Sound Limiter (contract clause)

[Shaun]

Rob's recent thread (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12438) about sound limiter's got me thinking....

Does anyone have a clause in their contract to cover them for events where a sound limiter is installed?. I'm guessing the sudden cut-off and restart of computer and digital systems is none too good for digital systems.

I suppose another alternative is using a UPS. Anybody currently using one of these?

[rob1963]

Rob's recent thread (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12438) about sound limiter's got me thinking....

Does anyone have a clause in their contract to cover them for events where a sound limiter is installed?. I'm guessing the sudden cut-off and restart of computer and digital systems is none too good for digital systems.

I suppose another alternative is using a UPS. Anybody currently using one of these?

After tonight, I'm seriously thinking of refusing to play at ANY venues where there is a sound limiter.

I could possibly have it as a question on the booking form.

[Shaun]

After tonight, I'm seriously thinking of refusing to play at ANY venues where there is a sound limiter.



This is something I already do, but only with enquiries that come in for venues I know has them installed. Up till now I've not made a point of asking clients if their chosen venue has a limiter installed, but maybe I should. I cover it briefly somewhere in the depths of my website but I haven't elaborarted on it too deeply. There could be serious implications with regards to equipment damage caused by these contraptions, especially since I've moved to a digital playout system, I'm thinking it's maybe time to think ahead to cover me (contractually) for instances where I find myself with an 'unworkable' sound limiter. I already have a clause that covers me should the set-up area or electrics be unsuitable, I don't see why this should be any different?.

[yourdj]

Rob's recent thread (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12438) about sound limiter's got me thinking....

Does anyone have a clause in their contract to cover them for events where a sound limiter is installed?. I'm guessing the sudden cut-off and restart of computer and digital systems is none too good for digital systems.

I suppose another alternative is using a UPS. Anybody currently using one of these?

Yep, including generators in marquees too.

[Vectis]

I've two clauses relating to these things

The hirer/client is fully responsible for any damage caused to the equipment caused by the use of noise limiters and the subsequent cut off and reintroduction of power without our consultation.

and

Should the venue be equipped with noise limiters, we cannot be held responsible for any loss of enjoyment caused;


I know all the local venues that have them and include a commentary on the booking form for anyone hiring these venues, for example

• Landguard Manor is fitted with a sound volume limiter. Whilst this isn’t set so low as to cause a problem, sometimes an enthusiastic crowd can trigger the system. This means that all our equipment will be powered off and could mean a break in the entertainment of a few minutes whilst systems are reset.


I carry a small 700VA UPS in the van and use this to protect the main console at venues with limiters - d2, mixer, DMX desk, radio mic receiver. It makes the resets a bit more bearable. I also have a 2x31-channel EQ so I can sometimes identify the frequency the limiter device is most sensitive to and pull it down a bit.

[PropellerHeadCase]

Yep, I was going to mention that a small UPS-enabled power-strip for your delicate electronics is good practice, sound-limiter or not. I got as far as having a power conditioner for CD-player, mixer and lap-top, now I'm having a UPS plugged in there as well.

[pagan_flame]

I'm guessing the sudden cut-off and restart of computer and digital systems is none too good for digital systems.

I suppose another alternative is using a UPS. Anybody currently using one of these?Sort of. It's called a 'laptop battery'. :rolleyes:

[DazzyD]

Sort of. It's called a 'laptop battery'. :rolleyes:

If only things were that easy!

Seriously, whilst a laptop battery will keep the laptop going, there's little point if the mixer, amp, active speakers, etc are off too! I suppose the advantage to this is you don't have to re-power the laptop which, as is my case, would take several minutes using my Vista systems.

If you're also using user power-surge protection there isn't much of a risk of damage caused by sudden loss of power to laptop systems. However, there is a risk of data corruption if any external (or internal) hard discs are writing to the drive at that time. I would assume that this would also apply to the other digital playout systems (denon, cortex, etc.) if they write to drives as well as read from them.

Personally, I am comfortable with sound limiters unless they are in venues where tables and chairs are placed on wooden/laminate flooring. I find that the biggest reason for triggering power shutdowns is when people scrape their chairs over this type of flooring. If the seating area is carpeted, then there's usually no real problems (so long as I know about the limiter before I sound-check!).

[Tony Scott]

Not likely to happen or be viable but a blanket boycott of 'problem venues' by DJ's/bands would be a nice idea.........hit them in the pocket, they'd soon sort out better sound insulation or find other solutions to the H&S issues if clients couldn't book anybody to play there.

[CRAZY K]

If only things were that easy!

Seriously, whilst a laptop battery will keep the laptop going, there's little point if the mixer, amp, active speakers, etc are off too! I suppose the advantage to this is you don't have to re-power the laptop which, as is my case, would take several minutes using my Vista systems.

If you're also using user power-surge protection there isn't much of a risk of damage caused by sudden loss of power to laptop systems. However, there is a risk of data corruption if any external (or internal) hard discs are writing to the drive at that time. I would assume that this would also apply to the other digital playout systems (denon, cortex, etc.) if they write to drives as well as read from them.

Personally, I am comfortable with sound limiters unless they are in venues where tables and chairs are placed on wooden/laminate flooring. I find that the biggest reason for triggering power shutdowns is when people scrape their chairs over this type of flooring. If the seating area is carpeted, then there's usually no real problems (so long as I know about the limiter before I sound-check!).

Cortex is a USB reader only.

Although it can create its own database.

But that only deposits a .db file on the Hard Drive--it cant change the existing MP3s--far as I know.

Thats alright then:cool: :cool: :cool:

CRAZY K


Not likely to happen or be viable but a blanket boycott of 'problem venues' by DJ's/bands would be a nice idea.........hit them in the pocket, they'd soon sort out better sound insulation or find other solutions to the H&S issues if clients couldn't book anybody to play there.

I did suggest at one time a "gig guide" for here so we could feedback on all venues we personally cover. Sound limiters, access, sound acoustics etc.

Dont know if thats viable?

I could offer to do some work on that if it helps as I constantly come across new venues I dont know--like the latest one in Bury St Edmunds.

CRAZY K

[theoloyla]

Not likely to happen or be viable but a blanket boycott of 'problem venues' by DJ's/bands would be a nice idea.........hit them in the pocket, they'd soon sort out better sound insulation or find other solutions to the H&S issues if clients couldn't book anybody to play there.
Trouble is that zealous councils see them as a quick easy fix even though your solution is a better long term solution.

[Andy Westcott]

I don't encounter many sound limiters fortunately, but there's a pub near me which has recently been completely rebuilt after a major fire, and the dear ol' council insisted on a sound limiter as a condition of the licence.

I'm not sure how these things are set up initially, but I feel it must have been incorrect: It seems to be over-sensitive to very low bass sounds, particularly infrasound, to the point where even wafting your hand in front of the mic would light up some red lights. Simply closing the door lit all the lights!

The gig at this venue was a nightmare as I had to constantly keep an eye on the thing (behind me on the wall) and to attain any sort of useable volume had to have the bass wound well back, wrecking the audio - not sure what the audience thought. I did point the thing out at the beginning and explain its purpose, just in case.

Interestingly, it never actually cut out, but I was informed by the client that he believed it had a 30 second delay, meaning that if all 3 red lights lit up for thirty seconds, off would go the power until you pressed a reset button.

I did test it a bit before the guests arrived, but gave up before it did. I'm there again in a couple of months - I'll do a better test then. :)

Sorry - I forgot the main point of the thread:
No, I don't have a sound limiter clause in my contract, simply because i consider it unfair to expect the client to know if there is one.

All you can do is point it out to the audience, and hope for the best.

[rob1963]

No, I don't have a sound limiter clause in my contract, simply because i consider it unfair to expect the client to know if there is one.

The client only has to ask the venue...or if they don't, then how long would it take for YOU to phone the venue to find out?


All you can do is point it out to the audience, and hope for the best.

How does that help?

It doesn't stop the limiter cutting off the power, whether you've told the audience about it or not.

It COULD even make things worse, as there might be some idiot who thinks it will be fun to shout or scream to try & set it off...just like I've had idiots jump up & down in front of the disco to try & make the CDs jump.

[CRAZY K]

The client only has to ask the venue...or if they don't, then how long would it take for YOU to phone the venue to find out?



How does that help?

It doesn't stop the limiter cutting off the power, whether you've told the audience about it or not.

It COULD even make things worse, as there might be some idiot who thinks it will be fun to shout or scream to try & set it off...just like I've had idiots jump up & down in front of the disco to try & make the CDs jump.

I agree-think we need to do more upfront checks on venues we dont know--I do a fair bit nowadays if I am concerned.

Its easy enought to look up on the Internet.

Reminds me I must check out one in the morning :rolleyes:

CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

and when you lot decide not to play these venues then there will be more work for me.

people will still book wedings at these venues and thats why i will still work in these venues.

[rob1963]

and when you lot decide not to play these venues then there will be more work for me.

Very true.

If you like, I'll even recommend you to clients I have to refuse due to their venues having problematic sound limiters!

:D

[wensleydale]

Very true.

If you like, I'll even recommend you to clients I have to refuse due to their venues having problematic sound limiters!

:D

fair enough.
a bottle of your favourite tipple in it for each referral.

[rob1963]

fair enough.
a bottle of your favourite tipple in it for each referral.

We have a deal!

:D

[Andy Westcott]

To tackle the responses to my post:

"The client only has to ask the venue...or if they don't, then how long would it take for YOU to phone the venue to find out?"
But I don't think that would affect whether they used that venue. And I don't want to lose the work, so little point really.

Regarding telling the audience about the limiter:
"How does that help?"
Well, it makes the audience aware of why the music is quiet, or lacking in bass. I wouldn't want them to think it was down to me alone. I've not personally experienced anyone purposely trying to set off a limiter, but if they succeeded, the audience will know what to blame for the power outage. I feel they have a need to know what's going on if there's a chance of the evening being disrupted.

[Vectis]

But I don't think that would affect whether they used that venue. And I don't want to lose the work, so little point really.

I've had one incidence very recently whereby a wedding couple changed venue because the venue didn't tell them about the limiter (I did :D ). They lost a whopping great deposit, too, but their evening party is of such importance to them they switched venue. I did manage to get them a deal on the new place, minimising their deposit loss to about £250.



Regarding telling the audience about the limiter:


For most functions I do an 'intro' slot a few minutes before we start - usually to tell folks the B+G are doing the first dance shortly, but not always. I walk out in front of the rig and introduce myself, mention the policy in respect of requests for the gig, assure folks we'll be playing something for everyone at some stage (even if we're not :p ) and it's during this little intro I'll inform them if a limiter is in use and what to expect if it trips.

[theoloyla]

For most functions I do an 'intro' slot a few minutes before we start - usually to tell folks the B+G are doing the first dance shortly, but not always. I walk out in front of the rig and introduce myself, mention the policy in respect of requests for the gig, assure folks we'll be playing something for everyone at some stage (even if we're not :p ) and it's during this little intro I'll inform them if a limiter is in use and what to expect if it trips.
Very sensible - and pretty much what I do too.