Can A Venue Do This?

[JTRS]

I've had a couple of enquiries lately for DJing at a local hotel, all the enquirers have said the same thing, ie that if they don't use the resident DJ the hotel charge an extra £100 to cover insurance of the private DJ.

I know (and you know) it's a scam because the hotel obviously make profit out of the difference between what they charge the DJ out at and what they actually pay him, but to my mind to justify it by claiming it is for insurance is going a step too far.

Firstly I have my own Public Liability insurance, and secondly they are in essence acting as an Insurance Broker by selling insurance, since they are not a registered Insurance Broker they are not allowed to sell insurance, and furthermore they do not provide anything in writing about what cover they actually provide.

I've tried talking to the Hotel Manager but he will not answer any of my questions so I'm thinking of calling Trading Standards, but just wanted your comments in case I'm missing something.

If I am being honest it's now become personal between me and the hotel (due to their attitude) and whilst I may not get a booking there I'd kind of like to stop them from doing this.

Thanks in advance

JTRS

[rob1963]

As far as I'm aware, a venue can charge as much extra as they like for bringing in an outside DJ, and I don't think they even have to give a reason for this. They can just say "that's our policy"

At the end of the day, each hotel can adopt whatever policies & charges they like, although in your case is seems that their insurance reason seems a bit of a feeble excuse.

[JTRS]

Thanks for your reply Rob, but I'm not so sure that a venue can adopt/apply whatever charges they want it, IF (and I use capitals for the IF) it could be classed as 'Unfair Trading'.

I've heard of cases where the Office Of Fair Trading will intervene when a Company tries to create a 'monopoly' situation, and to my mind by imposing a charge on a customer who doesn't use the resident DJ is doing just that.

If they had hidden behind the Room Hire clause (Ie we charge x for the room hire but waive that if you use our DJ) then I wouldn't have an argument, but that's not the case here.

JTRS

PS Like I said it's now become personal so if I can cause any hassle for the Hotel I'd do it because I really hate arrogant attitudes as displayed by the Manager

[Spirits High]

Unfortunately the venue can do what they like.

Afterall it's their business.

There is a venue in Nottinghamshire (Remains nameless but very very nice) that if you want your own Dj you have to pay the full fee for theirs :eek: which the last time I read about it was £450 :eek: :eek:

[JTRS]

Unfortunately the venue can do what they like.

Afterall it's their business.



Hmm so the Hotel doesn't have to abide by current legislation then?

I'm sorry but I disagree that 'a venue can do what they like'.

I would suggest that because venues have been allowed to get away with practices like this for so long unchallenged that most people now assume they can do what they like, which isn't the case.


JTRS

[kjdiscos]

Its the venue's property they can charge what they like, Its a little extreme i agree but they want to use the resident to make more money,

I would just exclude the venue

[Spirits High]

Its the venue's property they can charge what they like, Its a little extreme i agree but they want to use the resident to make more money,

I would just exclude the venue

Unfortunately I don't get a chance to "exclude it" as most B&G's won't pay double money.

When some have budgets of £200 there's no way they going to pay £450 + whatever I cost ;)

And don't say that if they're having big posh venues they can afford it. I had a phone enquiry for Hassop Hall and they baulked at my quote. Once I got chatting a bit more to her it turns out their budget was indeed £200 :eek: :eek:

For those that don't know Hassop Hall let's just say it ain't cheap ;)

[JTRS]

Its the venue's property they can charge what they like, Its a little extreme i agree but they want to use the resident to make more money,

I would just exclude the venue

They can charge what they like IF (and only IF) they can justify the charges, otherwise Trading Standards can be called in, under the unfair business terms.

I've said it a few times now, it's not a matter of excluding the venue, it's a point of principal. If they get away with doing this and more and more venues adopt it then it's bad (very bad) for the mobile DJ, however, if they get publicly rebuked and stopped from doing it then other venues won't follow suit.

JTRS

[kjdiscos]

Unfortunately I don't get a chance to "exclude it" as most B&G's won't pay double money.

When some have budgets of £200 there's no way they going to pay £450 + whatever I cost ;)

And don't say that if they're having big posh venues they can afford it. I had a phone enquiry for Hassop Hall and they baulked at my quote. Once I got chatting a bit more to her it turns out their budget was indeed £200 :eek: :eek:

For those that don't know Hassop Hall let's just say it ain't cheap ;)

Nice venue that

[A1DL]

They can charge what they like IF (and only IF) they can justify the charges, otherwise Trading Standards can be called in, under the unfair business terms.


A good justification would be to give a £100 discount on the room hire price, when a client also buys the entertainment from the venue.

[JTRS]

A good justification would be to give a £100 discount on the room hire price, when a client also buys the entertainment from the venue.


Agreed.

I said earlier if they hid behind that then I wouldn't have an argument

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

They can charge what they like IF (and only IF) they can justify the charges, otherwise Trading Standards can be called in, under the unfair business terms.

I've said it a few times now, it's not a matter of excluding the venue, it's a point of principal. If they get away with doing this and more and more venues adopt it then it's bad (very bad) for the mobile DJ, however, if they get publicly rebuked and stopped from doing it then other venues won't follow suit.

JTRS

For someone who has only just started mobiles, you seem to be getting in very deep with legal matters. Just an observation.

This situation has been happening for years and I doubt you or anyone else will be able to do anything about it. And even if you do, what have you achieved? You still aren't guaranteed work and venues will find other reasons not to have you as you will become known as a troublemaker.

[DazzyD]

As far as I'm aware there is no such legislation as "Unfair Business Terms". There's the "Unfair Contracts" legislation but I cannot see how this would cover the charges that a venue makes. The Unfair Contracts laws simply back up other consumer legislation.

And the other members on this site are quite correct. The venue can choose to impose whatever charges they want. After all, they are losing money by the client not taking the resident DJ. And you will be using their facilities, electricity, toilets, etc. Why shouldn't they make an additional to cover their losses?

As for saying it's to fund an insurance policy, this may well be the case. You can buy insurance on an event by event basis. It could also be an insurance waiver clause whereby the venues main insurance may not include include 3rd party cover but, for a charge, this could be waived.

All in all, the venue is a business there to make money. You could try complaining to your local Trading Standards but I'm 99.9% confident there's not a lot they can do (and I have my connections with TS as I've said before).

Finally, you seem very vindictive and hold a grudge. A public forum maybe isn't the best place for a service provider to show these attitudes. Just my opinion.

[JTRS]

For someone who has only just started mobiles, you seem to be getting in very deep with legal matters. Just an observation.

This situation has been happening for years and I doubt you or anyone else will be able to do anything about it. And even if you do, what have you achieved? You still aren't guaranteed work and venues will find other reasons not to have you as you will become known as a troublemaker.

I moved into DJing with a lot of years of entertainment behind me, I used to be a stand up comedian and having worked the comedy circuit for many years I am no stranger to either the sneaky tricks that venues try to pull or what is and what isn't legal.

I suspect the situation has been happening for years because nobody has challenged it, hence it has escalated and spread.

I don't subscribe to the 'you can't do anything about it so don't bother trying' mentality. As for what I will achieve if I am successful, well that's obvious isn't it (venues will stop doing this and it's better for ALL mobile DJ's, I would have thought that other DJ's would have wanted this).

Yes I know I'm not guaranteed work there and to that venue (and that venue alone) I'm known as a troublemaker, so what? And if a client books me to play there I hardly see them stopping me from playing there and citing 'ooh he made trouble for us by highlighting we were doing something wrong'

JTRS

[kjdiscos]

I moved into DJing with a lot of years of entertainment behind me, I used to be a stand up comedian and having worked the comedy circuit for many years I am no stranger to either the sneaky tricks that venues try to pull or what is and what isn't legal.

I suspect the situation has been happening for years because nobody has challenged it, hence it has escalated and spread.

I don't subscribe to the 'you can't do anything about it so don't bother trying' mentality. As for what I will achieve if I am successful, well that's obvious isn't it (venues will stop doing this and it's better for ALL mobile DJ's, I would have thought that other DJ's would have wanted this).

Yes I know I'm not guaranteed work there and to that venue (and that venue alone) I'm known as a troublemaker, so what? And if a client books me to play there I hardly see them stopping me from playing there and citing 'ooh he made trouble for us by highlighting we were doing something wrong'

JTRS

No but they could make your job very difficuilt if they wanted to, I think darrens right

[JTRS]

Finally, you seem very vindictive and hold a grudge. A public forum maybe isn't the best place for a service provider to show these attitudes. Just my opinion.


I think that's a bit uncalled for.

Standing up for something that I believe to be right and admitting it's become personal because the manager will not address or answer legitimate questions is hardly evidence or indicative of being vindictive.

I posed the original question because I wanted advice and comments from other DJ's, when personal attacks get posted it's time to withdraw the question and stop posting.


JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

If you have been in the entertainment industry, I think you are a little naive to think that you can change what venues do with regard to which companies they use and how much they charge.

There will always be a way round it and do you think you are the first ever person to be peeved about this and try to do something about it? I doubt it very much.

I don't necessarily agree with the situation, but you won't change it.

[DazzyD]

Venue owners can be a close-knit community. Get yourself blacklisted from one and you could find problems getting work at others in the area.

And, as far I'm aware, the law wouldn't back you in this. And to challenge the law can be a very, very expensive adventure!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I posed the original question because I wanted advice and comments from other DJ's, when personal attacks get posted it's time to withdraw the question and stop posting.


JTRS

Woah back. He is not attacking you, just putting his point of view across.

[rob1963]

They can charge what they like IF (and only IF) they can justify the charges, otherwise Trading Standards can be called in, under the unfair business terms.

I've said it a few times now, it's not a matter of excluding the venue, it's a point of principal. If they get away with doing this and more and more venues adopt it then it's bad (very bad) for the mobile DJ, however, if they get publicly rebuked and stopped from doing it then other venues won't follow suit.

JTRS

Are you say that all venues which either make you use the in house DJ or charge extra if you bring in an outside DJ are breaking the law?

As stated already, each venue will make its own policy, just as we all make our own policies.

If I wanted to, I could state that my prices include me wearing a t shirt & jeans, and if customers want me to wear a shirt, tie & trousers there is an extra charge of £50.

Who is to say which charges are fair & which ones arent.

Even if I don't use my business bank account one month, I still get charged £10, because that's their minimum monthly business account charge.

Do I think that's fair? No, but it still happens!

:shrug:

[JTRS]

Woah back. He is not attacking you, just putting his point of view across.

"Finally, you seem very vindictive and hold a grudge."

I take that as a personal comment and very insulting.

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

"Finally, you seem very vindictive and hold a grudge."

I take that as a personal comment and very insulting.

JTRS

Then perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin or not bother starting these threads.

[DazzyD]

I think that's a bit uncalled for.

Standing up for something that I believe to be right and admitting it's become personal because the manager will not address or answer legitimate questions is hardly evidence or indicative of being vindictive.

I posed the original question because I wanted advice and comments from other DJ's, when personal attacks get posted it's time to withdraw the question and stop posting.


JTRS

My apologies if you feel that my post was a personal attack. I'm here as an established service provider to help others in the industry in whatever way I can.

My point was that this forum is open to everyone including venue owners and potential clients. If you go posting stuff that paint you as being akward or uncooperative, then this is what potential customers will think of you and will steer well clear. In this industry, reputation goes a long way and the only way to succeed is to ensure that your reputation is a good one.

[Kernow]

A venue may make any charges they like, it's an 'offer to treat', and entirely up to the client whether they choose to accept it or not.

It's really no different to 'corkage' charges imposed by many venues if the client wants to provide their own drinks. This is quite normally around £15 per bottle for Champange & Sparkling Wine for example. Easily justified by the cost of their licence ,& staff to serve it.

If £100 can influence prospective clients in their choice of DJ, you simply need to sell yourself as 'worth the extra' ;)
Alternatively impress a venue enough to be awarded their residency ? :)
You first need to get your foot in the door though and it might be worth considering a decision to discount your own charges to offset the supplement ? :)

Either way it will require positive & pro-active negotiation, and I don't think that threats of legal action will get you very far.

[JTRS]

Then perhaps you need to grow a thicker skin or not bother starting these threads.


Yes you are right

I apologise unreservedly for starting this post in the first place, I should just accept everything a venue decides to do without question.

I also apologise for taking offence at been called vindictive, I should just ignore personal comments.

I will also take your advice and refrain from starting any further threads.

Can someone close this thread now as it's clearly causing a problem to some users.

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Yes you are right

I apologise unreservedly for starting this post in the first place, I should just accept everything a venue decides to do without question.

I also apologise for taking offence at been called vindictive, I should just ignore personal comments.

I will also take your advice and refrain from starting any further threads.

Can someone close this thread now as it's clearly causing a problem to some users.

JTRS

What is your problem?

You start a thread and obviously don't like the advice and comments there in, so throw your toys out of your pram.

....I wonder why you gave up being a comedian? :sj:

[spin mobile disco]

Its an intersting point and one that im sure has caused friction to all of us at one time or another.
Just to make a little sidenote in america the fair usage policy would make this illigel. However british law has unfortuanlty never been based on common scense.
I sympathise with you over this and agree that the insurance scam is very hard to swallow as we all use PLI anyway and are well aware of the costs.
And in any case if the bride and groom have wedding insurance they may find this is even included in the cost.
I think the trading standards would be unable to help you. This doesnt mean they think it is fair but that they could see the difficulty in enforcing it.

I have had similar on several occasions and had to deal with very offencive and petty minded managers on these occasions as they do not want me there. On one occassion they even tried to stop me getting in to the premesis. (thats why I always have the bride and grooms number on my mobile and a copy of my pat and pli with me)

I can offer my hope you have some success in this but feel that even if you do it may cause you problems in the long run.

[JTRS]

What is your problem?

You start a thread and obviously don't like the advice and comments there in, so throw your toys out of your pram.

....I wonder why you gave up being a comedian? :sj:


Someone in the audience shouted 'Oi You look like you are vindictive and I bet you hold a grudge'.

That was the last time I performed on stage and the very next day i went out and bought some decks in the hope of never being called that again!

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Someone in the audience shouted 'Oi You look like you are vindictive and I bet you hold a grudge'.



My guess is that someone heckled you and you threatened to take them to court. :sj:

[JTRS]

My guess is that someone heckled you and you threatened to take them to court. :sj:

Yes, you got it in 1 (insert applause for the astuteness) it was in my terms and conditions (no heckling allowed) which were obviously totally enforceable at any decent kangaroo court.

JTRS

[Pe7e]

They can charge what they like IF (and only IF) they can justify the charges, otherwise Trading Standards can be called in, under the unfair business terms.



Who's told you that load of rubbish? There is price control of sorts in companies and public utilities in monopoly and near monopoly positions. Otherwise, for the vast majority of businesses in the UK, there is no price control whatsoever (other than customer resistance and supply and demand) You can charge what you want and they can charge whatever they want. You can rest assured there are DJs on this forum who ask £150 or less for a wedding and others who ask £800 or more for a similar do, no doubt Tiesto would be asking £25,000 or more where is the price control here?

[JTRS]

OK to get back on topic

Comparing this to corkage charges, when you bring your own drinks you are still using their facilities (ie glasses, cleaning, clearing away etc), that was ruled acceptable and so therefore I can see why a charge for that is made.

To my mind it's like Microsoft and the IE case (they lost in the EU), they sold an operating system (ie Windows) and then forced users to use Internet Explorer and made it virtually impossible for you to use any other. Other vendors took them to task and won (in Court). It was based on unfair trading. To my mind it's the same principal here, the customer wants the venue, wants the food, wants the drinks but does not want the DJ but the venue charge for something that is not core.

To be honest i'm surprised that most of you are saying 'Yeah lets lie down and take this', I would have thought that if we stopped them from doing this it would be better for every mobile DJ.

Whilst I personally may never get any work from this venue if they are made to stop doing it then it's a good thing because it will stop the prolifferation of this, perhaps to a venue that i would get work from.

JTRS

[JTRS]

Who's told you that load of rubbish? There is price control of sorts in companies and public utilities in monopoly and near monopoly positions. Otherwise, for the vast majority of businesses in the UK, there is no price control whatsoever (other than customer resistance and supply and demand) You can charge what you want and they can charge whatever they want. You can rest assured there are DJs on this forum who ask £150 or less for a wedding and others who ask £800 or more for a similar do, no doubt Tiesto would be asking £25,000 or more where is the price control here?

You are missing the point.

It's not about prices charged. A customer should be free to go to which DJ they want.

This is about the venue charging for something they are not entitled to charge for

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

You are missing the point.



No, you are and when you have been in this industry a while longer you might realise that.

[JTRS]

No, you are and when you have been in this industry a while longer you might realise that.

Yes Obe Wan, I need to learn the ways of DJing.

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

This is about the venue charging for something they are not entitled to charge for



If they want to charge it, they will. Call it a stealth charge if you will. It will end up somewhere on the bill and there's nothing you can do about it.

Do you honestly think that a lot of people haven't come across this situation before?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Yes Obe Wan, I need to learn the ways of DJing.

JTRS

No, you need to learn the ways of our industry and listen to experienced people and be realistic.

You come on here with no experience and yet disagree with everyone.

I will repeat. Why bother starting the thread if you don't like what people are telling you?

[DazzyD]

OK to get back on topic

Comparing this to corkage charges, when you bring your own drinks you are still using their facilities (ie glasses, cleaning, clearing away etc), that was ruled acceptable and so therefore I can see why a charge for that is made.

That's part of it but if you're not buying their bottles of wine/champagne then they are losing out. Would you expect to walk in to a 5* restaurant and bring your own food and not be challenged? The corkage charge is simply a venues way of meeting the client in the middle without it losing out financially.


To my mind it's like Microsoft and the IE case (they lost in the EU), they sold an operating system (ie Windows) and then forced users to use Internet Explorer and made it virtually impossible for you to use any other. Other vendors took them to task and won (in Court). It was based on unfair trading. To my mind it's the same principal here, the customer wants the venue, wants the food, wants the drinks but does not want the DJ but the venue charge for something that is not core.

First of all, the case against Microsoft cost millions of dollars in legal fees. It also have the potential to have an effect worldwide. And it wasn't initiated in the UK under British legistlation. I don't believe you have the financial muscle to launch such a legal challenge against your venue. If I'm wrong, and somehow you do, I can't see a business barrister taking up your case as they judge every potential case on it's likelihood to succeed and I don't think your case would win.


To be honest i'm surprised that most of you are saying 'Yeah lets lie down and take this', I would have thought that if we stopped them from doing this it would be better for every mobile DJ.

Whilst I personally may never get any work from this venue if they are made to stop doing it then it's a good thing because it will stop the prolifferation of this, perhaps to a venue that i would get work from.

JTRS

Your ideals are all very honourable. However, in business you need to be more realistic. The facts are that you really don't have a legal case, initiating a test case to set a legal precedent is very expensive, and it's unlikely you'll find a legal team to take it on even if you could afford them. Being realistic is major part of being successful.

[Creature]

the only way i can see this issue changing is if all the bookee's of the venue refuses to have the intern Disco and either pay the extra or take there business elsewhere. but as this will never happen you have to just take it on teh chin.

I have come up against this a few times, and luckily the peopel booking me stumped up the extra. It just made me more determined to put on agreat nite. One of those venues I now get 1st choice of all bookings :):)

reguardless of venues managers & staff I always try my hardest to remain polite, mor eto make sure it doesnt ruin my customers evening.

[JTRS]

No, you need to learn the ways of our industry and listen to experienced people and be realistic.

You come on here with no experience and yet disagree with everyone.

I will repeat. Why bother starting the thread if you don't like what people are telling you?

So just because I am new to DJing means I can't have my opinion and disagree with people (in a polite way)???

The whole point of this thread was to get opinions, and if I choose to disagree oir debate the opinions posted with a reasonable counter argument that makes me a troublemaker????????

JTRS

[DeckstarDeluxe]

All I can say is pick your battles. While none of us like the way venue owners operate sometimes you should maybe think about getting yourself into another hotel on the same deal?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

So just because I am new to DJing means I can't have my opinion and disagree with people (in a polite way)???

The whole point of this thread was to get opinions, and if I choose to disagree oir debate the opinions posted with a reasonable counter argument that makes me a troublemaker????????

JTRS

I didn't call you a troublemaker, so I expect an apology please.

I actually said venues would class you as a troublemaker.

You have had plenty of opinions, most of which have said, don't bother - you won't achieve anything. Your intentions are honourable, but unrealistic and if you listened to others who have been there and done that, you'd realise that.




This situation has been happening for years and I doubt you or anyone else will be able to do anything about it. And even if you do, what have you achieved? You still aren't guaranteed work and venues will find other reasons not to have you as you will become known as a troublemaker.

[JTRS]

That's part of it but if you're not buying their bottles of wine/champagne then they are losing out. Would you expect to walk in to a 5* restaurant and bring your own food and not be challenged? The corkage charge is simply a venues way of meeting the client in the middle without it losing out financially.



First of all, the case against Microsoft cost millions of dollars in legal fees. It also have the potential to have an effect worldwide. And it wasn't initiated in the UK under British legistlation. I don't believe you have the financial muscle to launch such a legal challenge against your venue. If I'm wrong, and somehow you do, I can't see a business barrister taking up your case as they judge every potential case on it's likelihood to succeed and I don't think your case would win.



Your ideals are all very honourable. However, in business you need to be more realistic. The facts are that you really don't have a legal case, initiating a test case to set a legal precedent is very expensive, and it's unlikely you'll find a legal team to take it on even if you could afford them. Being realistic is major part of being successful.


Yes I said I agreed with corkage charges, I wasn't arguing that

English law is secondary to EU law, since the MS ruling had set the precedent and we are part of the EU I assumed it would help the case since the DJ is NOT part of the core function or intrinsic to the contract. That weakens the venue's case. Obvioulsy I don't have the resources to fight it in Court but I can challnegse something to a point before it costs money, maybe TS won't be interested but I figure it's worth a try.

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Can I ask what your ultimate aim is here?

[JTRS]

I didn't call you a troublemaker, so I expect an apology please.

I actually said venues would class you as a troublemaker.

You have had plenty of opinions, most of which have said, don't bother - you won't achieve anything. Your intentions are honourable, but unrealistic and if you listened to others who have been there and done that, you'd realise that.


You show me where I said YOU called me a troublemaker and I'll post an apology.

Re-read the post, by your own statement you have vindicated me because you confirm what I said that if I challenge opinions I would get classed as a troublemaker (by the venues)

JTRS

[Pe7e]

You are missing the point.

It's not about prices charged. A customer should be free to go to which DJ they want.

This is about the venue charging for something they are not entitled to charge for



The customer IS free to use any DJ they want, but not necessarily in a particular venue, the DJs are free to accept or reject any offer of work, and the venues are also free to exclude any customer or service provider they choose. Thankfully we still live in a relatively free society, although it sometimes works against us, I wouldn't want to change it one little bit.

[JTRS]

Can I ask what your ultimate aim is here?


To get comments from other DJ's about if they have come across this and if they have done anything about it.

The general consensus is that nobody has challenged it, they have all accpeted it and apathy rules the day.

I still think the venue CANNOT legally charge for insurance and I'll make a call to trading standards and get their take on it.

Maybe nothing will change but at least I will feel that I have ACTUALLY tried to make a difference.

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

You show me where I said YOU called me a troublemaker and I'll post an apology.

Re-read the post, by your own statement you have vindicated me because you confirm what I said that if I challenge opinions I would get classed as a troublemaker (by the venues)

JTRS

Then why did you quote me for then in your post? :bang:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Maybe nothing will change but at least I will feel that I have ACTUALLY tried to make a difference.



And you're the only one who's ever done anything for this industry, obviously.

You have no idea....

I thought you said you used to be a comedian? :sj:

[JTRS]

And you're the only one who's ever done anything for this industry, obviously.

You have no idea....

No, in reality I have never done anything for this industry, yet when I try and change something that I think is to the detriment of ALL mobile DJ's this is the kind of reply I get.

You are right, I have no idea

JTRS

And just to show why I used to be a comedian........

I went on ebay last night looking for a dictaphone, it sent me your number!!!!

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No, in reality I have never done anything for this industry, yet when I try and change something that I think is to the detriment of ALL mobile DJ's this is the kind of reply I get.


Because you aren't being realistic. How many more times.....

[JTRS]

Because you aren't being realistic. How many more times.....


That is your opinion and I respect your right to post it, however I THINK I am being realistic.

Like I said I'll take it as far as I can with the local TS and see if it flies, at least then I WILL HAVE TRIED as opposed to just being a sheep

JTRS

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

at least then I WILL HAVE TRIED as opposed to just being a sheep


Nice. Insulting the rest of our members on here.

[JTRS]

Nice. Insulting the rest of our members on here.


Exactly how is that an insult to the rest of our members.

I said I was NOT a sheep. I didn't say anyone was a sheep.

Re-read it again

JTRS

[DeckstarDeluxe]

JTRS, while your first few posts I could understand your feelings I think now you are not doing yourself any favours. Maybe take some time out, cool off and then think about what you want to do about it. If you do go down the legal route then keep us informed but Im afaird I dont hold out any hope.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Exactly how is that an insult to the rest of our members.

I said I was NOT a sheep. I didn't say anyone was a sheep.

Re-read it again

JTRS

The insinuation was there.

You've had your opinions and you can do what you want.

I will close this thread as I am rapidly getting fed up with your attitude and I don't want this to turn into a full blown argument which would help no-one at all.

As far as I can see, you've asked for opinions, read them and ignored them to do what you you were going to originally anyway, so this is now null and void.

Start a new thread when you've done something.