Safety chains

[Ajaysdisco]

Stupid question, what do you do when a light doesn’t have a secondary fixing point?

I have just brought a couple of LED PARS and I have noticed they don’t have a secondary fixing point.
I know they don’t weigh much but I would like to use a safety chain just in case.

I don’t want to be drilling holes into them and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar problem?

[Cj_The_Dj]

put it around your hanging bracket and cross bar.

hope this helps.

[Tom]

On some of the larger lighting like moving heads you may have a second fixing but for most lights you would just wrap a safty cable around the bracket like what CJ said.

[Ajaysdisco]

Ok, thanks for the info; I would of though manufactures would have put a second fixing point in case the bracket or its bolt fails?

I know it may be light but it still cost money if it decides to fall!

[Dillmiester]

Ok, thanks for the info; I would of though manufactures would have put a second fixing point in case the bracket or its bolt fails?

I know it may be light but it still cost money if it decides to fall!

If you are using a standard M6 bolt correctly with pressure washers and wingnut and it fails, I will personally buy you a replacement light.
Heavy lights I agree with some extra safety but these modern LED Pars weigh next to nothing so theres no need to worry if used correctly :)

[Danno13]

Don't you mean M10 bolt? :)

[Corabar Steve]

Nah, it was going to Birmingham, not Hemel :sj:

[Dillmiester]

In my case then it would be the M69 to brum :p

[Danno13]

I think an M69 bolt would be a tad overkill for a LED par :D

[djsteve10]

I think an M69 bolt would be a tad overkill for a LED par :D

It wouldn't be going nowhere with 1 of them ;)

[One Vision]

If you are using a standard M6 bolt correctly with pressure washers and wingnut and it fails, I will personally buy you a replacement light.
Heavy lights I agree with some extra safety but these modern LED Pars weigh next to nothing so theres no need to worry if used correctly :)

Well said Dillmiester, I think your taking things a bit to far really with the cables.
How many bolts have actually failed? I would say none.
With heavy lights then yes you can never be too safe but with many of today's lights its like waring 3 seat belts.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Well said Dillmiester, I think your taking things a bit to far really with the cables.


I despair sometimes.

[djsteve10]

I despair sometimes.

Safety first at the end of day, Darren is a pro like alot of us on this forum and lets face it would you be wanting to deal with the insureance claim because someone has a Martin EFX500 stuck in their head when you could of spent that extra 30 secons just clipping a safety chain around it.

[One Vision]

Using lights such as Martin EFX500 is a bit different to what I was saying.


With heavy lights then yes you can never be too safe but with many of today's lights its like waring 3 seat belts

I was referring to mostly led effects that many now use.
So I'm not pro am I not?
Just because I am just setting my own show up doesn't mean I'm less pro or do things less professionally.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Nothiing to do with being 'pro'. It's to do with H&S.

[nigelwright7557]

Stupid question, what do you do when a light doesn’t have a secondary fixing point?

I have just brought a couple of LED PARS and I have noticed they don’t have a secondary fixing point.
I know they don’t weigh much but I would like to use a safety chain just in case.

I don’t want to be drilling holes into them and I was wondering if anyone has had a similar problem?

I must admit I dont use safety chains.
I suspect its more likely someone pulls over the lighting rig than it breaks.
The bolts are pretty hefty on my lights.

[Dillmiester]

Nothiing to do with being 'pro'. It's to do with H&S.
I take H&S very seriously and I dont want to come accross as anything else.
Even though I dont do many gigs at the moment I always ensure my working area and surroundings are safe. This includes taping down all power cables running to the desk and tying up any loose leads etc. All equipment is now PAT tested thanks to a friend who has passed the training.
My heavy lights also have cable ties around them, this is also to assure they dont move from there position as my scanners have a habit of lowering in the bracket however its also a backup should the bolt fail.
However I still stand by my comment about the PAR LED's not needing safety chains...

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

However I still stand by my comment about the PAR LED's not needing safety chains...

And if they fell off and someone tried to sue you, do you really thing your insurance company would pay out?

[One Vision]

Safety first at the end of day, Darren is a pro like alot of us on this forum and lets face it would you be wanting to deal with the insureance claim because someone has a Martin EFX500 stuck in their head when you could of spent that extra 30 secons just clipping a safety chain around it.

I was refering to that statement in regards to being pro.


Nothiing to do with being 'pro'. It's to do with H&S.

Am fully aware of H&S Darren its all a case of were you draw line.
There is next to no weight in the led light, yes with heavy lights it makes good sens and good practice.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No, it makes good sense and good practise to use them on everything. As I just posted, if something came off a bar and bounced on a childs head and the parents sued you, do you really think the insurance company would pay out?

A safety chain is inexpensive and takes seconds to put on. Where is the arguement?

[One Vision]

Fair enough

[Dillmiester]

And if they fell off and someone tried to sue you, do you really thing your insurance company would pay out?

"fell off" ???
But my point is, the only way such a light could "fall off" is if the fixing wasnt used correctly, in which case I guess my insurance would be void anyway.

I do accept that if lights are stored on a gantry and not put on and off after each event, then there is a risk over time of things working lose however they should still be checked before every performance.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

OK, perhaps 'fell off' wasn't the correct phrase then.

I still can't believe we are discussing something like this. It is good practise, common sense, inexpensive and will cover you insurance wise.

Where's the argument?

A safety chain/bond etc is less than a fiver and takes less than 10 seconds to put on a fixture, whether it is heavy or not is irrelevant.don't you think?

[Dillmiester]

OK, perhaps 'fell off' wasn't the correct phrase then.

I still can't believe we are discussing something like this. It is good practise, common sense, inexpensive and will cover you insurance wise.

Where's the argument?

A safety chain/bond etc is less than a fiver and takes less than 10 seconds to put on a fixture, whether it is heavy or not is irrelevant.don't you think?

I guess the old saying "you can never be too carefull" is still sound advice.
H&S for H&S sake is one of my pet hates as im surrounded by it at work with things like "risk assesments for using the photo copier" and sometimes common sence seems to go out of the window. I guess its put in place for people who dont have any.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

H&S for H&S sake is one of my pet hates as im surrounded by it at work with things like "risk assesments for using the photo copier"

Don't worry, I agree. Best practice and all that though...

[One Vision]

I just used my noggin and bought some. :p
If anybody is after some check out this one on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SAFETY-WIRE-BOND-PARCAN-STAGE-LIGHTING-DISCOS-DJ_W0QQitemZ360083547173QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item36 0083547173&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I just used my noggin and bought some. :p
If anybody is after some check out this one on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SAFETY-WIRE-BOND-PARCAN-STAGE-LIGHTING-DISCOS-DJ_W0QQitemZ360083547173QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item36 0083547173&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

I wouldn't buy second hand ones either even if they say they are 'new'. They don't even say what they are rated at, which is worrying.

http://ultimax1.com/product.asp?numPageStartPosition=1&P_ID=393&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&strSearchCriteria=&PT_ID=144

Tested and certified and all around a fiver.

[One Vision]

I guess that's where the common sense comes in when they arrive, these will be for pin spots that's all.

[Larry B Entertainment]

Am fully aware of H&S Darren its all a case of were you draw line.
There is next to no weight in the led light, yes with heavy lights it makes good sens and good practice.

Even the smaller lights would hurt if they fell on someone from 2ft.
I use safety chains on all my lights including the LED36's. Is this a bit overkill ? Not considering how much people can sue for these days if anything did land on there head.

[Marc J]

Don't worry, I agree. Best practice and all that though...

http://www.dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/20000/2000/200/23259/23259.strip.gif

[One Vision]

Even the smaller lights would hurt if they fell on someone from 2ft.
I use safety chains on all my lights including the LED36's. Is this a bit overkill ? Not considering how much people can sue for these days if anything did land on there head.

May be the case but at the same time what would the odds be on a par36 actually breaking loose, next thing ill be screwing the deck stand down to the stage on the off chance somebody knocks in to it

[pagan_flame]

I wouldn't buy second hand ones either even if they say they are 'new'. They don't even say what they are rated at, which is worrying.

http://ultimax1.com/product.asp?numPageStartPosition=1&P_ID=393&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&strSearchCriteria=&PT_ID=144

Tested and certified and all around a fiver.

Five quid each? I have safety chains at £1.40 each, rated at 80kg...

...I went to my local hardware store, bought a length of chain and some carabiners. Got to it in the garage with the angle grinder to cut to length - I now have ten chains, total outlay around 14 quid.

No certificate, no rating. But I can swing on them myself without breaking, so if me @ 80kg can't break them, I think they may just be OK with a 3kg LED light. :cool:

[djsteve10]

Five quid each? I have safety chains at £1.40 each, rated at 80kg...

...I went to my local hardware store, bought a length of chain and some carabiners. Got to it in the garage with the angle grinder to cut to length - I now have ten chains, total outlay around 14 quid.

No certificate, no rating. But I can swing on them myself without breaking, so if me @ 80kg can't break them, I think they may just be OK with a 3kg LED light. :cool:

I' liking that idea, Might just have a trip to B&Q tomorrow :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No certificate, no rating.

The conversation has been done before. If you want to save pence by doing it yourself, fine. I would rather get something specifically made for the job and certified. If anything did go wrong, I'd be covered.

[One Vision]

The conversation has been done before. If you want to save pence by doing it yourself, fine. I would rather get something specifically made for the job and certified. If anything did go wrong, I'd be covered.

I dont think there would be an issue of not being covered bud.
I dont know how others do things but all my lights are bolted direct to the bar.
I dont use any kind of additional brackets and the lights I have in general dont move so much that they could come lose, in fact they take some un-doing at the end of the gig.

If I had lights that were particularly heavy or had a lot of movement then yes I agree its almost vital to cover your rear as they are putting obvious strain on the fixings and brackets.
But with many of the lights today, led in particular, once they are bolted on they are solid and going no were even more so if no additional brackets are used.
There is no way that a 13mm bolt with either a spring washer or fibre washers between the steel fitted and at least an additional 20mm of thread is ever going to come lose or to the point were it comes completely off.

I know the argument is that it takes no time to connect a safety chain but that's just down to the individual as a good practice and I agree using them gives you piece of mind.
Safety is based on pure common sense

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Safety is based on pure common sense

Unfortunately, in this day and age, that simply is not true.

[sleah]

I take H&S very seriously and I dont want to come accross as anything else.<snip>My heavy lights also have cable ties around them, ...

WHAT! You take H&S seriously but use cable ties as safeties. I'm afraid that's almost as bad as not using any. A cable tie is exactly that - a cable tie. It has NO SWL rating. If a bolt failed on a heavy light, the cable tie could just snap or come undone.
You might think the cable tie will hold, but can you guarentee that?
Using cable ties for anything else is on very dodgy ground, we've all done it I'm sure, but don't boast about it!!!
In a very extreme case, you could be done for negligence or having an unsafe working practice.

[One Vision]

Unfortunately, in this day and age, that simply is not true.

In what way isn't it true, I have worked all my working life in a trade and never had any serious injuries or caused any, although I have seen a few who have and has always been down to the lack of common sense.

With any trade if your not switched on in regards to common sense your simply an accident waiting to happen.
Its mainly due to people like that why the H&S are so stringent these days.
Even fitting fascia boards your required to wear a safety hat these days.
What you going to bang your head on?
In my experience your more likely to bang ya head actually wearing one as you cant see above you properly and they have a tendency of falling forward so your not concentrating on the job properly as your forever straitening your hard hat.

With some of the H&S regulations your actually being forced to work against better judgement or common sense.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

You obviously didn't read my post properly.

H&S regulations are so tight that it takes common sense out of the equation.

[One Vision]

Sorry, yes I agree, if you use common sense though you not go far wrong in life.
Am not saying its wrong to use cables but sometimes I feel some go a bit far when is unnecessary, like I always say measure twice cut once.

[pagan_flame]

The conversation has been done before. If you want to save pence by doing it yourself, fine. I would rather get something specifically made for the job and certified. If anything did go wrong, I'd be covered.

So you think that if the wire fails and the light falls on someone, the certificate will be worth anything in today's compensation culture?

I have saved 85 quid, not pence - I'll take something that I know, from personal testing, will hold over 80kg instead of a wire tested by someone else to 25 kg.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

So you think that if the wire fails and the light falls on someone, the certificate will be worth anything in today's compensation culture?



When it comes to official documentation and PLI claims, then yes.

[One Vision]

Got the cables this morning and as stated brand new.
They say MSG 2007 and rated 10kg max, my dynarocks are 4.5kg each so I expect they would be ok for them, I don't actually need any on the pin spots as they are prewired and bolted to the truss bar and all the wires cable tied on, they are not going anywhere.

They are the same type as in this pick but the 10kg version, although mine have like a clamp that bolts on one end, I'm assuming this is to go directly on to the separate safety eye on some lights and mirror balls?

[mr rusty]

maplins do safety wires at £4.99. The long ones are easily used across a couple of lights on a bar - no reason why you have to have one wire per fitting as good practice is just to have a secondary means of support if the primary fails. Personally I think these are essential if using g clamp hangers, and good practice even if bolting lights on - looks professional and does ensure there is no scope for any problem should something happen. For those people saying it isn't essential with bolted fittings, remember there is always the possibility of 1) threads weakening and stripping - especially with cheap wingnuts and 2) a "rogue" bolt getting used with a slightly small thread size which might seem to tighten up but could let go

[One Vision]

maplins do safety wires at £4.99. The long ones are easily used across a couple of lights on a bar - no reason why you have to have one wire per fitting as good practice is just to have a secondary means of support if the primary fails. Personally I think these are essential if using g clamp hangers, and good practice even if bolting lights on - looks professional and does ensure there is no scope for any problem should something happen. For those people saying it isn't essential with bolted fittings, remember there is always the possibility of 1) threads weakening and stripping - especially with cheap wingnuts and 2) a "rogue" bolt getting used with a slightly small thread size which might seem to tighten up but could let go

Some good alternative food for thought there :HappySteve: