Changing Connectors To Speakons From Binding Posts

[DJ INDIE]

Hi all,

I have just bought some Martin 10" subs intended for a small PA and they have red and black binding posts connections only.

As i intend to use them 'on the road' and because I already have a lot of speakon cables, I'd like to use speakon connectors.


How easy is it to chang the binding posts to speakons? and what would I need (sounds daft, but just checking) and where could I get it from?



thanks in advance.

[A1DL]

The easiest solution is to use a short jumper, tails to NL4 with an NL4MMX connected & left on the back of the box.

[nisfo]

A1DL has the quick solution.

It would be easier to add a 3/4 inch jack socket. But again it would mean removing a Speakon plug on the leads.

I'd keep binding posts too
If you really want to fit speakon sockets. Attempt at your own risk ;)
http://www.terralec.co.uk/audio_connectors/4_way_neutrik_speakon_socket/16630_p.html
Using a 25mm blade cutter (messy approach, so you may want to use a pipe cutter instead)

Then follow >> http://www.buyspeakercable.com/info_wiring_speakon_connector.shtml
for wiring.

[nisfo]

A1DL has the quick solution.

It would be easier to add a 3/4 inch jack socket. But again it would mean removing a Speakon plug on the leads.

I'd keep binding posts too
If you really want to fit speakon sockets. Attempt at your own risk ;)
http://www.terralec.co.uk/audio_connectors/4_way_neutrik_speakon_socket/16630_p.html
Using a 25mm blade cutter (messy approach, so you may want to use a pipe cutter instead)

Then follow >> http://www.buyspeakercable.com/info_wiring_speakon_connector.shtml
for wiring.

Whoops, I'll correct it before some one spots it....lol

It's meant to be 1/4 inch :bang: :bang: :bang:

[christoph]

Its dead easy mate.

Just make sure you buy 4 pole sockets, I know you only need two pole, but your current speaker cables won't fit two pole sockets!

Drill the sockets in next to the existing terminals and wire them up internally in parallel. Then you have two sets of inputs and can use either. 10 min job.

Oh, and jack inputs for bass? Are you having a laugh?

And as for keeping binding posts, thats not an option. Who wants to be messing with phase issues on their bass bins in the dark at a gig. Or worse still, shorting the terminals and destroying your amp.


Crack on with the speakons my friend, you are on the right path.

[A1DL]

And as for keeping binding posts, thats not an option

Of course it is an option. The solution I posted in #2 retains the binding posts.

Also, I'm sure the job you have described below would take more than 10 minutes.

[christoph]

Bring it to my house and I'll do it in 7 minutes.

Sub out. 1 min
Drill two holes for nutrik sockets, 1 min
Solder wire onto the back of binding posts 4 mins (taking my time here ;) )
Sub in 1 min.

Whats hard about that?

Obviously you'd want to take a bit more time than that, seal the sockets in etc....but this really is a very, very easy job.

Binding posts have no place in any mobile sounds system. Its just a matter of time until..............pop!

Plus, why make life hard for yourself when on the road?

In fact, you can shave some more time off that can't you. Its a sub, so only one connector needed!

Simples

[A1DL]

Binding posts have no place in any mobile sounds system.

Dismisssing binding posts as having "no place" is ridiculous. What about professional power amplifiers such as Crown Macrotech, where binding posts are standard?

Admittedly, one normally wires them into a patchbay in the rack, but it is also common to see them used with short jumpers.



Its a sub, so only one connector needed!


So how do you link to the second sub, if there's only one socket? Any PA speaker with just one socket is ridiculous.

[christoph]

Dismisssing binding posts as having "no place" is ridiculous. What about professional power amplifiers such as Crown Macrotech, where binding posts are standard?

I've never seen one of these unracked. They have binding posts to make it easy to patch, so you can get the correct impedence. Its not for wiring your speakers directly into.



Admittedly, one normally wires them into a patchbay in the rack, but it is also common to see them used with short jumpers.

At best jumpes are a poor compromise. Why would you want them hanging off your sub box? Much better wire it up inside the box.


So how do you link to the second sub, if there's only one socket? Any PA speaker with just one socket is ridiculous.

Fair enough, fit two then if this is an issue. All my custom bins only have one fitted and each has their own output on the patch panel. I don't want some numpty dasiy chaining them all togther incorrectly when they are out on hire and blowing the amps.


This means longer cable runs, but its worth it for my application.

[A1DL]

I've never seen one of these unracked. They have binding posts to make it easy to patch, so you can get the correct impedence. Its not for wiring your speakers directly into.

So there is a place in the industry for binding posts. Good to see you've understood my post. You've probably not seen as many macros as I have then, if you have never seen one unracked, or should I say racked, but not patched. Who mentioned impedance? :confused:



At best jumpes are a poor compromise. Why would you want them hanging off your sub box?

In my last post I was talking about short jumpers off the back of a VZ rather than a cab. Call them a poor compromise if you like, but I'd say you're a much poorer tech if you haven't got some in your trunk, for those "just in case" moments that experience tells you will happen.


Fair enough, fit two then if this is an issue. All my custom bins only have one fitted and each has their own output on the patch panel. I don't want some numpty dasiy chaining them all togther incorrectly when they are out on hire and blowing the amps.
This means longer cable runs, but its worth it for my application.

Two NL4s/NL8s/EP5s/whatever is industry standard, worldwide, on all PA cabs. By "custom" I'm guessing you may mean homebrew. Although to be honest I can't recall ever seeing a homebrew box with only one connector.


This means longer cable runs, but its worth it for my application.

Use NL8/soca & breakout boxes. Why make life harder for yourself when on the road?

[DJ INDIE]

Tony,

Im using a Crown Powertech 3 - this has only binding post outputs.

Without sounding dim :) , could you spell out (for a relative novice) the job.


Ive found the couplers but they dont really show me the connection end wiring, just the other end (ready made speakon).

ie
am I to remove the binding post section and wire to the couipler or do the couplers wire straight to the binding posts.


sorry to be a pain, but if its spelt out to me i'll easy suss what i need to do and go about getting the equipment.


or if i was to fit speakon connectors as a direct replacement for binding posts - would it just be a case of removing the binding posts and using that wire to connect to the new speakon sockets?



and finally, I am using the Crown to power 2 subs from one side (and tops from the other using a crossover in mono. what would you suggest is the best method - is this more adaptable because i have binding posts?

ie could i power 2 subs from one sides posts? 2 red / 2 black - each one going to a separate sub?

or is the 1 output to 1 sub, then daisy chain to the other the best option?


if you could simplify exactly what id need to do it would be much appreciated.


cheers.

[nisfo]

Oh, and jack inputs for bass? Are you having a laugh?
Well I ain't :Censored: laughing. Your no comedian!!


And as for keeping binding posts, thats not an option. Who wants to be messing with phase issues on their bass bins in the dark at a gig. Or worse still, shorting the terminals and destroying your amp.


Take it you have never heard of banana plugs then. Shorting terminals wouldn't be an issue.:bang: :bang:

[christoph]

Two NL4s/NL8s/EP5s/whatever is industry standard, worldwide, on all PA cabs. By "custom" I'm guessing you may mean homebrew. Although to be honest I can't recall ever seeing a homebrew box with only one connector.

Yeah sorry I'm talking about my cabs, that I built. Staiper microscoops. Just put one connector on each. I don't need breakout boxes due to only using a stack of four run off two amps. Very easy for even dubstep numptys to plug in when they are labled 'sub 1' and the amps rack says 'output to sub 1'. :)

[A1DL]

Tony,

Im using a Crown Powertech 3 - this has only binding post outputs.



Andy, put a 2U panel on the back of your amp case with two recessed Neutrik Speakon NL4 sockets on. For each channel come off the red/+ binding post into 1+ on the NL4 panel socket and off the black/- binding post into 1- on the panel socket. For a simple, single amplifier setup, leave 2+ and 2- on the panel socket with nothing connected. This will give you the equivalent of if the amplifier were fitted with Neutrik NL4 sockets.

Don't try to modify the amplifier.

At the speaker end, the easiest way is as I outlined in post #2. Using the same wiring convention as above, make a short jumper which you can leave attached to the speaker, and add an NL4MMX adaptor. Then you can use any "normal" 2 or 4-core speaker cables between the NL4 output on your panel on the back of the amp case and the speaker.





I am using the Crown to power 2 subs from one side (and tops from the other using a crossover in mono. what would you suggest is the best method - is this more adaptable because i have binding posts?

ie could i power 2 subs from one sides posts? 2 red / 2 black - each one going to a separate sub?

or is the 1 output to 1 sub, then daisy chain to the other the best option?


if you could simplify exactly what id need to do it would be much appreciated.


cheers.

keeping it as simple as possible (I guess you're using 2-core speaker cables), daisychaining two 8ohm boxes will present a 4ohm load to the amplifier, which is probably the most power efficient way of operating. Nothing wrong with running subs of one channel and mid highs off another - a 2-channel amplifier is essentially two independent amplifiers in one chassis.

Hope this helps

Tony


Yeah sorry I'm talking about my cabs, that I built. Staiper microscoops. Just put one connector on each. I don't need breakout boxes due to only using a stack of four run off two amps. Very easy for even dubstep numptys to plug in when they are labled 'sub 1' and the amps rack says 'output to sub 1'. :)

As you are running four separate boxes off four channels of amplification, an 8-core cable with a breakout box would mean you could run one thick cable 20metres rather than 4 thinner cables 80 metres.

The Dubstep brigade... as I mentioned on the SP forum recently, I'd rather these zit-faced cokeheads didn't get to connect any amps to their stacks to be honest, so whatever you can do to make it more difficult for them, the better. :) Dreadful bloody racket, why can't they grow up and listen to some 70s & 80s?

[Excalibur]

As Tony said, don't touch the amp.
Plate CPC shown, Maplins also do them. You can use one for the amp connections, and one on each cab.

http://cpc.farnell.com/_/cp-5-sw/connection-plate-2xspeakon-black/dp/LS00559?crosssellid=LS00559&crosssell=true&in_merch=true&

Sockets
http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nl4mp/4-pole-speakon-socket-faston/dp/AV09132?crosssellid=AV09132&crosssell=true&in_merch=true&
Don't forget the screws, 3mm countersunk from memory. Maybe 4mm, I forget.

[christoph]

Quick shot of the back of my small rig patch panel, 2 tops 2 subs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/kachris/03102009195.jpg

Made from a wooden batton painted black.

Even dubsteppers cant mess that up. lol

[A1DL]

Even dubsteppers cant mess that up. lol

For starters, I'd replace that IEC320 inlet with a Powercon A inlet.
The benefit being the powercon latches in situe, whereas a 320 cordset can easily get pulled out.

[NKR]

YEAH - just latched onto this.

Its like robot wars with Speakons and binding posts.

Round 2 - Lets go. ;) :p :D :beer1:

[christoph]

Good suggestion. Reason for iec is the fact that everyone has a billion iec cables knocking about. If I went for a powercon then I'd have remember to take one! Max draw off those amps is less than 10A too so I thought it'd be ok.

I'm building a new bass only rack now, think I might put a powercon on that as it'll only be me using it

[Excalibur]

Good suggestion. Reason for iec is the fact that everyone has a billion iec cables knocking about. If I went for a powercon then I'd have remember to take one! Max draw off those amps is less than 10A too so I thought it'd be ok.

I'm building a new bass only rack now, think I might put a powercon on that as it'll only be me using it

Yup. It may not be the best, but it's the most common. ;) :D
If I used any powercons, I'd be worried someone would try to plug a Speakon into it! :D

[DJ INDIE]

cheers for your help fellas - im now (fairly) confident that i know what to do (thanks for spelling it out - it really is a big help), and even more surprising (or worrying :) ) that was what id thought I might need to do (the theory side - wasnt sure with the actual wiring) - thanks for clarifying and the links.

hopefully be able to do this at the weekend. CPCs not that far away and now the snows cleared I can get the tools back out!

[christoph]

Lol

[A1DL]

I'm building a new bass only rack now, think I might put a powercon on that as it'll only be me using it

surely a 32a ceeform inlet would be more suitable for a rack of amps on LF duty?

you're not going to make much bad gurl bass with just a 16a feed ;)

[Excalibur]

surely a 32a ceeform inlet would be more suitable for a rack of amps on LF duty?

you're not going to make much bad gurl bass with just a 16a feed ;)

32? :confused: :eek: :eek: That's for wimps. :p :D :D

[DJ INDIE]

Andy, put a 2U panel on the back of your amp case with two recessed Neutrik Speakon NL4 sockets on. For each channel come off the red/+ binding post into 1+ on the NL4 panel socket and off the black/- binding post into 1- on the panel socket. For a simple, single amplifier setup, leave 2+ and 2- on the panel socket with nothing connected. This will give you the equivalent of if the amplifier were fitted with Neutrik NL4 sockets.

could i put 4 sockets on instead of 2?

2 for tops - running from output A
2 for subs - running from output B

ie 2 red wires from each red binding post - 1 to one socket one to the other
and 2 black wires from each black binding post - 1 to one socket one to the other - creating in effect 4 sockets


then i mark them - SUB1, SUB2, TOP1, TOP2?


and what ohm resistance would this produce? 4ohm, 8ohm or 16ohm?



as the subs only have 1 input - 1 red, 1 black - im unsure how to daisy chain - ie 1 speakon input and one output) will the above solution do it?

[christoph]

Yes you can. And 4 ohm per channel is the result. (If your speakers are 8 ohm each)

Why are you running in mono though mate. If you are going to this trouble I'd drop say £200 on another amp and active crossover for mucho improved SQ, and backup in the event of amp failiure.


surely a 32a ceeform inlet would be more suitable for a rack of amps on LF duty?

you're not going to make much bad gurl bass with just a 16a feed

and what do I do when the village hall only has a standard 3 pin wall socket?

[DJ INDIE]

thanks - just making sure - but thats exactly what I wanted to hear.

I doing mono via an active crossover as it is for a compact (but powerful (for mobile djing anyway)) rig.

therefore I am running around 700w a side off one amp - which is plenty for what I need.


I will take a spare amp as backup, but having 2 amps and all my other gear (mixers/playout backup/pre wired cables etc etc) in one rack would be so heavy for mobile work, it would just be painful!

[A1DL]

and what do I do when the village hall only has a standard 3 pin wall socket?

either;

(a) why would you need your dedicated LF rack for this application?

or

(b) use a 13a BS1363 plugtop to 32a IEC309 SPNE (cee) socket short jumper, on the basis your power draw will be reduced.

[christoph]

(a) why would you need your dedicated LF rack for this application?

Its a main wedding venue of ours and its a big room. A stack of four subs is about right. 13a hook up only.



(b) use a 13a BS1363 plugtop to 32a IEC309 SPNE (cee) socket short jumper, on the basis your power draw will be reduced.

Now thats a good idea. Might even make the patch panel with both IEC 13a and IEC 32a SPNE sockets.

[christoph]

I will take a spare amp as backup, but having 2 amps and all my other gear (mixers/playout backup/pre wired cables etc etc) in one rack would be so heavy for mobile work, it would just be painful!

It makes even more sense to rack them togther then and reep the SQ rewards.

Just whack a 6 u case on some castors. Mine is a one man lift, just. Then wheel it in.

[A1DL]

Might even make the patch panel with both IEC 13a and IEC 32a SPNE sockets.

The two words highlighted in red are scary.

You must use a ceeform or IEC320 INLET (with male connectors) on a rack, NOT a socket under any circumstances, as you would have to use a 'plug to plug' configured lead (commonly known a 'widowmaker') to supply a socket.

And don't even contemplate wiring different types of inlets together either, to give yourself a multiple choice when you get to a venue, as this will lead to exposed pins on the inlet not being used and (depending on how wired) may cause the lower current rated cable and connector to become overloaded. The only safe way to manage multiple supplies is by use of a changeover switch, which is outside the scope of what you're doing.

[Gareth]

The two words highlighted in red are scary.

You must use a ceeform or IEC320 INLET (with male connectors) on a rack, NOT a socket under any circumstances, as you would have to use a 'plug to plug' configured lead (commonly known a 'widowmaker') to supply a socket.

And don't even contemplate wiring different types of inlets together either, to give yourself a multiple choice when you get to a venue, as this will lead to exposed pins on the inlet not being used and (depending on how wired) may cause the lower current rated cable and connector to become overloaded. The only safe way to manage multiple supplies is by use of a changeover switch, which is outside the scope of what you're doing.

Sorry to butt in but I must say I have read through the whole of this thread and your knowledge is inspiring! Although I feel I have no idea it still amazes and interests me!

- Gareth

[A1DL]

:beer1:
Sorry to butt in but I must say I have read through the whole of this thread and your knowledge is inspiring! Although I feel I have no idea it still amazes and interests me!

- Gareth

Thanks for the compliment matey. If I can help or say something to encourage safety, I'll always speak up.
But there's plenty of areas where my knowledge is not so great - then I just shut up & read (& often still don't understand... especially if it involves computers!!)

Tony

[christoph]

Well I was going to fit a selctor switch. Click up for 32a, down for 13a. I wouldn't have just wired them in 'always on' parallel! All my stuff passes PAT though, so don't worry I'm not going to kill anyone. :)

Might just be easier to fit a 32a input and use an adapter though. I need to make sure I can run it off both sources somehow.

Anyone know a decent rack mount digital ammeter too. I use maplins ones at the mo that plug into the wall socket, but I'd like to put one in the new rack itself.

[A1DL]

Well I was going to fit a selctor switch. Click up for 32a, down for 13a. I wouldn't have just wired them in 'always on' parallel! All my stuff passes PAT though, so don't worry I'm not going to kill anyone. :)


A two position selector switch cannot safely be used as an AC changeover switch.

The most important characteristic of an AC changeover switch is its isolation capability. The picture below should explain.
http://www.electrical-res.com/EX/10-20-22/446256_Change_Over_Switch.jpg

[christoph]

Yeah thats the sort of thing I'd be looking at, about £80 quid. Probably worth it.

[sleah]

I have to say it scares me a little that there's evidently people taking on the road amp racks capable of pulling in excess of 6KW (hence the 32a connectors) who are mulling over how to get power in to them....:eek:

FFS get some professional local expert help!
Someone's going to get killed or catch fire with some of the ideas mentioned on here....:(

Sorry if I've read it wrong, but it's the impression I'm getting from some of the posts.

Simon

[A1DL]

I have to say it scares me a little that there's evidently people taking on the road amp racks capable of pulling in excess of 6KW (hence the 32a connectors) who are mulling over how to get power in to them....:eek:

FFS get some professional local expert help!
Someone's going to get killed or catch fire with some of the ideas mentioned on here....:(

Sorry if I've read it wrong, but it's the impression I'm getting from some of the posts.

Simon


I agree with you Simon and it is worth stressing to Christop & others whom may be contemplating doing similar, that when it comes to electricity, help and advice received on internet forums should be taken as a guide and is not a licence to carry out work yourself or a substitute for having the work carried out/ checked by a competent person.

Often when answering these topics, I find there is a fine balance between (a) pointing out the errors & omissions in someones's ideas & describing how the job is done within the pro audio world, and simply replying with "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it", which can be perceived as arrogant.

[christoph]

Lol, well I've not killed anyone yet and I've been building my own gear for two years. Had a few raised eyebrows at PAT testing mind you, and I've had to change bits here and their based on the testers advice (demands!)

My main problem is signal noise, not power conenctions. Even with balanced cables its always fingers crossed moment when I switch the stack on.

The simple amp rack in the pic above sounds very good actually. EP2500 and ECLER PAM 1000, processed by CX3400.

Can't get much more budget than that, and it rocks the crap out of 200 people venues.

[A1DL]

Lol, well I've not killed anyone yet and I've been building my own gear for two years. Had a few raised eyebrows at PAT testing mind you, and I've had to change bits here and their based on the testers advice (demands!)

Just make sure that anything you assemble is examined and PA tested before you even think of plugging it in - then you should be safe.




The simple amp rack in the pic above sounds very good actually. EP2500 and ECLER PAM 1000, processed by CX3400.

What sort of sounds does it make? :)




it rocks the crap out of 200 people venues.

I'm guessing that's a technical term to describe LF reproduction above a certain level. How loud does your system play as a matter of interest?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

<waits for the answer in watts>

:sofa:

[sleah]

<waits for the answer in watts>

:sofa:

RMS, Peak, Average, Programme, Music, PMPO?? ;);););) :Laugh:

[christoph]

How loud? Dunno in spl terms. That rack powering two microscoops and four tops does 200 for general dance/ electro easy. Add another ep2500 and two more scoops for dubstep. A stack of four scoops hits pretty hard upto 110hz.

Power wise, less than 3kw rms.

[A1DL]

Scoops for electro, Christoph? :confused: I wouldn't imagine they're fast enough, doesn't the bass become muddy?

Scoops are more "grunt" than "hit" or "kick", don't you think?

[christoph]

Nah they're fine. Staiper designed them as a one cab bass solution. They go upto 120hz fine and have plenty of snap to them. Full size scoops go a bit lower and reflex boxes hit a bit harder. These are a good middle ground and very efficient.

Two is nice for electro when crossed at 120. Two pairs of 15 inch mid tops doing 120 and up.

They drop a bit lower in stacks of 4 scoops and I cross them at 110 for dubstep. Very impressive for their size. I've build pics and plots if you want to see them. Not much bigger than a reflex 15. Much more bang per watt. Cheap to make two. But not that easy.

Ugly though!

[Corabar Steve]

:offtopic:

The last I don't know how many posts have hardly helped with the original question.

I'd asy the answer is to find somewhere that does repairs & ask them to replace them.

[christoph]

We answered the orginal question within the first few posts mate. I've even offered to do it for the OP for free!


Actually I was round at his bloody house last night, I should have took my drill and soldering iron. Can't believe that I didn't realise! What a mong.

[Happy Jack]

The benefit being the powercon latches in situe, whereas a 320 cordset can easily get pulled out.
Clearly a fan of the Powercon, Tony, and for good reason, but I'd like your opinion.

Completely OT.

With the case for the humble and abundant IEC C13 / 14, I'd be curious to know what you think of these...

http://www.volex.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=207&Itemid=58&lang=en

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Completely OT.



Perhaps you can start a new thread or PM Tony then? :)

[DJ INDIE]

just as a follow up, I have now (almost) sorted everything.

I am runnung the binding posts of the amp via banana poles to a 1U rack which ive bought 4 recessed speakon sockets for and placed it on the front of my rack. these then easily go straight to the speakers.

ive included a pic, cheers for all the help. the set up now works a dream,

[nisfo]

Well done mate. Glad you are getting there ;)

Keep us informed with any future progress. Nice to see how members overcome the smaller obstacles :)