Sound system (again) !!

[ppentertainments]

Just after suggestions here, I have an idea but would like other ideas.
I am installing a sound system in a regular venue which has recently expanded. The room will hold 130 people.

I am a lover of the w-audio 1300 amps so would ideally use these and I am also a fan of class-d which may be my choice.

I am open minded though so after suggestions. Price wise is probably middle of the road but what suggestions ?? Amps, speakers, crossover.

[501damian501]

i would go for a set of 12inch class d's and acouple of subs, go onto their website and price it up :D , or you expecting me to price it up :D

i went with the cd15p's from the class d range :p , take alook at the cd12p's

amps, warrior ampilfiers are good and i know a person on the forum who used one before getting a pair of toasters (no names mentioned).

but seriously look into a c mark ampilfier or a t-amp.

[Cj_The_Dj]

do you have a buget ??

i also have a pair of peavey pro 15s just need new horns i can fit. your for 50pound with out horns :)

[Cowlinn]

do you have a buget ??

i also have a pair of peavey pro 15s just need new horns i can fit. your for 50pound with out horns :)

No, He may have a Budget though :D

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Or a Budgie... :D, Damien has said something that makes a bit of sense! :D

[ppentertainments]

do you have a buget ??

i also have a pair of peavey pro 15s just need new horns i can fit. your for 50pound with out horns :)

Budget would be mid-range, not looking too closely at price.

Thanks for the offer but am going to buy new.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Surely if you are looking at Class D, Warrior and Peavey you have a fairly low budget? That isn't mid range gear for my money.

[501damian501]

Budget would be mid-range, not looking too closely at price.

Thanks for the offer but am going to buy new.

cant blame you matey :D

yes but darren we dont all have limited companys...

[ppentertainments]

Surely if you are looking at Class D, Warrior and Peavey you have a fairly low budget? That isn't mid range gear for my money.

I class Prosound, skytec etc as low budget. Class-D may be low budget but as far as performance goes I class them as mid-range.

Warrior may be low budget but again I think reliablity and performance raises this up a class or 2.

I am not a firm believer of you get what you pay for. Yes this applies to a certain degree but not on every occasion.

(Note to self: do not start another mackie v class-D debate) :D :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I class Prosound, skytec etc as low budget. Class-D may be low budget but as far as performance goes I class them as mid-range.

Warrior may be low budget but again I think reliablity and performance raises this up a class or 2.

I am not a firm believer of you get what you pay for. Yes this applies to a certain degree but not on every occasion.

(Note to self: do not start another mackie v class-D debate) :D :D

Not sure about that.

We are talking price I thought and Class D are budget.

[501damian501]

Class d are mid range to be honest darren, look at the rubbish soundlab and skytec kick out, does the red carpet or blue carpet make them better ?

i know skytec kick out some more up market plastic cabs, ect ect, but my brain tells me to stay clear of them.

NOW LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC, INSTEAD OF IT TURNING INTO A MID PRICE VS LOW END VS DENON, S&H, PIONEER, MACKIE!

[ppentertainments]

Not sure about that.

We are talking price I thought and Class D are budget.

This week they maybe are but the way the prices are increasing could be different next week :D :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Class d are mid range to be honest darren, look at the rubbish soundlab and skytec kick out, does the red carpet or blue carpet make them better ?

i know skytec kick out some more up market plastic cabs, ect ect, but my brain tells me to stay clear of them.

NOW LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC, INSTEAD OF IT TURNING INTO A MID PRICE VS LOW END VS DENON, S&H, PIONEER, MACKIE!

No-one is turning it into that at all and I am getting a bit fed up with your constant stupid comments.

You are not a mod, so please keep your nose out.

With regards to Class D, they are a budget cab. Anything under £300/pair is classed as a budget cab IMO. I am not commenting on how good they are - I have heard lots of good reports, but they are still a budget cab.

[Tom]

Class D are budget speakers but are better then Skytec, Soundlab and a few other brands I would say.

[501damian501]

in your statement darren, my speakers are not budget which i have, http://www.classd.ltd.uk/product.php?productid=16142&cat=0&page=1 , so am not branded as the budget speaker buyer

[Cj_The_Dj]

skytec and sound lab are budget, but i have made the neighbors complain from a pair of 150w peak 8" skytec and the quit good in the house.

[Babybob]

When you bought them Damian they were budget but because they have gone up in price they are now mid range so you've got a good deal and a better class of speaker so it's win win mate.;)

[501damian501]

well infacted, i got them for just over £200 with p&p included, so its all win win

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

in your statement darren, my speakers are not budget which i have, http://www.classd.ltd.uk/product.php?productid=16142&cat=0&page=1 , so am not branded as the budget speaker buyer

I didn't brand you anything.

Why are you getting so excited for? You own a pair of Class Ds. You didn't design them. They are generally budget speakers.

[501damian501]

excited, am not excited over anything... their only speakers...

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

excited, am not excited over anything... their only speakers...

So why keep trying to justify yourself by saying they are not budget.

Back on topic please.

[501damian501]

excited, am not excited over anything... their only speakers, who cares if anything costs £300 or £700, people generaly have a budget because they have other things to buy like food for their familys, how many people on here drive budget cars ??, you can a low end and a high end to every market, and to be honest, i bet they sell more lower end products in certain area than they do high range products!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

excited, am not excited over anything... their only speakers, who cares if anything costs £300 or £700, people generaly have a budget because they have other things to buy like food for their familys, how many people on here drive budget cars ??, you can a low end and a high end to every market, and to be honest, i bet they sell more lower end products in certain area than they do high range products!

What the hell has that got to do with anything.

I will not ask you again Damian.

Back on topic please.

[A1DL]

Back on topic please.

My 2p:

Skytec / Soundlab / Prosound / Gemini / Nigeltronic, etc - no budget!
Class D / Peavey / Deltec, etc - low budget
Mackie / JBL / RCF / db Technologies - mid budget
Turbosound / Martin Audio / d&b Audiotechnik / L'acoustics - blow the budget!

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Martin Audio

Nothing but trouble. Ive been in a couple of clubs that these sound terribe. Not sure if theyve been set up wrong...or just blown...by dodgy djs (the latter is more believable)

[A1DL]

Nothing but trouble. Ive been in a couple of clubs that these sound terribe. Not sure if theyve been set up wrong...or just blown...by dodgy djs (the latter is more believable)

Most cases like this, they were set up right, but where the LMS isn't locked, some DJ will have messed around to try to get another few dBs out of the system... the same type of DJs whom will be redlining all night.

Often the case in non-corporate clubs, where the LMS is in the booth as opposed to locked away in the amp room, or at the very least password protected.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

The first club that springs to mind is our local one, it was originally owned by Luminar Leisure and, even when they were running it it was terrible. Even with the LSM & amps locked in a room in the celler (not the drink celler). Im fairly sure that the amps were/are bigger than the speakers can handle and straight away they blew off the walls. Funnily enoughh, the "pro/famous" djs were/are the worst for redlining. :)

[nigelwright7557]

Im fairly sure that the amps were/are bigger than the speakers can handle and straight away they blew off the walls. Funnily enoughh, the "pro/famous" djs were/are the worst for redlining. :)

Someone who is a DJ isnt automatically a sound engineer or an electronics engineer.

I prefer to shove a couple of hundred watts into a 600WRMS speaker than the other way around. My gear will last longer and wont be stretched even if used by an idiot.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I didnt say anything about a dj setting this system up. It was set up by a professional company who dealt will all of Luminars installs at the time... Make of that what you will ! :D

[nigelwright7557]

I didnt say anything about a dj setting this system up. It was set up by a professional company who dealt will all of Luminars installs at the time... Make of that what you will ! :D

That doesnt mean someone cant redline the mixer.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

No, but IMO a professional installer shoud have some idea the the mixer is going to be caned and ensure the system cannot be blown up. Ive even known one "installer" (who i wont mention in public) who wasnt even aware that Pioneers range of mixers had limiters on the back!

[A1DL]

Someone who is a DJ isnt automatically a sound engineer or an electronics engineer.

I prefer to shove a couple of hundred watts into a 600WRMS speaker than the other way around. My gear will last longer and wont be stretched even if used by an idiot.


I know you're not a sound engineer, Nigel, however the above statement is categorically incorrect.

A 200w amplifier run into clipping by a redlining DJ is far more likely to damage the speaker, than an amplifier with good headroom.

[nigelwright7557]

I know you're not a sound engineer, Nigel, however the above statement is categorically incorrect.

A 200w amplifier run into clipping by a redlining DJ is far more likely to damage the speaker, than an amplifier with good headroom.

Thats odd coz I tested my setup for half an hour with a clipped output and the speaker survived very well !

A clipped output is only 1.414 times a sine wave output so 200w times 1.414 is only 300watts into a 600w speaker, so how is that gonna blow it up ?

Figures please to substantiate your claims.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I know you're not a sound engineer, Nigel,

He may be........ :sofa:


Meant to ask...had Nigel got his own smiley on the quiet.... designing electronic

[Tom]

Thats odd coz I tested my setup for half an hour with a clipped output and the speaker survived very well !

A clipped output is only 1.414 times a sine wave output so 200w times 1.414 is only 300watts into a 600w speaker, so how is that gonna blow it up ?

Figures please to substantiate your claims.

I make that 282.8, not 300. :sofa:

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I didnt say anything about a dj setting this system up. It was set up by a professional company who dealt will all of Luminars installs at the time... Make of that what you will ! :D

Thing is with chains like that is they'll use the cheapest company possible to do all the installs and hence quality suffers.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I know you're not a sound engineer, Nigel, however the above statement is categorically incorrect.

A 200w amplifier run into clipping by a redlining DJ is far more likely to damage the speaker, than an amplifier with good headroom.

How dare he question nigel! :P

[nigelwright7557]

I know you're not a sound engineer, Nigel, however the above statement is categorically incorrect.

.

I am a fully qualified electronics engineer.
Designed electronics systems for around 30 years.

Whats your qualifications?

[Tom]

Just after suggestions here, I have an idea but would like other ideas.
I am installing a sound system in a regular venue which has recently expanded. The room will hold 130 people.

I am a lover of the w-audio 1300 amps so would ideally use these and I am also a fan of class-d which may be my choice.

I am open minded though so after suggestions. Price wise is probably middle of the road but what suggestions ?? Amps, speakers, crossover.


I think a budget would be best to work out otherwise you could spent more than you wanted too. lol. Trust me, I know. lol.

If you use class-d speakers and like the sound, why use different??? You know how they perform so I would say thats your best way to go at the moment till you find something better.

Stick with what you know. :)

[Danieleastwood.com]

Forgive me, I arrived here late. But somewhere along the lines, I'm sure this topic was about peoples opinions on an individuals choice of equipment for his install...

How come the thread is now about luminar club instalation engineers and Nigels Science lessons? (No disrespect Nigel, I appreciate you now your schnizzel) Just confused!

If you ask Me, I would be tempted to go for the best system for the job in hand. While I have no experience of Class D products or Warrior Amps, my spider senses have told me in past situations to look at the requirements and then make the choices. If the Class D's do the job, then you shouldn't have any problems.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Its still, vaugly, about installs. Regardless of the system that is finally decided on, it needs to not be able to be blown up at the first chance it gets.... :D :D

[Danieleastwood.com]

Thats true steve, but that will come down to limiting and other protection equipment.

All this guy needs to know, is if he's making the right choice. As we have a forum full of Class d expereinced jocks. I'm sure he will get his answer... albeit after a quick jog rouound the topic block!

If he's not making the right choice, then I'm sure the numerous Mackie users, RCF users and Martin users will also be able to point out good and bad points of their particular sound systems!

[Excalibur]

Whether we can agree on the exact position of Class-D cabs in the hierarchy of Quality/Price/Aesthetic appeal is of no consequence. Whether they're in the warehouse in Mansfield is! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
If they can't go and kick one, beware. ;)

( I think they appear to have some SP's, which would be my choice anyway.)

As for amps, Warrior get good reviews, but I'd go for C-Mark or Thomann.
( That said, I am looking at the Warrior 1k8. )

[501damian501]

Whether we can agree on the exact position of Class-D cabs in the hierarchy of Quality/Price/Aesthetic appeal is of no consequence. Whether they're in the warehouse in Mansfield is! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
If they can't go and kick one, beware. ;)

( I think they appear to have some SP's, which would be my choice anyway.)

As for amps, Warrior get good reviews, but I'd go for C-Mark or Thomann.
( That said, I am looking at the Warrior 1k8. )

All correct, tbh i dont think class d can keep up with the demand at the moment and this might force them to expand, who knows :D

like i said and will say agian, i think class d and c mark or the thomann t amp are your best bet, cheers damian

[Corabar Steve]

in your statement darren, my speakers are not budget which i have, http://www.classd.ltd.uk/product.php?productid=16142&cat=0&page=1 , so am not branded as the budget speaker buyer
They are budget & they're the kak sounding plastic version too, not even the lovely wooden ones :sj:

[Kernow]

Just after suggestions here, I have an idea but would like other ideas.
I am installing a sound system in a regular venue which has recently expanded. The room will hold 130 people.

I am a lover of the w-audio 1300 amps so would ideally use these and I am also a fan of class-d which may be my choice.

I am open minded though so after suggestions. Price wise is probably middle of the road but what suggestions ?? Amps, speakers, crossover.

OK Back on topic, from a position of experience (and budget perspective) ;)
I have, for my last half dozen gigs, been running a DA1300 through AC Euro ACP112's, which are to all intents & purposes the same as class D. Adding a pair of 15" subs as and when necessary, I, and the clients, been very happy
with the overall performance.

The ACP 115 is also a good choice and won't break the bank.

[501damian501]

They are budget & they're the kak sounding plastic version too, not even the lovely wooden ones :sj:

ive got some lovley wooden ones coming soon :D

more info to come when i get the drivers...

[Excalibur]

They are budget & they're the kak sounding plastic version too, not even the lovely wooden ones :sj:

Steve, much as it pains me to contradict what you say, I shall nevertheless do so. There was a time when I would have agreed totally with you, and even some of the Class-d lads were not overly enamoured of the Jac series of cabs. The new P series however, are a new plastic and do indeed sound lovely, ask Justin, who always takes his out with him. I think he's used the
158's he got at the same time no more than twice. However and I have said this before, and doubtless will again, they are better as tops over subs, rather than full range. I recently did a Theo, putting the CD15SP's on the floor. ( Only because I'd forgotten the tripods :doh: :o :o ) You would not believe how much bass I got from a single 15" cab! :eek:

Tops, plastic, full range wood. Simple.


OK Back on topic, from a position of experience (and budget perspective) ;)
I have, for my last half dozen gigs, been running a DA1300 through AC Euro ACP112's, which are to all intents & purposes the same as class D. Adding a pair of 15" subs as and when necessary, I, and the clients, been very happy
with the overall performance.

The ACP 115 is also a good choice and won't break the bank.

With what may be regarded as uprated drivers, if what I've seen on here is accurate.

[Kernow]

With what may be regarded as uprated drivers, if what I've seen on here is accurate.

Bless You, Your Eminence ;)

:D :D

[Alex - Cream Ents]

Suggestions

Passive System - often favoured in installs as easier to protect / ventilate amps etc:

QSC Amps for a mid-range budget, solid - reliable and don't sound too shabby either.

Speakers (an example):

FBT Verve 12 (12" & 1") Bass Mid Hi
FBT Verve 15S (15") Sub
(FBT comes from Proel)

Or if thats too much deniro....The Brooke stuff from Impact isnt too bad...Equivalent Spec cabs available. Avoid amps like plague mind you.

Get a decent processor (DBX Driverack etc if the budget will stretch) at very least a competent Xover / Graphic EQ and limiter to ensure nothing will be overdriven.

-----

Active system - Quicker / Simpler to install, but has the potential to be meddled with a lot easier...

Alto PS4 Tops
Alto SR500SA Sub

The dB stuff isnt bad for the money, but with the Mackie MK II's being cheap enough they are worth a look.
Wouldn't use Warrior Amps / Class D stuff for an installation personally, don't think its ideal for the rigours of the average install.

As for Luminar installs they use CVA (and have done for over 10 years) who put their own boxes in which are copies of EV cabs. They occasionally use the Community stuff for peripherals (which are awful). Before CVA it was Ivor Green who used twin and earth for speaker cable. Which is bad.

No matter how well limited a system is if a DJ persistently redlines the mixer producing a square wave speakers will blow. If you can afford it (not for this job I'd imagine) a Formula Sound AVC2 is a hard limiter that lowers the volume untill the DJ backs it off - then it gets louder again. Djs hate them though...

[Bouncy Dancefloor]

Get a decent processor (DBX Driverack etc if the budget will stretch)

if going down this option, only get the latest version as the older ones are known for taking out your horns if the power is switched off before the amps (if electricity trips etc, it gets very expensive)

[Cowlinn]

Sorry, just to stick my nose in where its probably not wanted, i use prosound fairly often..actually sound pretty good for the price. Comparable to peavy. i would most definately not put prosound in the same leuge as Sk**ec.