View Full Version : Mixing Desk, For Bigger Work.
DiscoTed
20-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Hello, I am looking at purchasing a mixing desk (maybe second hand or brand new)
Just asking if theirs anything i need to look out for when buying one, I,ll admit i have never used one, But i just want to buy one in just incase the need ever comes for one, I have seen the little mircophone mixers which plug into your mircophone socket, But tbh they dont cut the mustard for me :D
I guess they work like anyother mixer, but without a crossfader ?
Kind Regards Ted.
Hi Ted
Leaving your rationale for purchasing one aside for a moment, (which I'm struggling with), I assume you are talking about live mixers. I could write for hours about them, but I'll try to stick to the real basics for you, then you can come back with any specific questions.
The first big decisions you need to make are:
- Analogue or Digital (if you/regular users will be using it solely, digital will be cheaper as you won't also need racks of outboard processing)
- How many channels do you need (then add a few more as you will always need one more than you thought in a few months time)
- How many busses (sub groups) do you need
- How many aux's do you need (effects sends and mons from FOH)
A live mixer is a much more complex device than a DJ mixer, although the basic principle is the same in that both combine input signals to output stages. You are correct in stating a crossfader is a feature only found on DJ mixers, as you would not need one on a live desk.
Where a DJ mixer is essentially a single buss desk (many inputs to one output signal) a typical live desk may be 24+4:4:2 or 40+4:8:3. The first example means 24 mono channels plus 4 stereo channels routed to 4 sub groups routed to L&R masters. The latter example means 40 mono channels plus 4 stereo channels routed to eight sub groups routed to L,C & R masters.
Coming back to your rationale, if you are looking at providing a live sound offering, the desk is the cheap part. If you buy an analogue desk, you will spend 3 or 4 times the cost of the desk on outboard and at least the cost of the desk on mics and cables. If you have never used a desk and don't know if you'll need one, it sounds like you just want to play, in which case I suggest you'd be better to hire one for a weekend instead.
Hope this helps
Tony
DiscoTed
20-11-2009, 11:29 AM
Hi Ted
Leaving your rationale for purchasing one aside for a moment, (which I'm struggling with), I assume you are talking about live mixers. I could write for hours about them, but I'll try to stick to the real basics for you, then you can come back with any specific questions.
The first big decisions you need to make are:
- Analogue or Digital (if you/regular users will be using it solely, digital will be cheaper as you won't also need racks of outboard processing)
- How many channels do you need (then add a few more as you will always need one more than you thought in a few months time)
- How many busses (sub groups) do you need
- How many aux's do you need (effects sends and mons from FOH)
A live mixer is a much more complex device than a DJ mixer, although the basic principle is the same in that both combine input signals to output stages. You are correct in stating a crossfader is a feature only found on DJ mixers, as you would not need one on a live desk.
Where a DJ mixer is essentially a single buss desk (many inputs to one output signal) a typical live desk may be 24+4:4:2 or 40+4:8:3. The first example means 24 mono channels plus 4 stereo channels routed to 4 sub groups routed to L&R masters. The latter example means 40 mono channels plus 4 stereo channels routed to eight sub groups routed to L,C & R masters.
Coming back to your rationale, if you are looking at providing a live sound offering, the desk is the cheap part. If you buy an analogue desk, you will spend 3 or 4 times the cost of the desk on outboard and at least the cost of the desk on mics and cables. If you have never used a desk and don't know if you'll need one, it sounds like you just want to play, in which case I suggest you'd be better to hire one for a weekend instead.
Hope this helps
Tony
You make an interesting read :D , I would like to add mircophones and the rest, Just incase i get something which requires the use of 40 mircophones (OTT i know) :D
I have a Yamaha MG166cx (19" rack mount) which we use for the vocal work. Its a budget mixer but does the job we need as I am typically only ever running a single vocal artist or duo at most, but it could handle a small band.
It has onboard compression and effects which are suitable for vocal artist, but if you want to start doing real live stuff you are going to need to add outboard compression and effects as the desk is limited to what it can do.
No idea why you want one, but as a budget entry level desk its an ideal rack mount unit.
You make an interesting read :D , I would like to add mircophones and the rest, Just incase i get something which requires the use of 40 mircophones (OTT i know) :D
why not hire?
or better still, sub contract the work to a production company who know what they are doing. there's no point in you owning all that kit but not knowing how to use it.
but if you are insistent on buying - what's your budget, Ted?
DiscoTed
20-11-2009, 11:40 AM
why not hire?
or better still, sub contract the work to a production company who know what they are doing. there's no point in you owning all that kit but not knowing how to use it.
but if you are insistent on buying - what's your budget, Ted?
Am unsure of the budget :D
Am unsure of the budget :D
Well look at the Yamaha mg166cx and that gives you an idea of entry level gear. Then you can decide if its in budget.
I am waiting for Tony's views on that desk as he is the man on all things live sound.
Daryll
20-11-2009, 11:56 AM
I also use the Yamaha MG166cx , cant fault it for the price , plus Yamaha is a well regarded brand.
Daryll
I'm not familiar with that particular Yammy, however they are a good brand.
But until Ted decides on the four key factors I outlined in my first post in this thread, it seems pointless recommending particular desks.
Given the information to hand, I think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest in something that either won't be used or may well be the wrong tool for the job (when a job comes up). Hiring is you friend. Buying pro audio equipment is not a good investment unless you know you can sweat your assets. There's an age old saying - "How to make a million pounds in the pro audio industry.... start with two million".
Kernow
20-11-2009, 02:46 PM
I have a Samson MPL 2242, which is essentially a rebadged Mackie 1604.
The only times I use it are for live band mixing. This kind of equipment is rather expensive and doesn't really offer any advantages for DJ'ing. In fact it can make it unnecessarily complicated.
With many mic's and no professional FOH sound engineer you'll be creating a nightmare for yourself !! ;)
jamesh
20-11-2009, 09:20 PM
another fan of the yamaha desks... I have an Yamaha MG32 and love it... tends to do most things that get thrown at me... but then having 28 mono and 4 stereo channels it should do really... the built in effects are really handy too as cuts down on neded extra processors in the rack...
But as A1DL says until you know what you are looking for roughly how can people recomend the best for you...
Excalibur
21-11-2009, 07:53 AM
Well just to add my two pennorth, I bought this secondhand from a nice man in Reading, and it does everything I want, and often more besides. I stil haven't found out all it does. :o
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/PMH3000.aspx
Twinspin has the unpowered version, and would probably say something similar about it. Ploenty of effects, plenty of channels, all you'd need extra is a safety device for the PA (Tony's department ) and a handful of mics and cables. ( and a good ear, lots of time, etc etc. ) Budget end, but reliable enough if it's not living full time on the road. As Tony says, best bet is hire forst, or borrow from a mate, or best of all is go out and watch someone using one, help and learn that way.
Cowlinn
21-11-2009, 09:22 PM
If, for whatever reason you want to buy a live sound mixer but don't want to break the bank, i'd recommend one of these (http://www.hollywood-music.co.uk/products.php?product=Yamaha-MG102C-10-Channel-Mixer-)
Ted
Another point worthy of your consideration:
As already stated, desks come in many different shapes, sizes and configurations. The particular job will determine the desk required. It's daft to take a 32 channel desk if you only need four channels and similarly, a little 16 channel karaoke type desk with built in basic effects is going to be no use for any live band worth their salt.
BUT the one thing that remains constant on all jobs is microphones and cables. Therefore, if you have money burning a hole in your pocket and you insist on spending it rather than hiring kit if/when you get live work, I would recommend you invest in some decent mics and a few DIs instead of a desk. This will also reduce your hire costs as you can dry hire a desk quite cheaply and the hire co. will love you because they haven't got to sort you out a load of mics & cables, which is fiddly. If you are serious about this, buy decent quality industry standard mics - Shure (SM & Beta series), Sennheiser, Audix, AKG, Rode, etc. If buying off internet auction sites, be very careful - especially with Shure & Senny as there are more fakes out there than the real thing. Avoid budget "disco" brands too, as they're no use for live work. £1,500 will get you half a dozen decent dynamics, a couple of condensers,two or three DIs and some XLR cables.
Hope this helps
Tony
edit: hope that wasn't a total waste of time, as I've just seen Ted's been banned! Shame as he seemed to be keen and willing to learn. Never mind!
Booche
21-11-2009, 10:54 PM
Was going to comment on mics aswell but like A1DL mention Ted's banned :(
Happy Jack
22-11-2009, 01:40 AM
Shame as he seemed to be keen and willing to learn. Never mind!
While opinionated and a little forward, clearly someone with 'real world' experience and a genuine interest, trying to involve himself with the community. In the same breath, then, how is it that Max is allowed to continue to post the drivel he comes out with?
As far as the advice goes, Tony, can't fault that school of thought. Correct!
:approve:
StarZSoundS
22-11-2009, 08:28 AM
While opinionated and a little forward, clearly someone with 'real world' experience and a genuine interest, trying to involve himself with the community.
As far as the advice goes, Tony, can't fault that school of thought. Correct!
:approve:
Ted started a useful thread.Tony is clearly well informed on the subject of mixers.
I can't get over how cheap they are for what they do.....and how rarely they go wrong.....compared to amplifiers.Mine seems indestructible!!
I can't get over how cheap they are for what they do.....and how rarely they go wrong
a professional mixer is certainly not cheap and there is plenty to go wrong with them - and they do go wrong.
16 channel pub band/karaoke mixers don't count, nor does Behringer.
look at the prices for proper rider friendly mixers on Bob Kelly etc.
StarZSoundS
22-11-2009, 09:40 AM
a professional mixer is certainly not cheap and there is plenty to go wrong with them - and they do go wrong.
16 channel pub band/karaoke mixers don't count, nor does Behringer.
look at the prices for proper rider friendly mixers on Bob Kelly etc.
I am talking at my end of the market....Tony.Why don't Behringers count....I had one for years and it gave me no gip at all.
No what you're saying about high end mixers tho.I am resident DJ at this venue who have these tribute bands on (Essential Journey...Mercury...)I provide the back up.
I turn up with my trusty little Fujitsu Esprimo and I only need one channel.This has got 24....I get lost....:bang:
Why don't Behringers count
Because more than 90% of riders have the standard "No Behringer, Peavey or Mackie" clause plastered across them at regular intervals, both FOH and Mons.
And I'm not talking just international acts - decent regional acts will stipulate this. Basically any band that comes with its own engineer/s, where the sound company's job is to put the system in and babysit - their engineers will know exactly what they want. If the sound company is providing the engineers, then it is not as important to have industry standard gear, but that will become a problem if/when a visiting BE wants to jump on the desk and finds an OB rack littered with Behringer and Alto processors that he'll have never seen or used before, 15 mins before doors.
servoskull
22-11-2009, 12:35 PM
what's wrong with peavey? We use our 22 channel powered (but we use an external amp) mixer for a variety of things, most commonly, live artists. Works a treat, i didn't think the industry had a stigma against peavey. Obviously its kind of a lower market brand compared to others, but i never knew that engineers didn't enjoy using them. Our engineer seems happy enough.
what's wrong with peavey? We use our 22 channel powered (but we use an external amp) mixer for a variety of things, most commonly, live artists. Works a treat, i didn't think the industry had a stigma against peavey. Obviously its kind of a lower market brand compared to others, but i never knew that engineers didn't enjoy using them. Our engineer seems happy enough.
I did say;
If the sound company is providing the engineers, then it is not as important to have industry standard gear
For a pub band, WMC-circuit weekend warrior type gig where the musos bring their own PA in the back of their estate cars, I'm sure a powered peavey mixer is just the job.
Everything has its place in the food chain, Jarrod.
OllieJames
22-11-2009, 12:58 PM
On a bigger scale, I've used the Yamaha MC7L desk a few times which is nice. There's a smaller model as well, but I can't remember the model.
Excalibur
22-11-2009, 01:35 PM
I did say;
For a pub band, WMC-circuit weekend warrior type gig where the musos bring their own PA in the back of their estate cars, I'm sure a powered peavey mixer is just the job.
Everything has its place in the food chain, Jarrod.
You know Tony, if you weren't so well regarded and loved on here, you'd be in grave danger of being called a snob. ;) :D :D :D ( You I'm sure would say realist).
Was going to comment on mics aswell but like A1DL mention Ted's banned :(
Did I miss something?
Excalibur
22-11-2009, 01:39 PM
Did I miss something?
Dunno, but I sure did! Time for a quiet word with someone.
On a bigger scale, I've used the Yamaha MC7L desk a few times which is nice. There's a smaller model as well, but I can't remember the model.#
Lovely piece of kit, Olllie. By the way, it's M7CL;)
It's baby brother is the LS9
servoskull
22-11-2009, 01:59 PM
Ah yeah, sorry didn't see that.
We usually hire in for bigger gigs, and venues like the Birmingham Bar Academy and Wolvo Civic have their own desks (E.g 1 Alan and Heath GL 3300 24/8/2 8 aux 1 Yamaha 2 x 31 band graphic equaliser 1 Yamaha REV 7 1 Roland SDE 2000 4 Channels Klark Technik noise gates 4 Channels Beriger composer pro compressors), no need for us to hire in.
StarZSoundS
22-11-2009, 03:08 PM
Did I miss something?
They did WHAT to my BROTHER:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Cowlinn
22-11-2009, 07:46 PM
They did WHAT to my BROTHER:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Was he actually your brother?
OllieJames
22-11-2009, 07:50 PM
#
Lovely piece of kit, Olllie. By the way, it's M7CL;)
It's baby brother is the LS9
That's the one! Thought I'd got the 7 & the C the wrong way round haha :)
StarZSoundS
22-11-2009, 11:24 PM
Was he actually your brother?
Thanks for asking but no....i'm just held in the same respect...
In the style of James Cagney....
"You dirty brothers.....you killed my rat"
Like many others...didn't have a problem with Ted...
Jiggles
22-11-2009, 11:27 PM
#
Lovely piece of kit, Olllie. By the way, it's M7CL;)
It's baby brother is the LS9
Give me that desk. *Drools*
Corabar Steve
23-11-2009, 09:11 AM
Like many others...didn't have a problem with Ted...
& like many others, you don't know why he was banned.
Back on topic please.
Excalibur
23-11-2009, 05:05 PM
& like many others, you don't know why he was banned.
Back on topic please.
No, but now we're all eager to know. ;) :D :D :D :D Pitiful, isn't it? :D
No, but now we're all eager to know. ;) :D :D :D :D Pitiful, isn't it? :D
In the spirit of putting the Pennines back to the use they were intended - too much agreeing lately.
I'm not actually that bothered. When I posted something against the rules it was taken down a friendly note explaining why. I agreed, accepted it and apologised. So whatever it was it was not right.
Anyway Yammy Mixers are best and rock my world - at least until I can justify an Allen & Heath desk and then it will rock my world.
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