Darren may be saving more money than he thought [Archive]

Penfold42

16-02-2008, 11:37 AM

It's not that bad an idea... :sofa:

It's not really about the money, just obtaining and filling out a form will deter a lot of people. I mean, really, if the government were only thinking about their money pot, they'd want everyone to smoke!

I think sometimes people are too quick to pounce on any proposal from the government?

What a load of tosh.........

The government only do things for themselves...sorry but that's how i see it.

You go to work and earn money...you get taxed on that money...the rest is yours to do fit how you want...well after the wife has had her say so....:D :D :D ...now the government what to 'dictate' how you spend that.....:confused: ........:)

rob1963

16-02-2008, 11:38 AM

I just heard that on the radio. What a ridiculous thing.

They are saying that it will help people give up as they won't want to pay £10 for a license.

Right......£6 a pack and they won't want to buy a £10 license.

Another tax from Big Brother.

Agreed.

The chairman of "Health England" who proposed the idea says it would make a big difference to the number of people giving up. That's complete toilet.

A 20 a day smoker spends around £2,000 a year on their habit.

Increasing that to £2,010 would make no difference whatsoever.

BeerFunk

16-02-2008, 11:41 AM

I think people are missing the point! :rolleyes: :lol:

The £10 may as well be £1 - it probably just covers administrative costs.

Before you can pass judgement on a new proposal, you should take the time to read, and understand the reasoning behind it.

Danno13

16-02-2008, 11:44 AM

Sounds a good idea.. but I think you should have to "qualify" to get a license..

i.e. don't give them to people on benefits for no genuine reason, or people on their third heart attack.. lung transplant :D etc.

:sofa:

rob1963

16-02-2008, 11:50 AM

It's not that bad an idea...

Yes it is...it's absolutely ridiculous.

It's not really about the money, just obtaining and filling out a form will deter a lot of people.

Of course it won't.

If people are addicted to cigarettes and a permit is introduced, how many do you think will REALLY say "That's it. I'm giving up. There's no way I'll spend a few minutes filling out a form just so I can carry on smoking"?

I think sometimes people are too quick to pounce on any proposal from the government?

Usually, people are only quick to pounce on a proposal by the government when it's absolutely pathetic.

CRAZY K

16-02-2008, 11:50 AM

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

What next a tax to drink beer........the world's gone mad.......:daft:

So when smoking been so heavily taxed.........what are they going to aim at next....

Gone mad?

No its just the idiots in charge currently who ought to be sectioned sooner than later.

Ill propose it--anyone second that:D

CRAZY K

rob1963

16-02-2008, 11:55 AM

Gone mad?

No its just the idiots in charge currently who ought to be sectioned sooner than later.

Ill propose it--anyone second that:D

CRAZY K

Seconded!

:D :D :D

Vectis

16-02-2008, 11:57 AM

An underhand way to introduce a 2-tier health service methinks?

Applying for a smoking permit = demotion to division two?

Wouldn't put it past them...

(opinion of a non-smoker with private healthcare)

Solitaire Events Ltd

16-02-2008, 11:58 AM

It's not really about the money, just obtaining and filling out a form will deter a lot of people.

How will it deter people - all you do is get your mate who has a license to go and get them for you!

rob1963

16-02-2008, 12:08 PM

Since when did having to fill in a form ever stop people applying for anything?

Think about it.

How many people here do not have a bank account, credit card, debit card, overdraft, loan, passport, mortgage, driving licence, home insurance, public liability insurance or anything else.....PURELY because they didn't want to fill in a form?

I'd be very interested to know!

Tony Scott

16-02-2008, 12:13 PM

How will it deter people - all you do is get your mate who has a license to go and get them for you!

Good point, I think the idea is crazy..........It will cost millions to get up & running just to be scrapped in two years time as un-workable!

Never smoked myself but if one want's to that's ones choice, just don't do it near me! :D

Danno13

16-02-2008, 12:26 PM

Solitaire Events Ltd

16-02-2008, 12:29 PM

Just had another thought - will this not help to stop people from starting smoking in the first place?

I mean, most people start of just smoking a few a week/month.. whereas if you had to apply for a license first its kind of making a commitment to be "a smoker"...

I refer the honourable gentleman to my answer moments ago.:D

all you do is get your mate who has a license to go and get them for you!

BeerFunk

16-02-2008, 06:43 PM

How will it deter people - all you do is get your mate who has a license to go and get them for you!
There is a difference between deterring people, and stopping them completely. There is no doubt that less people will smoke if this plan is put into practice - the question is, is it really worth it? Possibly not, but at least they're making an attempt.

Since when did having to fill in a form ever stop people applying for anything?

Think about it.

How many people here do not have a bank account, credit card, debit card, overdraft, loan, passport, mortgage, driving licence, home insurance, public liability insurance or anything else.....PURELY because they didn't want to fill in a form?

I'd be very interested to know!Rob, your arguments are so far off the mark, it actually makes me smile! :)

How can you directly compare applying for a passport or signing up for a mortage, to applying for a permit to buy tobacco?! :lol:

rob1963

16-02-2008, 07:21 PM

Rob, your arguments are so far off the mark, it actually makes me smile! :)

How can you directly compare applying for a passport or signing up for a mortage, to applying for a permit to buy tobacco?! :lol:

Beerfunk,

With all due respect, my arguments are not off the mark at all, regardless of whether you think my examples were good ones or not.

My point remains...if someone is addicted to cigarettes, there is no way that they would suddenly give up rather than spend a few minutes filling in a form.

I should know...because I was a smoker for over 25 years. What about you?

If the permit had been introduced when I was still a smoker, I would have filled in the form, paid my £10, and carried on smoking exactly as before.

Here's another point for you to think about:

There is press release from the Tobacco Alliance on 15th August 2007 which you can read here: http://www.tobaccoalliance.org.uk/tanews/prarchive.cfm?PressReleaseID=84

This states: "The trade in smuggled and counterfeit tobacco products causes a loss to the Treasury of more than £2.6 billion each year – more than £7 million each day – money which could be spent on schools, hospitals and other public services, according to HMRC."

If a £10 permit was introduced which made legitimate smoking more awkward & expensive, what do you think would happen to the smuggled & counterfeit trade?

Common sense suggests it would increase, which means that the £2.6 billion in revenue which the treasury already loses each year would go even higher!

Solitaire Events Ltd

16-02-2008, 07:56 PM

Possibly not, but at least they're making an attempt.

You call that an attempt?

I call it a PR excercise and an attempt to con the British public that they are doing something about it, where as it is a rather pathetic and back door attempt to license the public on yet another thing.

What's next? Alcohol?

Penfold42

16-02-2008, 08:03 PM

I call it a PR excercise and an attempt to con the British public that they are doing something about it, where as it is a rather pathetic and back door attempt to license the public on yet another thing.
:agree:

What's next? Alcohol?

What next a tax to drink beer........the world's gone mad.......:daft:

...or even laughter.....if fact anything......maybe nookie next.....at least we won't get charged that much........:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

rob1963

16-02-2008, 08:13 PM

You call that an attempt?

I call it a PR excercise and an attempt to con the British public that they are doing something about it, where as it is a rather pathetic and back door attempt to license the public on yet another thing.

What's next? Alcohol?

:agree:

No doubt Beerfunk thinks we should also need to apply for a permit before we can buy alcohol, foods with a high fat content, sweets & gawd knows what else!

Penfold42

16-02-2008, 08:17 PM

....or buy caps for a cap gun when your 16.....sorry for drifting....but that's got to be the biggest laugh out!!

rob1963

16-02-2008, 08:22 PM

....or buy caps for a cap gun when your 16.....sorry for drifting....but that's got to be the biggest laugh out!!

Exactly!

Caps are cool though...I remember my brother & I used to buy them for 1p a go (it WAS over 30 years ago!), unroll them & rub a coin over them on the lino in our bedroom to make a big flash.....happy days!

:D

Penfold42

16-02-2008, 08:28 PM

Exactly!

Caps are cool though...I remember my brother & I used to buy them for 1p a go (it WAS over 30 years ago!), unroll them & rub a coin over them on the lino in our bedroom to make a big flash.....happy days!

:D

Happy days...did the same....use to place an old penny under then and hit them with a hammer.....BANG!......

Sorry off topic...
Spoke to the MD tonight and she gave me a right filthy look...(she smokes)...her comments...'They can get :Censored: '............:eek: :eek: :eek:

My wife does not swear that often......:D :D :D :D

Vectis

16-02-2008, 09:17 PM

Spoke to the MD tonight ... ...(she smokes)...

Urgh! I think I'd try to claim on the warranty as it's obviously defective. Try and get a new one :D

colint

16-02-2008, 10:44 PM

If our wonderful goverment are so concerned about our health why don't they just ban them altogether? ah! think how much revenue they would lose, best just slap a tax/fine/licence fee on it then eh? some thing's are never going to change are they?

I heard a whisper from someone from VOSA that the m.o.t system is going to be next on the list £100 for normal cars £200-£300 for anthing large/sporty/4X4 etc

and with both road tax & petrol duty due to go up! thats really going to help the ozone layer init?

PropellerHeadCase

17-02-2008, 01:20 AM

Urgh! I think I'd try to claim on the warranty as it's obviously defective. Try and get a new one :D

:Laugh: I think I just wet myself :eek:

If our wonderful goverment are so concerned about our health why don't they just ban them altogether? ah! think how much revenue they would lose, best just slap a tax/fine/licence fee on it then eh? some thing's are never going to change are they?

I think it has rather more to do with the effect that such a ban would have on the crime rate - lesson learned from prohibition, methinks.

I heard a whisper from someone from VOSA that the m.o.t system is going to be next on the list £100 for normal cars £200-£300 for anthing large/sporty/4X4 etc

Making hybrid and fuel-cell alternatives available more quickly and cheaper would be a better move, I think.

What they SHOULD do is levy taxes on vehicle mods like lowering, hydraulics and such, those are the vehicles that pollute indiscriminately because they are driven in a manner which disproportionately raises the emission levels for distance travelled, not the vans that are actually used for work (ahem).

and with both road tax & petrol duty due to go up! thats really going to help the ozone layer init?

It probably will, actually, just not to the degree that the politicians would hope.

BeerFunk

17-02-2008, 03:44 AM

My point remains...if someone is addicted to cigarettes, there is no way that they would suddenly give up rather than spend a few minutes filling in a form.!It's not just a few minutes though, is it? You most likely have to send it with other documents, which you might have to go and photocopy, or if they're originals - you might have to send via registered post, which would mean queuing at the post office...

I should know...because I was a smoker for over 25 years. What about you?It's really unlikely to have much effect on heavy/long term smokers, no-one said the plan was to eradicate smoking completely.

I'm not really in favour of the plans - in fact, I couldn't care less. I'm quite sure everyone know the risks of smoking these days, and if they still choose to do it, then there's little you can do to help them. So long as they stay away from me when they're smoking.

You call that an attempt?

I call it a PR excercise and an attempt to con the British public that they are doing something about it, where as it is a rather pathetic and back door attempt to license the public on yet another thing.

What's next? Alcohol?
So the government has done nothing to discourage people from smoking, is that what you mean? It's now banned in public venues across the UK, advertising tobacco is virtually impossible in the UK now, there are health warnings on every pack of cigarettes, and a strong anti-smoking campaign funded by the government.

What more do you want them to do?

Every time a law is passed or changed, certain people never fail to start grumbling about 'their rights', 'big brother' etc etc... without stopping to think - 'Wait a minute, does this benefit me or not? And if not, does it benefit the majority of the population?'

Oh, and I wouldn't mind having to purchase a license to buy alcohol as it happens, things like this aren't worth worrying about - just do it and get on with things :)

colint

17-02-2008, 08:59 AM

:Laugh: I think I just wet myself :eek:

I think it has rather more to do with the effect that such a ban would have on the crime rate - lesson learned from prohibition, methinks.

Making hybrid and fuel-cell alternatives available more quickly and cheaper would be a better move, I think.

What they SHOULD do is levy taxes on vehicle mods like lowering, hydraulics and such, those are the vehicles that pollute indiscriminately because they are driven in a manner which disproportionately raises the emission levels for distance travelled, not the vans that are actually used for work (ahem).

It probably will, actually, just not to the degree that the politicians would hope.

All the smoking ban seems to have achived so far is to cause a lot of the pubs/clubs to close because people don't go there anymore
it has also incresed litter with cig butts just about everywhere you care to look
the crime rate over here is already to high and a lot of places are not safe to walk in of a night and to add to that now we have drunks standing outside pubs smoking & causing trouble to people walking by, at least before it was contained inside the pubs.

hybrid and fuel-cell alternatives will be ok untill they put that up too! look whats happened to eco-derv? (duty now applied)

Tuning a car makes it use less fuel when driven properly my previous car was a 400bhp sierra cosworth that did around 30 to the gallon unless I put my foot right down, I didn't tear around all the time in it because I'd spent so much money on it I didn't want to wreck it (& the same applys to most people that drive proper modified cars)

nothing the goverment has done with charging cash has made any vast change to the traffic in london it's still a hell hole to drive in and it also has 3 major airports around it which churn out all sorts of nasty stuff at the rate of a 747 every 1-2 minutes
So what effect does it have charging a lorry £200 to enter within the M25?

rob1963

17-02-2008, 11:00 AM

Beerfunk,

Yesterday you thought the plans for a new permit were a good idea.

Today you're saying you are NOT in favour of them & you couldn't care less!

Will your opinion change again tomorrow?

To be honest, you've confused me. I have no idea what you REALLY think of these plans, and I'm not even sure if YOU do!

Candybeatdiscos

17-02-2008, 12:07 PM

Sod this, we need someone to stand up to the goverment, possibly overthrow them ......

i volunteer

Shaun

17-02-2008, 12:20 PM

Go get 'em Garry. :d

http://www.neaca.com/images/Dupont_Superfine_Black_Powder_Can_1_.JPG http://www.ivys-stuff.com/BigBenParliment.jpg

Corabar Steve

17-02-2008, 12:36 PM

http://recollectionbooks.com/bleed/images/BB/fawkes.jpg

I think the French had the right idea.

When they tried to ban smoking in public places there was a mass demo. At the precise time the law came into place the entire adult population (more or less) lit up, including many non smokers as a point of principal about the erosion of civil liberties.

colint

17-02-2008, 12:36 PM

Cool a revolt, that'll brighten up sunday afternoon a bit!

BeerFunk

17-02-2008, 12:56 PM

Beerfunk,

Yesterday you thought the plans for a new permit were a good idea.Incorrect again, Rob. All I said was, and I quote..

it's not that bad an idea...

I was just highlighting the other side of the argument, as I made the observation that no-one was reasoning.

Today you're saying you are NOT in favour of them & you couldn't care less!

Will your opinion change again tomorrow?Wrong again... :rolleyes:

When exactly did I say I was not in favour? :confused:

I thought I made my viewpoint clear enough - I'm not bothered either way.

I'm not really in favour of the plans - in fact, I couldn't care less....as in, I don't care whether they pass this or not, as it would have negligible effect on me. The only reason I put arguments forward for the plans, was because no-one else was - which is the norm whenever it comes to the government :D

Rob, if you're going to quote me, use the quote button rather than just writing what you wanted me to say :)

Jiggles

17-02-2008, 01:17 PM

I think i have just been fined for sneezing!

robbiedj

17-02-2008, 01:53 PM

Sod this, we need someone to stand up to the goverment, possibly overthrow them ......

i volunteer

If you need any tips just pm Callum. :sj:

rob1963

17-02-2008, 03:30 PM

Rob, if you're going to quote me, use the quote button rather than just writing what you wanted me to say :)

Ok, and if you're going to respond to points I raise, respond to ALL of them rather than just the ones you think you have an answer to!

:rolleyes:

BeerFunk

17-02-2008, 04:55 PM

Ok, and if you're going to respond to points I raise, respond to ALL of them rather than just the ones you think you have an answer to!

:rolleyes:
I'm not sure what you mean, you mean I have to respond to every single sentence you've posted, or none at all? :confused:

I've only responded to the relevant points, rather than the sarcastic and nonsensical posts like this, which aren't even worth a reply..

No doubt Beerfunk thinks we should also need to apply for a permit before we can buy alcohol, foods with a high fat content, sweets & gawd knows what else!

PropellerHeadCase

17-02-2008, 04:55 PM

Tuning a car makes it use less fuel when driven properly my previous car was a 400bhp sierra cosworth that did around 30 to the gallon unless I put my foot right down, I didn't tear around all the time in it because I'd spent so much money on it I didn't want to wreck it (& the same applys to most people that drive proper modified cars)

I made specific reference to lowering and hydraulics - two things that have no effect on performance, at least not in the manner you are referring to, and can be fairly certainly pinned on chavs and their ilk who will be driving around trying to get a hook-up, doing burn-outs or just generally showing off.

rob1963

17-02-2008, 05:13 PM

I've only responded to the relevant points

The relevant points, or the ones you think you have an answer to?

I notice you quoted a couple of my points in the first part of my post #19...

...but made no mention of what I said in the second half of that post (in relation to what effect a permit would have on the illegal cigarette trade & how much more revenue the government would lose).

:rolleyes:

Corabar Steve

17-02-2008, 05:16 PM

Now now children:handbag: :Naughty:

Solitaire Events Ltd

17-02-2008, 05:26 PM

So anyway, is this thread even supposed to be here?

20. Political discussion not directly related to Disco & karaoke issues are prohibited, as are religious debates

So, who started this one then? :sj:

rob1963

17-02-2008, 05:29 PM

:Laugh:

BeerFunk

17-02-2008, 05:31 PM

Rob, I deliberately didn't answer the point about the 'lost revenue', as I thought it was going off on a tangent, and was getting very speculative.

In terms of the revenue, I don't believe it really matters if the government loses revenue from cigarette sales. They can increase duty and tax on other products or services. And of course, the strain on the NHS will be relieved slightly, and as everyone knows - the NHS budget is a long term issue. I think with Gordon Brown in charge, the economy will remain very stable regardless, for the next couple of decades at least.

Anyway, going slightly off topic - I do believe we are not supposed to discuss politics (as confirmed by Darren), which is why I was reluctant to answer this point :sorry: :offtopic: