trouble with tapco speakers

[wigglyrich01]

Sorry to be back here again, seem to be having alot of technical problems at the moment :o

Just bought a pair of tapco 6912 speakers for a great price. Took them along to an 18th gig last night along with my jbl jrx subs. They sounded quite good at first with the volume realitively low, however when the time came to increase the volume the high frequency drivers would go into protection mode and i would lose all high frequency. :bang:

I'm not sure whether to change the compression driver possibly to one of these
http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIPSD2002A&product=Eminence_PSD2002A_(Bolt-on)_1!dquote!_Throat_80W_Compression_Driver_8_Ohm

Or just send the cabs back and buy somthing else:confused:

What do you guys think?

cheers:beer1:

[TonyB]

If the high frequency drivers were going into protect mode, you were pushing them harder than they are designed for. It is unlikely that changing the compression driver will make a lot of difference.

Send them back and get something better!

[CRAZY K]

Sorry to be back here again, seem to be having alot of technical problems at the moment :o

Just bought a pair of tapco 6912 speakers for a great price. Took them along to an 18th gig last night along with my jbl jrx subs. They sounded quite good at first with the volume realitively low, however when the time came to increase the volume the high frequency drivers would go into protection mode and i would lose all high frequency. :bang:

I'm not sure whether to change the compression driver possibly to one of these
http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=EMIPSD2002A&product=Eminence_PSD2002A_(Bolt-on)_1!dquote!_Throat_80W_Compression_Driver_8_Ohm

Or just send the cabs back and buy somthing else:confused:

What do you guys think?

cheers:beer1:

The Internet says these speakers deliver a combined 500 watts rms.

Considering you had subs as well the whole system should be absolutely deafening if set up correctly with crossovers.

And the claimed power ratings are true:confused:

I would consult a DJ shop or get someone to do some tests first.

CRAZY K

[wigglyrich01]

The Internet says these speakers deliver a combined 500 watts rms.

Considering you had subs as well the whole system should be absolutely deafening if set up correctly with crossovers.

And the claimed power ratings are true:confused:

I would consult a DJ shop or get someone to do some tests first.

CRAZY K

hi, yeah i was using 2 of these with 2 jbl jrx118 subs. They were crossed over at about 120hz, and i was using a good ol numark dimension 4 with them. That puts out about 410 watts to each speaker which i thought would be a pretty good match. The manual says for higher power applications you should put 500 watts into them.

Admittedly it was quite a large venue approx 150 teenagers so i was pushing the amps quite hard, if it clipped though i backed it off. About an hour into the night the horns went into protect mode so i turned the volume right but still didnt get any highs. I assumed they were cut when the overheated, as the did come back on occassionally.

very annoying during the gig. Its a shame cus they sounded nice at the start of the night.

Do alot of speakers have this feature?

[deltic]

so you are driving 250w 8 ohm tops and 350w 4 ohm subs from one dimension 4 amp.

have you tried running mono using 1 side of amp for the tops and the other side for the subs?

[Excalibur]

so you are driving 250w 8 ohm tops and 350w 4 ohm subs from one dimension 4 amp.

have you tried running mono using 1 side of amp for the tops and the other side for the subs?

Well the lad's got a Behringer crossover ( which he's also struggling with) , so possibly two amps? :confused: :confused:

[A1DL]

The Internet says these speakers deliver a combined 500 watts rms.

Considering you had subs as well the whole system should be absolutely deafening if set up correctly with crossovers.

And the claimed power ratings are true:confused:

CRAZY K

I don't see any reason to doubt the input power ratings of 250wrms/500w peak for the Tapcos.

JRX118 isn't a particularly loud box (121dB calculated) however being JBL, with a ballsy amp behind it, will probably come pretty close to that figure, (~700w/ch)

The Tapcos on the other hand, (124dB calculated) will probably be closer to the SPL of the JBLs, as I imagine quite a few of those 500watts are turned into heat and not sound.

The quick test is to put a Tapco on a stick over one JRX118 (flat EQ and 0dB gain structure), rinse it out & see if it it's top heavy. If Tapco's marketing numbers are accurate, then you'll want another 18" in the stack. By the way, Tapco also make reference to "touring quality sound", so do that little test & make your own mind up...

The second test is to put the Tapco over two JRX118s and see if it can keep up. Of course on paper it's a perfect match with the second sub. But make sure you rinse it with something bass-heavy for this second test, to really prove the point.

Finally, not wanting to nit-pick, but sorry Alan, how can a box that can only play to 124dB be described as "absolutely deafening" (assuming they are in a "normal" performance environment)?

[wigglyrich01]

The Internet says these speakers deliver a combined 500 watts rms.

Considering you had subs as well the whole system should be absolutely deafening if set up correctly with crossovers.

And the claimed power ratings are true:confused:

I would consult a DJ shop or get someone to do some tests first.

CRAZY K

hi, yeah i was using 2 of these with 2 jbl jrx118 subs. They were crossed over at about 120hz, and i was using a good ol numark dimension 4 with them. That puts out about 410 watts to each speaker which i thought would be a pretty good match. The manual says for higher power applications you should put 500 watts into them.

Admittedly it was quite a large venue approx 150 teenagers so i was pushing the amps quite hard, if it clipped though i backed it off. About an hour into the night the horns went into protect mode so i turned the volume right but still didnt get any highs. I assumed they were cut when the overheated, as the did come back on occassionally.

very annoying during the gig. Its a shame cus they sounded nice at the start of the night.

Do alot of speakers have this feature?

[wigglyrich01]

so you are driving 250w 8 ohm tops and 350w 4 ohm subs from one dimension 4 amp.

have you tried running mono using 1 side of amp for the tops and the other side for the subs?

yeah sorry i have 2 dimension 4 amps. One for the subs running 660 watts into each and one for the tops running 412 watts each:D



Well the lad's got a Behringer crossover ( which he's also struggling with) , so possibly two amps? :confused: :confused:

Yeah i've given up trying to fix the crossover, just running the whole system in mono which seems to work fine.



I don't see any reason to doubt the input power ratings of 250wrms/500w peak for the Tapcos.

JRX118 isn't a particularly loud box (121dB calculated) however being JBL, with a ballsy amp behind it, will probably come pretty close to that figure, (~700w/ch)

The Tapcos on the other hand, (124dB calculated) will probably be closer to the SPL of the JBLs, as I imagine quite a few of those 500watts are turned into heat and not sound.

The quick test is to put a Tapco on a stick over one JRX118 (flat EQ and 0dB gain structure), rinse it out & see if it it's top heavy. If Tapco's marketing numbers are accurate, then you'll want another 18" in the stack. By the way, Tapco also make reference to "touring quality sound", so do that little test & make your own mind up...

The second test is to put the Tapco over two JRX118s and see if it can keep up. Of course on paper it's a perfect match with the second sub. But make sure you rinse it with something bass-heavy for this second test, to really prove the point.

Finally, not wanting to nit-pick, but sorry Alan, how can a box that can only play to 124dB be described as "absolutely deafening" (assuming they are in a "normal" performance environment)?

I have to say the JBL's sounded fantastic on the night, great thumping bass, i coupled them together and put them infront of my booth. It was the tapcos that was the problem. The high frequency couldnt keep up, which must of been why the compression drivers kept overheating.

I doubt the tapcos have touring sound quality, but they feel well made sound quite good when the horns dont shut down on you:bang:

Just out of interest, where did you get the figure of 121db for the JBLs? They sound pretty powerful to me, i got a few comments on the 'wicked bass' haha. I dont think i could handle any more then 2 though, they are heavey beasts.

[A1DL]

Just out of interest, where did you get the figure of 121db for the JBLs?

I calculated it using the 1w/1m sensitivity of 96dB and the RMS handling of 350w...to give a meaningful, continuous SPL - as opposed to taking it off the JBL spec sheet (which reads 127dB, calculated based on the 1400w figure which (a) the driver can handle for just a few ms and (b) assumes 100% efficiency which is a ridiculous, particularly at that input level)

[wigglyrich01]

I calculated it using the 1w/1m sensitivity of 96dB and the RMS handling of 350w...to give a meaningful, continuous SPL - as opposed to taking it off the JBL spec sheet (which reads 127dB, calculated based on the 1400w figure which (a) the driver can handle for just a few ms and (b) assumes 100% efficiency which is a ridiculous, particularly at that input level)

Ah i see. I heard somewhere that a doubling of power gives an an extra 3db? so if i put 700 watts into the cab i'd get 124db, and then coupling them is another 3db right? So i'd get 127 db out of my subs, is that right? sounds quite low comparing to other subs like the db tech 15 which puts out 133db, and thats only one 15" woofer!:confused:

As for the tapcos i think i'm gunna take them back and get some JBL jrx115's as replacement. Would this be the best option?

thanks again guys

[A1DL]

Ah i see. I heard somewhere that a doubling of power gives an an extra 3db? so if i put 700 watts into the cab i'd get 124db, and then coupling them is another 3db right? So i'd get 127 db out of my subs, is that right?

Correct in theory - with all things being even, doubling the input power will give +3dB. If you were to put another identical cab side by side, you would achieve this.

However putting twice the RMS into one cab won't, for two reasons - firstly I assume your programme material is not just a square wave (a continuous tone) rather it will be music with normal transients, and secondly the higher the input power, the transducer will become less efficient and dissipate more heat. That's why I dislike JBL's (and others') practice of quoting a maximum SPL based on a peak power handling of four times the RMS and assuming no heat dissipation. It's so far away from reality!

[flatliners]

Correct in theory - with all things being even, doubling the input power will give +3dB. If you were to put another identical cab side by side, you would achieve this.

However putting twice the RMS into one cab won't, for two reasons - firstly I assume your programme material is not just a square wave (a continuous tone) rather it will be music with normal transients, and secondly the higher the input power, the transducer will become less efficient and dissipate more heat. That's why I dislike JBL's (and others') practice of quoting a maximum SPL based on a peak power handling of four times the RMS and assuming no heat dissipation. It's so far away from reality!

we love it when you talk dirty lol

[CRAZY K]

I don't see any reason to doubt the input power ratings of 250wrms/500w peak for the Tapcos.

JRX118 isn't a particularly loud box (121dB calculated) however being JBL, with a ballsy amp behind it, will probably come pretty close to that figure, (~700w/ch)

The Tapcos on the other hand, (124dB calculated) will probably be closer to the SPL of the JBLs, as I imagine quite a few of those 500watts are turned into heat and not sound.

The quick test is to put a Tapco on a stick over one JRX118 (flat EQ and 0dB gain structure), rinse it out & see if it it's top heavy. If Tapco's marketing numbers are accurate, then you'll want another 18" in the stack. By the way, Tapco also make reference to "touring quality sound", so do that little test & make your own mind up...

The second test is to put the Tapco over two JRX118s and see if it can keep up. Of course on paper it's a perfect match with the second sub. But make sure you rinse it with something bass-heavy for this second test, to really prove the point.

Finally, not wanting to nit-pick, but sorry Alan, how can a box that can only play to 124dB be described as "absolutely deafening" (assuming they are in a "normal" performance environment)?

Tony, no offence im not a teccho but a hard gigging Entertainer using sound equipment for speech and music applications in a wide variety of venues which are rarely in a normal performance environment which may well be your preserve-- but usually abnormal as in Village Halls, Marquees, and many other acoustically challenged venues;)

I dont bother with ratings just what my ears tell me on the night :D

I sometimes work with speakers that have a rating I just noticed of 98db and it really isnt a problem--

Unless Tapco speakers really are poor ( I dont think they are) surely a pair of these and JBL subs should be loud enough for a 21st Birthday in a Hall that we assume is not called Albert :D :D :D and also assuming the "set up" i.e.
Speaker positioning, speaker angling, crossover ratings, amp ratings and matching are all correct. (they may not be)

By deafening I refer to the immediate Dance Floor area.

Im sure your technical assistance will be again invaluable--I can only say I have not experienced these problems ( horn cut out what on earth is that in a properly set up system) by using perfectly matched products from one manufacturer rather than mixing and trying to match.

Is this not another case ( so many on here) of a serious mismatch or component failure--- :confused:

regards

ALAN
CRAZY K

[A1DL]

a wide variety of venues.... which are Village Halls, Marquees, and many other acoustically challenged venues

they are the kind of places I meant by a "normal performance environment", Alan.

[MagicMusic]

I calculated it using the 1w/1m sensitivity of 96dB and the RMS handling of 350w...to give a meaningful, continuous SPL - as opposed to taking it off the JBL spec sheet (which reads 127dB, calculated based on the 1400w figure which (a) the driver can handle for just a few ms and (b) assumes 100% efficiency which is a ridiculous, particularly at that input level)

This is the sort of stuff they SHOULD have taught us at college. :(

[wigglyrich01]

Just to update i have now returned the tapco speakers. Thinking i should get some JBL jrx115 tops to replace them, unless anyone has a better suggestion??

[Excalibur]

Top cabs, plenty to choose from, from various manufacturers. What I'm confused by is that since you were using a variable crossover, why not turn the bass down to match the subs? That's what I do to balance them up.

I accept that you were looking for ultimate volume, so were pushing the system hard. On re-reading the post, I suspect the Tapcos may have been a bit on the low side for the task.

[CRAZY K]

Just to update i have now returned the tapco speakers. Thinking i should get some JBL jrx115 tops to replace them, unless anyone has a better suggestion??

Erm what did the dealer say then?

Im surprised they took them back:confused:

If they are good enough for Spin they should be good enough :D

These JBLs are only 250 watt rms a side which is no better that the Tapcos
although the SPL maybe better--(waits for Tony)

Made of MDF:eek:

Still sounds like a balancing/ matching problem as Peter is suggesting.

There are plenty of choices--depends on your budget.

CRAZY K

[Totally Plucked]

Speaking from recent experience and advice here on the forum.
The JBL JRX 115's are fantastic a great purchase :)

But as discussed many times sound is an individual's preference.

[CRAZY K]

Speaking from recent experience and advice here on the forum.
The JBL JRX 115's are fantastic a great purchase :)

But as discussed many times sound is an individual's preference.

Im sure they are a good buy but are they louder than the Tapcos--thats the point:confused:

Oh and do the horns freak out under pressure;)

CRAZY K

[Totally Plucked]

I have a pair of JBL Eon's and a pair of DB Technologies Basic 400's (Active's) on my 2 main shows and actually (recently) purchased a pair of JBL JRX 115's (after much debate on here, remember the 4 ohm load lol)

After running the JBL JRX 115's I have to say I'm impressed. Think there was an improvement in the horn on the later model's (Brian's youtube) And of course there's the option to upgrade to the Selenium Dt 220ti horn (for peanuts).

Plenty of volume with them, would urinate all over the Thumps in my honest opinion (after hearing the thumps).

[wigglyrich01]

Top cabs, plenty to choose from, from various manufacturers. What I'm confused by is that since you were using a variable crossover, why not turn the bass down to match the subs? That's what I do to balance them up.

I accept that you were looking for ultimate volume, so were pushing the system hard. On re-reading the post, I suspect the Tapcos may have been a bit on the low side for the task.

I just assumed that the tops, with no bass to worry about, wouldn't have any problems, never thought about the horns cutting out. I think it must of been the heat they gave out over the time caused them to protect:confused:
Thats why i'm looking at the jbls, they've got a feature which protects the horn without affecting preformance. Also i've seen a few pairs go quite cheap on ebay recently.


Erm what did the dealer say then?

Im surprised they took them back:confused:

If they are good enough for Spin they should be good enough :D

These JBLs are only 250 watt rms a side which is no better that the Tapcos
although the SPL maybe better--(waits for Tony)

Made of MDF:eek:

Still sounds like a balancing/ matching problem as Peter is suggesting.

There are plenty of choices--depends on your budget.

CRAZY K



Im sure they are a good buy but are they louder than the Tapcos--thats the point:confused:

Oh and do the horns freak out under pressure;)

CRAZY K

Well i'm assuming the JBLs are better quality, and i thought they would go well with my jbl subs in the same range. They've also got a horn protection which doesn't cut the horn out altogether, just absorbs excess energy which sounds pretty attractive after that night :D

I have heard them once before and thought they sounded really nice. Should of got them in the first place:bang: haha


I have a pair of JBL Eon's and a pair of DB Technologies Basic 400's (Active's) on my 2 main shows and actually (recently) purchased a pair of JBL JRX 115's (after much debate on here, remember the 4 ohm load lol)

After running the JBL JRX 115's I have to say I'm impressed. Think there was an improvement in the horn on the later model's (Brian's youtube) And of course there's the option to upgrade to the Selenium Dt 220ti horn (for peanuts).

Plenty of volume with them, would urinate all over the Thumps in my honest opinion (after hearing the thumps).

Yeah i havent heard any bad comments about them, would you say the jrx sound better then the eons?

cheers:D

[A1DL]

would you say the jrx sound better then the eons?


positively, without any doubt.

[Totally Plucked]

Totally agree, the Eon's can be really harsh sounding :)

[Excalibur]

IWell i'm assuming the JBLs are better quality, and i thought they would go well with my jbl subs in the same range. They've also got a horn protection which doesn't cut the horn out altogether, just absorbs excess energy which sounds pretty attractive after that night :D

D

So have Peaveys. A lightbulb. ;) :D :D :D :D

[yourdj]

is there not a button that changes the cut out time or something on the back?

I have a pair in my garage i will check.