What would you sacrifice???

[Tom]

I don't know if this is a bit advanced for some people but I am interested in other people views on this.



If you ever wondered why there are no speaker cabs on the market that are small, loud and go far down in the hz range, this is because of something called the Hoffman's Iron Law.


The Hoffman's Iron Law details the relationship between the loudspeaker's efficiency, it's box size and its low frequency cut off point.

Hoffman's Iron Law states that you can have 2 out of these three things.

All us DJ's want small and loud speakers. Also with the subs that they can play real sub bass loud ie. 80hz down to 30hz for example, not that we really need 30hz, but it some genres of music, it's handy to have.


If you could sacrifice either size of speaker cab, loudspeaker efficiency or low cut off point, which would it be?

[Cj_The_Dj]

for me it would be size, depending on what sort of venue i do.

[Mark Wild]

Get a life Tom :D

[Tom]

Get a life Tom :D

The bay don't seem to have any on there at the moment.:D

Will keep looking though. lol

[Mark Wild]

Well whatever you do mate, don't buy one from Sterling Flight Cases.

[Tom]

Well whatever you do mate, don't buy one from Sterling Flight Cases.

Yeah, might not arrrive. lol.

[A1DL]

If you could sacrifice either size of speaker cab, loudspeaker efficiency or low cut off point, which would it be?

Leaving transport, storage, amplification, AC power provision, etc aside, it still depends on the application, Tom.

For a small upmarket wedding or corporate event, efficiency & cabinet size will be very important, with lots of bottom end not required. Discreet, aesthetically pleasing boxes are the order of the day.

For a club night or live SR, loads of bottom end will be No.1 on the agenda, 99% of promoters love big stacks, in fact most don't know the meaning of "efficiency" in this context, or believe it is measured in feet (distance between top of stack and the floor :) ). There's a 63/3 on stage so a big pile of horns strapped down with a rack of Labs or Macros either side and Bob's your Uncle.

[Tom]

Leaving transport, storage, amplification, AC power provision, etc aside, it still depends on the application, Tom.

For a small upmarket wedding or corporate event, efficiency & cabinet size will be very important, with lots of bottom end not required. Discreet, aesthetically pleasing boxes are the order of the day.

For a club night or live SR, loads of bottom end will be No.1 on the agenda, 99% of promoters love big stacks, in fact most don't know the meaning of "efficiency" in this context, or believe it is measured in feet (distance between top of stack and the floor :) ). There's a 63/3 on stage so a big pile of horns strapped down with a rack of Labs or Macros either side and Bob's your Uncle.


Ok, where I agree with that, I am talking about mobile discos. You wont get promoters at 18th birthday partys for example. I know that most kids like there bass but dont forget that not all teens are in to bass heavy music.

I wasn't just talking about bass cabs. I understand if thats how my first post looked like but the 80hz down to 30hz was just an example for anyone who don't know what I mean. I know you do. lol.

For me, I would sacrifice efficiency. The reason being is that for my work, I need everythging to small and compact. Plus as I do a lot of 18th birthdays, I tend to find they like to dance right in front of me. So if they dance right infront of the rig then they will get the full grunt of the subs, yet others sitting around the hall will not have to listen to all that thumping bass all night. They will still hear it, but just not to intense.

So if I loose efficiency, I need more power. You can have a 2U amp that can be 300 watts per side or 2000 watts per side. Still the same size amp, just weighs more.

[Excalibur]

99% of promoters love big stacks, in fact most don't know the meaning of "efficiency" in this context, or believe it is measured in feet (distance between top of stack and the floor :) ). .

You mean it isn't? :confused: :confused: :sofa:

[nigelwright7557]

I mix my speakers to get a full range.

I use a 2 by 12 inch cab that is full range but also use an 18 inch sub to get a decent low end.
I love the sound of the big bass speakers.

You have to remember that human hearing rolls off at the low end anyway.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Hoffman's Iron Law doesnt exist as far as Nigels cabs are concerned anyway :D 2x12 inch? Is that 2 inch deep?

[A1DL]

You mean it isn't? :confused: :confused: :sofa:

oops, I meant Metres & Centimetres Peter, call me old fashioned :p

[nigelwright7557]

Hoffman's Iron Law doesnt exist as far as Nigels cabs are concerned anyway :D 2x12 inch? Is that 2 inch deep?

Sorry i should have explained better.

2 off 12 inch speakers in one cabinet.

1 off 18 inch speaker in one cabinet.

[A1DL]

Sorry i should have explained better.

2 off 12 inch speakers in one cabinet.

1 off 18 inch speaker in one cabinet.


Haven't you explained all this before, Nigel.
I recall a thread recently regarding crossovers when it cropped up.
It feels repetitive. Perhaps it's just me.

[nigelwright7557]

Haven't you explained all this before, Nigel.
I recall a thread recently regarding crossovers when it cropped up.
It feels repetitive. Perhaps it's just me.

But what about all the new members ?

I am not just mesaging you ! :bang:

[Tom]

To be honest, I dont think other members would be interested in your speakers (I could be mistaken), unless you plan to sell them. But with that, I would expect to see plot charts and all the rest of it.

[nigelwright7557]

To be honest, I dont think other members would be interested in your speakers (I could be mistaken), unless you plan to sell them. But with that, I would expect to see plot charts and all the rest of it.

I wasnt suggesting anyone would be interested in buying my speakers.
In fact I am not selling any at the mo.

My point was that I use an 18 inch speaker to get the bass I require.
That means if someone wants to follow my advice they will go for a cab with an 18 inch driver in it to get serious bass.

[yourdj]

size. i would rather buy an extra bin and have it as back up rather than cart massive speakers around.

[nigelwright7557]

size. i would rather buy an extra bin and have it as back up rather than cart massive speakers around.

The 18 inch cab is no bigger than the 2 by 12 inch cab.
Both are managable.

[A1DL]

To be honest, I dont think other members would be interested in your speakers

:agree:


unless you plan to sell them.

From what we've seen & heard about them Nigey, I can't see anyone being interested, other than to avoid bidding on them! All the rough looking home made cabs I've ever seen have sounded as bad as they look.

You disregard some very basic principles in speaker design and usage, the wheels on the base, "not believing" in crossovers and chucking full range frequencies into all cabs, etc.

[nigelwright7557]

:agree:



From what we've seen & heard about them Nigey, I can't see anyone being interested, other than to avoid bidding on them! All the rough looking home made cabs I've ever seen have sounded as bad as they look.

You disregard some very basic principles in speaker design and usage, the wheels on the base, "not believing" in crossovers and chucking full range frequencies into all cabs, etc.

Then why do they sound so good ?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating !

[Tom]

I wasnt suggesting anyone would be interested in buying my speakers.
In fact I am not selling any at the mo.

My point was that I use an 18 inch speaker to get the bass I require.
That means if someone wants to follow my advice they will go for a cab with an 18 inch driver in it to get serious bass.

Not selling at the moment. So you plan too???

You dont have to use 18" drivers to get the bass across. You can even use 12" drivers now. They are very inefficient but they can go down 40hz, some even 35hz in a reflex cab.


size. i would rather buy an extra bin and have it as back up rather than cart massive speakers around.

I agree with you. I would rather use a few small cabs instead of using one large cab. I see it as more flexibility really.


Then why do they sound so good ?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating !

They might sound good to you but not to others.

You also said not to long ago that the port is on the back. So if you are DJ'ing, then you will be hearing the bass where as in front it's doing to sound punchy, nothing else.

[nigelwright7557]

They might sound good to you but not to others.



Never had any complaints just a few comments about the great sound.

[Corabar Steve]

What would you sacrifice???

I would sacrifice Nigel. Then we all might get some peace around here.

[nigelwright7557]

I would sacrifice Nigel. Then we all might get some peace around here.

It would be pretty boring tho.

[Excalibur]

I would sacrifice Nigel. Then we all might get some peace around here.

Bad news is that as a formerly married man, he's not eligible for the Wicca/Wicker Man. :( :(

[nigelwright7557]

Bad news is that as a formerly married man, he's not eligible for the Wicca/Wicker Man. :( :(

I used to go out with a Druid priestess.
She was into sacrifice so I got out quick !:eek:

[Tom]

:ontopic: :o

[sleah]

You can even use 12" drivers now. They are very inefficient but they can go down 40hz, some even 35hz in a reflex cab.

Bass cabs loaded with 12's have been round a long time, well with 2 x 12's anyway.

Bose 302 anyone??:D

The downside to the Bose bins is they were made from solid concrete:p:D:D

I prefer smaller light weight cabs, for mobile use. The ideal scenario being small cabs with very efficient drivers, which are around but at a cost.

[Tom]

Bass cabs loaded with 12's have been round a long time, well with 2 x 12's anyway.

Bose 302 anyone??:D

The downside to the Bose bins is they were made from solid concrete:p:D:D

I prefer smaller light weight cabs, for mobile use. The ideal scenario being small cabs with very efficient drivers, which are around but at a cost.

Where this is true, there are not a lot on the market.


From what I have been reading, to get big power from a small cab you need a efficient driver that has a large xmax to move the air and also with a large magnet. You then use thousands of watts into a 200 watt driver for example. I don't fully understand fully but a low volume on the amp it pumps out more volts to the driver which makes it better when using it in a small cab. No idea how its done butvery interesting.

Anyway. Lol


You can get a single 12 inch in a horn speaker. Goes down to 40hz in a pair and high spl. :D.

Just a bit to big for my car. Lol

[sleah]

Where this is true, there are not a lot on the market.


& bloomin expensive!



Just a bit to big for my car. Lol

:p:pBoy Racer:p:p :D:D



You then use thousands of watts into a 200 watt driver for example. I don't fully understand fully but a low volume on the amp it pumps out more volts to the driver which makes it better when using it in a small cab

Not sure about the watts thing. Watts is the electrical power, not the amount of sound. So a 200w driver can only handle 200w however you send it in there....
SPL (sound pressure level) is the measure of sound. A very efficient drive will not require so many volts or watts to make the same amount of noise.
In simple terms(:D) an effient speaker will sound like it's putting out more watts than a similar in-efficient one, but it's actually putting out more decibels (unit of sound) for less electrical watts.
So with efficent drivers, you will need lower wattage amps to get the same sound volume as in-efficient drivers.

A 200w driver with max spl of 103db is twice the sound output of a 200w with max spl of 100db.

Sound doubles every 3db, although we don't quite hear it like that....


Hope that's confused hell out of everyone:p:D:D:D:D

[A1DL]

A 200w driver with max spl of 103db is twice the sound output of a 200w with max spl of 100db.

Sound doubles every 3db, although we don't quite hear it like that....



Not quite...

Assuming all factors are even (same efficiency cabs & amps and no external influences - weather, etc.) to double the perceived volume (+10dB) requires ten times the amplifier power.

Doubling the amplifier power gives +3dB

Doubling the distance from the source gives -6db

[Tom]

:p:pBoy Racer:p:p :D:D



Don't think so. lol.

I drive a family hatch. Not really boy racer style. lol.



Not sure about the watts thing. Watts is the electrical power, not the amount of sound. So a 200w driver can only handle 200w however you send it in there....
SPL (sound pressure level) is the measure of sound. A very efficient drive will not require so many volts or watts to make the same amount of noise.
In simple terms(:D) an effient speaker will sound like it's putting out more watts than a similar in-efficient one, but it's actually putting out more decibels (unit of sound) for less electrical watts.
So with efficent drivers, you will need lower wattage amps to get the same sound volume as in-efficient drivers.



I already know what you have written but there is sceince behind it. I dont fully understand how its done but it can be done. :)




A 200w driver with max spl of 103db is twice the sound output of a 200w with max spl of 100db.



Only 103db max spl. :eek:

Maby you mean 1w@1m??? ;):D

[sleah]

Only 103db max spl. :eek:


Just pulling figures out of the air for illustration:)
Yeah, at 103db you wouldn't hear it across the room:D:D



Maby you mean 1w@1m??? ;):D

I was generalising for the benifit of people who may not fully understand how sound pressure is measured, just to try and make it a little easier to understand:D

[Tom]

Just pulling figures out of the air for illustration:)
Yeah, at 103db you wouldn't hear it across the room:D:D



I was generalising for the benifit of people who may not fully understand how sound pressure is measured, just to try and make it a little easier to understand:D

:approve: :D