Loudest sound system if as little outlay as poss? [Archive]

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notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 03:14 PM

Spirits High

05-06-2009, 03:23 PM

Got it Daz,

As I posted that so did he :eek: :D :D

Babybob

05-06-2009, 03:25 PM

Hi Mate

Check out the search facility and type in Class D, a few members here use them, they are very reasonable but can be on the large side. I have the CD15SP's and they are a good full range speaker for anyone on a budget.

There are loads of amps out there but again use the search button for some very useful information.

:beer1:

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 03:26 PM

thanks.Have looked at the class d`s but got overwhelmed by how many differnt models there are.

Ive looked here and found a couple of interesting setups.
What amp would you recommend to go with these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2600W-2-X-Class-D-CD15SP-2-X-Class-D-CD15-Speakers_W0QQitemZ230335765704QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item35a114dcc8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Or what amp to go with these? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1400W-Pair-of-Class-D-CD15SP-Speakers-For-DJs-or-Bands_W0QQitemZ330320413454QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C onElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item4ce8a1830e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

What about this to power them for just the cd15sp http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EP2000-Behringer-Pro-Audio-Power-Amp_W0QQitemZ330329607572QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Aud ioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?hash=item 4ce92dcd94&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

Or this to power the cd12sp & cd15 subs - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EP4000-Behringer-Pro-Audio-Power-Amp-Free-Leads_W0QQitemZ230342945616QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_M usicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL?hash=item35a1826b50&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

Ok would the following work together: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EP4000-Behringer-Pro-Audio-Power-Amp-Free-Leads_W0QQitemZ230342945616QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_M usicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL?hash=item35a1826b50&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30
and this speaker setup : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2600W-2-X-Class-D-CD15SP-2-X-Class-D-CD15-Speakers_W0QQitemZ230335765704QQcmdZViewItemQQptZU K_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item35a114dcc8&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

OR A BIT CHEAPER::

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1400W-Pair-of-Class-D-CD15SP-Speakers-For-DJs-or-Bands_W0QQitemZ330320413454QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C onElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item4ce8a1830e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1683%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
and this amp : http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EP2000-Behringer-Pro-Audio-Power-Amp_W0QQitemZ330329607572QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Aud ioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers?hash=item 4ce92dcd94&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30

My posts keep going missing when ive asked if certain packages i find go together. Is ebay links not allowed?

What about if i get CD15SP with a behringer EP2000 amp OR CD12SP & CD15 subs with an Behringer EP4000 amp?

Solitaire Events Ltd

05-06-2009, 04:00 PM

Mark

Calm down and think about what you are posting.

Compile your post and then click post reply. Please don't make reply after reply.

Your posts are in a moderation queue for the time being until we know you are genuine and not a troublemaker or spammer.

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 04:02 PM

Oh i see, im so sorry. Will be more patient.

Solitaire Events Ltd

05-06-2009, 04:03 PM

Oh i see, im so sorry. Will be more patient.

Thank you. :)

Tom

05-06-2009, 04:14 PM

Im looking at building up a sound system for as little as poss money.

Before i had a 300wrms 15" skytec speakers x2 through a soundlab 500w amp which i have since realised was running at about 250w per channel due to the ohms of the speakers.

What would you recommend as looking at about 600wrms per speaker and at least 500w coming from the amp and what people hear after calcualting ohms etc!

Dont mind going second hand but budget cant stretch over £450 - lower if at all possible.

If you are any good with woodwork, I could supply you a plan to build your own cab for free.

I made up a plan for another forum member and he was very happy with the results.

As for Class-D. They are not the most efficient speakers out there, but from what I have read, they sound good.

Babybob

05-06-2009, 05:09 PM

CRAZY K

05-06-2009, 05:51 PM

Mark

If you go with the CD15SP's try and get an amp which gives out 500w at 8 ohms, then you should have some power left over to maybe run a single sub if you need more bass in the future.

Bear in mind these speakers are HUGE and won't fit into many cars, I have a Zafira and they go in with the seats fully forward, but some members have encountered problems in getting them into an Escort Estate for example, something to mear in mind before you shell out your hard earned.

Some of us have trouble getting them (CD 15SP) on to a speaker stand--which is a shame because I think the sound is excellent for the price--apparently there are people in Yorkshire who can do this--Ive seen them:D :D :D

Im probably going for bass reinforcement with the Bass Cab CD15N when their new lightweight amp comes out.

Personally I think Class D have one of the smallest and simplest range of speakers on their website---:confused:

CRAZY K

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 06:35 PM

Has anyone got a good cheapish amp that i could pair up with the cd15sp`s and maybe be enuf to power subs after?

Excalibur

05-06-2009, 07:04 PM

Im looking at building up a sound system for as little as poss money.

Before i had a 300wrms 15" skytec speakers x2 through a soundlab 500w amp which i have since realised was running at about 250w per channel due to the ohms of the speakers.

What would you recommend as looking at about 600wrms per speaker and at least 500w coming from the amp and what people hear after calcualting ohms etc!

Dont mind going second hand but budget cant stretch over £450 - lower if at all possible.

Can't do what you want new for that budget. :( Closest would be CD15SP with C-Mark 2450 or similar amp. It'll ultimately leave you down on the sound output I guess you desire.

Best S/h would be Peavey UL15 /Hisys 2RX/ 2XT with amp to match.
Actives might fit your price range if you found the right ones. Ask away, folk will give help.
Berry 2000 is too small. 4000 is size you need, whether into CD15SP's on their own, or with subs.

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 07:06 PM

I dont mind going 2nd hand.
WHeres the best place to look as ebay not that good at the mo.

A1DL

05-06-2009, 07:49 PM

What would you recommend as looking at about 600wrms per speaker

ermmm.... any reason why? or is 600 a random number from a phone book?

600wrms per speaker and at least 500w coming from the amp

if the cabs are rated 600wrms INPUT power at given impedance, you want to be driving them with an amplifier that will power around 1,000-1,200wrms at same impedance.

Think along the lines of the national speed limit is 70mph... do you want a motor that will do 60mph with your foot hard on the floor, or one that will do a ton, and cruise comfortably at 70-80?

500w coming from the amp and what people hear after calcualting ohms etc!

(a) people can't hear watts and
(b) most people tend not to get too hung up about Ohm's law when listening to music and consuming alcoholic beverages at a party

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 07:53 PM

very funny ;)

I chose 600wrms per speaker as my old speakers were 350wrms and struggled. Then again this might be due to my old amp running only about 200wrms into my 8ohm speakers

Excalibur

05-06-2009, 07:53 PM

I dont mind going 2nd hand.
WHeres the best place to look as ebay not that good at the mo.

No experience of these folk, but this is the sort of thing I'd suggest.

http://www.rockfactory.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=psp-peavhisys2xt1

http://www.rockfactory.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=psp-peavhisys2xtused

Good sized amp to feed them, and away you go.

These are nearer you.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peavey-Hisys-Hysis-2xt_W0QQitemZ260423032623QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Con Elec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item3ca26c1f2f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1688%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Worth watching.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Peavey-Hisys-2XT-Full-Range-Speaker-15-350w-4ohm-PAIR_W0QQitemZ290321717972QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Co nElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item439885dad4&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1688%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 07:57 PM

cool - but class d are brand new at same price. What would other people recommend - 2ndhand peaveys OR new Class D

DJ Jules

05-06-2009, 08:05 PM

cool - but class d are brand new at same price. What would other people recommend - 2ndhand peaveys OR new Class D

At the risk of giving away the reason why I've been talking so much about Class D's tonight :p

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120429231127

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380128739924

In case you're wondering, I've decided I won't be bidding against anyone... I'm still saving up for "something better" whatever the hell that is ;)

Julian

A1DL

05-06-2009, 08:12 PM

very funny ;)

wasn't meant to be :confused:

I chose 600wrms per speaker as my old speakers were 350wrms and struggled.

Mark - the amount of power a speaker needs to drive it does not determine how loud the speaker is. You want to look at efficiency (measured with 1 watt at 1 metre) and maximum sound pressure level data (both measurements will be quoted in decibels, not watts) to determine how loud a speaker will play.

Coming back to the motoring example, car "A" averages 45mpg, car "B" averages 22mpg. Which one will drive the fastest? The answer is, you simply can't tell from the fuel consumption.

Speaker "A" needs 350wrms, speaker "B" needs 600wrms. Speaker "B" may be less efficient than speaker "A" and turn two thirds of that power into heat. Car "B" could be an S500 AMG, but there's more chance it's a 20 year old Granada with a knackered engine that's not been serviced for 5 years.

Excalibur

05-06-2009, 08:14 PM

cool - but class d are brand new at same price. What would other people recommend - 2ndhand peaveys OR new Class D

Peaveys will be 4ohms, more efficient, and probably give more sound. Whether you prefer that sound is a matter of taste/moot point. ;)
Edit: Tony, didn't see your posts when I posted, but as always, duly noted.;) ;)

A1DL

05-06-2009, 08:15 PM

2ndhand peaveys OR new Class D

Class D without a doubt - I've never heard them but there's plenty of people on here whom like them and that's a pretty good reference in my book.

Only get the Peavey's if you like your LF sound weak and flappy like a wet cardboard box being whacked with a shovel.

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 08:17 PM

The prob is the "efficency" isnt always advertised so how would i know?

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 08:21 PM

A1DL

05-06-2009, 08:21 PM

The prob is the "efficency" isnt always advertised so how would i know?

it's normally on the tech spec - if neither efficiency nor max SPL isn't I'd steer clear!

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 08:28 PM

Thanks for the advice. As most people are saying class d thats what im looking for. Just seeing how cheap i can get them now!

DJ Jules

05-06-2009, 08:29 PM

Looking at about 469.99 for the cheapest set i can find for cd12sp and cd15s and cheapest cd15sp is 279.99.

Anywhere cheaper? Would prefer the speaker/sub package so i wont need to upgrade in the near future.

If you don't mind the CD128-1's instead of the CD12SP, £150 on eBay at the moment for the complete package (see previous post - note that is brand new from Class D, though the price assumes no-one else from here bid's ;) ).

Does the subs come with crossovers built in?

Yup, but they cross at 200Hz which strikes me as an odd crossover point - I think Class D design their rigs to run with 2 x 18" subs, 2 x 15" subs and 1 x 12 or 15" top so the 15" cabs cross higher than a normal sub so they can help out the mid's.

Also whats the cheapest amp i could get that would power the above?

Sorry, not a clue on that one.

Julian

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 08:31 PM

How do the cd128`s compare to the cd12sp/15sp?

Excalibur

05-06-2009, 08:36 PM

Im siding for new Class d`s. thanks for the adverts tho ex.
Looking at about 469.99 for the cheapest set i can find for cd12sp and cd15s and cheapest cd15sp is 279.99.

Anywhere cheaper? Would prefer the speaker/sub package so i wont need to upgrade in the near future.Does the subs come with crossovers built in?

Also whats the cheapest amp i could get that would power the above?
Oh Yuss. ;) Sadly, it's not the best. :( It's well and truly eclipsed by an active crossover and second amp. ;)
Amp: Thomann, or Warrior lowest cost, C-Mark preferred, Berry 4000 seems good.

it's normally on the tech spec - if neither efficiency nor max SPL isn't I'd steer clear!
True.
Tony, I'm genuinely baffled as to why Pro Sound Men hate Peavey with a vengeance, and many others love 'em. :confused: :confused: I have a pair of Eurosys 3's which were my flagship cabs for many years. Funnily enough, they're less efficient than Class -d's now! :eek: :eek: If Crazy's not watching, we ran his Pro 15's against my Class D's, and he won hands down on volume, I preferred the sound of mine by a large margin.

DJ Jules

05-06-2009, 08:36 PM

How do the cd128`s compare to the cd12sp/15sp?

See the middle of post #42 in this thread http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20362&page=5

Apparently they're "fine", but the CD12SP are better

Julian

DJ Jules

05-06-2009, 08:40 PM

We ran his Pro 15's against my Class D's, and he won hands down on volume, I preferred the sound of mine by a large margin.

There's some real mixed opinions around. Charlie posted elsewhere saying he preferred his Prosound's to the Class D's.

Someone ought to organise a "Who's got the biggest Rig" contest! :eek:

Seriously though, it'd be an interesting day out for me to get a chance to compare the performance of a whole bunch of different tops/bins/amps. Dunno if it'd appeal to the wife though ;)

Julian

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 08:51 PM

Shame im not near nottingham!!
Anyone more local to me (swindon) to let me hear the class d 15`s?

Very interesting thread there.
Now wondering if i should go for the cd15sp`s now with a good amp and then getting additional subs (cd15`s) when i have more money?

Excalibur

05-06-2009, 08:53 PM

See the middle of post #42 in this thread http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=20362&page=5

Apparently they're "fine", but the CD12SP are better

Julian
And not surprisingly £100 dearer, and with compression drivers. ;)

There's some real mixed opinions around. Charlie posted elsewhere saying he preferred his Prosound's to the Class D's.

Someone ought to organise a "Who's got the biggest Rig" contest! :eek:

Seriously though, it'd be an interesting day out for me to get a chance to compare the performance of a whole bunch of different tops/bins/amps. Dunno if it'd appeal to the wife though ;)

Julian
Coalville. ;) ;)
Anybody who can find me can have a Coffee, and a play with 33% of the Class D range. 50% if Justin turns up. :D

Shame im not near nottingham!!
Anyone more local to me (swindon) to let me hear the class d 15`s?

Very interesting thread there.
Now wondering if i should go for the cd15sp`s now with a good amp and then getting additional subs (cd15`s) when i have more money?

Yes. And a crossover, and another amp. Or just a pair of 215's as well.

CRAZY K

05-06-2009, 09:43 PM

Class D without a doubt - I've never heard them but there's plenty of people on here whom like them and that's a pretty good reference in my book.

Only get the Peavey's if you like your LF sound weak and flappy like a wet cardboard box being whacked with a shovel.

I must have missed that;)

CRAZY K

DeckstarDeluxe

05-06-2009, 10:49 PM

Rather than getting caught up with rms (why 600). What sort of events are you doing? What sort of venues?

notroubleclubber

05-06-2009, 10:59 PM

From 50 - 200 people from small,large halls.

DeckstarDeluxe

05-06-2009, 11:12 PM

Not used the class D's before but I use Peavey ul15's. I got a second hand pair for £400. Its only 500rms but more than enough for the number of people you have mentioned

I also know a DJ who uses the Peavey Pro's bins and tops which arent too bad and abit cheaper.

Some people dislike peavey's so would suggest you demo a pair first

Excalibur

06-06-2009, 06:54 AM

Not used the class D's before but I use Peavey ul15's. I got a second hand pair for £400. Its only 500rms but more than enough for the number of people you have mentioned
Hmmmmmm. Now who do we know who recommended this in post #12?? :confused: :D :D :D :D :D

I also know a DJ who uses the Peavey Pro's bins and tops which arent too bad and abit cheaper.
We know one as well, don't we. ;) :D :D

Some people dislike peavey's so would suggest you demo a pair first

Some people dislike peavey's/Class D/ Mackie/ Bose/ Warrior/ Prosound/ Skytec ( Have I missed any of the usual suspects? ) so would suggest you demo a pair first. ;) :D :D :D

CRAZY K

06-06-2009, 07:03 AM

Some people dislike peavey's

I must have missed that;)

CRAZY K

Vectis

06-06-2009, 09:58 AM

I loved my Peavey Pro 15s for smaller gigs but now prefer to use Mackie SRM450s which are lighter and actually cope better with bigger crowds yet are on a par sound-wise.

They're a very good value starter package though - you can probably find them under £250 a pair without looking too hard (try Stagebeat).

Some people don't like the shape of the handles but I've never had a problem.

notroubleclubber

06-06-2009, 12:10 PM

Cant find them any cheaper than £799 tho!

Vectis

06-06-2009, 12:16 PM

Cant find them any cheaper than £799 tho!

I meant the Peavey Pro 15s :o

Here you go...

http://www.stagebeat.co.uk/P/4343/PEAVEY+PA+SPEAKERS+PRO15+15%22+4+ohm+1200w+PACKAGE

I run these with a Behringer Europower EP1500 amp and they sound lovely (for a budget setup).

Spirits High

06-06-2009, 12:17 PM

Cant find them any cheaper than £799 tho!

The wonders of google :D

£249

http://www.disco-world.co.uk/speakers/peavey-pro-15-speakers-pair-/prod_250.html

£219 :eek:

http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/Ex-Display-Peavey-Pro-15-Speakers-Pair.html

But out of stock :mad:

£258

http://www.hollywood-music.co.uk/products.php?product=Peavey-Messenger-Pro-15-PA-Speakers

But they're in Milton Keynes :(

Excalibur

06-06-2009, 12:46 PM

The wonders of google :D

£249

http://www.disco-world.co.uk/speakers/peavey-pro-15-speakers-pair-/prod_250.html

£219 :eek:

http://www.whybuynew.co.uk/Ex-Display-Peavey-Pro-15-Speakers-Pair.html

But out of stock :mad:

£258

http://www.hollywood-music.co.uk/products.php?product=Peavey-Messenger-Pro-15-PA-Speakers

But they're in Milton Keynes :(

Never mind Google, just look in Yorkshire. ;) :p :D :D
http://www.electromusic.co.uk/product.php?productid=176&cat=99&page=1

A1DL

06-06-2009, 12:51 PM

Have I missed any of the usual suspects?

Soundlab Reds & Blues :eek:

DJ Jules

06-06-2009, 07:30 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120429231127

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380128739924

Just out of interest, is it anyone from on here bidding on the two above (Class D CD128+CD15 or Class D CD128-a+CD15N)?

notroubleclubber

07-06-2009, 07:59 AM

Out of interest yes!

DJ Jules

07-06-2009, 08:18 AM

Out of interest yes!

Did you get the slightly heavier CD128+CD15 rig for £250.00 yesterday?

Julian

notroubleclubber

07-06-2009, 08:20 AM

no. But would of paid that if i was bidding.

DJ Jules

07-06-2009, 08:23 AM

no. But would of paid that if i was bidding.

Ok, I won't bid on the rig coming up today then, as I guess I'd be bidding against you ;)

Btw, it looks like they put rigs on at these kinds of prices pretty frequently - this one ends in a couple of days (£249.00 starting bid again):

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380129429077

Julian

notroubleclubber

07-06-2009, 08:27 AM

Are they decent enuf for like a large hall - bout 200 people? And what amp would you go for?

DJ Jules

07-06-2009, 08:40 AM

Are they decent enuf for like a large hall - bout 200 people? And what amp would you go for?

I'd say they'd be more than enough for a crowd of 200 - I'm using a rig rated at 250w RMS/side on the tops (and no subs) at the moment for crowds of about 150-200 in size and it's more than adequate. I don't have much experience on the Amp front and I think a few people have already given some good advice on this thread. If you want to get the most out of it, aim for either a single amp capable of delivery about 2kw or a pair of 1Kw amps and an active crossover.

Julian

CRAZY K

07-06-2009, 10:20 AM

I'd say they'd be more than enough for a crowd of 200 - I'm using a rig rated at 250w RMS/side on the tops (and no subs) at the moment for crowds of about 150-200 in size and it's more than adequate. I don't have much experience on the Amp front and I think a few people have already given some good advice on this thread. If you want to get the most out of it, aim for either a single amp capable of delivery about 2kw or a pair of 1Kw amps and an active crossover.

Julian

Personally I wouldnt attempt to perform in front of more than about 100 with the Peavey Pro 15s without sub reinforcement--

I am a Peavey user for 5 years---waits for Tony to award me a medal:D

Bear in mind some venues have dreadful acoustics---like my gig last night:eek:

Very old Memorial Hall--- that should have only needed tops as there were only 60 people ish!

No way:(

Mind you I do like to be heard:D :D :D

CRAZY K

notroubleclubber

07-06-2009, 05:49 PM

I got a chance of some peaveys Hi 2XT`s for £225 - is that good?

I missed out on the above as wasnt in to bid and they went for just under £220 which is gutting!

notroubleclubber

07-06-2009, 06:45 PM

DJ Jules

07-06-2009, 07:19 PM

Also how would you cable one of those systems?
I guess with 1 amp you`d have 2 channels with 2 sockets on each channel so you run one lot to one speaker and one for the other but with 2 amps how do you wire it as you have only 1 signal cable (L & R) coming out of mixer?

That's why ideally you need an active crossover, you feed the output from your mixer to the crossover, then the low output to one amp (on to the subs) and the high/mid to the second amp (on to the 12" tops). You can get away without it as the subs have built in passive crossovers, but then you'd either need to split the signal from your mixer, or if you have a mixer with a booth/monitor output you could feed one amp from this and the other from the master output (it depends on the mixer though)

Julian

notroubleclubber

08-06-2009, 06:41 AM

i see.thanks.that explains alot.how much do the cross overs go for?

DJ Jules

08-06-2009, 07:28 AM

i see.thanks.that explains alot.how much do the cross overs go for?

Have a google around - I've seen them go for as little as £20 on eBay, but they can cost up to £400 new.

Julian

A1DL

08-06-2009, 08:46 AM

Have a google around - I've seen them go for as little as £20 on eBay, but they can cost up to £400 new.

Julian

Add another zero to that, if you want a professional product such as an XTA or BSS. Oh, and I'm talking trade ex vat too!