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Cheesey 1975
07-02-2009, 09:28 PM
:bang: Folks

Thought I would share a story with you.

Last night I worked at a new venue - Nags Head Studley (covering for adam f) :beer1: :beer1:

Adam warned me in advance about sound limiter and to be careful.......

However It still managed or was it to cut out no fewer than 14 times in the night and 6 times in one song :o :o

Song choice at time was Girls Aloud - Call the Shots !!!!! :bang:

But all in all a good night and turned in to a game trying to not cut off music

However my piece de resistance was Kid Cudi - Day n Nite..... And guess what happened ????? :bang: :bang:

nigelwright7557
07-02-2009, 09:42 PM
:bang: Folks

Thought I would share a story with you.

Last night I worked at a new venue - Nags Head Studley (covering for adam f) :beer1: :beer1:

Adam warned me in advance about sound limiter and to be careful.......

However It still managed or was it to cut out no fewer than 14 times in the night and 6 times in one song :o :o


I would have opened it up and shorted out the disconnection relay !
Not recommened unless your qualified to do it !

Cheesey 1975
07-02-2009, 09:45 PM
I would have opened it up and shorted out the disconnection relay !
Not recommened unless your qualified to do it !

Nigel

Cheers and the manager had already had environmental health out to check levels earlier in week !!!

Not quite sure then :confused: :confused:

May have to speak with adam again !!!! :zip: :zip:

Tom
07-02-2009, 10:27 PM
I would have opened it up and shorted out the disconnection relay !
Not recommened unless your qualified to do it !

Wether you are qualified or not, you should not be doing things like this!

Sound limiters are inplace for a reason, to keep the sound down. :bang:

nigelwright7557
07-02-2009, 10:50 PM
Wether you are qualified or not, you should not be doing things like this!

Sound limiters are inplace for a reason, to keep the sound down. :bang:

I wondered why they were there :D

Corabar Steve
08-02-2009, 11:11 AM
I would have opened it up and shorted out the disconnection relay !
Not recommened unless your qualified to do it !

Sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but that has to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen on this forum.

rob1963
08-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Ever since a poorly set limiter cut everything off halfway through the first dance at a wedding last year, I decided not to work in venues with these devices anymore, as they can basically ruin the night.

I've stuck to this policy, and even refused a booking last year when advised that the venue had a limiter.

ppentertainments
08-02-2009, 11:25 AM
All the ones I have worked with have had a progression of lights - green to amber to red with about 4 of each colour going up in turn. Apart from looking at the thing all night never really had any problem. I did work in one venue which has a reputation for the poor sound limiter but luckily not many people turned up so was fine.

Although sound limiters are a pain I believe it is the entertainments industry as a whole who are to blame for their existance. I am sure we have all worked with, or seen, bands or DJ's playing at ridiculously loud sound levels.

BTW Nigel - I bet venue owners / managers love seeing you down on your hands and knees with your screwdriver and soldering iron in hand :D :D

geoffrey
08-02-2009, 12:17 PM
When working with sound limiters, sometimes you get two choices, bypass the sockets if you happen to know the manager and they trust you to not play way too loud or simply substitute the bass for volume. There are a lot of stories in circulation about making sound limiters compulsory. If some idiot had the volume up way too high you can damage somebody’s hearing and your own for life. Also you can be prosecuted. Health and safety has gone a little silly latley. its partly due to these solicitors that will prosecute on your behalf and it wont cost you a penny! Well that’s what I was told by the HSE.

Excalibur
08-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but that has to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen on this forum.
:zip: :D

Ever since a poorly set limiter cut everything off halfway through the first dance at a wedding last year, I decided not to work in venues with these devices anymore, as they can basically ruin the night.

I've stuck to this policy, and even refused a booking last year when advised that the venue had a limiter.
I'd probably not refuse out of hand, but I'd either use a laptop based playout system, or power the Cortex via UPS. I'm not sure how big/expensive a one I'd need to keep an amp running for a couple of seconds while it reset. :confused: Certainly be a case for downsizing the rig for that type of venue. ;)


All the ones I have worked with have had a progression of lights - green to amber to red with about 4 of each colour going up in turn. Apart from looking at the thing all night never really had any problem. I did work in one venue which has a reputation for the poor sound limiter but luckily not many people turned up so was fine.

Although sound limiters are a pain I believe it is the entertainments industry as a whole who are to blame for their existance. I am sure we have all worked with, or seen, bands or DJ's playing at ridiculously loud sound levels.


Not seen many, but they're a pain. :( Trying to bypass them is not the answer, we have to try to minimise their effects, as indicated above. Bypassing them, and winding the sound up regardless is guaranteed to inflame matters.

501damian501
13-02-2009, 05:10 PM
slack back on the bass and turn the volume down a little.

Excalibur
13-02-2009, 06:58 PM
slack back on the bass and turn the volume down a little.

You must know something I don't. :confused: I've not yet found the EQ and Gain controls on a Punter. :confused: :o :o :o

Solitaire Events Ltd
13-02-2009, 07:05 PM
You must know something I don't. :confused: I've not yet found the EQ and Gain controls on a Punter. :confused: :o :o :o

Last time I worked in a venue with one, I used a sub and had no problems until I spoke. It appears the frequencies in my vocals set it off. :eek:

Tom
13-02-2009, 07:07 PM
Sub harmonic vocal range??? lol

ppentertainments
13-02-2009, 07:16 PM
Last time I worked in a venue with one, I used a sub and had no problems until I spoke. It appears the frequencies in my vocals set it off. :eek:
Either that or they were trying to tell you something :D :D :D

I have worked at one venue where no matter how loud I turned the music up or how much bass I put through, there was no problem. However if anyone scraped the chair on the wooden floor (that horrible squealing sound) off it went :confused: :confused:

Excalibur
13-02-2009, 07:26 PM
Last time I worked in a venue with one, I used a sub and had no problems until I spoke. It appears the frequencies in my vocals set it off. :eek:

Move over Barry White, eh? :D :D

Cheesey 1975
13-02-2009, 07:50 PM
Thats really funny

Jiggles
13-02-2009, 07:56 PM
Move over Barry White, eh? :D :D

Someone call :D

13-02-2009, 08:33 PM
i've worked at a venue a few times over the last couple of weeks and they have a limiter in their marquee, they insist you plug your audio leads into it so it patches in between the mixer and your amp.

If you turn the volume up too loud & the volume reaches the level the limiter is set at, it then compresses the sound, no matter how much you turn the signal up, it won't allow the volume to get any louder, it doesn't cut the electric off, so it's almost win win.

This has to be by far the most sensible way of using a limiter that i have encoutered, if it's of interest to anyone, i'll find out who the manufacturer is next time I there.

DeckstarDeluxe
13-02-2009, 08:41 PM
Please do! Was the limit set at a sensible level?

Tom
13-02-2009, 08:41 PM
It's like using a compressor in a music studio.

You have the kick drum all setup, but to keep it at a constant volume with no peaks, you add a compressor to keep the high levels down.

That way, the drummer can hit the drum as hard or soft as he likes, it still going to be the same volume when recording. Sames goes to live gigs, which is where we come in.

I do have one worry about these.

Some of the sound limiters I have worked with only measure the bass, as this is whats annoying if you don't want to hear it. If you have some bass heavy music you are going to get that bouce affect like Call On Me by Eric Pryds. Every bass beat it louder than the rest of the song, then when there is no bass the rest of the volume raises up, the kick drum comes back in and thats louder again if you get me???

13-02-2009, 08:45 PM
Please do! Was the limit set at a sensible level?

It was reasonable, loud enough on the dancefloor area.

Adam_F
14-02-2009, 02:44 AM
I would have opened it up and shorted out the disconnection relay !
Not recommened unless your qualified to do it !

What??

How many venues let you re-wire their electrics for your performance??


Wether you are qualified or not, you should not be doing things like this!

Sound limiters are inplace for a reason, to keep the sound down. :bang:

LoL

Yep, talk about a cowboy!!


Sorry if this sounds a little blunt, but that has to be one of the most idiotic things I've ever seen on this forum.

Weren't just me then Steve :D


slack back on the bass and turn the volume down a little.


You must know something I don't. :confused: I've not yet found the EQ and Gain controls on a Punter. :confused: :o :o :o

Same here!

mr rusty
14-02-2009, 06:54 PM
you turn the volume up too loud & the volume reaches the level the limiter is set at, it then compresses the sound, no matter how much you turn the signal up, it won't allow the volume to get any louder, it doesn't cut the electric off, so it's almost win win.


This may be a good idea for everyone that plays at sound limited venues. The problem is that different tracks often have different peak volumes, and loud spikes can trigger the sound limiter.

There is absolutely no reason why you cant buy an inexpensive compressor/limiter like this one
http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?id=187
and put it between your mixer and amp. For those who don't understand compressing/limiting here's a quick description:- Compression is when you set a threshold "volume" and then anything above that gets reduced by a percentage of what it would have been. this is the compression ratio e.g 4:1 where the volume above the threshold would only increase by 1db for every 4db of peak signal over the threshold. What happens is the very loud bits get squashed so they aren't quite as loud as they would have been without compression, and the soft bits stay the same. Limiting is just aggressive compression where instead of a gradual squashing, the threshold is a stonewall above which no signal peak can get through. i.e. the ratio is infinity. Most compressors usually have a control that makes the compression ratio variable depending on how far over the threshold the signal is- often described as "soft knee" which in effect make the compressor squash a little bit for the signals that only just cross the threshold but clamp down hard on the big peaks. This often sounds better than just limiting. You can alternatively often set them to compress at a gentle ratio, say 5:1 above the threshold but also set a limiter at another threshold to catch anything that gets a bit too loud even when compressed.

The end result is that if you set the compressor/limiter so peak volumes just don't trigger the venue sound limiter, you would be able to get a "louder" sound by in effect winding up the quiet bits. Think of TV adverts - they actually aren't any louder than the programmes in that the peak volume is the same - they are just highly compressed so the quiet bits are louder.

The downside to using a compressor would be 1) lots of commercial music is already quite highly compressed, so there isn't much dynamic range available for additional compression without distortion and 2) you really do have to understand out how the things work so you can set the settings correctly - you really can't just guess.

Food for thought

DJMaxG
07-04-2009, 01:24 PM
Take my advice, don't connect to it.

The plug socket directly next to it will usually be the one that is wired in directly to the limiter. Try to connect onto a seperate ring.

What sound system were you using, how many watts?

----------------------------------

I know a couple of Guys up North who manage to blow a sound limiter about six times, and only used 15 inch plastic cabs.

---------------------------------

The Unit works by decibels, not wattage, so can trigger on a high note.

Excalibur
07-04-2009, 01:30 PM
Take my advice, don't connect to it.

The plug socket directly next to it will usually be the one that is wired in directly to the limiter. Try to connect onto a seperate ring.

What sound system were you using, how many watts?

----------------------------------

I know a couple of Guys up North who manage to blow a sound limiter about six times, and only used 15 inch plastic cabs.

---------------------------------

The Unit works by decibels, not wattage, so can trigger on a high note.

You don't have an uncle called Nigel, do you? Lives in Cumbria? :confused:

Dynamic Entertainment
07-04-2009, 01:34 PM
You don't have an uncle called Nigel, do you? Lives in Cumbria? :confused:

:rofl:

Vectis
07-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Take my advice, don't connect to it.

Much as we jocks hate them, these devices are fitted for a reason - usually to allow the venue to retain an entertainments licence amid regular complaints from local residents.

Bypass = venue risks license = less licenses granted = venues closing = less work for DJs? :bang:

Bypass = venue loses license = venue sues DJ? :bang: :bang:

Learn to live with them :)

Careful EQing will let you work around the sensitive frequencies to a certain degree. A small UPS across your playout device and DMX desk prevents long reboot times. A surge suppressor against your amps should be sufficient. At the end of the day, if you trigger the sound limiter and damage your equipment, it was your action that caused it.

A1DL
07-04-2009, 03:01 PM
What sound system were you using, how many watts?


Max

what's the relevance of power consumption? :confused:

It's sound levels that activate limiting devices, not the power consumption of a transducer. We measure sound levels in decibels, not watts.

Tony

JAMdisco
07-04-2009, 03:36 PM
I played at a venue with one (can't remember the name of the venue for the life of me - it will come). Apparently they still had the traffic light system but they said, don't worry, we've bypassed it and it doesn't work anymore.

Thank god for that, I looked at the traffic lights and they were in the red even during the background music and chitter chatter from the crowd.

I mentioned it to the organiser and asked him if the threshold had been changed, he said 'no, that's why we disconnected it'.

Throughout the night, and not painfully loud, they were full red all night.

Unluckily for me though, the back fire door DID cut off power to the stage area and even after I'd mentioned it a few times, some drunk punter opened it to go outside for a cig. Big cheers from the crowd, big frown from me, and a very embarrassed punter :o

Luckily, no damage caused. :D :p :D

Corabar Steve
08-04-2009, 09:09 AM
Max

what's the relevance of power consumption? :confused:

It's sound levels that activate limiting devices, not the power consumption of a transducer. We measure sound levels in decibels, not watts.

Tony
Just ignore him until he actually posts something of some use Tony.

All I've seen so far is pointless posts in long dead threads & multiple consecutive replies.

I'm deleting some of the posts & the consecutive replies are being merged.

Max, just let your post count build itself naturally (playing silly buggers usually results in it taking a lot longer to reach 100 posts than contributing usefully to the forum). It doesn't take a genius to notice that 3 months after your join date there are a sudden flurry of posts, which makes it very obvious that you have something to sell & the 3 month 100 posts rule has buggered up your plan.

Big Brother is not only watching, but taking note.

Excalibur
08-04-2009, 09:26 AM
I played at a venue with one (can't remember the name of the venue for the life of me - it will come). Apparently they still had the traffic light system but they said, don't worry, we've bypassed it and it doesn't work anymore.

Unluckily for me though, the back fire door DID cut off power to the stage area and even after I'd mentioned it a few times, some drunk punter opened it to go outside for a cig. Big cheers from the crowd, big frown from me, and a very embarrassed punter :o

Luckily, no damage caused. :D :p :D

Never mind cutting off power to the stage, problems occur if it's wired to the fire station. I know a DJ who was leaving a venue in his customary manner, cleared a path through the drum kit to said exit, and started to load up. Drummer returns, and enquires who turned off the alarm, in order to allow this egress? A moment of quiet thought followed, then realisation, and then the distant sound of fire engines could be heard. :eek: Oops.

(It's in Hull, so when it happens to you, I'll laugh. :D )

JAMdisco
08-04-2009, 11:25 AM
Never mind cutting off power to the stage, problems occur if it's wired to the fire station. I know a DJ who was leaving a venue in his customary manner, cleared a path through the drum kit to said exit, and started to load up. Drummer returns, and enquires who turned off the alarm, in order to allow this egress? A moment of quiet thought followed, then realisation, and then the distant sound of fire engines could be heard. :eek: Oops.

(It's in Hull, so when it happens to you, I'll laugh. :D )

Ah, to have such nice friends! :p :p :p

Rodrik
14-04-2009, 09:24 AM
I think sound limiter is good because it keep the sound down.because using the high range sound is idiotic thing.

cosmicdiscos
14-04-2009, 09:23 PM
there's one at the holiday inn by me, its not a series of green and orange lights, its just 1 red light on the wall. the manager said if it starts flashing your too loud and to turn it down otherwise it will trip the circuit. it was a nightmare, i could hear people eating their food lous=der than the music!!!

cosmicdiscos
14-04-2009, 09:24 PM
louder that should be!