Health & safety checklist help

[rob1963]

Hi folks,

I've been emailed a health & safety checklist from a venue where I'm working next Summer, and it's the most detailed I've seen. I'm okay with most of it, but I could do with suggestions on how to answer the following questions.

Thanks in advance.

Please provide copies of your emergency systems/procedures appropriate to the event (fire risk analysis/first aid policy).
Comments:

How many first aiders will be available during the event. Please provide copies of certificates.
Number:
Comments:

[MagicMusic]

Please provide copies of your emergency systems/procedures appropriate to the event (fire risk analysis/first aid policy).
Comments:

Run like :Censored:


How many first aiders will be available during the event. Please provide copies of certificates.
Number:
Comments:[/B]

Who cares??? I'm off!!!


Seriously though, those questions are a bit strange. It seems you have been sent a generic list which happens to be particularly thorough.

In answer to the first i'd suggest that your procedure would be to shut off all power and head calmly for the nearest emergency exit.

I would say that the second question is none of your concern (unless you are a first aider) I'd recommend responding by saying that it is the responsibility of the event organiser to arrange first aid not you. Explain that for that reason you don't need to show them any certificates.

Odd.

[Vectis]

Just send a copy of your Method Statement ... that covers it, yes? ;)

[andyw]

i had a new bloke in work ask me what to do in an emergency at work, he didn't see the funny side when i said when you see me running try to keep up:eek:

[Corabar Steve]

What's the venue?

[rob1963]

What's the venue?

This is the venue: http://www.devere.co.uk/our-locations/branksome-place.html

The form is clearly a general one given to all people working in or hiring the venue. I've attached a copy of it below and in the next post, and all advice is still appreciated.

7062

[rob1963]

7063

The weird thing is that last Saturday I worked in a different De Vere venue, and they didn't even ask for my PAT or PLI!

:shrug:

[Corabar Entertainment]

One thing that leaps out at me Rob, is that form is for the CLIENT to certify - not for the contractor (ie you)! Therefore, are they asking if the organiser - ie your client - has arranged first aiders, etc? You are really only assisting your client to complete the appropriate sections of the form and supplying your relevant documents here.

...and I know why Steve was asking you about which venue it was: we had one a year or two back that was W-A-Y over the top (10x more than this one) but again it was generic but they wanted us to sign it unaltered and refused point blank to delete any of the clauses. All they kept saying was that, although they agreed that the majority of the clauses weren't applicable to us and they would never enforce the terms, they had to have our signature agreeing to the terms and could not delete any of them. In the end, we had to refuse the gig because if we had signed it, we could of ended up liable for all sorts costing thousands of pounds. (They may say they wouldn't enforce, but if we signed, we wouldn't have had a legal leg to stand on if they decided to enforce after all!)

[rob1963]

One thing that leaps out at me Rob, is that form is for the CLIENT to certify - not for the contractor (ie you)! Therefore, are they asking if the organiser - ie your client - has arranged first aiders, etc? You are really only assisting your client to complete the appropriate sections of the form and supplying your relevant documents here.


Hi Angela,

I know it looks like this form might be for the client to complete, but it's definately for me, as it came with the following email:

Hi,

I have been passed your contact details as I understand you are providing the DJ for the xxxxxx & xxxxxx wedding on xx xxx xxxx. In order for you to operate at Branksome, I need you to fill in the attached health & safety form, and return to me along with copies of your PAT certificates and the value of your liability insurance.

I would be grateful if you could return this to me in the next few weeks.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Kind Regards

xxxxx xxxxxx

I just find it strange that when I last worked at this venue they didn't even need my PLI or PAT certs, let alone give me any forms to fill in. I find it even stranger that when I did a wedding at a different De Vere venue last Saturday there was also no mention of PLI or PAT or any additional forms to fill in.

Presumably I just mark the bits about first aiders as N/A, although I'm not too sure how to answer the bit about emergency systems/procedures. It also asks me to define the equipment I'll be using for the event. Is this makes & models of everything, or something more general?

Any ideas?

:shrug:

[Corabar Steve]

I've worked in quite a few DeVere venues & have never even been asked for PAT or PLI, maybe it's a new thing, or they have venue specific rules.

[rob1963]

I've worked in quite a few DeVere venues & have never even been asked for PAT or PLI, maybe it's a new thing, or they have venue specific rules.

Yes, it must be a new (over the top) thing for this particular venue.

The most fussy venues I've come across before now have been Hilton Hotels, and all they require is copies of my PAT & PLI.


Presumably I just mark the bits about first aiders as N/A, although I'm not too sure how to answer the bit about emergency systems/procedures. It also asks me to define the equipment I'll be using for the event. Is this makes & models of everything, or something more general?

Any ideas?

:shrug:

Can anyone advise on these points please?

[StarZSoundS]

Hi folks,

I've been emailed a health & safety checklist from a venue where I'm working next Summer, and it's the most detailed I've seen. I'm okay with most of it, but I could do with suggestions on how to answer the following questions.

Thanks in advance.

Please provide copies of your emergency systems/procedures appropriate to the event (fire risk analysis/first aid policy).
Comments:

How many first aiders will be available during the event. Please provide copies of certificates.
Number:
Comments:

I wouldn't be too bothered about working there....its ridiculous.

Try and be flippant with it....Fire and Safety procedures.

"IN THE EVENT OF FIRE I WOULD EXPECT EVERYONE TO RUN AND SCREAM LIKE :Censored: LIKE THEY DID LAST WEEK WHEN MY RIG CAUGHT FIRE..."

Health and Safety Procedures....

"Didn't realise it was a prerequisite of attending the party that you have a first aid certificate.....could seriously affect the attendance "



If they come back and say "We think you are takin the :Censored: with this form"

You could say "You started it!!" :D :D :D


Do you really need that sort of work Rob??

[Corabar Steve]

FAF, but not really a good idea.

[wensleydale]

Why not just put "N/A" and see if you get a reply.
If so then talk them through it.

[MagicMusic]

I would suggest that you simply enter Not Applicable in the second field. Your contract is with the person who has booked you so any to and fro - ing between yourself and the venue should not jeopardise your booking.

With regards to health and safety, draw up a short list of procedures you would follow for example

1. Upon arrival check all entry and exit points to room.

2. Ensure set - up does not obscure any emergency exits.

3. Set - up in compliance with current HSE regulations as per terms of contract with event organiser.

4. In the event of emergency evacuation ensure all power is closed off and proceed calmly to the nearest emergency exit.


I can't see how they can argue with something like that?


EDIT:: I had a safety procedure document somewhere that covered set - up for large events like concerts. I'll see if I can find it because it seems like like it might be of use.

[CRAZY K]

Hi folks,

I've been emailed a health & safety checklist from a venue where I'm working next Summer, and it's the most detailed I've seen. I'm okay with most of it, but I could do with suggestions on how to answer the following questions.

Thanks in advance.

Please provide copies of your emergency systems/procedures appropriate to the event (fire risk analysis/first aid policy).
Comments:

How many first aiders will be available during the event. Please provide copies of certificates.
Number:
Comments:

Rob, first point--its Contracts you need to concentrate on.

YOU do not have a Contract with the venue.:confused:

These T and Cs apply to the CLIENTS Contract with the venue.

Dont waste your time.

The CLIENT is responsible for all this :Censored:

The client should fill in forms and comply with Tand Cs by asking YOU about the bits that are relevant to YOU which would only be PAT, PLI and maybe a H and S assessment--NOTHING ELSE.

Nothing else has to be done by YOU.

Its simple--I had the same thing last week with an Xmas Party--I sent my PLI. PAT to CLIENT and told them to e mail it to the venue.

The Rodeo Bull had done that as well---well not personally;)

The venues threats of checking my PLI and PAT before entering the building did not happen--:D :D :D

I do agree clients need a lot of EDUCATION in this area and thats where you can ADD VALUE to your service.;)

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

These T and Cs apply to the CLIENTS Contract with the venue.

Dont waste your time.

The CLIENT is responsible for all this :Censored:


Crazy,

If you look at the accompanying email I received (as quoted in post #9), it's clear that they need ME to complete it (to their satisfaction) before I'm allowed to play at the venue.

[Excalibur]

I just find it strange that when I last worked at this venue they didn't even need my PLI or PAT certs, let alone give me any forms to fill in. I find it even stranger that when I did a wedding at a different De Vere venue last Saturday there was also no mention of PLI or PAT or any additional forms to fill in.



Perhaps Sixty Quid Sid recently set it on fire with his dodgy gear, and didn'thave sufficient PLI cover to cope with the damage? :confused:

[Corabar Entertainment]

Hi Angela,

I know it looks like this form might be for the client to complete, but it's definately for me, as it came with the following email:

Hi,

I have been passed your contact details as I understand you are providing the DJ for the xxxxxx & xxxxxx wedding on xx xxx xxxx. In order for you to operate at Branksome, I need you to fill in the attached health & safety form, and return to me along with copies of your PAT certificates and the value of your liability insurance.

I would be grateful if you could return this to me in the next few weeks.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Kind Regards

xxxxx xxxxxx

I just find it strange that when I last worked at this venue they didn't even need my PLI or PAT certs, let alone give me any forms to fill in. I find it even stranger that when I did a wedding at a different De Vere venue last Saturday there was also no mention of PLI or PAT or any additional forms to fill in.

Presumably I just mark the bits about first aiders as N/A, although I'm not too sure how to answer the bit about emergency systems/procedures. It also asks me to define the equipment I'll be using for the event. Is this makes & models of everything, or something more general?

Any ideas?

:shrug:Well, all I can say is that their staff need some education as well (either that, or they need some new, and very different forms drawn up!). That form asks for the CLIENT's signature and so you can't sign it!

As for how to answer, KISS is my feeling. I think people have given you advice for most parts that are a bit odd, but on the point about whether they need a full list of kit in answer to that Q, why not just refer them to your PAT list?

[Excalibur]

Well, all I can say is that their staff need some education as well (either that, or they need some new, and very different forms drawn up!). That form asks for the CLIENT's signature and so you can't sign it!
As for how to answer, KISS is my feeling. I think people have given you advice for most parts that are a bit odd, but on the point about whether they need a full list of kit in answer to that Q, why not just refer them to your PAT list?

Angela, as a DJ of very little brain, I hesitate to contradict what you have posted, especially as I believe it is an area which you are familiar with. However, if I read this section correctly, they are asking the Client if they are having any of the activities detailed. If yes, then they have to first assess whether Jamesy with his loud music and 50% extra light show poses an unacceptable risk to the venue and guests, before deciding wheteher to allow him to perform.



" If you are carrying out any activities detailed in section B, De Vere Venues Group Health and Safety Manager will be required to assess the risk of the event along with the De Vere Venues Risk Brokers"

I take that to mean that they will contact any of the dangerous activity providers to ascertain that they are safe to be allowed into their venues.

PS: I said I was a DJ of very little brain. I tried to copy and paste the text for twenty minutes, and failed. I had to type it. :o :o :o Technology, grrrrr.

I remember back in the Good Old Days, when we just turned up, plugged in, and played. Ah, wasn't life simple then? :D :D :D :D :D

[CRAZY K]

Crazy,

If you look at the accompanying email I received (as quoted in post #9), it's clear that they need ME to complete it (to their satisfaction) before I'm allowed to play at the venue.

I need to shout here:eek: :eek: :eek:

Nothing new eh Steve;)

YOU ARE NOT THE CLIENT.

Please read Angelas very relevant post.

Get the Client to do the Donkey Work and EDUCATE THEM.

If you get the CLIENT to do their job it will be fine, talk about not letting you in the premises is the problem of the CLIENT NOT YOU.

Also heres a very important point--if the CLIENT gives the information and theres some problem then thats tough on the client.

The minute YOU start doing things DIRECT and theres a problem the CLIENT will wash their hands of the problem and leave YOU with the problem saying its your responsibility WHICH IT IS NOT.

TELL the client this is normal business practice--if they dont agree dont deal with them:eek:

Its a combination of laziness and ignorance on their part.

best wishes

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

On the subject of the client having to sign the form & me not being the client, what are you suggesting Crazy & Angela?

Are you saying I should fill in the form & send it back without signing it?

Are you saying I should fill in the form & then get the client to sign it (on my behalf in effect) & return it?

Or are you saying I should send the whole thing to the client & ask them to fill it in on my behalf before signing it themselves & returning it to the venue?

The email clearly asks ME (as the disco provider) to complete & return the form, so common sense suggests that there is an error on the form where it asks for the client signature, and it should just say signature, as it's pretty obvious that they intend ME to sign it.

I'm really confused now!

:shrug:

[Excalibur]

On the subject of the client having to sign the form & me not being the client, what are you suggesting Crazy & Angela?

Are you saying I should fill in the form & send it back without signing it?

Are you saying I should fill in the form & then get the client to sign it (on my behalf in effect) & return it?

Or are you saying I should send the whole thing to the client & ask them to fill it in on my behalf before signing it themselves & returning it to the venue?

The email clearly asks ME (as the disco provider) to complete & return the form, so common sense suggests that there is an error on the form where it asks for the client signature, and it should just say signature, as it's pretty obvious that they intend ME to sign it.

I'm really confused now!

:shrug:

Dunno about Crazy shouting, reckon I need to. As I said, it appears that the venue asks what they wish to have, and then the venue contacts them personally, hence why Rob is getting the Spanish Inquisition.

[rob1963]

Thanks for all the advice.

I will complete the form to the best of my ability using some of the advice given in this thread and will use N/A where I feel it's appropriate.

I'll then sign the form myself where it says "client signature" before returning it to the venue.

If there are any problems, they'll presumably get in touch with me.

:shrug:

[CRAZY K]

Thanks for all the advice.

I will complete the form to the best of my ability using some of the advice given in this thread and will use N/A where I feel it's appropriate.

I'll then sign the form myself where it says "client signature" before returning it to the venue.

If there are any problems, they'll presumably get in touch with me.

:shrug:

You are just going to cause yourself untold problems Rob.

If you read the form its obviously got to be completed by your client NOT YOU.

Just send it back blank to the customer, give them your PLI and PAT and point out the customer has to complete the form.

Thats why it says CUSTOMER/CLIENT SIGNATURE

:Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh:

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

Okay Crazy,

I've just replied to the email, pointed out that I'm not the client & therefore can't sign the form. I've suggested that I complete the form & return it with the signature part left blank.

I'll wait to hear from them before doing anything else...but I think I know what they'll say.

:shrug:

[Excalibur]

Okay Crazy,

I've just replied to the email, pointed out that I'm not the client & therefore can't sign the form. I've suggested that I complete the form & return it with the signature part left blank.

I'll wait to hear from them before doing anything else...but I think I know what they'll say.

:shrug:

I think they're saving trees, by using one form for two jobs. This one obviously is meant for the client, but it appears that they then send it to everybody concerned. (Or they sent Rob the wrong one).

Did you notice the Sound Limiter Rob, I thought you didn't work with them? :confused: :confused:

[rob1963]

Okay Crazy,

I've just replied to the email, pointed out that I'm not the client & therefore can't sign the form. I've suggested that I complete the form & return it with the signature part left blank.

I'll wait to hear from them before doing anything else...but I think I know what they'll say.

:shrug:


I think they're saving trees, by using one form for two jobs. This one obviously is meant for the client, but it appears that they then send it to everybody concerned. (Or they sent Rob the wrong one).


I've just had a reply to my query, and it is the one I was expecting.

They have asked ME to sign the form as they say the information requested relates to the DJ.

I now seem to have two options. Either I refuse to sign the form & tell the clients they'll need to find an alternative disco, or I complete AND sign the form as required by the venue.


Did you notice the Sound Limiter Rob, I thought you didn't work with them? :confused: :confused:

I've worked at this venue before, and not had any problems.

I only refuse to work in UNKNOWN venues with limiters.

[CRAZY K]

They have asked ME to sign the form as they say the information requested relates to the DJ.



Tosh!!!!

From a business point of view you would be very foolish to sign anything.

It may be held against you later in the event of trouble.

I agree with Peter, they sent you the wrong form or to the wrong person.

Signing it to keep them happy is not a wise decision and might even invalidate your insurance.:eek: :eek: :eek:

Anyway perhaps a multi op like Corabar/ Darren/ Tony could give us an opinion as to whether they would sign, I wouldnt dream of it in the circumstances.

Im only thinking of your best interests here,

regards

Alan

CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

Am I missing something here?
They are asking you to sign, fair enough, but the part you sign doesnt actually hold you to anything- just to say you have filled the form in.

What's the problem?
Put a scribble on it and get on out to your Quiz Mr James, but take care- it's mighty icy out there.

[Corabar Entertainment]

OK - This form is clearly designed for corporate events where the event co-ordinator within the client company would be overseeing the whole shebang - which is clearly not the case here.

You can only provide information in relation to the DJ/disco part of this event, and not the event as a whole.

I understand that you want to help the client out here, but I would strongly suggest that you do two things at the very least:-

1. That you write VERY clearly somewhere in the top section that you are completing this form as the contracted DJ of the venue's client and that your replies relate solely to the Disco / DJ aspect of the event and that you cannot certify any information in relation to the event as a whole, or in respect of any other activities taking place at the event and that your signature on this form is in no way intended to create a legally binding contract between you and the venue, and
2. That where it says 'Client Signature' at the bottom, that you change that to something along the lines of 'Signature of the DJ contracted by the Client'

[Excalibur]

OK - This form is clearly designed for corporate events where the event co-ordinator within the client company would be overseeing the whole shebang - which is clearly not the case here.

You can only provide information in relation to the DJ/disco part of this event, and not the event as a whole.

I understand that you want to help the client out here, but I would strongly suggest that you do two things at the very least:-

1. That you write VERY clearly somewhere in the top section that you are completing this form as the contracted DJ of the venue's client and that your replies relate solely to the Disco / DJ aspect of the event and that you cannot certify any information in relation to the event as a whole, or in respect of any other activities taking place at the event and that your signature on this form is in no way intended to create a legally binding contract between you and the venue, and
2. That where it says 'Client Signature' at the bottom, that you change that to something along the lines of 'Signature of the DJ contracted by the Client'

I myself personally would have bailed out long before it came to filling in such a convoluted, confusing, and mildly irritating form. Thankfully, young Jamesy is made of sterner stuff. Good luck on all counts mate, keep us posted re progress, this has all the hallmarks of an epic mini-series. :D

[CRAZY K]

[QUOTE=Excalibur;400068]convoluted, confusing, and mildly irritating form. QUOTE]

I think you just missed out the most important word Peter---


























IRRELEVANT Rob should not be filling in any forms---

CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

[QUOTE=Excalibur;400068]convoluted, confusing, and mildly irritating form. QUOTE]

I think you just missed out the most important word Peter---




IRRELEVANT Rob should not be filling in any forms---

CRAZY K

Why shouldnt he fill forms in? granted this is meant for the client but there are some things that Rob is probably better placed to give info on like PAT or PLI.

I dont see the issue with him doing the form, and signing it to if required, as it doesnt actually mean he is signing up to anything.

I dont understand why you would make something that could be relatively simple so complicated? Surely a bit of common sense could have sorted this out days ago?

[Corabar Entertainment]

By signing it as is, he is certifying to the venue that he is the person responsible and that the information contained is correct.

Devil's advocate scenario: suppose the client at the last minute decides to employ someone to do fireworks. They are not trained, licensed or qualified and holy hell breaks out, but start a show before the venue realise that this wasn't on their H&S form. The venue has Rob's signature on the dotted line stating that he is the responsible person for the event. Who do you think they are going to come to if there's any damages?

So long as he makes it clear that he is only certifying information as correct in respect of the disco, not as to the event as a whole, and not as a client of the venue, then it's just a simple case of helping the client out by providing the information direct and it's up to the venue to decide whether or not to 'approve' him. So long as the information provided is accurate, then there shouldn't be any further problem.

[wensleydale]

By signing it as is, he is certifying to the venue that he is the person responsible and that the information contained is correct.

Devil's advocate scenario: suppose the client at the last minute decides to employ someone to do fireworks. They are not trained, licensed or qualified and holy hell breaks out, but start a show before the venue realise that this wasn't on their H&S form. The venue has Rob's signature on the dotted line stating that he is the responsible person for the event. Who do you think they are going to come to if there's any damages?

So long as he makes it clear that he is only certifying information as correct in respect of the disco, not as to the event as a whole, and not as a client of the venue, then it's just a simple case of helping the client out by providing the information direct and it's up to the venue to decide whether or not to 'approve' him. So long as the information provided is accurate, then there shouldn't be any further problem.

I understand that, but does it say anywhere on the form "I certify that the above information is correct"?
I did also state in an earlier post that anything that is not applicable is marked as "N/A".
Just seems that this is going on and on and he could have had the form completed and returned last week.....

[rob1963]

Thanks for all the replies on this.

While I understand Angela's concerns about the possibility of the venue trying to hold ME responsible for problems caused by OTHER suppliers, this is one of those rare occasions where I completely agree with Mr Wensleydale, as I'm not actually signing up to anything or agreeing to anything by signing the form.

There are two reasons why I don't think they could hold ME responsible for problems caused by other suppliers. Firstly, although I will be putting my name as the "Responsible person", I'll also be describing my event activities as "Provide a mobile disco" which infers that THIS is what I'm responsible for, and nothing else.

Secondly, I have the venue's email in response to my enquiry which says "Please could you sign the form, as the information ALL relates to your DJ operation". In my opinion that couldn't be clearer.

If I start adding things to the form or deleting "clients signature" and changing it to something else, I'm liable to be refused authority to work at this venue, and I really don't want this to happen, as I've already spent a fair bit of time & money on this booking, including printing & sending a copy of my full music index, three hours of my time and a 70 mile round trip to meet the clients at the venue and also sending a number of emails in response to quite a few questions from the client.

I'll be completing the form today, marking N/A in the sections which don't apply to me, signing it where it asks for the client's signature and returning it to the venue with a copy of my PAT & PLI certificates.....and I'll be glad to see the back of this :Censored: form!

[Corabar Entertainment]

I give up :bang:

[rob1963]

I give up :bang:

Angela,

There's no need to bang your head!

I appreciate your advice & opinion, and can assure you I took these into account when making my decision.

:)

[StarZSoundS]

I'm liable to be refused authority to work at this venue, and I really don't want this to happen, as I've already spent a fair bit of time & money on this booking, including printing & sending a copy of my full music index, three hours of my time and a 70 mile round trip to meet the clients at the venue and also sending a number of emails in response to quite a few questions from the client.



Well...if that is corporate business for you then you are welcome to it:bang:
No wonder some of you charge £400 a night.

Before I was a Laptop DJ I occasionally let people flick through my CD'S...BUT....supply a full music index???What the :Censored: has it got to do with them anyway??If you were to have a meal at the hotel would you ask to go the farm where the potatoes come from???I'd have never received their ludicrous form ....cos that was the point I would have told them to:Censored: off......Show a bit of backbone man.:bang: :bang: :bang:

[rob1963]

Well...if that is corporate business for you then you are welcome to it:bang:
No wonder some of you charge £400 a night.:

Sadly they don't want a daytime set up for this one, so I'm only charging £375.

A daytime set up would have taken the price to £425.


Before I was a Laptop DJ I occasionally let people flick through my CD'S...BUT....supply a full music index???What the :Censored: has it got to do with them anyway??If you were to have a meal at the hotel would you ask to go the farm where the potatoes come from???I'd have never received their ludicrous form ....cos that was the point I would have told them to:Censored: off......Show a bit of backbone man.:bang: :bang: :bang:

Having discussed this on the forum a while back, I no longer offer the service of printing & sending my full music index. This was done back in the Summer, and it was the last client I did this for before changing my policy.

[CRAZY K]

I give up :bang:

Can I join your club Angela:D

:bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K

[rob1963]

Can I join your club Angela:D

:bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K

There's going to be a lot of sore heads at this rate!

Form completed, copied & put in envelope to be posted tomorrow.

:D

[Excalibur]

Thanks for all the replies on this.

While I understand Angela's concerns about the possibility of the venue trying to hold ME responsible for problems caused by OTHER suppliers, this is one of those rare occasions where I completely agree with Mr Wensleydale, as I'm not actually signing up to anything or agreeing to anything by signing the form.

There are two reasons why I don't think they could hold ME responsible for problems caused by other suppliers. Firstly, although I will be putting my name as the "Responsible person", I'll also be describing my event activities as "Provide a mobile disco" which infers that THIS is what I'm responsible for, and nothing else.

Secondly, I have the venue's email in response to my enquiry which says "Please could you sign the form, as the information ALL relates to your DJ operation". In my opinion that couldn't be clearer.

If I start adding things to the form or deleting "clients signature" and changing it to something else, I'm liable to be refused authority to work at this venue, and I really don't want this to happen, as I've already spent a fair bit of time & money on this booking, including printing & sending a copy of my full music index, three hours of my time and a 70 mile round trip to meet the clients at the venue and also sending a number of emails in response to quite a few questions from the client.

I'll be completing the form today, marking N/A in the sections which don't apply to me, signing it where it asks for the client's signature and returning it to the venue with a copy of my PAT & PLI certificates.....and I'll be glad to see the back of this :Censored: form!
Good luck. I still think they won't accept it.


I give up :bang:
I sympathise with your exasperation. I think the whole scenario is total confusion. I also completely share your fears about Rob putting his moniker on this form.


There's going to be a lot of sore heads at this rate!

Form completed, copied & put in envelope to be posted tomorrow.

:D

As before , good luck, please keep us posted, it's a gem is this one. I'd have walked away long ago, so praise due for tenacity. ( Or obstinacy, bloody mindedness, and perhaps foolhardiness).

[rob1963]

Good luck. I still think they won't accept it.


I think they will, because I've completed it and signed it as they requested.

However, they almost certainly would NOT have accepted it if I'd not signed it or crossed out & changed bits of it!


As before, good luck, please keep us posted, it's a gem is this one. I'd have walked away long ago, so praise due for tenacity. (or obstinacy, bloody mindedness, and perhaps foolhardiness).

I certainly will keep you posted, so if they contact me with any problems I'll update this thread.

As previously mentioned, under normal circumstances I would certainly have considered walking away, but I've already spent too much time & money on this booking for it all to go to waste.

Apart from that, I'd already accepted the booking & taken the deposit several weeks BEFORE this :Censored: form was emailed to me by the venue, and I wouldn't want to mess the client about, especially having met her to discuss what she wants.

[wensleydale]

I have every faith in our hero Mr James.
For what its worth I would have done the same as him and dont think its actually been that much of a trauma- or rather it neednt have been if he did what he has now done several days ago.

Hotels often send out things like this as standard but when you send them back and show willing but highlight that not everything is applicable they generally show some common sense.

Refusing point blank often just winds them up.

[Excalibur]

I have every faith in our hero Mr James.
For what its worth I would have done the same as him and dont think its actually been that much of a trauma- or rather it neednt have been if he did what he has now done several days ago.

Hotels often send out things like this as standard but when you send them back and show willing but highlight that not everything is applicable they generally show some common sense.

Refusing point blank often just winds them up.

As I'm sure many of us do. The man's a legend. And while I really hope it all goes well for him, the sceptic in me is worried that it may not. It's the confusion already generated by what ought to be the simplest of forms to fill in which worries me.

[rob1963]

I have every faith in our hero Mr James.


:o


For what its worth I would have done the same as him and dont think its actually been that much of a trauma- or rather it neednt have been if he did what he has now done several days ago.

Hotels often send out things like this as standard but when you send them back and show willing but highlight that not everything is applicable they generally show some common sense.

Refusing point blank often just winds them up.

Spot on Mr Wensleydale!

In the end it only took a few minutes to complete their form...certainly a lot less time than the discussion about it on this forum!


As I'm sure many of us do. The man's a legend.

Steady on...or my head won't fit out the door!


And while I really hope it all goes well for him, the sceptic in me is worried that it may not. It's the confusion already generated by what ought to be the simplest of forms to fill in which worries me.

I'm not sure why you expect problems when I completed the entire form as per their request and then signed it without making any amendments.

The only section I marked as N/A was the bit about first aiders, and I added the comment that I'm a self employed mobile DJ & don't employ first aiders.

I'll be extremely surprised if I hear from the venue again about this form.

[CRAZY K]

I think they will, because I've completed it and signed it as they requested.


Yeah but this is the blind leading the :Censored: blind scenario:eek:

:bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K
Member of Angelas exasperated head banging Club

[rob1963]

Yeah but this is the blind leading the :Censored: blind scenario:eek:


But aren't there more important things to worry about in life?




ROB JAMES
Member of "Why lose a booking for refusing to spend 2 minutes filling in a form" club

[Excalibur]

I'll be extremely surprised if I hear from the venue again about this form.
Your faith is truly touching. Misplaced, but touching. :D
Oh, sorry I missed a piece off the legend bit. :( :(
I should have said the man's a legend. ( in his own mind) :p :D :D


Yeah but this is the blind leading the :Censored: blind scenario:eek:

:bang: :bang: :bang:

CRAZY K
Member of Angelas exasperated head banging Club


But aren't there more important things to worry about in life?

ROB JAMES
Member of "Why lose a booking for refusing to spend 2 minutes filling in a form" club

I warned you.
Excalibur. Member of the " I've got better things to do than fill in confusing forms just to justify the existence of some self important clerk" club.

[CRAZY K]

I have every faith in our hero Mr James.
For what its worth I would have done the same as him and dont think its actually been that much of a trauma- or rather it neednt have been if he did what he has now done several days ago.

Hotels often send out things like this as standard but when you send them back and show willing but highlight that not everything is applicable they generally show some common sense.

Refusing point blank often just winds them up.

But then again why do you have PLI and why does it cost you money?

Because one day theres going to be a big nasty accident and you might just be unlucky enough to get implicated and sued--telling the judge you didnt understand the form you signed accidentally implicating yourself will be of no use.

I would rather wind up some person who clearly hasnt got a :Censored: ing clue what they are doing than risk my business, house, pension and life savings to some very clever smart bottom Lawyer on the Compensayshun gravy train.

Nuff said--you have been warned.

CRAZY K

[wensleydale]

But then again why do you have PLI and why does it cost you money?

Because one day theres going to be a big nasty accident and you might just be unlucky enough to get implicated and sued--telling the judge you didnt understand the form you signed accidentally implicating yourself will be of no use.

I would rather wind up some person who clearly hasnt got a :Censored: ing clue what they are doing than risk my business, house, pension and life savings to some very clever smart bottom Lawyer on the Compensayshun gravy train.

Nuff said--you have been warned.

CRAZY K

Lets agree to disagree.
I think you're wrong.
You think I'm wrong.

[Excalibur]

Lets agree to disagree.
I think you're wrong.
You think I'm wrong.

This has got to be one of the most eagerly awaited gigs Rob's ever done! :D :D :D

I'm not saying I'm right, but I really do share Alan's fears about litigation in such circumstances.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Like most things, it will only be an issue if something goes wrong, and hopefully, nothing will.

TBH, I saw nothing wrong with the request for the information provided. Nothing OTT in that IMO. (We've just signed some reasonable venue T&Cs on another gig, but it was clearly for US in respect of OUR practices http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/ 4/4_1_204.gif)

[rob1963]

If something goes wrong, I have my PLI, so as far as I'm concerned it's no different to any OTHER gig.

However, If something goes wrong with the services provided by someone ELSE at the same event, I can't see how I'm any more likely to be held responsible for that than if I'd NOT signed the form.

I'm sure ANY other people providing services at the function will also been given the same form to complete & sign in respect of THEIR business before being allowed to work there.

[CRAZY K]

If something goes wrong, I have my PLI, so as far as I'm concerned it's no different to any OTHER gig.

However, If something goes wrong with the services provided by someone ELSE at the same event, I can't see how I'm any more likely to be held responsible for that than if I'd NOT signed the form.

I'm sure ANY other people providing services at the function will also been given the same form to complete & sign in respect of THEIR business before being allowed to work there.

It might be decided by your PLI Insurer that by signing the wrong form you have compromised your Insurance Companies ability to defend a claim by assuming liability under Contractual terms:eek:

Ill leave Tony B from T Tiger who was (or is) in the Insurance business to pronounce a professional opinion.

This is an area equally as dangerous as dealing with live electricity.

:D :D :D

CRAZY K

[TonyB]

Well its a bit late now as the deed has been done.

Personally, I wouldn't have signed it. As previously mentioned, the form is clearly for the event/function organiser and not a service supplier.

If this is the only form that has been completed and the function goes ahead on the basis of the information contained therein, the signatory could be in a lot of trouble. The signatory has passed himself off as the event organiser which could be construed as misrepresentation. I really hope nothing does go wrong as the signatory could be in deep trouble if it does.

The client has passed the buck to the DJ to take responsibility and the venue are happy because they have got some mug to sign a form to say that they are. No wonder no one takes DJing serious as a profession!

With regards to the liability aspect, PLI will not cover liability assumed by a contractual agreement if that liability didn't exist without such agreement. Basically if you sign a document that makes you responsible for things that you wouldn't be responsible for if you hadn't signed it, then it is not covered.

The venue are wrong and it should have been brought to their attention why they are wrong instead of perpetuating the error.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Abso-bleedin-lutely! :thumbs_up:

[NKR]

Hi Angela,

I know it looks like this form might be for the client to complete, but it's definately for me, as it came with the following email:

Hi,

I have been passed your contact details as I understand you are providing the DJ for the xxxxxx & xxxxxx wedding on xx xxx xxxx. In order for you to operate at Branksome, I need you to fill in the attached health & safety form, and return to me along with copies of your PAT certificates and the value of your liability insurance.

I would be grateful if you could return this to me in the next few weeks.

Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

Kind Regards

xxxxx xxxxxx

I just find it strange that when I last worked at this venue they didn't even need my PLI or PAT certs, let alone give me any forms to fill in. I find it even stranger that when I did a wedding at a different De Vere venue last Saturday there was also no mention of PLI or PAT or any additional forms to fill in.

Presumably I just mark the bits about first aiders as N/A, although I'm not too sure how to answer the bit about emergency systems/procedures. It also asks me to define the equipment I'll be using for the event. Is this makes & models of everything, or something more general?

Any ideas?

:shrug:

Call me cynical, but if you ask me they want to put you off and use the house DJ who they get commission off.

That form is a joke and an attempt to either put you off or place all the liability for any problems on you.

Tell them here is my PAT and here is my PLI. Those are my legal requirements. The rest is your issue as its your venue. I will assist in whatever safety announcements need to be made and ensure I adhere to your safety code of conduct as required.

Kind Regards

[NKR]

I give up :bang:

Can't believe you are all arguing with a legal rep. Okay property legal rep but as with every professionally qualified industry everyone gets the basics.

Angela - I am with you. PAT, PLI, risk assessment for your part, everything else has nothing to do with you. First aiders - train your hotel staff as someone might have a heart attack before the DJ gets there. Heaven forbid he is the only first aider.

Absolute nonesense, but I bet the hotels lawyer could make you responsible. They are bloody good at that.

[rob1963]

The signatory has passed himself off as the event organiser which could be construed as misrepresentation. I really hope nothing does go wrong as the signatory could be in deep trouble if it does.


I disagree about passing myself as the event organiser and that it could be construed as misrepresentation.

I have an email from the wedding coordinator in answer to my query asking whether I should sign the form as I'm not the client. It says "Thanks for getting in touch, Please could you sign the form, as the information ALL relates to your DJ operation." That couldn't be clearer.

At the end of the day, I've done thousands of gigs with no problems over the last 25 years. In reality, the chances of something happening at this gig or of me being held accountable for something which is nothing to do with me are probably less than my chances of getting killed in a road accident...but I still drive every day!

[Excalibur]

I disagree about passing myself as the event organiser and that it could be construed as misrepresentation.

I have an email from the wedding coordinator in answer to my query asking whether I should sign the form as I'm not the client. It says "Thanks for getting in touch, Please could you sign the form, as the information ALL relates to your DJ operation." That couldn't be clearer.
!

Well tell the soft :Censored: that it should say so on the :Censored: form then. ;)

I've seen mud that was clearer mate.
And in all honesty and seriousness, I myself personally would not have signed that form, even if I lost the gig. I would never lay myself open to the possibility of litigation like that, by putting my name to something I'm not responsible for. Once that paper's signed, you've got no protection legally, I'd say.


( Excalibur Mobile Disco wishes to point out that he has np legal training, and any losses incurred as a result of following his advice are just tough. )
Hope it all goes well.

[rob1963]

Well tell the soft :Censored: that it should say so on the :Censored: form then. ;)

I've seen mud that was clearer mate.
And in all honesty and seriousness, I myself personally would not have signed that form, even if I lost the gig. I would never lay myself open to the possibility of litigation like that, by putting my name to something I'm not responsible for. Once that paper's signed, you've got no protection legally, I'd say.


( Excalibur Mobile Disco wishes to point out that he has np legal training, and any losses incurred as a result of following his advice are just tough. )
Hope it all goes well.

Fear not, my learned friend.

I could probably make a good case for the whole form being invalid & worthless, for the simple reason that it hasn't been signed by the client as instructed!

:shrug:

[Corabar Entertainment]

Unless, of course, the counter-argument wins - namely: by singning as 'client' you have created a contractual relationship between you and the venue.

[Excalibur]

Unless, of course, the counter-argument wins - namely: by singning as 'client' you have created a contractual relationship between you and the venue.

I do so hope you meant "Signing". The thought of Jamesy singing for his supper has just put me off mine. :(

I like this thread, it's got legs. Should last well into New Year. When's the gig Jamesy, I can't wait. :D

[Corabar Entertainment]

I do so hope you meant "Signing". The thought of Jamesy singing for his supper has just put me off mine. :( Oopps! :p

[rob1963]

The thought of Jamesy singing for his supper has just put me off mine.

Indeed.

There are plenty of things I'm crap at...and singing is definately one of them!


I like this thread, it's got legs.

I like this thread too...because I've always been a leg man ;)


Should last well into New Year. When's the gig Jamesy, I can't wait. :D

Sadly it's not until May...so you have rather a long wait, Peter :(

[Excalibur]

Sadly it's not until May...so you have rather a long wait, Peter :(

As long as you keep telling us when the client/venue/explosives arranger semds another form for you to fill in, because you haven't done the previous one right, I'm sure we'll have plenty to keep us interested till May. :D

[rob1963]

As long as you keep telling us when the client/venue/explosives arranger semds another form for you to fill in, because you haven't done the previous one right, I'm sure we'll have plenty to keep us interested till May. :D

Lol!

I'm glad the booking isn't until May, as it means I still have nearly 5 months before I'm held accountable for something which is nothing to do with me, before my PLI is invalidated, before I get sued & before I'm bankrupted resulting in the loss of my business & my home.

:D

[soundtracker]

Lol!

before I'm held accountable for something which is nothing to do with me,

or wasn't until you signed up for it! :p

[rob1963]

or wasn't until you signed up for it! :p

I signed up for nothing!

There was no declaration, agreement or undertaking on the form whatsoever!

:D

[Corabar Entertainment]

I signed up for nothing!You just keep saying that to yourself Rob and you'll be fine :p

[rob1963]

You just keep saying that to yourself Rob and you'll be fine :p

I will, Angela.

I've always been an optimistic kind of guy!

:D :D :D

[soundtracker]

I signed up for nothing!

There was no declaration, agreement or undertaking on the form whatsoever!

:D

If you signed up for nothing, why would you sign at all? If you sign, you always sign with some purpose surely? I'm sure that in my banking days I was always told, don't sign anything until you fully understand what you are signing!

[rob1963]

If you signed up for nothing, why would you sign at all?

Because the venue required me to do so before being allowed to work there, and for some strange reason I didn't want to let my client down.


If you sign, you always sign with some purpose surely?

The purpose of signing this form was to confirm that I'd filled in the information about the disco I am providing there.


I'm sure that in my banking days I was always told, don't sign anything until you fully understand what you are signing!

And I've always been told not to sign anything without reading the small print...but this form has NO small print!

[Excalibur]

If you signed up for nothing, why would you sign at all? If you sign, you always sign with some purpose surely? I'm sure that in my banking days I was always told, don't sign anything until you fully understand what you are signing!
Can't argue with that. ;)


And I've always been told not to sign anything without reading the small print...but this form has NO small print!

Doesn't need any. It's confusing enough without. :D

[rob1963]

Doesn't need any. It's confusing enough without. :D

It wasn't confusing...or I wouldn't have filled it in & signed it!

:D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

It wasn't confusing...or I wouldn't have filled it in & signed it!

:D

Hence the 8 page thread on here...

[rob1963]

It wasn't confusing...or I wouldn't have filled it in & signed it!

:D


Hence the 8 page thread on here...

To be honest I could have filled it in myself without starting this thread, but as I've never seen a form like this before I thought I would make sense to get people's opinions first.

The fact that it's gone on for 8 pages shows there are lots of different opinions and that people are interested enough to respond and discuss it, which is presumably a good thing.

So Darren, what would YOU have done? With the number of functions you cover, you must have seen all sorts of forms.

[Excalibur]

Hence the 8 page thread on here...
:D :D :D

To be honest I could have filled it in myself without starting this thread, but as I've never seen a form like this before I thought I would make sense to get people's opinions first.

The fact that it's gone on for 8 pages shows there are lots of different opinions and that people are interested enough to respond and discuss it, which is presumably a good thing.

So Darren, what would YOU have done? With the number of functions you cover, you must have seen all sorts of forms.

Well I'd never have signed a form which called me a client, rather than service provider. ;)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

So Darren, what would YOU have done? With the number of functions you cover, you must have seen all sorts of forms.

I would have sent them everything I have, H&S policy, risk assesment, method statement etc etc and put N/A on everything that didn't concern me.