License For Laser Use?

[Starlight]

Do you need a license to operate a laser?

Mendoza.

[Vectis]

Not for typical display lasers.

But you DO need to familiarise yourself with health & safety best practise and make sure this is reflected in your risk assessments and method statement; otherwise if anything bad happens (or you get someone 'trying it on' (recent thread on this subject)) then your PLI insurer will have a hard time refusing any claim.

[A1DL]

some useful reading on the subject here:

http://www.lasershowsafety.org/faq.htm

[Starlight]

some useful reading on the subject here:

http://www.lasershowsafety.org/faq.htm

Thanks for the posts. Its put a few doubts in my mind whether to purchase a laser now. I'm contacting my PLI company see what they have to say.

Thank you.

Mendoza.

[nigelwright7557]

Do you need a license to operate a laser?

Mendoza.

I tend to steer away from any equipment that might cause a problem.

i.e. no strobe in case it causes someone a fit.
i.e. lots of gear stacked up that might fall if bumped into by a drunk.

I wont use goal posts for lights as it is a lot of weight high up which is a risk.


A laser should be OK so long as there is no chance people can look right into it.

[sleah]

Do you need a license to operate a laser?

Mendoza.

No. But you must follow the H&S guidelines as mentioned by Vectis.
And I mean MUST.


A laser should be OK so long as there is no chance people can look right into it.

In an ideal world Nigel, you're right. But you just can't base an assessment on wether or not to use one on a statement like that, HSE would hang you out to dry:eek:
The principal is spot on, but it's how you stop anyone being hit by a raw beam, and what you do if it happened - such as the laser head being nudged or some one standing on a table.
These are the things a HSE inspector would be wanting to know, and would stop you using the laser if he wasn't happy with your reply or the set up.
I know, I've been working on gigs where HSE have inspected and threatened to prohibit use of the laser unless we modified the set up.
Luckily we always co-operated and the show went ahead.

[Vectis]

Just to add some meat.

My RA template covers my regular laser setup and states that each laser will be fitted with its over-ride key at all times that it is in use, and that they will be in easy reach of the operator.

In addition, all lasers are wired back to the same mains supply circuit which has a primary master switch within reach of the operator at all times.

Only when I vary from my usual setup for any reason do I need to rethink the templated entry.


:beer1:

[Tom]

Also if you dont go for one of those silly lasers that are 250mw+ then you should be ok.

I might be buying one or teo for my rig but i wont go anything over 100mw (as a single beam). dont see the point.

But then again i do like the prolight cluster thingy and i know thats more than 100mw but with the laser beam being refracted and split up ect its not so bad on the old eye.

[UltraBeat Entertainment]

I do not use lasers in my rig but...

Is it correct that you must postion them above head height and the beam must be above peoples heads and therefore missing the eyes?

[JStewart]

Hi guys,

To answer a few of the questions, as this subject is often surround in mistery...

The lasers that you will want to be using will either be Class 3B or Class 4 lasers. The Classification is decided by the manufacturer and related to the maximum output power that the laser effect can produce. For a Class 3B this power will be between 5mW (milli-Watts) and 500mW. All lasers with more than 500mW are considered as Class 4 lasers.

Now, the light from either of these class of lasers is powerful enough to cause an eye injury in a fraction of a second (we can be talking micro-seconds). The natural blink reflex of the eye typically reacts in one quarter of a second. Therefore, you can see the problem... before the eyelid can take time to close, the laser light has already started to do its harm to the eye. (Not just static beams either).

On a biological level, and damage caused to the eye, is always permanent. Typically anyone suffering an eye injury from a laser effect will probably not “go blind” as might be the first thought that comes to mind, but rather, when the laser does its damage, it can burn tiny lesions in to the back of the inner eye (the retina), which could lead to blind spots appearing in someone’s vision. Depending upon where these appear in the eye, will cause them to be more or less visible.

Thankfully reported cases of actual eye injuries from laser effects are very low. Safety experts however believe that this at the moment is probably down to “public perception”. At the moment, anybody going to a laser show, nightclub, or hiring a mobile disco, does not expect (or are aware) that they can get injured by looking at a lighting effect.

There is an interesting news story on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3644358.stm

The fact these types of lighting effects can be dangerous if not used properly, shouldn’t necessarily put people off using them. What the people do need to be aware of is the hazard and harm that they can cause, and be aware of how to use them safely.

Someone has already mentioned the www.lasershowsafety.org website. (thanks) This does have some useful bits of information on it as a starting point. (Although I would say that, as I put the site together a few years back! (could do with updating when I get the time)).

Official guidance is available from the HSE called HSG95, it costs £10, and is very useful, because this is the same document that the licensing departments use when assessing if a laser installation is safe.

There is also the British Standard which relates the laser product safety called BS/EN 60825-1:2007 (They’ve just released the latest version). Anyone interested in this can read a copy of it at their local library in the reference section (Unless you really want to pay the £160 odd to buy it from BSI).

In the safety standard, and the document from the HSE, it does detail the MPE (Maximum Permissible Exposure) levels, at which looking at a laser light with cause harm. Unfortunately it is not a straight forward process to work out the MPE for a given situation, as it is dependant upon a whole number of factors.

It is possible to use laser lighting effects safety in a mobile disco type setup. Really, I’d suggest that you may be better off going for a more powerful device, so that you can aim it above the crowd, and have it still looking nice and bright. i.e. it’s probably better to use a 100mW+ laser above the dance floor, rather than go for a 30mW, that you need to poke down into the dancers to make it look any good. – Which for the poor sods at the front of the dance floor, is putting them at extra risk.

For anyone that is interested we do run occasional laser safety training courses at our Kent offices http://www.laservisuals.com/training.htm . I hope a few more of the people selling the laser products would take the time to come along and learn about how to make laser effects safe and enjoyable. Unfortunately I’ve often found that the instructions that come with the lasers are woefully inadequate, in terms of safety information. And the sellers, through no fault of their own, are not much more wiser when it comes answering questions about laser safety or how they should be used.

Anyway, hopefully after reading this post, it would have pointed a few more people in the right direction as to the actual situation with lasers, and show people that it is possible to buy these effects, and use them without endangering guests who happen to be dancing in front of the disco setup.

Best regards

James Stewart
Laser Visuals Research Limited

[sleah]

Thank you James. A very informative post. Let's hope people read this and take note.

[Sam]

Reminds me of a little incident that happened at xmas...

Myself and some friend from my old school decided to pop in to our old schools xmas disco for a laugh.. say hello and all that...

Now one of our old classmates was DJing... (he is one of these £50 types...)... who also happens to get on my t*ts because he is one of these people who ask for something and it gets bought for him.. thus i'm sure hee idn't work hard to build up his disco (not that it's that good anyway).. but still annoying if stuff gets bought for some people where as some of us have to pay abck the money borrowed etc.
ANYWAY..

Point being that I noticed his lazer was coming down to about body torso level on me.. eg. way too low and thus as moving around could easily go into peoples eyes..

And it just makes me mad. What is the point in risking it and peoples vision?

But yeh.. I mentioned it to one of the supervisors.. who went to have a chat to him about it... and his reply was that they didn't know what they were talking about and to leave the job to him ...

he then mixed YMCA into a My Chemical Romance song. :confused:

*RANT OVER*

But yes.. need to be careful with lazers :)

[Starlight]

Hi guys,

To answer a few of the questions, as this subject is often surround in mistery...

The lasers that you will want to be using will either be Class 3B or Class 4 lasers. The Classification is decided by the manufacturer and related to the maximum output power that the laser effect can produce. For a Class 3B this power will be between 5mW (milli-Watts) and 500mW. All lasers with more than 500mW are considered as Class 4 lasers.

Now, the light from either of these class of lasers is powerful enough to cause an eye injury in a fraction of a second (we can be talking micro-seconds). The natural blink reflex of the eye typically reacts in one quarter of a second. Therefore, you can see the problem... before the eyelid can take time to close, the laser light has already started to do its harm to the eye. (Not just static beams either).

On a biological level, and damage caused to the eye, is always permanent. Typically anyone suffering an eye injury from a laser effect will probably not “go blind” as might be the first thought that comes to mind, but rather, when the laser does its damage, it can burn tiny lesions in to the back of the inner eye (the retina), which could lead to blind spots appearing in someone’s vision. Depending upon where these appear in the eye, will cause them to be more or less visible.

Thankfully reported cases of actual eye injuries from laser effects are very low. Safety experts however believe that this at the moment is probably down to “public perception”. At the moment, anybody going to a laser show, nightclub, or hiring a mobile disco, does not expect (or are aware) that they can get injured by looking at a lighting effect.

There is an interesting news story on the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3644358.stm

The fact these types of lighting effects can be dangerous if not used properly, shouldn’t necessarily put people off using them. What the people do need to be aware of is the hazard and harm that they can cause, and be aware of how to use them safely.

Someone has already mentioned the www.lasershowsafety.org website. (thanks) This does have some useful bits of information on it as a starting point. (Although I would say that, as I put the site together a few years back! (could do with updating when I get the time)).

Official guidance is available from the HSE called HSG95, it costs £10, and is very useful, because this is the same document that the licensing departments use when assessing if a laser installation is safe.

There is also the British Standard which relates the laser product safety called BS/EN 60825-1:2007 (They’ve just released the latest version). Anyone interested in this can read a copy of it at their local library in the reference section (Unless you really want to pay the £160 odd to buy it from BSI).

In the safety standard, and the document from the HSE, it does detail the MPE (Maximum Permissible Exposure) levels, at which looking at a laser light with cause harm. Unfortunately it is not a straight forward process to work out the MPE for a given situation, as it is dependant upon a whole number of factors.

It is possible to use laser lighting effects safety in a mobile disco type setup. Really, I’d suggest that you may be better off going for a more powerful device, so that you can aim it above the crowd, and have it still looking nice and bright. i.e. it’s probably better to use a 100mW+ laser above the dance floor, rather than go for a 30mW, that you need to poke down into the dancers to make it look any good. – Which for the poor sods at the front of the dance floor, is putting them at extra risk.

For anyone that is interested we do run occasional laser safety training courses at our Kent offices http://www.laservisuals.com/training.htm . I hope a few more of the people selling the laser products would take the time to come along and learn about how to make laser effects safe and enjoyable. Unfortunately I’ve often found that the instructions that come with the lasers are woefully inadequate, in terms of safety information. And the sellers, through no fault of their own, are not much more wiser when it comes answering questions about laser safety or how they should be used.

Anyway, hopefully after reading this post, it would have pointed a few more people in the right direction as to the actual situation with lasers, and show people that it is possible to buy these effects, and use them without endangering guests who happen to be dancing in front of the disco setup.

Best regards

James Stewart
Laser Visuals Research Limited

Hi there, James.

Thanks very very much for an excellent read, it's very reassuring and I'll definitely keep your website in - mind to come and visit 1 of your courses ;) :)

Many thanks,

Mendoza.

[colint]

well done for your input James! it just goes to show the caliber of people that log onto this site!

I think this is very valuable imformation and something that should be included with all laser's that are sold (large or small)

a good few years ago I was very interested in buying a laser system to hire (with me as operator) the system I was looking at was a 2 watt argon unit with a merlin controller, I won't mention the name of the company (they're skint now anyway) but the one thing that really concerned me reading your post was I could have bought the above system without any type of training at all,

it would have been quite clear to them I hadn't a clue how the use it or had used one before but all I had to do was hand over the cash (about £30,000 at the time) and it was mine, they did say they could arrange a training course but I didn't need it to buy the system
the the gent in concern did demonstrate the power of it by lighting a silk cut or the beam though!
Frightning!!!!!

[mr rusty]

I know we don't want too many stickies, but this subject comes up often. We were looking at lasers and after reading all the H&S info decided that we weren't ready for it yet. I think lasers are great when used properly. I also think it is in our interest to make sure that everyone is fully aware of the training/safety issues involved, and can only help to make everyone more professional. Lets face it, it will only take one nutter/incident to come to attention and lasers will get banned, and we don't want that.

[JStewart]

Thanks for the comments. I’m pleased that the post was a worthwhile read.

Colint – yep, there have always been those willing to sell the kit, and not really care too much about the safety. The thing a few years ago was that as you say, someone wanting to buy a Class 4 laser (and even 3B) would have had to have had a large wallet to pay for such a system. So in most cases, someone paying that amount of cash, and seeing what harm a laser could do, would generally show some caution with the kit. Also the fact the kit was normally big, heavy, needed huge amounts of electric and sometimes water to keep it cool, it was obvious to even a novice that there must be something special going on with how the “laser light” is produced.

Nowadays, we have cheap imported lasers, selling for a fraction of the cost, and so small that they can fit in your hand. But the fact remains that (for example) 500mW of old fashioned laser light, is just the same as 500mW of new laser light. The hazard is there still, it is just the way the light is produced that has changed (and quite significantly).

So the concern you mention about the fact that anyone can buy one of these devices is probably even more valid, now that cost is no longer an issue, and add to that, the fact the effects themselves no longer appear to be so dangerous (when compared to a water-cooled, three-phase beast!)

A few years ago there was a big fuss about laser pointers being sold here in the UK. And after a spate of incidents, where bus and train drivers were allegedly injured by youths shining 5mW-10mW devices in there faces, there was a clamp down, and it is now illegal for shops to sell anything above 1mW to the public. A few high profile cases of members of the public being injured at discos or nightclubs could probably lead to similar bans.

Some of the more responsible manufacturers have added extra safety warnings in with the products they sell. But there will always remain the stuff that gets sold with the pigeon English piece of paper, which is supposed to be the “user instructions”, where often the claims about “CE” compliance are little more than just claims.

Still, as I say. Properly used, laser effects can be safe, and my best advice, (apart from getting up to speed with the HSG95 guidance), is to go for something a little bit brighter, so that you don’t have to rely on poking the laser effect downwards into the crowd. And instead can have some nice bright beam effects above the crowd and out of harms way. If the laser effect does not allow you to change the height or width of the overall effect, you can always add a little mask in front of the output window, to stop stray beams from going into specific areas. (this way you don’t have to aim the whole effect up so far in to the ceiling).

Best regards,

James