. They are 8 ohms,, its mentioned even behind the speaker. Ill try getting a dvd/cd player and try my output from there as you have all suggested.

Ill try going real low on the player volume and see what happens.

[Excalibur]

I will resist the urge to make certain jokes as it would not be helpful, or polite!;) Many folk on here use and love plastic speakers, so they are not a bad thing per se. The only really good advice I can give is to check each link in the chain ( or as many as possible) by substitution with another item ( amp, mixer, speakers) Just see if anyone in the business will lend a night and some kit and advice. Round here, many of us would do that for :beer1: :D

Please answer a question which has been at the back of my mind, are you on the other side of the water?;) :confused:

On second thoughts, I can't resist it! Buy another pair of speakers, and a roof rack! :D :D

[plainman007]

Hi Excalibur > Not to worry,, i think i have an ok sense of humor. So hit me. At least we can have some fun at the expense of my plastic speakers. LOL. Yes your right, but not on the other side of the water...im on the other side of the globe !!.

I would love to have a roof rack but the van isnt mine. In fact each time its a different van. Its a transport contractor. I drive a sports car styled vehicle. Its kinda flatish. In the night you might run over it thinking its a speed breaker. So theres no fitting anything into it but myself. But im glad i found you all since at least my next buy will be better planned. Better late than never.

Can you tell me about the speakons question ive asked about in my previous post please ?? Will that matter in anyway to sound volume. Is there any chance that the soldering inside the speakons is reversed. Out phase or something ?

[Excalibur]

Hi Excalibur > Not to worry,, i think i have an ok sense of humor. So hit me. At least we can have some fun at the expense of my plastic speakers. LOL. Yes your right, but not on the other side of the water...im on the other side of the globe !!.

I would love to have a roof rack but the van isnt mine. In fact each time its a different van. Its a transport contractor. I drive a sports car styled vehicle. Its kinda flatish. In the night you might run over it thinking its a speed breaker. So theres no fitting anything into it but myself. But im glad i found you all since at least my next buy will be better planned. Better late than never.

Can you tell me about the speakons question ive asked about in my previous post please ?? Will that matter in anyway to sound volume. Is there any chance that the soldering inside the speakons is reversed. Out phase or something ?


The second speakon is simply a duplicate of the first, thus allowing you to connect a second set in parallel, to lower the impedance to 4ohms, and add a second pair of drivers, thus shifting more air, and getting a " free " power increase, which is the object of the exercise. ;)

The advice still stands, to try substituting items in the chain, and a second set of speakers ( if the first set are acceptable) will help clipping, and perceived sound output. Good Luck.:)

[mr rusty]

Mr Rusty > Your second line says "Set the trim control on the mixer so that the input LED's just don't clip. (i.e. mixer pre-amp maxed)".....I dont think my mixer has input leds. There is only one set of leds and that is above the master pot. I think thats the mixers Output level. This is the Yamaha MG-10. I dont think it has an input LED. Any ideas ?

Just had a look at the manual on line. Each channel has its own input gain control controlling the pre-amp. The input LED clip led is marked "peak" on the MG10 - set the gain until this led just doesn't light too much. Your pre-amp is then maxed out. Doesn't matter what the HD is giving out - low or high signal strength, the input gain control is used to set the input level to the highest strength possible. If you max all the following gain stages - individual channel and master gain controls to just not clip the mixer O/P and the amp to just not clip, this *is* the most you can get out of this rig. If its not loud enough, you need a bigger rig.

[plainman007]

You mean theres an actual led near each channel's gain control ?

[TonyB]

Thats some "sound" advice from Excalibur :) With regards to the EQ settings, as I mentioned before, its the lower frequencies that consume most of the power and too much bottom end will contribute to clipping. You mentioned that you have the bass eq at 2 O'clock and this could be contributing to the problem.

It's better to take away rather than add with the EQ so rather than increase the bass, try reducing the mid and top ranges.

Your hearing will get used to whatever settings you have so they may get used to a setting with too much bass and when you reduce it, it will initially sound like something is missing. Try turning the bass totally anticlockwise and let your hearing get used to the sound for a couple of minutes with minimum of bass first.

Adjust the top and mids downwards a bit and then add a bit of bass, the less you are comfortable with the better. If you can increase the volume above the level that is presently clipping, you will probably find that you don't need so much bass anyway. At lower volumes, the bass is not so pronounced so there is a tendency to increase it but at higher volumes it doesn't need so much emphasis.

[mr rusty]

You mean theres an actual led near each channel's gain control ?

That's what the manual for the MG10 says..............

"GAIN Control
Adjusts the input signal level. To get the best balance between
the S/N ratio and the dynamic range, adjust the level so that the
peak indicator (2) comes on only at about maximum input
level.

PEAK Indicator
Detects the peak level of the post-EQ signal, and lights up red
when the level reaches 3 dB below the clipping level."

[plainman007]

Hi Rusty > You are correct i only now noticed that the mixer has peak level indicators. But theres a reason i didnt know about them. The same guy who sold us the rig told us not to use those inputs for stereo. He said they were meant only for mono (which i further believed since i saw those channels alone having xlr mic inputs). So honestly ive never gone close to those channels as he asked us to use only channel 9/10 as they were stereo channels and to take the output from st out and into the amp. Can you tell me if i plug my inputs into these mic channels how i should connect ? Its a mono channel right ?

[mr rusty]

Looking at the MG10 manual, you also have channels 3/4 and 5/6 marked L and R which also have channel gain controls. A stereo signal is just 2 x mono, so nothing to stop you using 2 mono channels to handle a stereo signal. In this case, I suggest you use line inputs 3 and 4.

The main point is, no matter how weak/strong the signal coming out of your HD, the channel pre-amp gain control can be used to push the signal up (add gain) to a point where it is at a maximum - shown by the peak light just lighting up. This means that the input side of the mixer is at peak. The stereo out is the correct output to use. The signal is at peak when the main output LED's are just peaking. This means that the output from the mixer is at a maximum. If you take this signal into your amp, and set that also so it is peaking (just not clipping), then this is the most that you can get from this rig.

If you can get that input peak led to light up, you know you are getting a strong input signal. You really should be able to make this work. It is quite possible that you will get a better quality of signal by running the HD volume at 50-75% of max and then adding gain with the mixer channel. Quite possible at 100% volume, the HD is producing a clipped/distorted signal. On the other hand, don't run the HD too quiet, or you will end up adding gain to both the signal and the background noise.

[Excalibur]

Looking at the MG10 manual, you also have channels 3/4 and 5/6 marked L and R which also have channel gain controls. A stereo signal is just 2 x mono, so nothing to stop you using 2 mono channels to handle a stereo signal. In this case, I suggest you use line inputs 3 and 4.

The main point is, no matter how weak/strong the signal coming out of your HD, the channel pre-amp gain control can be used to push the signal up (add gain) to a point where it is at a maximum - shown by the peak light just lighting up. This means that the input side of the mixer is at peak. The stereo out is the correct output to use. The signal is at peak when the main output LED's are just peaking. This means that the output from the mixer is at a maximum. If you take this signal into your amp, and set that also so it is peaking (just not clipping), then this is the most that you can get from this rig.

If you can get that input peak led to light up, you know you are getting a strong input signal. You really should be able to make this work. It is quite possible that you will get a better quality of signal by running the HD volume at 50-75% of max and then adding gain with the mixer channel. Quite possible at 100% volume, the HD is producing a clipped/distorted signal. On the other hand, don't run the HD too quiet, or you will end up adding gain to both the signal and the background noise.

Though this differs minimally from my advice, I would reckon we agree totally if I say " run the HD volume at the lowest possible figure for satisfactory operation " ;) :D

[plainman007]

Mr.Rusty > Yes i am currently running the HD Player volume at 50% only. Never gone above that. NEVER. I always figured it might boost the signal too much and add distortion. But next show im going to try out the new channels on the mixer as you suggested. Thanks.

[wensleydale]

i think the amp would do it no problem- we use the 602 and have never had a problem.
keep going....

[plainman007]

But 602 is a much more powerful unit. Im using only a 202.

[wensleydale]

But 602 is a much more powerful unit. Im using only a 202.

but it still should be able to cope with what you are trying to do..

[Excalibur]

but it still should be able to cope with what you are trying to do..

Agreed totally, as I posted earlier. I'm still baffled as to why it doesnt do the job?