Charity Ball Dilema

[mark@pegasus]

Just had an e-mail cancelling a charity ball for the local hospital where my wife works it should have taken place on the 14th June and I know I have turned down other work for that date. Question is do I charge them as per my T&C's which are full payment if cancelled within 1 calender month and risk loosing out on other work for the hospital. They are are saying it is due to lack of ticket sales which we all know isn't unusal in the current financial climate but I am still running a business
:Help:

[Vectis]

Have you had a reasonable deposit? If so, I'd be tempted to trouser it, write to them and let them know that in the circumstances you're prepared to waive the balance on this occasion.

If not, then my action would depend on the likelihood (and value) of future business but I'd certainly want to come away with something, even if a third or a half of the fee especially if you've genuinely turned away alternative business.

Personally I don't take such events during the prime wedding season as the earning potential is so much better than during the quieter months.

[Javlingames]

the business you get from the hospital, are these saturdays that you would sell anyway?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Ooh, a bit bizarre, reading the same post on 2 forums...

I refer the honorable gentleman to my reply on the other forum.

[mark@pegasus]

Hi Javelin
This is actually the first job I have been able to do for them but they have offered me other jobs for dates that were already booked up.

And Darren let's face it it never hurts to ask in more than one place:)

[rob1963]

You have to weigh up the importance of getting your full fee for a gig that's been cancelled against the possible lost bookings if you do that & they decide not to use you again.

Presumably you took a deposit, so I'd keep that & waive the full fee for the cancelled gig, as it sounds like you have a reasonably good chance of getting more bookings with them in the future.

[Shaun]

Let me see...

Don't bill them as per your contract in the hope that they book you for more gigs (that may too be cancelled for poor ticket sales), or bill them for the balance owed as stipulated in the contract?. I'd go with the latter every time unless they were already an established customer.

[rob1963]

I'd go with the latter every time unless they were already an established customer.

...in which case they'd have little chance of BECOMING an established customer!

[Penfold42]

Let me see...

Don't bill them as per your contract in the hope that they book you for more gigs (that may too be cancelled for poor ticket sales), or bill them for the balance owed as stipulated in the contract?. I'd go with the latter every time unless they were already an established customer.
:agree:....:)

Been watching this and a tough choice...but they broke the contract...you may or may not get other work from them...but they will think next time.

[CRAZY K]

You have to weigh up the importance of getting your full fee for a gig that's been cancelled against the possible lost bookings if you do that & they decide not to use you again.

Presumably you took a deposit, so I'd keep that & waive the full fee for the cancelled gig, as it sounds like you have a reasonably good chance of getting more bookings with them in the future.

I agree take the deposit.

But why would you want more bookings like this--:eek:

i.e. that get cancelled because of lack of support.

CRAZY K

[Shaun]

...in which case they'd have little chance of BECOMING an established customer!

That's the chance I'd have to take. If I'd been turning away work for that date and it was then cancelled at short notice there's probably little chance of me filling the date. No pay means no food on the table.

There would be little point of me having a cancellation clause if I wasn't prepared to enforce it. The same could be said for ANY customer that cancels...they may become an established customer...so should I remove the cancellation clause and not chase up payments?. The same could be said for other clauses in my contract, such as damage clause. Should I not persue a client for damage to my equipment caused by a guest incase they maybe become an established customer?. The clauses in my contract are their for a reason and I see no point in having them if I'm not prepared to use them if and when the need arises.

I'm not knocking those that wouldn't chase the payment, but I wouldn't dream of waiving the payment unless they were already an established client. Each to their own.

[mark@pegasus]

After careful consideration of all the replies both here and on MDJF I have decided to pursue payment as per contract, they are not an established customer it is only that the wife works at the hospital that it left me with the dillema. As several of you have said it's a case of weighing up future work and cancelled due to to poor ticket sales or take the more secure bookings i.e. weddings which is where I am happy. I'll keep you posted though

[Shaun]

Good luck Mark. Hope it all works out well.

[Ace DJ]

This is the big problem with charity work. When whoever it is decides to hold a function there is no money in th pot to start with. Although the organisor committee signs a contract when things go wrong there is no pot of money from which to draw a cancellation fee. The Hospital would be under no obligation to pay. Unless it is a profit making business charity dont touch it.
Even in the money climate of the moment any gig that involves ticket sales is
a big NO NO NO.
Like wise there are going to be a lot of cancellations this christmas with the hotel party night. Mark my words.
Ace

[Vectis]

Like wise there are going to be a lot of cancellations this christmas with the hotel party night. Mark my words.

Good job most of my December Saturdays are already booked for weddings then :cool: (most unusual!)

[Shaun]

This is the big problem with charity work. When whoever it is decides to hold a function there is no money in th pot to start with. Although the organisor committee signs a contract when things go wrong there is no pot of money from which to draw a cancellation fee. The Hospital would be under no obligation to pay.


Of course they would be under obligation to pay. Whether there is a pot of money to pay or not, once they have signed your Terms and Conditions they are legally obligated to abide by the conditions and pay up if necessary. I'd have no qualms about taking them to small claims court. When I enter into a contract with them I'm bound to their event and turning away other customers - on the flipside of that, they are tied into an agreement with me that entitles me to be compensated should they cancel at the last moment. They are absolutely obligated to honour the T&C's that they agreed to at the point of signing.

[CRAZY K]

Of course they would be under obligation to pay. Whether there is a pot of money to pay or not, once they have signed your Terms and Conditions they are legally obligated to abide by the conditions and pay up if necessary. I'd have no qualms about taking them to small claims court. When I enter into a contract with them I'm bound to their event and turning away other customers - on the flipside of that, they are tied into an agreement with me that entitles me to be compensated should they cancel at the last moment. They are absolutely obligated to honour the T&C's that they agreed to at the point of signing.

Shaun, you are correct technically but I think Ace is saying that the bill goes to the organiser who often in my experience is a very hard working well intentioned person with not a lot of money behind them.

Getting a cancellation fee from a School, Hotel or a Golf Club which are commercial organisations is likely to succeed eventually---private individuals can be more difficult.

I agree taking boookings now which depend on ticket sales is hiigh risk in some situations--for Charity functions I even ask people what their plans are to sell tickets to pay me and make a profit--anyone who says they are hoping for a lot of people to turn up on the night wont get me :eek:

We are entering one of the most turbulent financial periods for a very long time-

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

There would be little point of me having a cancellation clause if I wasn't prepared to enforce it. The same could be said for ANY customer that cancels...they may become an established customer...so should I remove the cancellation clause and not chase up payments?. The same could be said for other clauses in my contract, such as damage clause. Should I not persue a client for damage to my equipment caused by a guest incase they maybe become an established customer?. The clauses in my contract are their for a reason and I see no point in having them if I'm not prepared to use them if and when the need arises.

Of course we all have terms & conditions, and they are there for our benefit as well as the clients, but we don't always have to follow them to the letter.

I sometimes have clients who don't return the booking form & deposit within the two weeks stated in my terms & conditions. Does this mean I should just wait two weeks & then write to them telling them I've cancelled their booking? Of course not. In reality I will send a chaser letter and probably a second letter a week later before cancelling if I don't hear from them.

Should I immediately cancel the booking if their deposit cheque bounces? Again, of course not. I would inform them what had happened & listen to their response before deciding how to proceed.

I wonder if everyone on this forum would follow their terms & conditions to the letter 100% of the time? I wouldn't, and I'm probably not the only one.

The point I'm making is that everything is NOT black & white, and there is no need to be a jobsworth all the time. Sometimes a little common sense can be beneficial...to us AND the client.

:)

[Shaun]

Of course we all have terms & conditions, and they are there for our benefit as well as the clients, but we don't always have to follow them to the letter.


It's nothing to do with being a jobsworth, it has everything to do with trying to run my business as a business...this isn't a hobby for me. There have been instances where I've let things slide in the past and not followed my T&C's to the letter. However, a cancellation close to the event is not likely going to result in me re-booking the date. In that circumstance I would chase up the payment every time. No pay no food on the table.

[theoloyla]

Of course we all have terms & conditions, and they are there for our benefit as well as the clients, but we don't always have to follow them to the letter.

I sometimes have clients who don't return the booking form & deposit within the two weeks stated in my terms & conditions. Does this mean I should just wait two weeks & then write to them telling them I've cancelled their booking? Of course not. In reality I will send a chaser letter and probably a second letter a week later before cancelling if I don't hear from them.

Should I immediately cancel the booking if their deposit cheque bounces? Again, of course not. I would inform them what had happened & listen to their response before deciding how to proceed.

I wonder if everyone on this forum would follow their terms & conditions to the letter 100% of the time? I wouldn't, and I'm probably not the only one.

The point I'm making is that everything is NOT black & white, and there is no need to be a jobsworth all the time. Sometimes a little common sense can be beneficial...to us AND the client.

:)
I agree Rob. My gig for tomorrow is a high school prom. Despite several phone conversations I have not received the contract back or a deposit. The lady dealing with it said she would pay full fee by cheque in advance. She claims that the school bursar sent it a week ago. I have just told her that I will require cash payment and a signed contract tomorrow before I unload the van.

[Spirits High]

Good job most of my December Saturdays are already booked for weddings then :cool: (most unusual!)

Funny you should say that, the first 3 saturdays of december are already booked up for me as wedding aswell:confused:

[Shaun]

All this side-tracking discussing contracts not being returned are neither here nor there in the context of what we're discussing. We're talking about cancellation policies in this thread.

[rob1963]

I agree Rob. My gig for tomorrow is a high school prom. Despite several phone conversations I have not received the contract back or a deposit. The lady dealing with it said she would pay full fee by cheque in advance. She claims that the school bursar sent it a week ago. I have just told her that I will require cash payment and a signed contract tomorrow before I unload the van.

I had something similar with a corporate quiz I had booked for last Friday.

On Thursday afternoon the client phoned me to apologise for not sending the deposit, saying she had simply forgotton to post it.

If I went by my terms & conditions, I would have cancelled the booking - due to not receiving the deposit, although then I would have lost out as well as her.

Common sense prevailed, so I told her she could just to pay the full amount at the beginning of the quiz, which of course she did.

[Shaun]

Here's a situation:

You're booked to do a party that's 50 miles away and you contact the client to let them know you haven't received the booking form or deposit. The event is too close to send another booking form and await the cheque. You call them up and agree to accept payment on arrival. You drive 50 miles to the venue only to find another DJ setting up, the bride has made a mistake and sent a cheque and booking form to a DJ all right, it just happens to be another DJ company. She got confused and had booked someone else. So now you're down a nights wages and 100 miles worth of petrol....without a contract and no come-back.

Where does that leave you?. This hasn't happened to me but it did happen to a DJ I know.

I would never go anywhere without a deposit paid. If the cheque did go astray in the post the client can make an instant payment through my website.

I'm all for going the extra mile for my clients, but not to the detriment of my business.

[rob1963]

I would never go anywhere without a deposit paid. If the cheque did go astray in the post the client can make an instant payment through my website.

I'm all for going the extra mile for my clients, but not to the detriment of my business.

Last Friday when I went to do a corporate quiz without having received a deposit, I could have easily refused. That would have left an unhappy customer and me not working, and therefore not being paid, and as you said earlier in this thread, no pay means no food on the table.

As it turned out, it was a really good night. I got paid, and the client said it had been a great success and that they'd definately be booking me for some more quiz nights later in the year.

The point I'm making is that things don't ALWAYS turn out bad just because you decide NOT to follow your terms & conditions to the letter.

[Shaun]

In the same situation I would have taken the deposit via my website and got them to sign the contract on arrival. It wouldn't be following my contract to the letter but it would protect me in the case of the scenario I mentioned above. I can and have provided leeway in the past, but not to the the extent where I could leave myself open to a loss.

Your way and my way both offers leeway, but mines offers me more protection with the same result.

[CRAZY K]

Here's a situation:

You're booked to do a party that's 50 miles away and you contact the client to let them know you haven't received the booking form or deposit. The event is too close to send another booking form and await the cheque. You call them up and agree to accept payment on arrival. You drive 50 miles to the venue only to find another DJ setting up, the bride has made a mistake and sent a cheque and booking form to a DJ all right, it just happens to be another DJ company. She got confused and had booked someone else. So now you're down a nights wages and 100 miles worth of petrol....without a contract and no come-back.

Where does that leave you?. This hasn't happened to me but it did happen to a DJ I know.

I would never go anywhere without a deposit paid. If the cheque did go astray in the post the client can make an instant payment through my website.

I'm all for going the extra mile for my clients, but not to the detriment of my business.

Im pretty tight when it comes to money:D

But I am going to a gig Saturday night which is last minute and only confirmed in an email.

I have told them I dont start until I am paid in cash, no flaffing around.

As it happens im playing through a DJs sound system already there.

Im prepared to take a flyer as my instinct tells me its going to be ok--BUT
NO CASH NO PERFORMANCE--I will just walk.

As theres a room full of expectant Scottish Dancers who need me to instruct them im not too worried.

I agree with Shaun, if your full time you cant afford to not get paid.

CRAZY K

[Corabar Steve]

Last Friday when I went to do a corporate quiz without having received a deposit, I could have easily refused. That would have left an unhappy customer and me not working, and therefore not being paid, and as you said earlier in this thread, no pay means no food on the table................................
The point I'm making is that things don't ALWAYS turn out bad just because you decide NOT to follow your terms & conditions to the letter.


Steve, if I was desperate for work, then you'd be right, but in reality that couldn't be further from the truth.

I refuse to be messed about, and if that means I lose one or two bookings a year, I really don't have a problem with that.

I answer most emails within 6 hours & post all paperwork well within 24 hours. Clients have 2 weeks to return the booking form with their deposit, which I think is plenty of time.



Make your mind up :sj:

[Shaun]

Make your mind up :sj:

He does that often.

THere was also this recently too in the "Advice Please" thread...




What's the point of having terms & conditions if I'm not going to enforce them?



Very contradicting considering he made a comment in another thread about "jobsworths" when people enforce their contracts. :rolleyes:

[rob1963]

Let me clarify the difference between the disco booking where my terms & conditions were broken because the form & deposit had not been returned after 5 weeks, and the corporate quiz where my terms & conditions were broken because they forgot to send me the deposit.

As I've already said, I refuse to be messed about, and the guy who booked me for the disco WAS messing me about, whereas the girl who booked me for the quiz & forgot to send the deposit was NOT.

After 5 weeks, the disco guy still didn't know if he would actually want me, as he might have found someone else who could do the disco for nothing, although after 5 weeks he was still waiting to hear from the other guy. Therefore, he might end up wanting me or he might not, but he couldnt tell me when he would know...this is messing me about, which is why I said I had another enquiry & told him I couldn't wait any longer for his decision.

The quiz situation was completley different. She was 100% certain that she wanted me, but simply forgot to post the deposit. She also had the courtesy to phone the day before the quiz to explain this & apologise. This was not messing me about, as it was just an oversight, so I agreed to accept full payment at the beginning of the evening, which I did.

I hope this clarifies the very big difference between the two scenarios, and why I took the action I did in each case.

[Shaun]

I already knew the differences from your earlier posts. It still doesn't negate the fact that you're using blanket statements and giving people titles (Jobsworths) without having all the facts and details of why people have decided to enforce their contract. It still all seems a little contradictory to me. Just my personal opinion.

[rob1963]

He does that often.

There was also this recently too in the "Advice Please" thread...

What's the point of having terms & conditions if I'm not going to enforce them?

Very contradicting considering he made a comment in another thread about "jobsworths" when people enforce their contracts. :rolleyes:

Not contradicting at all. I'll say it again. We all have terms & conditions to protect us as well as the customers, but that doesn't mean we have to follow them to the letter 100% of the time, depending on the circumstances.

When I made the comment asking what's the point of having terms & conditions if I'm not going to enforce them, I was answering wensleydale's comment that I shouldn't be getting ar$ey over when the paperwork gets sent back to me. I had been waiting 5 weeks, so I chased the customer. If I hadn't heard back within 48 hours, I would have cancelled the booking...and would always do the same in the same situation in the future, as it's basically completely out of order.

However, there are plenty of other areas where I would NOT always follow my terms & conditions to the letter.

Shaun,

I notice you seem to have contradicted yourself on this subject too, as you've done several posts saying how important it is to always follow your terms & conditions...then you did one saying there have been a number of occasions where you have NOT!

:confused:

[Shaun]

Shaun,

I notice you seem to have contradicted yourself on this subject too, as you've done several posts saying how important it is to always follow your terms & conditions...then you did one saying there have been a number of occasions where you have NOT!

:confused:

Touche,

But let's get it in the context it was used. I made that statement to point out that I provided leeway if it was required, but not to the extent where I could find myself at a financial loss. Before I posted that comment you seemed to think that those of us that would enforce our contracts were jobsworths and a stickler for making sure everything was done to the letter. Not the case.

I then posted the quote of yours above to point out that you had contradicted yourself.

Anyways, we seem to be going round in circles discussing comments made in another thread. Partly my fault, but this discussion would be better situated in the other topic or a new one altogether.

[rob1963]

It still doesn't negate the fact that you're using blanket statements and giving people titles (Jobsworths) without having all the facts and details of why people have decided to enforce their contract.

If I've called anyone a jobsworth without having all the facts & details about why people have decided to enforce their contract on a particular occasion, then I withdraw the comment & apologise for commenting on something when I did not have the full details.

[theoloyla]

I agree Rob. My gig for tomorrow is a high school prom. Despite several phone conversations I have not received the contract back or a deposit. The lady dealing with it said she would pay full fee by cheque in advance. She claims that the school bursar sent it a week ago. I have just told her that I will require cash payment and a signed contract tomorrow before I unload the van.
Further to my last post. The cheque for the full fee arrived next morning and as it was a local authority I accepted it and banked it straight away; however, they had sent the contract back unsigned; so I still had to get them to sign that before the gig - which I have posted elsewhere was a success.

[mark@pegasus]

just to update everyone that replied to my problem, the hospital have paid in full had cheque through the post today, in the end I had to agree if I had cancelled with only 10 days notice they would be looking over my T&C's and seeing how much compensation thay could get from me. Still feel a bit guilty but I'm sure that will pass:)
























It's passed:D

[DazzyD]

Well done, Sir! That's the way to do business. It just shows that the client valued the time you had taken on the booking so far and appreciated the fact that you could be losing out because of them.

I wish all clients were so understanding!

[Sam]

Pleased for you.

I see you too are in Weymouth?
Seems that Weymouth discos are on the increase!!

I am between Sherborne and Dorch.

[mark@pegasus]

Hi Sam
I woldn't say on the increase as I've DJ'ing in around Weymouth & Dorchester for 18years now, it's just in the last 6 or 7 months that i have started to use the forums :cool:

[Impactdisco]

I reckon that there have been about the same amount for the last two years in Weymouth.

There are probably 5-10 or us that appear to get sensible money, the rest £100-£150.

At least, that's how it appears to me

Maybe Tony & Mark think differently, you'd have to ask them