Having a Band run through your PA???

[beaumont118]

I've got a Halloween themed charity night for the Saturday 31st (obviously!), and they've got me from 2 until 6.30pm (I'm inside, but I think there's going to be a bouncy castle for the kids outside and a buffet inside with me and the bar). I'm doing it for nothing because I know the fella who's organising it, and he'll pay my costs and buy me my drinks.

What's better is the venue (a working mens club), has agreed to let me carry on playing until 9.30pm at £40 an hour up until when their booked entertainment plays), which has only sweetened up the day for me :)

Anyway, a band is playing as well at some point in the afternoon, and I'm quite good friends with the guitarist, who is also good friends with the organiser. He's only 19ish, and his band have no PA, so have been asking me what they need to do. They have no money to rent, as they are doing this for free of course as well. I have said I don't have a mixing desk or drum kit mics (or all those XLR leads for that matter :p ), so am wondering what is best to say to them.

The only way I can see it going at the moment is the drum kit not being miked up at all (is that acoustic?), and then having all the guitars going through their amps and levelled up to the loudest the drums can play. I can then run the three vocal microphones through my normal mixer and run that through my PA system. Would this work - any alternatives available in setup? :confused:

Thanks for your help ;)

[Excalibur]

I've got a Halloween themed charity night for the Saturday 31st (obviously!), and they've got me from 2 until 6.30pm (I'm inside, but I think there's going to be a bouncy castle for the kids outside and a buffet inside with me and the bar). I'm doing it for nothing because I know the fella who's organising it, and he'll pay my costs and buy me my drinks.

What's better is the venue (a working mens club), has agreed to let me carry on playing until 9.30pm at £40 an hour up until when their booked entertainment plays), which has only sweetened up the day for me :)

Anyway, a band is playing as well at some point in the afternoon, and I'm quite good friends with the guitarist, who is also good friends with the organiser. He's only 19ish, and his band have no PA, so have been asking me what they need to do. They have no money to rent, as they are doing this for free of course as well. I have said I don't have a mixing desk or drum kit mics (or all those XLR leads for that matter :p ), so am wondering what is best to say to them.

The only way I can see it going at the moment is the drum kit not being miked up at all (is that acoustic?), and then having all the guitars going through their amps and levelled up to the loudest the drums can play. I can then run the three vocal microphones through my normal mixer and run that through my PA system. Would this work - any alternatives available in setup? :confused:

Thanks for your help ;)
That's as good a way as any. Good luck.

[A1DL]

The only way I can see it going at the moment is the drum kit not being miked up at all (is that acoustic?), and then having all the guitars going through their amps and levelled up to the loudest the drums can play. I can then run the three vocal microphones through my normal mixer and run that through my PA system. Would this work - any alternatives available in setup? :confused:

Thanks for your help ;)

Hi Matthew

I'll answer this with a few assumptions - not knowing the size of the room, or the formation of the band. So let's assume it's an average sized working mens club with a small stage, the band is your normal vox/drums/guitar/bass/keys affair and you already have a half decent PA.

The drums are going to be the loudest thing going on in the room anyway - so I wouldn't worry about them not being miked up. Most guitar players play their amps stupidly loud on stage (even when asked/told to turn them down by the FOH tech) so provided their amps are facing FOH, in a small venue the stage sound will probably be sufficient.

So that just leaves you with keys & vox. You can either runs the keys through a DI box into a mic channel/s or there may be a stereo line level out.

I guess you'll be hiring the vocal mics as the band have no PA. If you've not worked with them before, play it safe and give them 58s. Not the best mic in the world but also not difficult to get a good sound out of, if you're unfamiliar with the vocalists. If there's female vocalists and you're feeling adventurous, you won't go wrong with an 87a for the girls (they may cost £2 more to hire but you won't regret it)

You've not mentioned monitors - as the band have no desk I guess they have no wedges? At the very minimum you'll need to put a couple of full range 12+1s on stage, although you obviously won't be able to select whom has what in their mix.

If you could stretch the budget to hiring a small desk, this would obviously give you a lot more flexibility as well as allowing you to insert some compression to protect your own PA.

Hope this helps - let us know how it goes.

Good luck.

Tony

[beaumont118]

I'll answer this with a few assumptions - not knowing the size of the room, or the formation of the band. So let's assume it's an average sized working mens club with a small stage, the band is your normal vox/drums/guitar/bass/keys affair and you already have a half decent PA.

Sorry for being a bit vague on points. It's actually quite a large room - I believe it's the biggest pub function room in the area (and we have quite a few pubs :p). I don't know about rough dimensions in my head, but it's rated capacity is around the 200 mark for a measure of size, but obviously it won't be that chocked, and some people will be outside with kids.

As for the band they've got drums, two guitarists, bassist and lead vox, but no keys (this would throw me right off so thank god!). For PA I was going to be bringing a pair of 500W bass bins and a couple of 250W tops - will this still be adequate against a drum kit and guitars/bass, even if not miked up?


I guess you'll be hiring the vocal mics as the band have no PA. If you've not worked with them before, play it safe and give them 58s. Not the best mic in the world but also not difficult to get a good sound out of, if you're unfamiliar with the vocalists. If there's female vocalists and you're feeling adventurous, you won't go wrong with an 87a for the girls (they may cost £2 more to hire but you won't regret it)

I'm a bit iffy with the mics - they want three, one for the guitarist, one for bassist and then lead. I've got two SM58s myself for speeches and things (as they're pretty hard-wearing, even against the inebriated ;) ), and I've got an Ashton DM100 for me, as it seems to pick up a lot of the highs in my voice - whereas some mics make me sound a bit grumbly. They might have a mic for practice - so fingers crossed it's a good one, then they don't have to use my Ashton ;)


You've not mentioned monitors - as the band have no desk I guess they have no wedges? At the very minimum you'll need to put a couple of full range 12+1s on stage, although you obviously won't be able to select whom has what in their mix.

That's because I forgot all about monitors! :eek: They don't, but I do have a couple of Soundlab (I know, boooo :cool: ), 15" 200W wedges. They sound a bit shaky if pushed too hard, but for just vocal foldback these should be fine I hope. I know compression is basically boosting all the frequency ranges that aren't loud, to the same volume as the loudest frequencies (getting rid of the dynamic range), so that overall it sounds louder, and doesn't have to be turned up as much. Can I do this without a mixing desk?

I'm going to be bringing a 31 band EQ with me - is there anyway I can sort out some compression with that? Also, what to do if feedback rears it's ugly head? And how should I level it all out so that it sounds as nice as possible? Which should be loudest out of the instruments, and how much louder should the vocals be? Thanks ever so much for your help :)

I don't usually have much to do with bands - can you tell? ;)

[DJMaxG]

So that just leaves you with keys & vox. You can either runs the keys through a DI box into a mic channel/s or there may be a stereo line level out.

Tony,
Can I ask what the DI Box does, does it convert the 1/4" Keyboard output signal into a balanced or digital format?

I have seen keyboards on stage before running into a box.

[A1DL]

For PA I was going to be bringing a pair of 500W bass bins and a couple of 250W tops - will this still be adequate against a drum kit and guitars/bass, even if not miked up?

When you say "adequate", I guess you mean for the vocal reinforcement. To answer your question, that all depends on how loud your speakers will play, which you haven't stated - and without knowing their efficiency at 1 watt/1 metre, I can't even calculate the theoretical SPL as a ballpark.



I'm a bit iffy with the mics - they want three, one for the guitarist, one for bassist and then lead. I've got two SM58s myself for speeches and things (as they're pretty hard-wearing, even against the inebriated ;) ), and I've got an Ashton DM100 for me, as it seems to pick up a lot of the highs in my voice - whereas some mics make me sound a bit grumbly. They might have a mic for practice - so fingers crossed it's a good one, then they don't have to use my Ashton ;)


I'm not familiar with an Ashton DM100, to be honest I'd never even heard of Ashton microphones. Beg, borrow, or for the sake of a fiver, why not just hire another 58?



That's because I forgot all about monitors! :eek: They don't, but I do have a couple of Soundlab (I know, boooo :cool: ), 15" 200W wedges. They sound a bit shaky if pushed too hard, but for just vocal foldback these should be fine I hope. I know compression is basically boosting all the frequency ranges that aren't loud, to the same volume as the loudest frequencies (getting rid of the dynamic range), so that overall it sounds louder, and doesn't have to be turned up as much. Can I do this without a mixing desk?

In this particular case, you can split the FOH signal for monitors - as you are only running the vox through your PA. I only suggested a compressor to protect your PA against overload (vocalists yelling down the mics or dropped mics)




I'm going to be bringing a 31 band EQ with me - is there anyway I can sort out some compression with that?


No




Also, what to do if feedback rears it's ugly head? And how should I level it all out so that it sounds as nice as possible?


Use the EQ as a last resort to notch out the offending frequency. Try tackling the problem at source first, i.e. turn the monitors down or alter their placement, explain to the talent how waving their mic in front of the mons is not a good idea.




Which should be loudest out of the instruments, and how much louder should the vocals be? Thanks ever so much for your help :)


200 capacity venue... the drums will be the loudest, even without any miking up. It's not about the vocals being louder, you want to achieve a good mix that sounds decent at FOH. You can only do that by ear (at FOH, not on stage).



Tony,
Can I ask what the DI Box does, does it convert the 1/4" Keyboard output signal into a balanced or digital format?

I have seen keyboards on stage before running into a box.

A DI box converts an unbalanced high impedance (line level) input signal into a balanced low impedance (mic level) output. DIs are always placed on stage so the unbalanced signal only travels a few metres into the DI, the balanced signal is then sent down the snake to the FOH desk, which may be say 30, 50 or 100 metres away. A DI usually has a paralleled unbalanced link output jack for guitarists to connect their stage amps.

The BSS AR-133 is the industry standard DI box, these are the DIs we carry on our hire inventory. As with most products nowadays, there are cheap and nasty lookalikes of the BSS, I'm told the advantage of them being you don't run the risk of musos nicking them after they've played...

[Dynamic Entertainment]

For ease...and in a moment of drunken clarity...i completely undertand Tony and all im going to say is....

LISTEN TO THE GUY :D :D

He knows exactly what hes on about...and saved me typing ;)

[DJMaxG]

A DI box converts an unbalanced high impedance (line level) input signal into a balanced low impedance (mic level) output

Great info :approve:

Do they take one keyboard/guitar, or multiples?
Max

[sleah]

Great info :approve:

Do they take one keyboard/guitar, or multiples?
Max

A single DI will take one instrument and send it down one channel.
You can get 2 or 4 in one box, but they still have independent ins and outs.
They also (usually) have things such as a ground lift switch, to help eliminate earth hums.

[Creature]

your a braver man than me - personally I wont risk it, ( but have done it on occasion for a very good frined who plays the mandolin, but we found feedback and echoing was a problem, this was cured buy putting his small 6 channel mixer into my mixer) as whos gonna pay for the repirs to blown speakers which is almost certainly will happen especially if the whole thing is not monitored correcty.

rememebr what works for disco doesnt always work for a band

[A1DL]

your a braver man than me - personally I wont risk it, ( but have done it on occasion for a very good frined who plays the mandolin, but we found feedback and echoing was a problem, this was cured buy putting his small 6 channel mixer into my mixer) as whos gonna pay for the repirs to blown speakers which is almost certainly will happen especially if the whole thing is not monitored correcty.


Because of the dynamic range of live music, the risk of blowing drivers are far less than when reinforcing a DJ playing heavily compressed dance music and redlining all night.



rememebr what works for disco doesnt always work for a band

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, suffice to stress the importance of using the right tools for the job in hand.