How patient should I be?

[Jonathan Ford]

Or rather, if you were in my shoes, how patient would you be?

I have pretty much all of my eggs in one basket. I have a residency with a local hotel, part of a small boutique hotel group, and work for them pretty much every weekend throughout the summer and all of the Xmas stuff. I am in a pretty privileged position, in that I don't really have to worry about finding work - I'm happy with the work I get from them, and anything else that comes my way I regard as a bonus.

Trouble is, the hotel still haven't paid me for December 2008. Some of the dates on the invoice are coming up to 90 days old...a quarter of a year! It's getting to the stage that I'm considering legal action, but at the same time don't want to destroy my business.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Starlight]

I would always expect cash upfront, at least seven (7) days before the show.

Neil.

[rob1963]

I am in a pretty privileged position, in that I don't really have to worry about finding work - I'm happy with the work I get from them, and anything else that comes my way I regard as a bonus.


I don't see having all your work at the same hotel as privileged at all.

I think it's very risky, as if they replace you with someone else who's cheaper (more likely than ever in the current climate) then you're stuffed.


Trouble is, the hotel still haven't paid me for December 2008. Some of the dates on the invoice are coming up to 90 days old...a quarter of a year! It's getting to the stage that I'm considering legal action, but at the same time don't want to destroy my business.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

The only thing to do is to talk to them, explain the situation, lay it on a bit thick about how it's having a serious effect on your finances & ask when they will be paying you.

Your next move depends entirely on their response.

[Javlingames]

I would always expect cash upfront, at least seven (7) days before the show.

Neil.

That doesnt really help him does it.

Have you spoken to the hotel regarding this?

[andyw]

have you phoned and spoken with them,or sent them another invoice,we are in a similar position where are best hotel normally pays within 7 days still haven't paid for nye,i phoned and asked for payment and they apologised and are sending payment on (hopefully)
before starting legal proceedings make sure you exhaust all other avenues.

[Tom]

I dont know about the hotel you are working but some places like to pay a lot later.

My day job for example, will buy loads of stock in but wont pay anything for 2 months or there abouts.

Did you speak to the hotel and payment and when you would get it???

[Jonathan Ford]

I don't see having all your work at the same hotel as privileged at all.

I think it's very risky, as if they replace you with someone else who's cheaper (more likely than ever in the current climate) then you're stuffed.



The only thing to do is to talk to them, explain the situation, lay it on a bit thick about how it's having a serious effect on your finances & ask when they will be paying you.

Your next move depends entirely on their response.

Well, it's privileged in that I know where work is coming from. I have an excellent relationship with the hotel team of around 10 years standing, and reckon it's fairly bullet proof, but I very much accept your point.

I've spoken to the hotel GM and the purchase ledger manager at length. The GM is as frustrated as me, and has copied me into emails he has sent to head office requesting payment. The purhcase ledger guy just says he'll pay me when he can, and can't elaborate.


I would always expect cash upfront, at least seven (7) days before the show.

Neil.

With most bookings at the venue, the hotel simply refer me to their client, and I ask for cash on the night - no pay no play. In this case, as it's joiner parties for twenty nights over Xmas, I have to invoice them.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Is this a chain of Hotels, out of interest?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I was going to ask the same thing.
Do you have late payment charges in your Terms & Conditions?

To be totally honest with you, they are playing you mate. They aren't taking you seriously. They know that you get a lot of work from them and (not sure if you have made it obvious to them in the past) also know that you will have a lot to lose if they are aware that "all your eggs are in one basket" as such. Sometimes you have to be brutal. You've done the work and are owed the money. I know that's obvious so my apologies but come on...What would they do if the staff were waiting for their money? They wouldn't be able to run a hotel.

Look at this way too.... Whether they are a big chain or an independent, there may be a serious reason as to why they haven't paid you as yet. Don't let it go on any longer because if there is a problem and they go under or go under new management etc, you could lose the lot.

I would arrange a meeting with them asap and tell them how it is. We're probably talking a lot of money here and at this moment in time you could probably do with it. Don't think about what MIGHT happen if you push it because you have earnt that money...worry about that once you have it. If you lose out on the residency then it's their loss aswell as yours but at least you'll have what you're owed and you can start to source work from elsewhere.

Lastly, IF you don't have late payment charges in your Terms and Conditions and you carry on supplying them after you get your money, make sure they are in there from then on. IF they are there now and are slowly but surely building up...well, you may be able to use them as a tool to rush them and come up with some kind of deal. Whether that means waiving them or discounting them?

[SilverlineDiscos]

One thing to also consider, is that IF you DO decide to take legal action, most of the time it isn't worth the hassle as it may cost you more to cover the legal costs in the first place.

Have you tried calling the Purchase Ledger if possible? Speak with him directly or perhaps a complaints department?

Another possibility is that if the hotel require another disco, tell them they can't have another until payment is received.

Just my two cents...

[Jonathan Ford]

Is this a chain of Hotels, out of interest?

It's a small chain of four hotels in the East Midlands.


To be totally honest with you, they are playing you mate.

Yeah, I know they're playing me...I'm just not sure how much to take.


Look at this way too.... Whether they are a big chain or an independent, there may be a serious reason as to why they haven't paid you as yet. Don't let it go on any longer because if there is a problem and they go under or go under new management etc, you could lose the lot.

This is what worries me. The purchase ledger guy at head office told me this afternoon that he hasn't paid ANYONE for the last three weeks, and that all payments have to be authorised by the MD. Worrying.

I know it's my own fault, but I don't use Terms and Conditions. I've never needed them, until now, due to the nature of my business. I've worked pretty much exclusively at this one venue for years. I was General Manager there in 1996, and bought my business from the guy who was my resident DJ when I was GM at the hotel.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I hate to say it but without those Terms & Conditions, IF they really wanted to they could say that the invoice doesn't exist and the work didn't happen.

You've said that it's your own fault so I, for one am not going to go on about that but you know already that there will probably be a fair few replies to that coming up.

Best of luck with it all. I know it's stressful but it's also a learning curve.

[rob1963]

I've spoken to the hotel GM and the purchase ledger manager at length. The GM is as frustrated as me, and has copied me into emails he has sent to head office requesting payment. The purhcase ledger guy just says he'll pay me when he can, and can't elaborate.


Presumably they are paying the hotel staff, in which case there's no reason why they can't pay YOU.

If I was you, I'd politely let them know that you'll reluctantly seek legal advice if you don't receive payment within 7 or 14 days.

After that, I'd pay a solicitor to send a letter requesting payment within 7 or 14 days. Hopefully that will be enough to get them to finally pay you.

[yourdj]

Or rather, if you were in my shoes, how patient would you be?

I have pretty much all of my eggs in one basket. I have a residency with a local hotel, part of a small boutique hotel group, and work for them pretty much every weekend throughout the summer and all of the Xmas stuff. I am in a pretty privileged position, in that I don't really have to worry about finding work - I'm happy with the work I get from them, and anything else that comes my way I regard as a bonus.

Trouble is, the hotel still haven't paid me for December 2008. Some of the dates on the invoice are coming up to 90 days old...a quarter of a year! It's getting to the stage that I'm considering legal action, but at the same time don't want to destroy my business.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Had the same problem with a well know chain in December. only got paid this week (£1400).

- Write a letter firstly asking for payment with invoice
- write another statement and letter two weeks later
- write another one demanding money week after
- threaten court action and interest on top for each week unpaid week after.
- go to small claims with proof of the work you undertook.

- back each letter up with recorded phone call.

if not a chain go straight to owner.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Depending on the hotel but if you go legal i would consider the size of the chain for example they are likely to have a pretty decent legal team so depends as well on how watertight your t&c's are.

Have you tried finding out who provides discos for the other hotels in the chain? see if they have had the same proplem?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

To be totally honest with you, they are playing you mate. They aren't taking you seriously.

I disagree Gary. Lots of Hotels and businesses still do this even though they have signed the contract and T&Cs. There are rules and regs for small businesses being paid, but do you really think the big companies play by the rules?

I know this from first hand experience and have a client at the moment who is well overdue, so I find myself in a similar situation in some ways.

[rob1963]

I disagree Gary. Lots of Hotels and businesses still do this even though they have signed the contract and T&Cs. There are rules and regs for small businesses being paid, but do you really think the big companies play by the rules?

I know this from first hand experience and have a client at the moment who is well overdue, so I find myself in a similar situation in some ways.

I guess that's the disadvantage of having big clients who you do lots of work for.

All my clients are one-offs (apart from a few I've worked for once before), and the advantage of this is that the latest I've been paid for a gig is on arrival at the venue.

If all my clients owed me money for weeks or even months after a gig, I'd get in a terrible mess...and to be honest, I really wouldn't want the hassle.

[nigelwright7557]

One thing to also consider, is that IF you DO decide to take legal action,.

You will never work there again....

[Bouncy Dancefloor]

a very worrying sign if noones been paid for 3 weeks

[andyw]

we always try not to bite the hand that feeds us,in our circumstances we done 8 parties in december for the client 7 were paid on the night and 1 is still owing.this has happened once before and in the end it took 3 months and 2 reminders(no threats of legal action just patience)and we still get a lot of work from them.if you want to continue playing there you must consider your actions carefully.how desperate are you for the money right now,how concerned are you that you won't get paid at all.what full back plan have you in place if you do lose this place.it's a waste of time staying there if you won't get paid but if it is just late,can you live with that for the time being

[ppentertainments]

I know this is probably unusual but the 2 venues I done the majority of Christmas nights for paid me in advance (1st December).

My reasoning for requesting this is that their own T&C for the parties stated that a £10 deposit per person was required with the remaining balance paid no later than 1st December. I requested a 20% deposit with remaining balance by 1st December which they agreed to.

I know that dealing with companies does often result in invoicing for the fee and often waiting 28 days or longer. There are a few corporate gigs I do where this is the case, but for a block booking ie Christmas parties I do try and insist on payment in advance.

[Danieleastwood.com]

I had the same situation 2 years ago with a well known brand of hotel, following a last minute New Years Eve booking.

I went through all the appropriate channels. Letter, Repeat Invoicing, Phoning and recording phonecalls.

In the end, I took to visiting the hotel day after day, and badgering the Bimbo who lied to me in the first place about being paid on the night. It's funny how once you start making it awkward and making a slight fuss in front of customers, it has a tendancy to do the trick (I have to clarify that this was a LAST RESORT tactic).

I did a lot of homework on this and found out some interesting points such as, A large company has to hold a Cash reserve for whatever situation arises. So the garbage they feed you about the cheque being in the post that you will come accross, can be blown out of the water with that.

Of course, I would start making some moves to promoting yourself elsewhere in case the persuing of your money loses you the 'good will' with them.

I hope it works out for you.

The wierd thing is... the bigger the company, the later and later the money takes to arrive.

[PropellerHeadCase]

I would always expect cash upfront, at least seven (7) days before the show.

It's a corporate, that's not how corporates work, it should be pay on invoice by 20th or end of month following or whatever, but with no Ts & Cs...



Depending on the hotel but if you go legal i would consider the size of the chain for example they are likely to have a pretty decent legal team so depends as well on how watertight your t&c's are.

He'd already said he didn't have any Ts & Cs.

[Jonathan Ford]

I know this is probably unusual but the 2 venues I done the majority of Christmas nights for paid me in advance (1st December).

My reasoning for requesting this is that their own T&C for the parties stated that a £10 deposit per person was required with the remaining balance paid no later than 1st December. I requested a 20% deposit with remaining balance by 1st December which they agreed to.

I know that dealing with companies does often result in invoicing for the fee and often waiting 28 days or longer. There are a few corporate gigs I do where this is the case, but for a block booking ie Christmas parties I do try and insist on payment in advance.

Thanks for sorting out the strategy for this December :cheers:

[rob1963]

Having read some of the stories in this thread, I'm definately going to carry on dealing with one-off individual clients rather than companies!

:shrug:

[andyw]

Having read some of the stories in this thread, I'm definately going to carry on dealing with one-off individual clients rather than companies!

:shrug:

it's not all bad dealing with company's. getting the balance right between keeping them happy and not being seen as a soft touch is the key.

[Pe7e]

If the hotel in question is the Makeney Hall hotel, I have bad news, they have been in adminstration since 22nd Jan this year, if so, did you not receive this letter? http://www.foliohotels.com/pdf/Letter-to-suppliers-260109.PDF

[rob1963]

it's not all bad dealing with company's. getting the balance right between keeping them happy and not being seen as a soft touch is the key.

That's fine, but what about THEM keeping YOU happy (by paying you on time)?

[Jonathan Ford]

If the hotel in question is the Makeney Hall hotel, I have bad news, they have been in adminstration since 22nd Jan this year, if so, did you not receive this letter? http://www.foliohotels.com/pdf/Letter-to-suppliers-260109.PDF

No, it's not Makeney, though I had heard about their financial difficulties.

The latest update is, that even though the hotel GM is on annual leave, he's going in to head office on Monday to sort it, and has copied all of my emails to his MD. I suspect this is some uppity wally (? I can say that right? It's not like I called him a see you next tuesday!!) of a purchase ledger monkey trying to flex his muscles.