bank charges

[flatliners]

with the news yesterday about the bank charges some people could be in for a cash refund.
the money i get gonna spend about 1700 or so on some more equipment but not sure what to buy.
i have been thinking of getting 2 star cluster lasers or 1 laser for 600 pounds.
or maybe 2 of these http://www.djanddiscostuff.com/prodpage.asp?prodid=2743#
i want to get a new laptop and a hurcules rmx controller something not to heavy
and if space allows another carlsbro gamma sub
what would you buy
i think a laptop and hercules rmx will set me back about 700

[BeerFunk]

Rewind a bit... I had heard about this, but it's still uncertain isn't it? If everyone started to claim back bank charges all at the same time, the banks would be in a spot of bother, and it may have an adverse affect on the economy. It's all relative. I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourself just yet! :)

Besides, £1700 in bank charges - are you sure? :eek:

[UltraBeat Entertainment]

I feel another Northern Rock situation coming on again if this is to happen.

This could cripple our economy:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Have a disco]

The government have them over a barrel on this issue and its going back to courts for the banks as they cannot justify they're bank charges in real terms so a little while longer before the crunch on this happens but Banks are finally going to lose it seems

[flatliners]

well its more like 2200 they owe me i think it will happen well for those like me who had there clame in just before it went to court.
the bank charges were only part of the question
what would you buy

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Not equipment if I got 2 grand back from the bank....

What a waste of money.

Holiday or savings.

[DJWilson]

i was watching GM TV. Martin Lewis and he said that its up to the nfaair trading standards etc etc whever you get money back without fighting or another huge court case

[rob1963]

Rewind a bit...I had heard about this, but it's still uncertain isn't it?

Correct.

The banks now have the chance to appeal, so flatliners - don't count your chickens.

If I was you, I wouldn't be spending ANY of the money you think you're due until the refund actually appears in your account.

[Kernow]

As I understand it..it has been decided that only the charges for unauthorised overdrafts form the basis of this judgement.

If you take money from a Bank which they don't agree to isn't that called Robbery ??

I don't think they will give up without a long fight yet :rolleyes:

[rob1963]

As I understand it..it has been decided that only the charges for unauthorised overdrafts form the basis of this judgement.


Correct.

[TonyB]

There is an article about it here http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-money/current-accounts/2008/04/24/bank-charges-ruling-not-straightforward.aspx?source=ioowftxt0010011

It could be another year before anyone sees anything if the banks appeal - and lose the appeal.

[flatliners]

well as i understand it the banks have untill 24 of may to lodge an appeal.
i mean they give people there money back before it went to court so why should the rest of us be diffrent

[Kernow]

well as i understand it the banks have untill 24 of may to lodge an appeal.
i mean they give people there money back before it went to court so why should the rest of us be diffrent

In simple terms...

Because initially they (the Banks) thought it would cost more in legal costs than was worth it. However so many chancers tried to take advantage of this and try to reclaim charges caused by their unauthorised debts, which incidentally are clearly set out in Account Conditions, that a few test cases were inevitable. The Banks won those and realised that they were in fact cost effective so have toughened up.

If you don't want to pay charges either:

a) keep your account in credit

or

b) keep within the authorised limits.


Anything else is tantamount to Theft and those affected should really consider themselves lucky to pay a £30'ish fee rather than the 10 stretch they might otherwise receive.

The current 'Credit Crunch' was largely occasioned by just such 'lending' and now will affect us all.

[rob1963]

If you don't want to pay charges either:

a) keep your account in credit

or

b) keep within the authorised limits.

Or

C) Don't have a business account.

:bang:

[Kernow]

Or

C) Don't have a business account.

:bang:


Not necessarily, as long as you are willing to accept the charges for servicing such an account (;) ) and to remain within the agreed limits, I don't see a problem.

After all, doesn't everybody make additional charges for early setup/awkward access/playing overtime etc. ??.

What will we do if our clients start claiming these are unreasonable and want refunds ?? :eek:
By booking, they accept all T&C's & charges and I can't see a lot of difference with opening a Bank Account or taking on Credit Cards/Loans especially with such a competitive and full-of-choice market.

If you have a cashflow deficit you need to either cut back on spending or ensure prompt payments Failing that expect to pay for using other peoples money & time :)

[rob1963]

Not necessarily, as long as you are willing to accept the charges for servicing such an account (;) ) and to remain within the agreed limits, I don't see a problem.

Personally, I think my business account charges of about £180 a year just to pay in a few cheques each month & then draw out the money when they've cleared is a bit steep, but hey ho!

[CRAZY K]

Personally, I think my business account charges of about £180 a year just to pay in a few cheques each month & then draw out the money when they've cleared is a bit steep, but hey ho!

As you are an ex banker this is probably a stupid suggestion and not intended to insult your intelligence:D

Could you not have a separate personal account for incoming cheques and cash withdrawals / cheques of your own if you dont need a large overdraft or business loans, assuming cheques are made payable to you personally, not being Limited Co?

My wife has run her very small business like that for as long as I can remember.

Except the hey ho bit!!!!!!!!!!!!

No doubt there is a very good business reason for you spending £180 a year to boost the banks profits--do you have shares in them :D

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

As you are an ex banker this is probably a stupid suggestion and not intended to insult your intelligence:D

Could you not have a separate personal account for incoming cheques and cash withdrawals / cheques of your own if you dont need a large overdraft or business loans, assuming cheques are made payable to you personally, not being Limited Co?

My wife has run her very small business like that for as long as I can remember.

Except the hey ho bit!!!!!!!!!!!!

No doubt there is a very good business reason for you spending £180 a year to boost the banks profits--do you have shares in them :D

CRAZY K

Hi Crazy,

Cheques are payable to my business, ie Rob James Entertainment.

I know I could get cheques made payable to me personally & use my personal account, but I just think it looks more professional & above board if clients make cheques payable to the business name...so £180 in business account charges each year is the price I have to pay!

[CRAZY K]

Hi Crazy,

Cheques are payable to my business, ie Rob James Entertainment.

I know I could get cheques made payable to me personally & use my personal account, but I just think it looks more professional & above board if clients make cheques payable to the business name...so £180 in business account charges each year is the price I have to pay!

Fair point---as it happens by the time people come to write out cheques to my wife they have already taken a decision as to what kind of people they are dealing with:D :D :D

Nobody has ever queried this--but hey ho!

CRAZY K

[djgordyp]

I thought I was on the wrong forum when I read the title of this thread. I had just over £2000 in unlawful bank charges returned last year.

I could go on and on about this as a couple of the replies got my blood boiling and it has been covered many times on the relevant forums, but here are a few points. Firstly you wouldn't believe how hard it is sometimes to avoid bank charges. And once they hit you for £39 per transaction + interest + a charge of £28 that moth just for the privilage, it's just the start of a vicious circle for some people. After all, that's over £40 less you have the following week and don't forget that £28 at the end of the month. I remember one night I checked my balance online but forgot there was a DD to come out of the balance. I then went to the itunes music store and downloaded a track at .79p. That download put me into the red which left things difficult for me to say the least.

The law clearly states that a penelty charge should be no more than the actual cost, which many many experts have stated would be no more than £4 (some people are still challenging the £12 CC charge). Banks give some people overdrafts. Why do they then allow them to go into the red, simple, because they realised they can make an absolute fortune. Think about this. If the banks allow you to go into the red how can it be called an unauthorised overdraft. They've already given you an overdraft so there's no other reason to allow you to go into the red

Kernow, in reply to your post, the best analogy I can think of is this. Suppose you rent out a dvd tonight and are supposed to return it on monday. You forget so you take it back to the store on tuesday and the guy behind the counter charges you £40 because you were a day late, would oyu be happy to pay that charge which is about ten times (maybe more) what it would cost to rent out a new release for one night.

Supposeing BT or sky were to charge you that much because you were a day late paying your bill.

The real reason the banks settled before going to court was they knew they would have to reveal the true cost, which of course they don't want people knowing.
Sorry about the long post but I just had to get that off my chest.
By the way if you are thinking of trying to reclaim bank charges on a personal account then I would advise that you don't wait but get your name in the queue. The longer you wait the further down the list you will be. Not only that but your case will come to court and will be stayed. From what I have read, you are legally entitled to charge 8% interest per day on the amount you are reclaiming.from the date of the court hearing.
One final thing. Business accounts are unaffected by the recent test case and people are still claiming their charges back from these.

If you PM me I'll send you the link to the forum that helpedme, and are still helping me on other matters.

[BeerFunk]

Excellent post Gordon, that's cleared a few things up for me!

In the case of the bank paying you back, do they then close your account? I had heard this too, and I would imagine it to be true.

[Vectis]

Personally, I think my business account charges of about £180 a year just to pay in a few cheques each month & then draw out the money when they've cleared is a bit steep, but hey ho!

Rob. I use Abbey for business banking. Basically I pay cheques in (by post, using a freepost address) and then using online banking transfer the money out as soon as it's cleared.

I figured that even Abbey could be trusted to process half a dozen cheques per month, and in the last couple of years since I opened the account they've not failed me yet.

And the cost? Nada.

I can pay in up to £3k per month without incurring any fees whatsoever. Now I take at least half my income online, the likelihood of breaching this is most unlikely.

Time for a change?

[Kernow]

Well it may surprise you but, not so long ago, in similar circumstances, a purchase for under ten pounds put me in the same position and I incurred a charge of £35 myself.
However my Bank has a policy that if you have not been liable to any similar charges in the preceeeding 12 months this is waived & refunded to your account.

Having learnt the lesson, I made absolutely sure that ever since I have not repeated the error and have sufficient funds available to cover everything.

Which brings me to my point, of course I sympathise with anyone who becomes unavoidably liable to charges but...............

The figures of £1700 - £2000 suggest an awful lot of forgetfulness at £40 a throw ???

I would think that a DVD hire shop would at most have a claim for an additional days hire 'cos at £40 I could probably buy at least two new copies of most new releases for myself. If they had a board in the shop stating that there overdue charges were at this level then I would either:

Go Elsewhere

or

Make sure it was back on the due date

In any other circumstances by taking the film, I am agreeing to pay this amount if it's not returned in time.

What it boils down to is .......always read the small print before comitting and budget accurately.

[djgordyp]

Excellent post Gordon, that's cleared a few things up for me!

In the case of the bank paying you back, do they then close your account? I had heard this too, and I would imagine it to be true.

I think in the beginning there was a couple of cases where they tried that until they were called to order. It is classed as retaliatory action and very much frowned upon by the OFT. However, as a precaution I moved my money to another bank and as result am managing my money far better now. Kernow mentioned that 1700 - 2000 seemed like a lot of forgetfulness. Maybe so but like I said earlier £39 unauthorised transaction + £28 that month means you have at least £67 less to spend. As has been said many times on the forum I belong to, these charges are hitting the people who can least afford them. If you'd like to read more about the current situation I can paste the link to the thread regarding the OFT test case if you wish

[rob1963]

Rob. I use Abbey for business banking. Basically I pay cheques in (by post, using a freepost address) and then using online banking transfer the money out as soon as it's cleared.

I figured that even Abbey could be trusted to process half a dozen cheques per month, and in the last couple of years since I opened the account they've not failed me yet.

And the cost? Nada.

I can pay in up to £3k per month without incurring any fees whatsoever. Now I take at least half my income online, the likelihood of breaching this is most unlikely.

Time for a change?

Thanks for the info, vectis, but the reason I'm with NatWest is because I worked for them for 24 years, so I know all their products, services & systems inside out...which can be quite handy ;)

[Vectis]

Thanks for the info, vectis, but the reason I'm with NatWest is because I worked for them for 24 years, so I know all their products, services & systems inside out...which can be quite handy ;)

As you wish mate, but £180 a year for the privilege? I can think of a few better things to spend my money on...

All I need in a business account is a mule for cheque-cashing, so I'm happy to run blind.

[KaraokeDJ]

After all, doesn't everybody make additional charges for early setup/awkward access/playing overtime etc. ??.

and


By booking, they accept all T&C's & charges and I can't see a lot of difference with opening a Bank Account or taking on Credit Cards/Loans especially with such a competitive and full-of-choice market.

Exactly. Two very good points.

I've been hearing about these heafty bank charges being repaid and I've wondered what everyone is getting so excited about and why such vast amounts of money. How on earth do people run up over a grand's worth of bank charges - I just don't get it.

[rob1963]

How on earth do people run up over a grand's worth of bank charges - I just don't get it.

By being rubbish at managing their finances.

[KaraokeDJ]

I know I could get cheques made payable to me personally & use my personal account, but I just think it looks more professional & above board if clients make cheques payable to the business name...so £180 in business account charges each year is the price I have to pay!

Don't like to argue in here - ok why not indeed!!!
I would disagree Rob. I don't have a seperate account and no-one has ever queried writing cheques to me. By the time they write a cheque they have my signature on the agreement for the services and would have spoken to me a few times and don't realy care who the cheque is to as long as they feel confident with what I'm offering.

Having been ripped off by business banking for more years than I care to remember - I'd rather stay away from it. A couple of hundred quid a year could be spent on a nice advert somewhere...

[Vectis]

By the time they write a cheque they have my signature on the agreement for the services and would have spoken to me a few times and don't realy care who the cheque is to as long as they feel confident with what I'm offering.


That's what I thought too until I started receiving cheques made out to the company name (or variations thereon) and I just couldn't go through the pain of calling a customer and asking them to send a new cheque.

[rob1963]

Having been ripped off by business banking for more years than I care to remember - I'd rather stay away from it. A couple of hundred quid a year could be spent on a nice advert somewhere...

I respect your opinion, but I reluctantly accept the charges for the reasons already given. I also got free banking for the first 2 years, so it's swings & roundabouts.


That's what I thought too until I started receiving cheques made out to the company name (or variations thereon) and I just couldn't go through the pain of calling a customer and asking them to send a new cheque.

An excellent point, vectis. If you receive a cheque made payable to your business name & you don't have a business account, you can't pay the cheque in. Simple as that. Then, as you say, there is the inconvenience to you and the customer of contacting them to get a replacement cheque.

[JAMdisco]

I attempted to reclaim bank charges over the last 6 years. I did go through a spot of bother when I got divorced, that cost me a lot in unauthorised overdraft charges. Also within those 6 years TBH I didn't manage my money very well and was always going overdrawn.

The bank (Abbey) refunded £750 as a gesture of goodwill just before the test case went to court. I wrote back and accepted it as a gesture of goodwill but was still going to claim for the full amount (apparently a gesture of goodwill does not contribute to the overall claim - I did check this out). I did, however, say that as my gesture of goodwill I would accept it as part of the full ammount and that's the last I heard. I will write again in the next 2 weeks and see what happens.

My overall claim was for just under £3,000 :eek:
If I'm successful, it'll be going in the bank and I'll be jetting off somewhere warm but I won't hold my breath as (as said before) it could take at least another year to sort all this out :D


BTW, I now manage my money much better as my current wife is a little more careful with our money.

[theoloyla]

Yes as has been said it aint over yet. The court case was just to decide whether bank charges fell within the remit of the OFT. The banks look to be appealing and even if they fail it will be for the OFT to prove their case. It will only be unfair bank charges that are refundable even then.
I agree with Vectis on this why pay bank charges if you dont have to. I have a Treasurer's Account with Nationwide for Banana Power which enables me to pay in cheques made out to the business. It costs me nothing and in fact pays me interest! Plus with Nationwide there are no shareholders profiting from my business as it is a mutual building society.
I am annoyed with my personal account bank which is Alliance & Leicester as on an occasion about a year ago I transferred some money from my current account on line to a deposit account. Unfortunately I didnt realise that a cheque I had paid in still has 24 hours to clear. The money never left their business but they charged me a £30 fee. If I had done it by phone banking or in person at a branch they would have told me but because I did it on line they blindly went ahead and then stung me. This is despite me having banked with them for 30 years and having a lot of funds in other accounts etc with them. On previous occasions they may well have conceeded that it was a simple mistake and refunded the money but instead they said that because of the court case they would not consider any claims until the case was settled. I was not impressed.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

. I have a Treasurer's Account with Nationwide for Banana Power which enables me to pay in cheques made out to the business.

How does that work then Theo? It says these accounts are for the following:

Clubs and societies, housing associations, registered charities and trusts.

[CRAZY K]

That's what I thought too until I started receiving cheques made out to the company name (or variations thereon) and I just couldn't go through the pain of calling a customer and asking them to send a new cheque.

OH I DONT KNOW--;)

Return with an SAE --never fails :D

CRAZY K

[Kernow]

and

I've been hearing about these heafty bank charges being repaid and I've wondered what everyone is getting so excited about and why such vast amounts of money. How on earth do people run up over a grand's worth of bank charges - I just don't get it.

[
By being rubbish at managing their finances.


Or maintaining a lifestyle beyond their means ??;)

[rob1963]

[

Or maintaining a lifestyle beyond their means ??;)

Indeed.

I've always found it better to do the opposite.

[Shaun]

I've never had a bank charge. Touch wood.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I've never had a bank charge. Touch wood.

<Shaun opens the door for Daz>

But you're Scottish though...so no surprises there :D

[Shaun]

Cheeky Southerners. :P :)

[Kernow]

And I thought Hog-Money was a festival............


.....not a lifestyle !!! :D :D

[rob1963]

I've never had a bank charge. Touch wood.

Isn't that a spin-off from Dr Who?

[theoloyla]

How does that work then Theo? It says these accounts are for the following:

Clubs and societies, housing associations, registered charities and trusts.
Dont know. They gave me one in 1994 and I have had it ever since.

[wensleydale]

this really gets my goat as there is a chance that free personal banking will become obsolete because of this.

the way i see it when you open an account you accept the charges applicable on the account- dont want to pay the charges dont open the account or dont incurr the charges.

yes, a some people stand to get a few hundred quid back but i suspect a lot more could be subject to charges that the banks apply.

they are in business to make profit and they wont make any cash on your average current account.
just think its wrong.


rant over.

[rob1963]

Theo,

If I was you, I'd keep my head down.

Banks are always on the lookout for people who use inappropriate accounts as business accounts in order to avoid paying charges.

This would include using a treasurers account as a business account as well as using personal accounts as business accounts.

When I worked for the bank, there was a time when I had the job of investigating this.

It wasn't too hard to sus out when it was happening, especially when I was armed with printouts showing things like turnover, the number of entries going through an account etc.

[theoloyla]

Sure Rob. I understand that. They suggested the account at the time and knew the purpose for which it would be used but I am not about to quiz them as to whether or not it was/is a mistake.