Noise at work regulations

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

NOISE AT WORK REGS -FROM APRIL 2008
This new law came in on 6th April 2008 and is best explained by the following piece of info taken from the SEDA (http://www.seda.org.uk/)website.

Exposure to levels above 85 db require everyone in the room who is there working( DJ, bar staff & venue staff ) to wear hearing protection. Noise level is measured at the DJ position, if no other staff in the room. Noise level measured at both DJ position and at bar or staff positions, if in the same room.

Freelance DJ's are responsible for obtaining their own hearing protection and using it. Venues employing DJ's directly will need to supply DJ's with hearing protection and make sure it is worn. Agencies, and DJ's employing DJ's will need to supply hearing protection for them all individually, and make sure it is worn.

Keep a record of volume levels, measured at DJ position and on dancefloor, at intervals throughout the gig (use c-weighting setting)

Any thoughts?

[DazzyD]

I may be a bit thick here but how do we measure and keep records of noise levels? I have a friend who is an environmental officer for the local council. She does noise abatement studies and uses the recording gear. Wonder if the council will let her loan it to me? Can't see it somehow.

As for ear protection, wouldn't full-cup headphones :headphones: go some way to reducing the impact of the noise from the speakers? As long as they weren't turned up too high themselves I can't see it being too much of a problem. But then again, I can't say I know how loud 85dB is! (going to google it!).....

:run:



:richie:



.....(back now!)

Apparently, 85dB is the volume of busy city traffic but not as loud as a hairdryer (source: http://www.musicworks.co.nz/Page.php?page=3&item=62).

So, putting this in to practice, if you can't hear women drying their hair at the back of the room over your speakers then you're too loud. :D Interesting!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I may be a bit thick here but how do we measure and keep records of noise levels?

I've just bought one of these (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110240865432)to test how loud I actually play.

[Excalibur]

NOISE AT WORK REGS -FROM APRIL 2008
This new law came in on 6th April 2008 and is best explained by the following piece of info taken from the SEDA (http://www.seda.org.uk/)website.

Exposure to levels above 85 db require everyone in the room who is there working( DJ, bar staff & venue staff ) to wear hearing protection. Noise level is measured at the DJ position, if no other staff in the room. Noise level measured at both DJ position and at bar or staff positions, if in the same room.

Freelance DJ's are responsible for obtaining their own hearing protection and using it. Venues employing DJ's directly will need to supply DJ's with hearing protection and make sure it is worn. Agencies, and DJ's employing DJ's will need to supply hearing protection for them all individually, and make sure it is worn.

Keep a record of volume levels, measured at DJ position and on dancefloor, at intervals throughout the gig (use c-weighting setting)

Any thoughts?

None you can print on here!;) :D

[DazzyD]

I used to have a gimicky sound-effect karaoke mic that looked like that. The buttons were for sound effects such as people clapping and cheering, machine gun, etc. If a crowd didn't applaud me after a song, I could press the buttons and make myself feel better!

Seriously, though, I didn't even know you could buy this stuff. That's my fact learned for the day.

[Tom]

I agree with this. I think any disco is over 85db but only when the function/event is in full swing.

But what gets me is if the guests see the bar staff and dj wearing hearing protection wont the guests want it aswell???

As us DJ's and staff of venues who have loud music regulary we need to look after our ears are we are exposed to loud music a lot more than to the average person (not including live bands and people within that area of work for example).


EDIT


And for DazyD......Maplins. :lol:

[CRAZY K]

NOISE AT WORK REGS -FROM APRIL 2008
This new law came in on 6th April 2008 and is best explained by the following piece of info taken from the SEDA (http://www.seda.org.uk/)website.

Exposure to levels above 85 db require everyone in the room who is there working( DJ, bar staff & venue staff ) to wear hearing protection. Noise level is measured at the DJ position, if no other staff in the room. Noise level measured at both DJ position and at bar or staff positions, if in the same room.

Freelance DJ's are responsible for obtaining their own hearing protection and using it. Venues employing DJ's directly will need to supply DJ's with hearing protection and make sure it is worn. Agencies, and DJ's employing DJ's will need to supply hearing protection for them all individually, and make sure it is worn.

Keep a record of volume levels, measured at DJ position and on dancefloor, at intervals throughout the gig (use c-weighting setting)

Any thoughts?

Darren, do you know which premises and functions this applies to?

Is it like Phonographic Performance where there are certain exclusions like Weddings etc.

The biggest PROBLEM is--whats it doing to the punters if its dangerous for the DJ and Bar staff not to have ear defenders :confused:

This suggests there can be potential claims from the public for ear disorders caused by listening over the " limit"

The Lawyers will be working on this as we speak--Bring on the Ambulance chasers please :(

Next surely theres going to be an upper limit of noise at ALL functions.

I wonder whose idea this is---im sure I have no idea :bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K

[DazzyD]

When Darren posted this thread, tom, I did a bit of quick research in to the reasons behind this piece of legislation. It would seem that there's been some research which suggests that being exposed to noise levels above 85dB for "long periods of time and regularly" may cause "permanent hearing loss over time". There's a thing going on on another thread about IPods. I've found out that an IPod can reach 125dB. If the "safe" level is 85dB it makes IPods a worrying thought.

But let's not get this out of proportion. The legislation is not suggesting that we turn the volume down. It's just saying that we need to think (and do) more to protect our hearing. In simple terms, it's a way to cut out future compensation claims from workers who've developed hearing problems from just carrying out their jobs.

I do, however, see a big problem for us DJs from an increase in the number of venues installing AVLs(automatic volume limiters). This would be my worst nightmare!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Guys, this is a noise at work law, for workers and staff, not for people out on the town or guests at weddings.

[kilmeedyman]

There is certainly a lot of education to be done. This is obvious just from the different questions on DJ forums about this very subject.

Venue managers are going to need to understand the regulations as well as we are but if they decide volume limiters are the way forward for them, they will need to understand where the receivers should be sited in order to perform according to the new regs and protect their staff.

A lot more talking about this to be done for sure. Hope the presentation and Q&A session at the NADJ show might help clear some of it up. Gonna be an interesting year it seems.

[Paul James Promotions]

85db is stupid. At the weekend, i monitored our levels, and we were running over 90db during background music.

[kilmeedyman]

Jamie - it really does depend where you took the measurement. Remember it needs to be taken at the points where people are working.

It's your hearing and once its gone, its gone - just ask Frankie Wilde. Too many older DJs I know tilt their head at every conversation trying to hear what's going on.

[Tom]

So after looking at this all we need is a hifi or a large class-d speaker system. JOKE :lol:

http://harada-sound.com/sound/handbook/soundspl.gif

[Paul James Promotions]

Jamie - it really does depend where you took the measurement. Remember it needs to be taken at the points where people are working.


At the control area.

As I understand it, it's mainly distortion that causes hearing damage, not SPL.

[sleah]

Next surely theres going to be an upper limit of noise at ALL functions.


Crazy, the regulations does apply to ALL functions! That's the point.
If there is someone working, then it applies.
In fact, the entertainment industry have been exempt for the last two years in order for them to prepare, which, like with the smoking ban, few have.
Forward thinking venues/employers will have already taken the regs on board and will have systems in place to comply.
As freelance DJ's, we really should have done the same; i.e. found out how the regulations will affect us and prepared for them.
Unfortunately there has been little useful information as to exactly how this is all going to pan out and work in practice for mobile DJ's, so I think we can be forgiven for just waiting to see what happens.

The regs are a good idea in principal, I for one have noticed my hearing deteriorate in no small part due to gigging, but heaven knows how it's going to work in practice!!!

[DazzyD]

Darren, do you know which premises and functions this applies to?

Next surely theres going to be an upper limit of noise at ALL functions.



Agreeing with Sleah, it does seem to be applicable to all workplaces (and that includes all of the venues that we work, in turn covering all functions that we do with the exception, possibly, of outdoor events but I'm going to look in to this properly).

What I don't think it is about is putting an upper volume limit on things. It's about establishing a "safe level" of 85dB which has been the accepted norm for sometime anyway and helping to protect workers in those environments where noise level is expected to exceed this safe level "for long periods and on a regular basis". There is no suggestion that 90dB lasting a few hours on a one-off basis causes lasting harm but this level lasting for 5 hours four times a week every week can be dangerous.

I know how important our hearing is to us as I have deaf friends and my brother lost his hearing in his early teens (through no fault of his own I might add - IPods weren't invented then!). Once it's gone it's gone for good.

[Have a disco]

Notification of this law/regs was in the publican directly a week after the smoking ban was implimented. these regs are for the workers health and safety. yet again we will be upon the end of the repercussions of the sound limiters??? OH JOY

[Richard Veal]

As I See it my worst nightmare has been realised.
Every venue will have a noise limiter installed - 1st to be done will be town halls and council buildings followed by the hotels.

[soundtracker]

Our Town Hall has had a limiter for the last 5 years - never caused a problem, then again I play to the dance floor, not try to fill the whole room with sound.

[Richard Veal]

depends how well they are installed IMO. I have had halls where a simple cheer and round of applause have cut everything out, Others where your ok with music at a good volume but cant use the mic in a enthusiastic mannor and others (2 spring to mind) where I can play at full tilt all night with no bother

[Corabar Steve]

The biggest PROBLEM is--whats it doing to the punters if its dangerous for the DJ and Bar staff not to have ear defenders :confused: Not as much, as they presumeably wouldn't be exposed to it anywhere near as regularly as venue staff or DJs

[Corabar Steve]

What is the actual law / act called? (Name number date etc) Angela wants to cast a legal eye over it.

[soundtracker]

I've been DJing since the 80s and can still hear perfectly well thank you very much!

I can't................pardon!

[A1DL]

completely as an aside, I wonder if awareness of this legislation will finally educate those DJs who go on about speaker capabilities in watts to start talking in db instead?

[A1DL]

That's a good point. As many of us know, it's not a case of how many thousand watts your system can pump out, its about how good the sound is and if it sounds nice 'n' clear and is loud enough at the dance floor, there's no need (as omeone else pointed out) to reach every part of the building we're playing in.

it's all about efficiency.

If one box needs 1,000w to produce 100db and another needs just 200w to produce 100db at the same point of measurement, which would you rather use?

I have a fan heater under my desk which is rated at 2kw, it's been on for a couple of hours, but my feet are still cold. Inefficient yes.... but hey, it's been pumping out 2k man, which is mega (innit) :cool: :D

[DazzyD]

depends how well they are installed IMO. I have had halls where a simple cheer and round of applause have cut everything out

Totally agree. I did a wedding in a pretty popular venue in Sunderland. The AVL was right behind me about a foot off the floor but it wasn't my gear that was causing the problems. They had highly polished laminate flooring right across the room. It was a sit-down wedding meal before the disco and people getting up out of their chairs were scrapping them over the floor and the noise was sending the AVL hysterical.

We all know about bypassing AVLs by plugging in outside the function room but I'm wondering if this law will be amended to make this practice illegal. Not that I would do anything so naughty, mind! :angel:

[Excalibur]

Just another angle, would the regulations apply to self employed people? I do know that we are allowed to do certain things which employees are not.:confused: :confused:

[djsteve10]

The club where i DJ (Oceana) has brought this into seriously into action and i have to wear ear plugs when i am not using the headphones to cue up, I have also now started to wear my noise cancelling ear plugs when out on the road at big functions as it is my ears that need to last me for my jobs worth!

[CRAZY K]

Not as much, as they presumeably wouldn't be exposed to it anywhere near as regularly as venue staff or DJs

Generally yes- but I would guess theres enthusiastic clubbers out there getting as much exposure as some DJs and staff :eek:

Unless there are Discos 7 nights a week--

CRAZY K

[Excalibur]

Generally yes- but I would guess theres enthusiastic clubbers out there getting as much exposure as some DJs and staff :eek:

Unless there are Discos 7 nights a week--

CRAZY K

But isnt the salient point that punters are not at work?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

But isnt the salient point that punters are not at work?

Yes.

[CRAZY K]

Our Town Hall has had a limiter for the last 5 years - never caused a problem, then again I play to the dance floor, not try to fill the whole room with sound.

My problem is actually playing in small halls with limiters which are set off continually by the audience clapping and cheering.

Its a major problem.

The Hall owners dont think about it--and dont care either.

I try to always avoid those kind of gigs now--its just plain embarrassing and frustrating.

I did mention this earlier on and I think a few people agree-sound limiters will be coming in one way or another--it would be so typical of EU/ Brussels

Interfering with things they dont understand properly--nothing new then:eek: :eek: :eek:

CRAZY K

[CRAZY K]

But isnt the salient point that punters are not at work?

Of course but they still go deaf--:eek:

Im just countering Steves point that DJs/Bar Staff are more likely to be affected in general--BUT some regular Disco punters will be affected.

All of which makes no sense unless we start talking sound limiters:(

Im not going there :bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K

[robbiedj]

But the punters are there by choice, employees are not, it's their job.

As for self-employed, if you have hearing problems caused by your work, you will have to sue yourself! :D

I wonder if PLI would pay out? :whistle:

[pdarnett]

Worked at a venue last weekend where the limiter was set to exactly 85db (council owned) and a guy walking across the floor in hard shoes was enough to trip it out !! The one LED par i had plugged into it went off for at least 30 seconds. The sockets 5m away were not affected.

[HaiFai]

I may sound a bit stupid here but how do the sound limiters affect if they are not in the p.a. I have worked in various venues which have them in line in the p.a which decreased or cut out the sound if it reached a certain limit.Does the one pdarnett decribe actually cut power to the mains supply?

[spin mobile disco]

Yep, noise goes over the mains sockets are tripped. Very annoying. I refuse to comply with sound limiters as it can cause damage to delicate equipment. Any half decent Dj can monitor the volume of their equipment anyway . The amonut of times bar staff ask me turn it up so they can hear the music as well.

[CRAZY K]

But the punters are there by choice, employees are not, it's their job.

As for self-employed, if you have hearing problems caused by your work, you will have to sue yourself! :D

I wonder if PLI would pay out? :whistle:

Agreed Robbie that this is for employee protection--

Looking randomly at some web sites however I found this which raises a point about Excaliburs question--does this apply to self Employed persons--

read this bit-- which comes from here

http://www.healthandsafetytips.co.uk/Articles/Noise_at_Work.htm


Changes from Previous Noise Regulations
The Regulations impose duties on employers and on self-employed persons to protect both employees who may be exposed to risk from exposure to noise at work and other persons at work who might be affected by that work.

Reduced threshold for hearing protection and training.
Reduced threshold for introducing noise control.
Introduce daily exposure limit value.
Permit weekly average.
Emphasis on consultation between employers, employees and reps.
Requirements for health surveillance and hearing testing (at 85dB).

Soooooooooooo does this mean we have to warn the Employer of staff that their staff will be in a "danger zone" and that ear defenders should be worn.

Some guidance notes for self employed Musicans and DJs would be useful, or did I miss that?

CRAZY K

[HaiFai]

Yep, noise goes over the mains sockets are tripped. Very annoying. I refuse to comply with sound limiters as it can cause damage to delicate equipment. Any half decent Dj can monitor the volume of their equipment anyway . The amonut of times bar staff ask me turn it up so they can hear the music as well.

I haven't come across them yet and would refuse to do venue as I agree some equipment is sensitive.I have come across a few year ago afew venues which had a light system i had to watch green-okay amber acceptable , red -turn down wasn't connected to mains or equipment was just a guide.

I get the same often by bar and crowd to turn up-maybe I'm getting old to early:D

[Richard Veal]

We all know about bypassing AVLs by plugging in outside the function room but I'm wondering if this law will be amended to make this practice illegal. :

I got banned from a certain village hall for doing exactly that. :(

silly boy

[Jaggiebunnett]

I was a regular in this Club which was close to a block of flats and they got many complaints and the club had to install this monitoring system which the power to the booth was connected to.
So...if the little yellow light on top of the box on the wall flashed more than 3 times in a 30 second period the power would be cut:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Tom]

I know its not fair but they are in place for a reason.

There is a small local irish club where I usually do the family discos and other events and they have limiter also. To be fair its ok, I mean I have to turn my bass down a bit but its loud enough.

[Corabar Steve]

Generally yes- but I would guess theres enthusiastic clubbers out there getting as much exposure as some DJs and staff :eek:
Er...


But isnt the salient point that punters are not at work?Um...


Yes.
Indeed

Of course but they still go deaf--:eek:

Im just countering Steves point that DJs/Bar Staff are more likely to be affected in general--BUT some regular Disco punters will be affected.

All of which makes no sense unless we start talking sound limiters:(

Im not going there :bang: :bang: :bang:

Um..

But the punters are there by choice, employees are not, it's their job.
What he said


As far as Angela can see, it's all about employers liability to employees.

Anyone choosing to enter such an environment (guests / punters, whatever) does not count.

As for self employed DJs, what are you going to do? Sue yourselves?

In short the affected parties are venues, multi ops & other subcontractors such as caterers / mobile casinos etc, who have staff present during the time that the noise is at these levels (who would have to ensure their staff are protected) (I bet Badger is glad he's a one man band now) & even then Whoop de do, we've got to buy some earplugs for our DJs, hardly going to break the bank is it?

Even if a DJ works for you on a subcontracted basis the emphasis is on them to protect themselves, as it only applies to somebody directly under your employ.

I'll see If I can get a clearer worded version of that from Angela later.

[Corabar Steve]

Right, from Angela. (including advice from HSE)

(Sorry the copy & paste mucked up some of the formatting)


Noise at Work Regulations 2005



Came into force for music and entertainment industry on 6 April 2008



Only relates to employers duty to employees: no duty to members of the public who chose to visit a noisy place.



Therefore, only duty for most DJs will be to themselves, unless you employ someone – then you will have a duty to them.



In reality, in most cases, the noise levels BEHIND the decks may not even reach the levels mentioned in the legislation, but in any event, can be simply complied with by supplying ear plugs, making sure employees know how to use them (and periodically checking that they are wearing them), and instructing employees about the risk to their hearing of high noise levels



Extracts from the HSE Leaflet "Guidance for employers on the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005" (Full leaflet can be found at http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg362.pdf)

The Regulations require you as an employer to:

* Assess the risks to your employees from noise at work;
take action to reduce the noise exposure that produces those risks;
provide your employees with hearing protection if you cannot reduce the noise exposure enough by using other methods;
* Make sure the legal limits on noise exposure are not exceeded;
provide your employees with information, instruction and training;
carry out health surveillance where there is a risk to health.

The Regulations do not apply to:

* Members of the public exposed to noise from their non-work activities, or making an informed choice to go to noisy places;
*Low-level noise which is a nuisance but causes no risk of hearing damage.

Noise levels

What are the action levels and limit values?

The Noise Regulations require you to take specific action at certain action values.

These relate to:

the levels of exposure to noise of your employees averaged over a working day or week; and
the maximum noise (peak sound pressure) to which employees are exposed in a working day.

The values are:

lower exposure action values:
– daily or weekly exposure of 80 dB;

– peak sound pressure of 135 dB;

upper exposure action values:
– daily or weekly exposure of 85 dB;

– peak sound pressure of 137 dB.

There are also levels of noise exposure which must not be exceeded:

· exposure limit values:

– daily or weekly exposure of 87 dB;

– peak sound pressure of 140 dB.

These exposure limit values take account of any reduction in exposure provided by hearing protection.

Risk assessment

You will need to assess the risks to decide whether any further action is needed, and plan how you will do it.

The aim of the risk assessment is to help you decide what you need to do to ensure the health and safety of your employees who are exposed to noise. It is more than just taking measurements of noise – sometimes measurements may not even be necessary. Your risk assessment should:

· identify where there may be a risk from noise and who is likely to be affected;

· contain a reliable estimate of your employees’ exposures, and compare the exposure with the exposure action values and limit values;

· identify what you need to do to comply with the law, eg whether noise-control measures or hearing protection are needed, and, if so, where and what type; and

· identify any employees who need to be provided with health surveillance and whether any are at particular risk.

It is essential that you can show that your estimate of employees’ exposure is representative of the work that they do. It needs to take account of:

the work they do or are likely to do;
the ways in which they do the work; and
how it might vary from one day to the next.
Your estimate must be based on reliable information, eg measurements in your own workplace, information from other workplaces similar to yours, or data from suppliers of machinery.

You must record the findings of your risk assessment. You need to record in an action plan anything you identify as being necessary to comply with the law, setting out what you have done and what you are going to do, with a timetable and saying who will be responsible for the work.

Review your risk assessment if circumstances in your workplace change and affect noise exposures. Also review it regularly to make sure that you continue to do all that is reasonably practicable to control the noise risks. Even if it appears that nothing has changed, you should not leave it for more than about two years without checking whether a review is needed.

What does the law require employers to do?

You are required to:

provide your employees with hearing protectors if they ask for them and their noise exposure is between the lower and upper exposure action values;
provide your employees with hearing protectors and make sure they use them properly when their noise exposure exceeds the upper exposure action values;
identify hearing protection zones, ie areas where the use of hearing protection is compulsory, and mark them with signs if possible;
provide your employees with training and information on how to use and care for the hearing protectors;
ensure that the hearing protectors are properly used and maintained.
How can hearing protection be used effectively?

Do:

make sure the protectors give enough protection – aim at least to get below 85 dB at the ear;
target the use of protectors to the noisy tasks and jobs in a working day;
select protectors which are suitable for the working environment – consider how comfortable and hygienic they are;
think about how they will be worn with other protective equipment (eg hard hats, dust masks and eye protection);
provide a range of protectors so that employees can choose ones which suit them.
Don’t:

provide protectors which cut out too much noise – this can cause isolation, or lead to an unwillingness to wear them;
make the use of hearing protectors compulsory where the law doesn’t require it;
have a ‘blanket’ approach to hearing protection – better to target its use and only encourage people to wear it when they need to.
What about maintenance?

You will need to make sure that hearing protection works effectively and check that:
it remains in good, clean condition;
earmuff seals are undamaged;
the tension of the headbands is not reduced;
there are no unofficial modifications;
compressible earplugs are soft, pliable and clean.
What checks do I have to make?

You need to make sure that employees use hearing protection when required to.
You may want to:

include the need to wear hearing protection in your safety policy. Put someone in authority in overall charge of issuing it and making sure replacements are readily available;
carry out spot checks to see that the rules are being followed and that hearing protection is being used properly. If employees carry on not using it properly you should follow your normal company disciplinary procedures;
ensure all managers and supervisors set a good example and wear hearing protection at all times when in hearing protection zones;
ensure only people who need to be there enter hearing protection zones and do not stay longer than they need to




Basically, venues are responsible for their staff, you are responsible for yours.

[Penfold42]

Thanks Angela and Steve......:) :beer1:
Did not post on this thread but was reading with intrest.....:)

[CRAZY K]

Right, from Angela. (including advice from HSE)

(Sorry the copy & paste mucked up some of the formatting)


Noise at Work Regulations 2005

..SNIP


Thanks that helpful--but what about this from my previous thread?

Changes from Previous Noise Regulations
The Regulations impose duties on employers and on self-employed persons to protect both employees who may be exposed to risk from exposure to noise at work and other persons at work who might be affected by that work.


I will try to find out because IF its true then it affects most DJs on here.

CRAZY K

[mr rusty]

Basically, venues are responsible for their staff, you are responsible for yours.

Which means the main impact of this is going to be the venues attitude to e.g. their bar staff where the bar is in the same room.

Now call me cynical, but outside of public authority venues, I don't think we will see a tremendous surge in noise limiters being a big problem because a) they cost the venue money to install and b) if they are over sensitive the venue becomes unusable and loses revenue. As most commercial venues rely on a steady income to survive I think the market will make sure venues are always available. I can see more bar staff having attenuating earplugs made available tho'.

[robbiedj]

The main point is that it is measured at the POINT OF WORK.

That is:-

At the working side of the decks for a DJ.

At the bar / buffet for venue staff.

85db is actually quite loud, as was demonstrated at a recent SEDA meeting, and should not be exceded at the working place. The dance floor can usually be louder, provided it is not surrounding the decks or bar.

[CRAZY K]

The main point is that it is measured at the POINT OF WORK.

That is:-

At the working side of the decks for a DJ.

At the bar / buffet for venue staff.

85db is actually quite loud, as was demonstrated at a recent SEDA meeting, and should not be exceded at the working place. The dance floor can usually be louder, provided it is not surrounding the decks or bar.

I havent yet had time to look at implications for Self Employed persons ( if any) but logically if the Employer has countless bands, discos and Entertainers coming through the doors of say a Hotel--to hit the staffs eardrums--I wonder now if every visiting entertainer will be vetted for things like --

What equipment do you use, loudspeaker ratings etc
Whats the maximum sound level you play at
Do you constantly measure sound output
What measuress do you take to play at a safe level

The reason is because if the Employer is liable for the effects of this they are certainly going to HAVE to look at these points to protect employees.

Hopefully they might remember to ask for PAT as well if they are doing their H and S bit properly:D :D :D

If its a nightclub or pub with an in house Disco pumping out music with the same soundsystem every night--obviously thats different--and more controllable.

Im a MOBILE entertainer playing a different venue every week( that I work)
so I wont be surprised if this happens.

In the same way that the appropriate "music police" can turn up at a Pub and seize copied CDs from a DJ as well as all his equipment--and close the pub down--which happened in Wellingborough a few years ago--I wonder what the "noise police" may do :eek:

Just my thoughts.

CRAZY K

[Have a disco]

Just the same I presume shut them down???

A local members club is getting grief for just these problems, in regards to noise pollution outside the premises and now this will basically increase to inside as well so we have had to lower all nights music to half the current levels and customers are already complaining that the music is too low??? We cant win whatever we do apart from soundproofing our customers and barstaff as well LOL

[CRAZY K]

Just the same I presume shut them down???

A local members club is getting grief for just these problems, in regards to noise pollution outside the premises and now this will basically increase to inside as well so we have had to lower all nights music to half the current levels and customers are already complaining that the music is too low??? We cant win whatever we do apart from soundproofing our customers and barstaff as well LOL

Maybe this is in a Residential Area?

With a sound limiter--or potentially where there should be one?

I have come across these situations and in some cases the premises really should not offer to hire its rooms for music functions because its shafting the unsuspecting public who are having their events ruined by sound limiters operating at unrealistically low levels.

I know I did one last year--it was a disgrace and the hall owners should be ashamed of themselves--but they just keep taking the money.

When the audience resort to singing along because my music is cut off continually by audience noise (not coming from my speakers)--you know you have got the gig from hell!!

I wont be appearing there again:D

CRAZY K

[Dragonfly]

i played colwick hall backend of last year in nottingham ........ 500 people marquee sound limit 80 decibels???????

[CRAZY K]

i played colwick hall backend of last year in nottingham ........ 500 people marquee sound limit 80 decibels???????

Hi Dave, did you just use the Mackies with the Bass Sub?

Possibly the only way to cope with the regulations in future for larger events would be speakers halfway down the venue so they dont have to be so loud at the front.

The logisitics of this are difficult because you need more speakers, bigger vehicle etc. An Excalibur gig in the making:D

And of course the odds on the speakers and leads staying intact all night half way down the room wont be too good:eek:

CRAZY K

[theoloyla]

Hey wake up mods! I thought party politics was not allowed on this site.
I hate this law too but I am afraid that it is with us; however, having rules and regulations and enforcing them are not the same thing. I know loads and loads of businesses that regularly break health and safety regulations (as well as many other laws). It will be more rigorously applied to big corporate employers. For instance Wembley, The NEC and the O2 Arena. And this is where a lot of the hysteria that has been ranted on this thread over the last six pages is laid to rest. There will not be noise limiters fitted into concert venues, cinemas, clubs etc. Of course it is going to be loud. It couldnt not be. What it means, however, is that the bar staff, security, roadies, technicians, musicians, dj's and anyone else who is working there will have to wear eard defenders. A hotel which regularly puts on functions will know that virtually all bands, discos, line dance instructors, cabarets etc will be over the limit. They are not going to come and measure how loud you are because you almost certainly will be loud enough for them to have to be seen to be doing the right thing. Again it will be the big chains that comply first. The government's stated intention is that it will be fully in place by 2030. I shall most certainly have retired by then. There will of course be the odd small venue that will get a surprise visit from the HSE inspectors but most of them like visiting shops, offices and factories Mon to Fri, 9 till 5. They are not that keen on working on a Saturday night.
What I can see happening is that more bars will be in rooms adjacent to function rooms (and we all know how much we love that). Sound limiters will still be fitted in premises which get complaints from neighbours. It is nothing to do with this legislation.
Finally many people have suffered hearing loss as a result of loud music and it is a serious issue. Anecdotally many report that their hearing is not as good as it used to be when they started - but they may forget that everyone's hearing deteriorates as they get older.

[Dimension Videotheque]

Pardon?

[theoloyla]

I'd speak up - but you've got ear plugs in!

[Dimension Videotheque]

bar staff, security, roadies, technicians, musicians, dj's and anyone else who is working there will have to wear eard defenders

so how are the bar staff going to hear customers orders wearing ear defenders? How are technicians going to hear the sound properly? Flags, Sign Language? I just think this is another poorly thought out 'control freak' piece of legistlation. It's all part of the job and risks of the business if you end up getting a little mutton geoff.

I just don't accept stupid, dumb legislation. It leads to other nasty things

[Dimension Videotheque]

I'd speak up - but you've got ear plugs in!

No need to shout, I've just measured you at 80.5dB you law breaker.

Lock him up!!!! :D

[theoloyla]

so how are the bar staff going to hear customers orders wearing ear defenders? How are technicians going to hear the sound properly? Flags, Sign Language? I just think this is another poorly thought out 'control freak' piece of legistlation. It's all part of the job and risks of the business if you end up getting a little mutton geoff.

I just don't accept stupid, dumb legislation. It leads to other nasty things
They have been demonstrating the ear defenders at SEDA meetings and all they do is attenuate the sound; so you can still talk to people, minitor, etc. I just hate wearing them. I find them uncomfortable.

[sleah]

I may sound a bit stupid here but how do the sound limiters affect if they are not in the p.a. I have worked in various venues which have them in line in the p.a which decreased or cut out the sound if it reached a certain limit.Does the one pdarnett decribe actually cut power to the mains supply?

You lucky sod! 30something years old and not come accross a mains cutting sound limiter! I'm jealous:D


Any half decent Dj can monitor the volume of their equipment anyway .

I agree in principal, however there are too many 'not' decent DJ's:(
But that's irellevant, 'cause you can't monitor levels outside the venue and in peoples living rooms, not in a meaningful way anyway.
That's why they have the darn limiters.
That said, I wonder just how many have had scientific measurements taken by environmental health dept and calculations made on how loud the music can be? not many I bet.....
probably a case of venue gets official complaint, panics, thinks 'install limiter' and has it set you you can't hear the music outside the venues front door, never mind in the neighbours living room.
:(

[Corabar Steve]

May I remind you all that although this topic is relevant to us, any other political discussion is prohibited on this forum.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Posts deleted. Sorry.

[Corabar Steve]

Hey wake up mods! I thought party politics was not allowed on this site.

We're not here 24 hours a day Theo, we do have other things to do.

The offending posts have been deleted.

Why all the talk of turning the volume down? This legislation involves the wearing of ear plugs, not limiting the volume.

[Dimension Videotheque]

Blimey, there goes freedom of speech and opinions, I'm off, Bye!!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

We're not here 24 hours a day

I am normally. Sorry, I popped out to take the kids to the park...



Why all the talk of turning the volume down? This legislation involves the wearing of ear plugs, not limiting the volume.

That was my take on it too.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Blimey, there goes freedom of speech and opinions, I'm off, Bye!!

Excuse me.

It is nothing to do with that. This is a family forum with rules and the discussion of politics is a subject we don't want.

End of story.

[Corabar Steve]

Blimey, there goes freedom of speech and opinions, I'm off, Bye!!

Did you not read the rules when you signed up then?

A bit silly not to really, you would've also missed the bit about me gaining the rights to the soul of your firstborn. :steve:

[Dimension Videotheque]

Excuse me.

It is nothing to do with that. This is a family forum with rules and the discussion of politics is a subject we don't want.

End of story.

You deleted posts that were nothing to do with politics, but with industry regulations. Some we're tongue in cheek to say the least. I find more offensive material or comments on childrens television. The world isn't a nice fluffy place unless your in a dream world.

I hope this would not be a clicky type of forum but it seems so, I am not being gagged over what I see as relevant points to the topic. If we got to tread on egg shells to have a grown up conversation then I'm outta here.

Sorry folks,

Good luck and live prosperously

Mike

[Tom]

Why all the talk of turning the volume down? This legislation involves the wearing of ear plugs, not limiting the volume.

If thats the case then I dont see what the problem is.

I just did a quick google and these came up Link (http://www.allearplugs.com/AEP37/High-Fidelity-Hear-Plugs-Earplugs-(x1-pair).htm)

They can be re used and washed so what is £8.49 really going to do to your pocket???

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

You deleted posts that were nothing to do with politics, but with industry regulations. Some we're tongue in cheek to say the least. I find more offensive material or comments on childrens television. The world isn't a nice fluffy place unless your in a dream world.

I hope this would not be a clicky type of forum but it seems so, I am not being gagged over what I see as relevant points to the topic. If we got to tread on egg shells to have a grown up conversation then I'm outta here.

Sorry folks,

Good luck and live prosperously

Mike


Firstly, there were a lot of posts which also got fairly political including mention of political orgaanisations and ideals. I am not going to spend an hour editing your posts because you didn't bother to read the rules.

This is not a clicky type of forum and I'd suggest to you that you'd be better off not being here too after only signing up a few days ago and thinking you can do and say what you want.

People like you make me sick, you don't read the rules or listen to what people are saying and then think you can do what you want and when you can't start calling us clicky and not grown up.

I am not gagging anyone and very rarely do we need to edit or delete posts as our members know where to draw the line generally.

Now back on topic please and leave the politics out.

[colint]

Did you not read the rules when you signed up then?

A bit silly not to really, you would've also missed the bit about me gaining the rights to the soul of your firstborn. :steve:

Thanks for pointing that out where do I send him?

[colint]

I saw a (good few years ago) the first paper on these so called new regs (they were sent out to sound installation companys and the like) and there were pages of it!
beleive me this is only the tip of the iceberg? there's loads more to come and it will be the death of entertainment if it all goes through!

just a example (from memory) the was another reg about not having a speaker system within 1mtr of anyone's hearing either mobile or installed

there was pages of stuff like this and most of it totally un-workable and total nonsence

the concerts/festivals are already limited (and have been for a long time) the fact you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there,

at most of the concerts/festivals enviroment health officers are nearly always present which is why the sound was so bad at glastonbury last year there was about 5-6 EH officals complete with very sofisticated sound pressure equipment throughout the weekend constantly bugging the sound tech's to drop the level over the site!
sound limiters are here to stay so we'd best get used to it!

[robbiedj]

Did you not read the rules when you signed up then?

A bit silly not to really, you would've also missed the bit about me gaining the rights to the soul of your firstborn. :steve:

You wouldn't want her! She'd have you for breakfast, bones and all.

She's my daughter .......... and I'm scared of her. :eek:

[DazzyD]

Sounds like you lot have had a fun night. :D Deleted posts? Gagging people? I go away for a few hours to do a quiz night and miss all the fun. The story of my life! ;)

BTW - I've finally done it! Gotten over 100 posts on the forum. I'm in the big school now! :beerchug:

[A1DL]

I'm outta here.

Sorry folks,

Good luck and live prosperously

Mike

but only for a few hours until....


.

Now to really satisfy your ego, ban me, it'll make you feel better.

Mike,
who makes you sick, apparently. :rolleyes:


Mike, this forum isn't about cliques and egos. Daz and the other moderators put in a lot of effort and unpaid time to make this site a great community and a vast knowledgebase. Show some respect and you may learn something new, so far you've been here five minutes and upset the applecart. You are the weakest link goodbye.

[sleah]

BTW - I've finally done it! Gotten over 100 posts on the forum. I'm in the big school now! :beerchug:
Watch it sunshine, 100 posts, you've barely qualified:D



just a example (from memory) the was another reg about not having a speaker system within 1mtr of anyone's hearing either mobile or installed


Thought that was already the case for installations! Not practical for mobiles.
Don't forget the golden words in most regs: where practicable

For mobile use, the alternative of flying speakers would pose a greater risk of a speaker landing on someone's nogin, than deafening someone. So choose the least risk, i.e. DJ be sensible with the volume and punter not to be stoopid enough to stick their ears against a speaker.
With most regs, they do allow for a degree of common sense, although sometimes it don't seem that way......

[theoloyla]

We're not here 24 hours a day Theo, we do have other things to do.

The offending posts have been deleted.

Why all the talk of turning the volume down? This legislation involves the wearing of ear plugs, not limiting the volume.
Sorry Steve and Daz. I wasnt having a go at you mods. I was just surprised that some people didnt realize that you must not do party politics on this forum and was a little surprised that you didnt react more quickly. Of course I realize you cant be on line 24 hours a day.

[DazzyD]

Watch it sunshine, 100 posts, you've barely qualified:D


I've been using the forum for about a year longer than my profile suggests but I went away for a while and when I came back I couldn't remember my password or username and the email I originally signed up with was a work one which I no longer had. So, I re-registered.

The reason it's took me a while to become a "senior" is because this forum is so bloomin' good that most questions I had have already been asked and answered.

It's like an online disco encyclopedia!

[Excalibur]

Agreed Robbie that this is for employee protection--

Looking randomly at some web sites however I found this which raises a point about Excaliburs question--does this apply to self Employed persons--

read this bit-- which comes from here

http://www.healthandsafetytips.co.uk/Articles/Noise_at_Work.htm


Changes from Previous Noise Regulations
The Regulations impose duties on employers and on self-employed persons to protect both employees who may be exposed to risk from exposure to noise at work and other persons at work who might be affected by that work.

Reduced threshold for hearing protection and training.
Reduced threshold for introducing noise control.
Introduce daily exposure limit value.
Permit weekly average.
Emphasis on consultation between employers, employees and reps.
Requirements for health surveillance and hearing testing (at 85dB).

Soooooooooooo does this mean we have to warn the Employer of staff that their staff will be in a "danger zone" and that ear defenders should be worn.

Some guidance notes for self employed Musicans and DJs would be useful, or did I miss that?

CRAZY K

If I read that right, does that impose a " duty of care" on us not allow other people into a noisy area while we're working, or if they are near we'll have to turn it down?:confused: :confused: :confused:


Hi Dave, did you just use the Mackies with the Bass Sub?

Possibly the only way to cope with the regulations in future for larger events would be speakers halfway down the venue so they dont have to be so loud at the front.

The logisitics of this are difficult because you need more speakers, bigger vehicle etc. An Excalibur gig in the making:D

And of course the odds on the speakers and leads staying intact all night half way down the room wont be too good:eek:

CRAZY K
Don't think I didn't spot that first time Alan. :p You lot are all going to have to follow my lead, when we need to ring the dancefloor with speakers every six feet, running at low levels.:eek:

[DJS]

I did a gig about a month ago, where the allowed max db in the room (measured from the back of the room) was 85db.
TBH, it didn't bother me at first, but later on when the venue got busier, with more background noise, i needed to 'up' the volume to suit. The trouble was they were religious with the hand held meter and i lost count of the times i got told to turn it down, or the bass was spiking just over.
It was a nightmare, and im not going back there.
Im doing a gig next month at a local social club, where they have an AVL, in the main room, and im not looking forward too it either.
Apparently its really sensitive, and kills power to everything on stage.
Im not going to be a happy bunny if it kills my amp, or new speakers!
It measures the sound from on stage, so surely at the back of the room, it will be really quiet?

Scott.

[Richard Veal]

Cor it really kicked off in here, anyway someone said that it wont effect volume just that bar staff etc will have to be plugged - i can see that happening in a club maybe but your local hall and hotel will surely go for the limiter as it easier so IMO it will effect the volume.
I wonder if the precision of thoes L1 speakers have a more friendly spl whilst maintaining quality hmm ( sorry rambling again)

[CRAZY K]

If I read that right, does that impose a " duty of care" on us not allow other people into a noisy area while we're working, or if they are near we'll have to turn it down?:confused: :confused: :confused:


Don't think I didn't spot that first time Alan. :p You lot are all going to have to follow my lead, when we need to ring the dancefloor with speakers every six feet, running at low levels.:eek:

Will your lead be 30 feet long and 2.5 mm diameter to reach halfway down the hall?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

CRAZY K

[robbiedj]

Will your lead be 30 feet long and 2.5 mm diameter to reach halfway down the hall?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

CRAZY K

Bring on the remote speakers. I recall somebody was testing cable-free design at one time but it seems to have died a death. :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Bring on the remote speakers. I recall somebody was testing cable-free design at one time but it seems to have died a death. :D

You can get them, but at a price.

[robbiedj]

You can get them, but at a price.

Time to ring Prolite, then. :devil:

[theoloyla]

If I read that right, does that impose a " duty of care" on us not allow other people into a noisy area while we're working, or if they are near we'll have to turn it down?:confused: :confused: :confused:



No I wouldnt think so. Not unless we are the promoter or landlord.

Have been thinking further about this and I have a couple more thoughts. Firstly lets look at how the HSE behave. When they inspect premises they mostly caution businesses about lapses and give them a fixed time to put things right. They dont usually close premises or impose fines on a first visit/occasion.
Secondly a lots of Health and Safety issues are litigation driven. People have accidents or suffer illness and sue. This is why empoyers/businesses impose health and safety policies because otherwise their insurers will not pay up. Also it is when accidents or illnesses occur that the HSE may get involved in prosecutions. If someone trips over something, or injures themselves on equipment or becomes ill from food poisoning or finds foreign bodies in their food the effect is rapid. Loss of hearing from loud noise is a gradual process; so they are not likely to attend a wedding reception and ring up the HSE and complain that you have sent them deaf.
Finally there are lots of laws relating to health and safety but I bet we all know lots of business that break them. The only dj's who will really be affected in this respect so far as I can see are those who employ roadies. You will need to provide ear defenders for them.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I got a sound meter delivered today, so will be taking a few readings at my gig tonight just to see how loud it actually is in different positions.

[Tom]

I got a sound meter delivered today, so will be taking a few readings at my gig tonight just to see how loud it actually is in different positions.

This would be intresting to read. Also it would be handy if we knew how far away you were when playing the music and getting the reading from different areas of the room.

Just a thought. :confused:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

This would be intresting to read. Also it would be handy if we knew how far away you were when playing the music and getting the reading from different areas of the room.

Just a thought. :confused:

I will be doing that - read my last post again. ;)

[Tom]

Whoops. :(

[DJ Knight]

More Government :Censored: I have been working in Loud clubs for over 20 years with no loss of hearing what so ever. 85db is bearly above normal talking level! just a Bog standard car radio will reach DBs around 120DB and it takes three times as much power to create just one more DB to give you an idea of how low 85DB is. Status Quo regularly play at gigs where their sound system creates over 140DB and all the band members have perfectly good hearing. its Very high frequencies that cause hearing dammage not low Bass notes thats why you're more likely to get hearing dammage from a circular saw than you are in a Night club where the bulk of the power goes to the low frequencies.