Ampilifer Controversy...

[501damian501]

Hello Peeps... Another one of the damian related threads :D , now as we all know we have a nice mixture of people on here, young and old ETC plus new members...

I hope this dont turn into i have a better ampilfier than you or go for active speakers debate...

What to look for in an ampilifer to suit best with your speakers...

1) an RMS rating higher than your speakers, so you can run the ampilfier around half way or just over half, so you dont run it flat out at maximum.

2) buy an ampilfier with a lower RMS rating than your speakers, just incase the ampilfier clips so it doesnt blow the speakers.

ETC

cheers damian

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Damien, hasnt this been done to death and been decided that the camps are split and you will never get a definative answer?

[501damian501]

Damien, hasnt this been done to death and been decided that the camps are split and you will never get a definative answer?

yes i know, but i have been thinking while in bed last night, am sure tony scott can give a more clear answer to this, if you clip an ampilifer the output is something like 1.6times more the output or something like that...

so come on tony wheres your 2pence worth :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Dynamic Entertainment]

If this is what you think about whilst in bed you need to get out more :D

[ppentertainments]

If this is what you think about whilst in bed you need to get out more :D

That's what he gets for working with Tony :D :D

For whats its worth Damian, the camps are split but personally, If it is only myself using the system I use an amp larger than speakers, if it is an install that I put in and hire to others to use I use slightly bigger speakers than amp.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but works for me.

[501damian501]

That's what he gets for working with Tony :D :D

For whats its worth Damian, the camps are split but personally, If it is only myself using the system I use an amp larger than speakers, if it is an install that I put in and hire to others to use I use slightly bigger speakers than amp.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but works for me.

yeah i see your point of this, because you know you wont be doing silly things to get the ampilifer to clip ect ect, but then agian have you noticed any change in temperature between the 2 setups ?

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Im a similar school of though Chris. Use a bigger amp for myself as i know im responsible enough not to blow the speakers. With installs, expect everyone using it to be a numpty :D

[Tom]

Running a clip signal to a pair of speakers will do more damage than running the full rms input to the speakers. You just need to monitor the output on the mixer.

Lets say you want to run the full rms going in to the speakers, say, 300 watts rms for a full range cab (no need for ohms for this example). You would want the maximum input for each channel to be 0db and also the same for the the output of the mixer. Maximum of 0db. You then get an amp that is about 2 times the power of the speaker (for this example) so lets say 600 watts per channel.

Running the amp at half volume will be around the 300 but not spot on.

Please note that I am not 100% on this so don't quote me, still trying learning and trying to work it out. Please do not try this at home unless you are qualified in electrics! I think 300 watts is 23 volts. So I think that if you get a miltimeter, you could then measure how many volts are flowing through the speaker leads while you turn the amp up.



Just my 2p.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

unless you are qualified in electrics!

Just put out a board saying "NIGEL WERE HERE!!!!:D :D :D

[501damian501]

Running a clip signal to a pair of speakers will do more damage than running the full rms input to the speakers. You just need to monitor the output on the mixer.

Lets say you want to run the full rms going in to the speakers, say, 300 watts rms for a full range cab (no need for ohms for this example). You would want the maximum input for each channel to be 0db and also the same for the the output of the mixer. Maximum of 0db. You then get an amp that is about 2 times the power of the speaker (for this example) so lets say 600 watts per channel.

Running the amp at half volume will be around the 300 but not spot on.

Please note that I am not 100% on this so don't quote me, still trying learning and trying to work it out. Please do not try this at home unless you are qualified in electrics! I think 300 watts is 23 volts. So I think that if you get a miltimeter, you could then measure how many volts are flowing through the speaker leads while you turn the amp up.



Just my 2p.

you scared of trying it tom :D , just put the multimeter on a much higher setting of course still the volts setting, but sumthing like 1,000volts, just so you dont blow your hand off :D , but then agian, dont try it unless your able to do so, Ive noticed just recently tom you seem to be asking some technical questions, you considering building ampilfiers or a career change ect ect

[Tom]

you scared of trying it tom :D , just put the multimeter on a much higher setting of course still the volts setting, but sumthing like 1,000volts, just so you dont blow your hand off :D , but then agian, dont try it unless your able to do so, Ive noticed just recently tom you seem to be asking some technical questions, you considering building ampilfiers or a career change ect ect

I am not scared of trying anything. More to the point, I am not that stupid to muck about with electrics.

I am training to be a qualified electrician. So I would rather not touch anything untill I know what to do, and have a piece of paper to prove that I am able to do such a thing.

Don't really fancy building amps. That's more electronics. I'm interested in designing and building small, compact but loud speakers though. Doing it my way, not Nigels way (no offence :)). lol.

Going to build my first one in the next few months. Still sim'ing and always trying to find a better driver. lol

Anyway.

[501damian501]

so why not do a joinery course ?

[Tom]

so why not do a joinery course ?

Because I am more interested in electrics, not joinery. Hence why I have forked out £8000 for the course. lol


Anyway.

[501damian501]

but what has building speakers got to do with electrics, other than acouple of "basic" wires ect.

[discomobiledj]

but what has building speakers got to do with electrics, other than acouple of "basic" wires ect.

Someone's on the wind up!

[501damian501]

Someone's on the wind up!

i was just asking, thats all, no offenise tom, mod/admin just remove the post, lets get back on topic...

[spin mobile disco]

I run an amp 2/3 more power than the rms rating for my speakers. This allows for peaks in the signal without risking the speakers. The peak level for my speakers is double that figure again so hopefully no risk to the system. It also means do not have to stress the system at any point to get volume.
I believe the power ratings are as follows.

mackie speakers 350watts rms @ 8 ohms
Amplifier powering at 550 watts rms @ 8 ohms per channel.

This is only used for the top and midrange as all the bass is handled by my DB powered sub.
I have provided a good level sound for parties of just over 400 people with this system and it still sounds good at low volumes as well. I know a few of the others on the forum have heard my system and agree it is more than capable for most mobile situations.
But I have a twin 18 powered sub as well just incase although have never needed it yet.

[nigelwright7557]

Just put out a board saying "NIGEL WERE HERE!!!!:D :D :D

I'm saying nothing !
Been done to death.

[nigelwright7557]

I am not scared of trying anything. More to the point, I am not that stupid to muck about with electrics.
.

Power amps arent too bad except the mains transformer side is dangerous.

The fun starts with valves ! I have had my heart restarted a few times !

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I'm saying nothing !
Been done to death.

Yep, i think that why the other people in the know havn't responded yet. :D

Damien, whats your stance on your own question then?

[Penfold42]

I'm saying nothing !
Been done to death.


Power amps arent too bad except the mains transformer side is dangerous.

The fun starts with valves ! I have had my heart restarted a few times !

I thought you said nothing.....:p

[Tom]

Power amps arent too bad except the mains transformer side is dangerous.

The fun starts with valves ! I have had my heart restarted a few times !

Still, I have no interest in building or designing power amps, with out without valves. :)

Spin Mobile Disco - Good example.

[nigelwright7557]

Still, I have no interest in building or designing power amps, with out without valves. :)

Spin Mobile Disco - Good example.

Unless you have at least a basic working knowledge of electronics then I would seriously suggest not getting involved.

Dont even take the lid off to look.
Valve amps store lethal voltages even when swicthed off !! :eek:
So do some of the larger bipolar amps.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Unless you have at least a basic working knowledge of electronics then I would seriously suggest not getting involved.



Er, he's not...


Still, I have no interest in building or designing power amps, with out without valves. :)

[501damian501]

I run an amp 2/3 more power than the rms rating for my speakers. This allows for peaks in the signal without risking the speakers. The peak level for my speakers is double that figure again so hopefully no risk to the system. It also means do not have to stress the system at any point to get volume.
I believe the power ratings are as follows.

mackie speakers 350watts rms @ 8 ohms
Amplifier powering at 550 watts rms @ 8 ohms per channel.

This is only used for the top and midrange as all the bass is handled by my DB powered sub.
I have provided a good level sound for parties of just over 400 people with this system and it still sounds good at low volumes as well. I know a few of the others on the forum have heard my system and agree it is more than capable for most mobile situations.
But I have a twin 18 powered sub as well just incase although have never needed it yet.

good stuff, cheers for the information.

[sleah]

I'm a strong believer in like for like (exact matching).

I.E. My speakers are 4ohm 500Wrms per side, powered by an amp that will drive 500Wrms into 4ohm per side.
The logic is that I can get best power out of the speakers without serious risk of blowing them providing the amp stays out of clipping.:D

I always avoid using an amp more powerful than the speakers because the first indication that you may be over driving the speakers is probably too late, and there's no visual indication that you're getting close.:eek:

I know that I can safely see the odd flicker of the amp clip light and know no harm is done if I peg back a little. Like an early warning sign.:)

The VU leds on a mixer are totally irrelevent. Unless you turn the gain FULL UP on the amps, i.e. no attenuation, AND the VU meters are fully calibrated and you know exactly what they are indicating, not to mention are they showing peak or average........ then they are meaningless.

All I know is that they tell me wether or not I'm thrashing the mixer.
My 3G mixer will happily peak into red no problem:), my Numark sound like the utter piece of cak that it is when it just touches red:(
That's all mixer VU's are good for, nothing to do with what's coming out FOH.

When I use amp X, it will clip when the mixer just hits red, when I use amp Y it will clip when the mixer is barely half way up it's VU..... there's good reason for this, amp Y has a much more sensitive input than amp X, which proves the mixer VU bares little relation to actual output from the speakers.

[djdarren]

the best option would be to go with an amp that is 15 - 30% higher in rms rating... turn the amp on full and use your mixer to limit the volume..

this way you are not going to clip the amp nor send a dirty distorted signal from the mixer to the amp.