Working outside

[rob1963]

I've received an enquiry which included the request shown below.

Having already replied, I'm interested to know how the rest of you would have responded to the same enquiry.

Quote:

I met with the hotel group owner today and he is looking into whether we can have the disco outside. The hotel has just had bags of money spent on it and the garden out the back would be lovely - if the weather is great. Do you set up outside? (it would have to be a really hot run of weather running up to the big day to want to do this but we are just finding out from the venue if it is an option).

Over to you!

:D

[OllieJames]

Depends whether there was suitable coverage should it rain spontaneously.. also how you'd get the power to where you were set up..

[rob1963]

Depends whether there was suitable coverage should it rain spontaneously.. also how you'd get the power to where you were set up..

I'm guessing they mean with no protection at all, as there is no mention of any.

The power thing wouldn't be a problem, as I have plenty of extension leads, and could buy more if necessary.

[OllieJames]

I'm guessing they mean with no protection at all, as there is no mention of any.

The power thing wouldn't be a problem, as I have plenty of extension leads, and could buy more if necessary.

Even if it was clear blue sky, i'd still want some kind of coverage even if there is 0.1% chance of rain, the risk is still there.

[Excalibur]

I'm guessing they mean with no protection at all, as there is no mention of any.

The power thing wouldn't be a problem, as I have plenty of extension leads, and could buy more if necessary.

Own up. Who's posting under Rob's name? :confused:

[Corabar Entertainment]

We've done it a few times, but always insisted that at least a gazebo be provided for cover. At one point, we were considering buying a gazebo for this very purpose.

In this country, you just cannot guarantee NO rain!

[A1DL]

The power thing wouldn't be a problem, as I have plenty of extension leads, and could buy more if necessary.

Are they suitable for outdoor usage Rob, i.e. do they comply with the provisions of BS7909:2008 ?

Also, how far outside is "outside"? i.e. is the "ground" (the brown stuff that you will set up on) within the equipotential zone of the TNCS installation you will be exporting?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

We've done it a few times, but always insisted that at least a gazebo be provided for cover. At one point, we were considering buying a gazebo for this very purpose.



I did!

It's been very useful for sports days commentries and the like.

[Shaun]

I'd decline the booking unless adequate coverage was provided.

[BeerFunk]

I've yet to be asked to work outdoors, and I doubt that I would take it on in any case.

[Charlie Brown]

We've done it a few times, but always insisted that at least a gazebo be provided for cover. At one point, we were considering buying a gazebo for this very purpose.


Good point.

If it was forcast not to rain but sunny spells, you can pick up a cheap gazebo for £30?

Add it onto your bill and explain it's a necessity.

[Shaun]

Are they suitable for outdoor usage Rob, i.e. do they comply with the provisions of BS7909:2008 ?

Also, how far outside is "outside"? i.e. is the "ground" (the brown stuff that you will set up on) within the equipotential zone of the TNCS installation you will be exporting?

I love reading your posts :D

Half (....who am I kidding, MOST) of the time I have no idea what you're talking about, but I marvel at your technical knowledge :D :)

[Adam_F]

I wouldn't have a problem with it, as long as there is a gazebo for protection.

I've even been camping and took my kit LoL

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

A lot of cables on show there Ad....:sj:

[A1DL]

I love reading your posts :D


Cheers buddy :)

On a serious note, there are too many people whom don't give electricity a second thought beyond "if it works, its OK"

Mishaps may be rare, however running long extensions from a building to a point far away from that building could result in serious or fatal injury. For example take a DNO fault resulting in the earth potential within the equipotential zone (i.e. inside and close to the building from which the supply originates) raising to 415v. If this is exported to a location outside of said equipotential zone where the ground potential is ~0v, I would not like to be the individual standing on the ~0v ground and touching an amp rack/dimmer rack, etc. (which will be earted back to the TNCS supply)

[Adam_F]

A lot of cables on show there Ad....:sj:


Busted LoL

(even a white one too :eek: :sofa: )

[Corabar Entertainment]

Mishaps may be rare, however running long extensions from a building to a point far away from that building could result in serious or fatal injury. For example take a DNO fault resulting in the earth potential within the equipotential zone (i.e. inside and close to the building from which the supply originates) raising to 415v. If this is exported to a location outside of said equipotential zone where the ground potential is ~0v, I would not like to be the individual standing on the ~0v ground and touching an amp rack/dimmer rack, etc. (which will be earted back to the TNCS supply)I completely agree :p :p :p

:daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft:

(Pssst.... Is he speaking English? :confused: )

[A1DL]

I completely agree :p :p :p

:daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft: :daft:

Angela
Chief Technician


Thank you Miss :)

[Corabar Entertainment]

:lol:

If you keep doing that Tony, it could be dangerous as someone might believe you :p

[STEVE HANLEY]

Would do it but would also tell them that if the weather changed or looked liked changing they would have to have a plan b like going inside plus there might be a surcharge for disasembling the gear and setting it back up somewhere else inside the venue:beer1:

[djdave01]

Ive done plenty outside events, mostly summer fates or school gala days.

I always insisted on cover, a gazebo at the very least. Only once did i do a gala day without cover (which had been promised), luckly it was a hot sunny day. Only problem was i struggled to see my compter screen it the bright sunlight.

[Penfold42]

I'd decline the booking unless adequate coverage was provided.

:agree:

[Sapphire Disco]

Own up. Who's posting under Rob's name? :confused:

RALMFHO :D

[Vectis]

Without knowing the layout of the building and proximity to said "gardens" but is there any scope for setting up just inside, for example, a set of patio doors (that aren't emergency exits) and having speakers outside on tripods? Then if it does start to rain, it's a simple job to whip them back indoors and carry on playing to the room?

I've done lots of outdoor stuff, especially with carnival, and plenty of beach parties. Always "just outside" the host building and usually with some sort of cover and, yes, very short cable runs to the internal socketry with RCDs on the ends. Anywhere further away and it's always a jenny job.

[rob1963]

Are they suitable for outdoor usage Rob, i.e. do they comply with the provisions of BS7909:2008?

Tony,

That's irrelevant, as I've politely advised the enquirer I don't work outside with no protection due to the unpredictability of the British weather & the possible outcome of rain getting into my equipment.

I've come back from work to a reply to my email. It says they've been advised by the hotel that it wouldn't be possible anyway due to noise issues.

I'm sure this is a stupid question, for which I apologise in advance, but out of interest, does BS7909:2008 cover events on private property?

[A1DL]

does BS7909:2008 cover events on private property?

Yes. 7909 is a code of practice for safe working covering temporary electrical systems. Whilst a code of practice is not law, any responsible organisation/body should ensure compliance with its provisions as they represent expert opinion on what is deemed best practice. Of course it goes without saying that the laws of physics do not discriminate between public and private property, therefore safe working is paramount wherever you are situated.

There are parts of 7909 which have been subject to much debate and disagreement, in particular the deemed non-suitability of HO5 VV-F ("arctic") cable for events use.

My personal opinion on this one is, agreed a PVC sheath is prone to split much easier than a rubber one, however I still maintain a building site (upon which HO5VVF is permitted) is a much harsher environment than the lawn at a private residence behind a marquee! Of course in construction it's typically 110v as opposed to 415v/240v in events. Also, in events, there are many inexperienced/incompetent persons/volunteers working and actions such as daisy chaining and wrapping d0m3st1c connectors in plastic tesco bags, running across vehicular routes without ramps, etc. are not uncommon. For the latter reason alone, HO7RNF is ten times safer (although still no excuse not to use ramps) or cross vehicular routes at >=3½metres above ground level, as specified in the code of practice.

Hopefully by stipulating HO7RNF for outdoor use, this will reduce the amount of (indoor) BS1363 connectors being used, which do not offer suitable ingress protection.

[yourdj]

Get them to supply a small marquee with sides.

You can buy them new on ebay for £100 - i have one and it goes up in minutes.

[Corabar Steve]

Get them to supply a small marquee with sides.

You can buy them new on ebay for £100 - i have one and it goes up in minutes.
erm......

It says they've been advised by the hotel that it wouldn't be possible anyway due to noise issues.
:sj:

[rob1963]

Yes. 7909 is a code of practice for safe working covering temporary electrical systems. Whilst a code of practice is not law, any responsible organisation/body should ensure compliance with its provisions as they represent expert opinion on what is deemed best practice. Of course it goes without saying that the laws of physics do not discriminate between public and private property, therefore safe working is paramount wherever you are situated.

There are parts of 7909 which have been subject to much debate and disagreement, in particular the deemed non-suitability of HO5 VV-F ("arctic") cable for events use.

My personal opinion on this one is, agreed a PVC sheath is prone to split much easier than a rubber one, however I still maintain a building site (upon which HO5VVF is permitted) is a much harsher environment than the lawn at a private residence behind a marquee! Of course in construction it's typically 110v as opposed to 415v/240v in events. Also, in events, there are many inexperienced/incompetent persons/volunteers working and actions such as daisy chaining and wrapping d0m3st1c connectors in plastic tesco bags, running across vehicular routes without ramps, etc. are not uncommon. For the latter reason alone, HO7RNF is ten times safer (although still no excuse not to use ramps) or cross vehicular routes at >=3½metres above ground level, as specified in the code of practice.

Hopefully by stipulating HO7RNF for outdoor use, this will reduce the amount of (indoor) BS1363 connectors being used, which do not offer suitable ingress protection.

Thanks for your answer, Tony.

The reason I asked is because many years ago I did several discos under gazebos in the back gardens or private properties, and I only used standard extension leads from the house & just wondered if I'd been breaking the law by doing so.

Having said that, the nearest I get to working outside these days in a few gigs each year in marquees. In all cases the marquee company does the electrics & supplies my power sockets, so I guess these will conform to the appropriate rules & regulations.

[Chris1984]

In all cases the marquee company does the electrics & supplies my power sockets, so I guess these will conform to the appropriate rules & regulations.

I think people would be surprised at how alot of marquee companies do not!

[A1DL]

I think people would be surprised at how alot of marquee companies do not!

Spot on Chris, marquee companies tend to be amongst the worst offenders. They do usually have IP44 rated connectors, but that's where it stops. It is commonplace to find unprotected stepdown jumpers, bodged splitters, inadequate diameter cables and no evidence of recent PAT within marquee electrics.

[Corabar Entertainment]

So Tony, what advice would you give all of us plebs?

(in simple terms, if you can! :p )

[CRAZY K]

I've received an enquiry which included the request shown below.

Having already replied, I'm interested to know how the rest of you would have responded to the same enquiry.

Quote:

I met with the hotel group owner today and he is looking into whether we can have the disco outside. The hotel has just had bags of money spent on it and the garden out the back would be lovely - if the weather is great. Do you set up outside? (it would have to be a really hot run of weather running up to the big day to want to do this but we are just finding out from the venue if it is an option).

Over to you!

:D

Hiya Rob again:D

I will leave the technical stuff to Tony--he seems to have all the right numbers to quote you:D

Simple really--most of these people dont have the first idea about this kind of thing. Sounds like a good idea--weather forecasts --pah!! rubbish;)

First question is--if you have a covered area COULD you immediately move your kit into the main building without being rained on.

If the answer is no my advice--dont bother.

Personal discomfort and Hand S possibly.

If yes explain there will be a 30 minute break whilst you move the kit (safely)
indoors.

I once had a stand off with the Headmaster of a School:mad:

He said its not going to rain we want you playing outside.

I said--I have looked at the clouds--its going to rain im not playing outside, getting soaked and then having to move back indoors--a long way from the middle of a playground.

Before a row started I said--I bet you £20 it rains--that second a little schoolgirl rushed into the room we were having this heated discussion and shouted----
ITS RAINING ITS RAINING ITS RAINING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh: :Laugh:

Mr Know nothing begrudgingly agreed I was right but I waived my winnings as im a fair minded person.

They did book me again, but I havent heard from them recently--thank goodness:D :D :D

Over to you

Alan

CRAZY K


I'm guessing they mean with no protection at all,



No way :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

CRAZY K

[Excalibur]

Having said that, the nearest I get to working outside these days in a few gigs each year in marquees. In all cases the marquee company does the electrics & supplies my power sockets, so I guess these will conform to the appropriate rules & regulations.
:fp: :fp: :fp: :fp: :fp:


Spot on Chris, marquee companies tend to be amongst the worst offenders. They do usually have IP44 rated connectors, but that's where it stops. It is commonplace to find unprotected stepdown jumpers, bodged splitters, inadequate diameter cables and no evidence of recent PAT within marquee electrics.

And of course the classic. You ask for exclusive use of two sockets, 13a or 16a, cos you're a sceptical old git, and you'd like as much spare capacity as possible. On arrival, you find as requested, two 13a sockets set aside for you. Fed from one 16a ceeform. Coming out of the marquee uplighting. And what else it's feeding, well that's anybody's guess! :bang: :bang: :bang:

Sometimes, I wonder why we bother. :confused: :confused: