Pub Install

[milo]

Hi guys,

After a bit of a hand with the sound installation for my new bar!!! I’m basically going to be ding kids discos in the basement and I have a nice little bar on the ground floor for the adults to chill out in. I need a couple of smallish wall mounted speakers in the basement (size is about 8m x 8m) loud enough to do a good disco, but not loud enough to burst ear drums, and I need a few speakers in the bar area (also 8m x 8mish) to provide background music.

I want both the upstairs and downstairs to by playing the same music, but obviously a lot quieter upstairs, with just one amp (situated upstairs behind the bar upstairs) and the flexibility to plug the laptop in on either floor. I also want to be able to turn off downstairs when not in use and just play background upstairs.

I’ve had three companies to quote and they range from £500.00 to £2,000.00 all saying different things. The main factor for me is price as this is a trial business that may not be around for ever.

One company says it should be run off a 100v line, another says I can feed two speakers down stairs from one output on the amp and the ones upstairs from the other (though I’m scared the volume might get adjusted and blow the upstairs speakers) and the other company says I can do it via a normal mixer and put some tape across the control to stop it getting knocked?

Can anyone recommend all the components I need, where to buy from (keeping cost down) and how to wire up?

Thanks.

Milo.

[501damian501]

to plug a laptop in on either floor you would require 2 amps to be honest, i would just have seperate systems installed, make life easyer, instead of having wires going all over the shot.

a couple of sets of 12inch tops might just do the job.

some c mark ampilfiers to keep costs down and plus their great ampilfiers

take alook at class d for speakers i recommend the cd12p for this job then add some subs at a later date if it kicks off.

c mark ampilfiers : http://www.djkit.co.uk/category.php?id=40&manufacturer=8

maybe some sets of these badboys : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PAIR-35mm-PA-SPEAKER-DISCO-NIGHTCLUB-PUB-WALL-BRACKETS_W0QQitemZ320340650877QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_ConsumerElectronics_EquipmentStands_SM?hash=item 320340650877&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318

am sure other people can help more, so let everyone else dive in, before you spend!

but saying of the upstairs bar, i,d rather have various sets of smaller speakers, then just some massive ones mounted on the walls, to spread the music more, so it doesnt look out of place.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Hi guys,

After a bit of a hand with the sound installation for my new bar!!! I’m basically going to be ding kids discos in the basement and I have a nice little bar on the ground floor for the adults to chill out in. I need a couple of smallish wall mounted speakers in the basement (size is about 8m x 8m) loud enough to do a good disco, but not loud enough to burst ear drums, and I need a few speakers in the bar area (also 8m x 8mish) to provide background music.

I want both the upstairs and downstairs to by playing the same music, but obviously a lot quieter upstairs, with just one amp (situated upstairs behind the bar upstairs) and the flexibility to plug the laptop in on either floor. I also want to be able to turn off downstairs when not in use and just play background upstairs.

I’ve had three companies to quote and they range from £500.00 to £2,000.00 all saying different things. The main factor for me is price as this is a trial business that may not be around for ever.

One company says it should be run off a 100v line, another says I can feed two speakers down stairs from one output on the amp and the ones upstairs from the other (though I’m scared the volume might get adjusted and blow the upstairs speakers) and the other company says I can do it via a normal mixer and put some tape across the control to stop it getting knocked?

Can anyone recommend all the components I need, where to buy from (keeping cost down) and how to wire up?

Thanks.

Milo.

I have an idea for the upstairs room, that involves very little cost and will work dependant on walls and how far apart your rooms are.

I recently bought these (http://www.htfr.com/more-info/MR230080) and they are more than loud enough for background music. No cables to worry about - you just need to plug one of the speakers into the mains and connect the other one to it. They have their own wall mounts too.

This all depends on whether wireless signals will go round the building of course, but if it works, it will leave more budget to get a better install in the basement.

[Vectis]

Why not just go with active speakers on both floors fed from the master and booth outputs of a suitably-equipped mixer? Then a long input lead from whichever room isn't near the mixer to wherever it is?

So, short lead from laptop to mixer Ch 1, speaker set 1 connected to mixer master and speaker set 2 connected to mixer booth. 2 separate volume controls for the same throughput.

Long lead from other room to mixer Ch 2, so you can use laptop in the other room. Use windoze's own volume control to make small adjustments on the fly without needing to whizz upstairs to the mixer!

[milo]

I’m afraid my tech knowledge only extends to a £500.00 all in Maplin mobile disco I bought to do some kids Christmas parties.

What sort of power output should I be looking at for the speakers and amp? Does the power get split between the speakers? Will it blow my little bar speakers? Etc etc.

Can you give me a little list with recommendations i.e.

2 x 300W 12inch speakers – recommend Mickey Mouse inc.
4 x 50 W 6 inch speakers for bar – recommend Donald Duck inc.
1 x 800W amp with four speaker outputs (or two out puts with mixer?) – recommend Pluto inc.
1 x mixer to control volume on each floor – recommend Mini Mouse inc.

There seems to be a Disney theme here…. Once I have the right components I don’t know how to wire them? Assuming I just run the input from the bar upstairs into one amp, how do I power say 6 speakers if 2 of them are 300w and the other 4 are only 50w? Presumably the two downstairs would have the twisty connector thing and the four up stairs would have a red and black wire each?

[501damian501]

what about a produb

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Last warning Damian.

If you persist in trying to wind people up and post stupid things, you will be gone from here by the end of the day.

[501damian501]

you take the laptop use a 3.5mm to phono and plug into channels 1 input on the mixer

from the mixers master output, you plug into your ampilifier

from the ampilfier you plug the speakers.

thats a passive setup

for a active setup, you plug the laptop into the mixer as stated, but then you use 3 pin xlrs to plug from the mixer directly into the speakers, because active speakers already have an inbuild ampilfier, i hope this clears things up a little

[milo]

So these active speakers have an in-build amplifier and kind of daisy chain together?

Laptop to mixer, mixer channel one to one active speaker downstairs and mixer channel two to another small active speaker upstairs then both active speakers daisy chain to power their partners? I take it these active speakers have a red and white connector rather than a twisty thing?

That sounds good and cheap! On a budget of say £350 -£500 what would you recommend I go for? Assuming I’ve understood correctly?

[501damian501]

So these active speakers have an in-build amplifier and kind of daisy chain together?

Laptop to mixer, mixer channel one to one active speaker downstairs and mixer channel two to another small active speaker upstairs then both active speakers daisy chain to power their partners? I take it these active speakers have a red and white connector rather than a twisty thing?

That sounds good and cheap! On a budget of say £350 -£500 what would you recommend I go for? Assuming I’ve understood correctly?

it doesnt work like that mate, if wanted to do what you said just then, you would need to be passive, send channel 1 of the ampilfier down stairs and use channel 2 of the ampilfier up stairs, but that would require a wire being ran upstairs.

[milo]

Produb is sorted as is PRS, premises licence for dancing, music, alcohol, entertainment, personal licence for sale of alcohol, commercial combined insurance, CRB checks, hygiene certs, fire regs, disabled access and everything else I need – Back to the point though ……. Thanks to everyone so far, I think it probably makes sense to do the active speaker thing, just need recommendations for good quality (cheap) speakers.

[501damian501]

Produb is sorted as is PRS, premises licence for dancing, music, alcohol, entertainment, personal licence for sale of alcohol, commercial combined insurance, CRB checks, hygiene certs, fire regs, disabled access and everything else I need – Back to the point though ……. Thanks to everyone so far, I think it probably makes sense to do the active speaker thing, just need recommendations for good quality (cheap) speakers.

thats the thing you wont get cheap decent active speakers :D


heres a little plan

just to get the mixer and laptop upstairs, just use an wireless phono to phono thing.

personally i think the upstairs bar should have a more user friendly setup, no an in your face dj set up.

[Tom]

As it's an install I would say go for a passive but that's just my opinion.

How about going for a 4 channel output amp. As its kids, I don't think you would need subs.


On 4 channel amps you get a control dial for each channel so you can have the speakers downstairs turns up and have the speakers upstairs turned down.

You only need 2 channels going in to the amp, left and right. Saves having more amps and equipment about the place.

If you need to save space, could at even look at a small rack mount mixer. I think you can get 2U/3U mixers. Something like this would be great for you imo. :)

[milo]

OK – so in the back of my big 1800w amp I have three outputs, left, right and bridged (whatever that is). I take it you mean run what would usually be my left speaker to downstairs and connect another speaker to it in a daisy chain fashion, then take what would usually be my right speaker to power upstairs and again daisy chain another speaker from that?

This way the speakers don’t have to be active, but I would blow my little speakers if the power gets turned up too high on channel two?

[milo]

Can I wire say six ceiling speakers into one channel on the amp?

[501damian501]

OK – so in the back of my big 1800w amp I have three outputs, left, right and bridged (whatever that is). I take it you mean run what would usually be my left speaker to downstairs and connect another speaker to it in a daisy chain fashion, then take what would usually be my right speaker to power upstairs and again daisy chain another speaker from that?

This way the speakers don’t have to be active, but I would blow my little speakers if the power gets turned up too high on channel two?

as the ohms go lower the wattage gets higher, i would just use an dj style system downstairs, and use a more basic system upstairs mate, keep them seperate.

bridged is basicly both channels together, you dont need to use this.

[501damian501]

them small speakers you have wont work to well with that amp you have, theirfore i would go out and buy a small ampilfier for upstairs...

[DJ James Lake]

Your ideal install would be a dj mixer placed where it will get used most. The crucial part is a zone mixer like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CLOUD-CX133-TWO-ZONE-RACK-MOUNT-MIXER-1U_W0QQitemZ360129318237QQihZ023QQcategoryZ4785QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
so that you can preset levels for seperate areas and no matter how much the dj mixer gets turns up you wont blow speakers as this can be placed anywhere out of reach. Then 2 amps one for upstairs one for downstairs and then the speakers in both areas.

I would look at second hand to be honest as the stuff can be picked up so cheap now all easily done for well under £500

[milo]

Zone mixer! Now we’re talking…. So the laptop goes to an amp, which goes to a zone mixer and the speakers from each zone plug into that?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No-one is listening to my low cost very viable idea then?

[ppentertainments]

No-one is listening to my low cost very viable idea then?

I am Darren, don't worry :D :D
Was going to ask if you think it would be suitable for my need ? I have a number of venues who put the buffet in a separate room often great distance from the main room. Would the speaker system be ok to provide background music and announcements in the buffet room. The main reason for this is the B&G often have the first dance after the buffet and normally I have to get someone to run through to the buffet room to tell everyone.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I am Darren, don't worry :D :D
Was going to ask if you think it would be suitable for my need ? I have a number of venues who put the buffet in a separate room often great distance from the main room. Would the speaker system be ok to provide background music and announcements in the buffet room. The main reason for this is the B&G often have the first dance after the buffet and normally I have to get someone to run through to the buffet room to tell everyone.

That is the very reason I bought mine, but you'll have to check what the distance is. Even if you bought them and they didn't go that far, they are cheap enough to utilise for other things, like monitors etc.

[ppentertainments]

That is the very reason I bought mine, but you'll have to check what the distance is. Even if you bought them and they didn't go that far, they are cheap enough to utilise for other things, like monitors etc.

Or the smoking shelter :D :D
Sold !!!

[milo]

What about a 2 zone mixer/amplifier like this: http://www.djsoundkit.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=P650U

Can I just buy one of these and some speakers?

What should I be looking for speaker wise? Any ideas?

[501damian501]

for upstairs, buy 2 sets of what darren has pointed out, jbl are good quality and them speakers would be good for just background music upstairs, then downstairs get an ampilifer, class d speakers, brackets and stuff, thats thet best way i reckon to be honest.

[milo]

Sorry – I was listening, the JBL wireless ones could be an option for the upstairs bar. Do you think two of them will be powerful/loud enough for a room with say 30 people in it?

Can anyone explain to me how these zone mixer amps work? Does channel 1-6 mean speaker 1-6?

[milo]

Hi Damian - Thanks for PM (what's your number though)?

The problem seems to be playing the same music on both floors or are you saying I can have the laptop upstairs going to a mixer with channel 1 for top floor and channel 2 for downstairs via amp? By jove I think I understand now!!!

[milo]

No hang on! That’s not right….. Channel one and channel two on the mixer are inputs?

[501damian501]

Hi Damian - Thanks for PM (what's your number though)?

The problem seems to be playing the same music on both floors or are you saying I can have the laptop upstairs going to a mixer with channel 1 for top floor and channel 2 for downstairs via amp? By jove I think I understand now!!!

this is what am trying to grasp, do you want the same music throughout both floors, or different... :D

[milo]

The same

[501damian501]

The same

its going to be quite hard to do this by one amp, due to the size of the amp needed for downstairs and a smaller one needed upstairs... you get it now, the phone is now free, the number in pm.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

its going to be quite hard to do this by one amp, due to the size of the amp needed for downstairs and a smaller one needed upstairs...

You don't need an amp upstairs if you use the wireless speakers and for background music for 30 people, they'll be fine. You need a mixer downstairs with a booth output as well as main output, so you can have 2 separate outputs. The JBLs have a remote control, so you just set them to a maximuum on the mixer and amp downstairs and then turn them down with the remote.

I can't believe anyone is going to phone Damian for technical help...:sj:

[milo]

Thanks for everyone’s help on this, in the end I bought:

4 x JBL One Speakers
2 x Active db Technologies Opera Live 405 Speakers
1 x Twin CD Numark Mixer CDN25+G
1 x Behringer Eurorack UB1202FX Mixer
1 x DOD SR831QXLR Graphic Equaliser
2 x Audio-Technica wireless mics
1 x Technics SU-V460 Amp

Managed to get the lot including all wires and flightcases etc for £600.00 and it was easy to install myself.

The amp powers the four JBLs in the bar and then connects to the control room out socket on the mixer.

The mixer has four inputs for both CD decks, laptop and MP3 player , then the main output goes downstairs to the two active speakers that power themselves.

The mics have a really good range and work throughout the building (even when receiver is behind bar) and the amp has six inputs so I have hooked up the TV, Playstation and Wii too!

Sounds great!

[Babybob]

Well done Milo, it looks as if you spent a lot of time and effort in trying to make this new venture a success....good luck for the future. :beer1:

[Excalibur]

Well done Milo, your biggest problem appears to have been choosing which of the excellent solutions to go with.

Out of interest, which models of AT mics do you have? Liberator? :confused:

[DJMaxG]

Hi,
I would firstly have to reccomend Pro Audio only, don't start using Hifi speakers, unless it is small.

I would reccomend 12" Inch Speakers (optional sub woofer)

If you got Active speakers, no worrying about amps etc.

------------------------------------------

If you want to run a passive system, then you would need to have 2 seperate amps (for proper stereo sound) for the volumes to differ.

-----------------------------------------

Having an Active system, each speaker can be set to a different volume.

Also, when you say "plug the laptop in", presumably you have some equipment as well like a Mixer and decks.

You may need to hardwire an aux input on each floor.
Loads of ways of doing it.


Thanks for everyone’s help on this, in the end I bought:

4 x JBL One Speakers
2 x Active db Technologies Opera Live 405 Speakers
1 x Twin CD Numark Mixer CDN25+G
1 x Behringer Eurorack UB1202FX Mixer
1 x DOD SR831QXLR Graphic Equaliser
2 x Audio-Technica wireless mics
1 x Technics SU-V460 Amp

Managed to get the lot including all wires and flightcases etc for £600.00 and it was easy to install myself.

The amp powers the four JBLs in the bar and then connects to the control room out socket on the mixer.

The mixer has four inputs for both CD decks, laptop and MP3 player , then the main output goes downstairs to the two active speakers that power themselves.

The mics have a really good range and work throughout the building (even when receiver is behind bar) and the amp has six inputs so I have hooked up the TV, Playstation and Wii too!

Sounds great!

Guess I was too late in answering the question!
Good luck anyway

So you got active in the end, and 2 seperate systems, as I said.


You don't need an amp upstairs if you use the wireless speakers and for background music for 30 people, they'll be fine. You need a mixer downstairs with a booth output as well as main output, so you can have 2 separate outputs. The JBLs have a remote control, so you just set them to a maximuum on the mixer and amp downstairs and then turn them down with the remote.

I can't believe anyone is going to phone Damian for technical help...:sj:


Booth Output - I didnt think of that! However, there is no VU display

I wouldn't turn the mixer right up, regardless of whether it is controlled from, as it can still send out a distorted signal.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Hello?

Max - you need to read the threads you are answering. This one has been sorted and resolved.

[Corabar Steve]

Also needs to learn how to use the multi quote button ("+)

Why do I think somebody is just trying to increase their post count.

Big Brother is watching.