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Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 07:52 AM
OK, forgive me for re-hashing yet another MP3 thread.

I'm struggling! Having used a download website that I would rather not use any more (no comments please), I need to find an alternative! However, the biggest problem I have is using Mixmiester. Historically I have had problems with it playing MP3 files which have the "licence" thingy, which meant the usual sources - Itunes, Napster etc... were out.

What's the solution?

Is there something I can do with Mixmiester to make it play files with the encription? Or do I need to copy my CD's to MP3's to use it? Does that in turn mean I would need to look at the digital DJ licences (or is that a whole can of worms).

Failing that, I am guessin g to continue using downloads, I will need to plump for download and copy to audio CD. In which case, which service offers the best value?

I've heard that Napster offers a monthly fee plan for unlimited - can I copy these to audio CD?

What about Itunes, or is that only useful if I have a while bit of plastic to put it on (or will it work on my lovely new Sony Ericsson W810i?)

I have used Woolworths, but after downloading for a wedding this weekend only to turn up at the gig, try to play and be told that I needed to connect to the net to download the licence (nearly caused a big problem with the bride, but lucky they had a copy of the CD for the first dance), I am a little dubious about them.

Otherwise, what else is available (assuming I am not going to use mixmiester!)

colinm345
19-06-2006, 10:46 AM
Hi

You should have no problems putting MP3s into Mixmeister,however they will come out in a WAV format that will need to be exported to a seperate file then converted back to MP3 ,should you wish

It seems that you may also have DRM problems the best way to get round this is to use Tunebite http://www.tunebite.de/website/v2/en/home.php?affiliate=60240

Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 11:38 AM
Hi

You should have no problems putting MP3s into Mixmeister,however they will come out in a WAV format that will need to be exported to a seperate file then converted back to MP3 ,should you wish

It seems that you may also have DRM problems the best way to get round this is to use Tunebite http://www.tunebite.de/website/v2/en/home.php?affiliate=60240
Colin, is the DRM software legal to use with files which use DRM?

Corabar Steve
19-06-2006, 02:04 PM
I've heard that Napster offers a monthly fee plan for unlimited - can I copy these to audio CD?
In a word, NO. Don't take this the wrong way Matt, but don't be daft! How much "free" music would you be able to get if this were the case?????

If you use the Napster subscription service, the moment you click on the burn to disc icon, the buy track prompt will appear & you will not be able to burn the tracks in question until you have actually purchased them.

Napster subscription does however, allow transfer to "another device" of any track downloaded. Not sure how the DRM works with this, I think Napster deletes the files automaticly if you connect to the "source" computer after subscription has lapsed. I'm also not sure about the performance licence side of things with this as you haven't actually purchased anything, as the subscription is basicly a rental agreement.

Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 04:54 PM
In a word, NO. Don't take this the wrong way Matt, but don't be daft! How much "free" music would you be able to get if this were the case?????

If you use the Napster subscription service, the moment you click on the burn to disc icon, the buy track prompt will appear & you will not be able to burn the tracks in question until you have actually purchased them.

Napster subscription does however, allow transfer to "another device" of any track downloaded. Not sure how the DRM works with this, I think Napster deletes the files automaticly if you connect to the "source" computer after subscription has lapsed. I'm also not sure about the performance licence side of things with this as you haven't actually purchased anything, as the subscription is basicly a rental agreement.

As I well know now as I've just tried the free trial with them. Does it mean you can play the files direct from the laptop - that may have some worth.

So what service would you suggest?

Corabar Entertainment
19-06-2006, 05:00 PM
As I well know now as I've just tried the free trial with them. Does it mean you can play the files direct from the laptop - that may have some worth.Yes - so long as you continue the subscription (as soon as you stop, your licence to use them is revoked). This would mean that you would be committed for ever more, since if you ever stopped using the subscription you wouldn't have any music and would have to buy it all from scratch! It might be a handy option for someone just starting out (a quick way of getting a large collection whilst they are building up the music they own, but I wouldn't recommend it for an established DJ)


So what service would you suggest?(Presumably you mean download service) IMHO, just pay for each track as you go along - whether it be on Napster, iTunes, or where ever (I know Darren uses Woolworths a fair bit)

CRAZY K
19-06-2006, 05:07 PM
The other problem Rice is if Napster go down the tubes (for a second time)
so do all your rented tracks!

CRAZY K

Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 06:42 PM
OK then, so which service offers the best value tracks?

Solitaire Events Ltd
19-06-2006, 06:47 PM
OK then, so which service offers the best value tracks?

Well, Woolworths are between 59p to 99p per track and are 192Kbps WMA files, and Itunes are generally 79p per track.

And you don't have to subscribe to either.

Corabar Steve
19-06-2006, 06:47 PM
The other problem Rice is if Napster go down the tubes (for a second time)
Not very likely as they are now the biggest legal download site for the UK (number of tracks wise that is)

The only reason they folded last time is because they were illegal at the time

CRAZY K
19-06-2006, 06:47 PM
Im waiting for the experts to post the answer--other than Woolies-- im still interested as well!

Cue---experts on downloading sources :teeth: :teeth: :teeth:


CRAZY K

Corabar Steve
19-06-2006, 06:53 PM
Here's the opportunity for you to do your research (http://www.pro-music.org/musiconline/tracker-region-europe.htm) Scroll down to UK, hope this will help some.

Solitaire Events Ltd
19-06-2006, 06:56 PM
Here's the opportunity for you to do your research (http://www.pro-music.org/musiconline/tracker-region-europe.htm) Scroll down to UK, hope this will help some.

Great link Steve.

I buy CDs and DVDs from CDWOW, but didn't know they did downloads.

Corabar Entertainment
19-06-2006, 06:57 PM
We have tried quite a few of them since they started, and (purely from an ease of use and download point of view) iTunes and Napster are both great. Some of the others are fiddly and a pain in the **** to navigate and download. Can't say what they are like from the point of view of a PC DJ though, we're not doing that (as yet :) )

Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 09:09 PM
Ok then...

There are some fundimentals here. Firstly, as far as I see it you have to subscribe to Napster with a monthly cost AND pay for each track you want to keep?

I also noted that Napster seems to offer tracks in WMA format, not MP3, which is fine if I want to burn to a CD, but not if I want to use them on my walkman (which I may well want to). I'm also assuming (although not tried yet) that these files won't play on Mixmeister (and I am still waiting for Colin to let me know how "legal" the software he recomended is please).

I did try itunes a while ago and (much like Napster, but in a far more intrusive way) found it horrible to navigate and locate files. Both seem to want to MAKE you ise there software to listen, burn and transfer, when actually I just want to download to "My music" and use them in my own way - am I missing something with these two?

I should add that I have the same "WMA" problem with the Woolies site. Do any of these sites provide MP3 downloads? After all I though that was the whole thing (please note, that currently I have NO idea what itunes do, but would love to know).

I also think that 79p is a little steep for a single track when I have to buy my own CD and use my own ink to print the cover, but is that about the standard (considering I paid bloody £16 in HMV for a Foster and Alan greatest hits album on Saturday because I couldn't find in to download at woolies!)

Corabar Entertainment
19-06-2006, 09:19 PM
There are some fundimentals here. Firstly, as far as I see it you have to subscribe to Napster with a monthly cost AND pay for each track you want to keep? No, the subscription isn't compulsory. You can either subscribe and download as many tracks as you want to, but you are only 'renting' the music (ie when you stop your subsciption, your right to play those tracks ceases)

OR

you can pay for each track and actually buy it outright.

Can't help on the PC DJing side of things (as I've said before), but, all I will say is that if you find the likes of iTunes & Napster difficult to use then, give up on downloading music! That isn't meant to be nasty in any way whatsoever, it's just that of all of the download sites, those two are probably the most user-friendly - not too mention the best stocked musically.

Ricesnaps
19-06-2006, 09:32 PM
Can't help on the PC DJing side of things (as I've said before), but, all I will say is that if you find the likes of iTunes & Napster difficult to use then, give up on downloading music! That isn't meant to be nasty in any way whatsoever, it's just that of all of the download sites, those two are probably the most user-friendly - not too mention the best stocked musically.

Don't get me wrong here, it's not about finding the tracks or where to go to download them, it's the inbuilt need to use there software to play the tracks. I have a Sony Ericsson Walkman and it seems that the only way to make use of the "transfer to an MP3 player" is via the napster software - and my players not supported. That's what I meant. Justr want a simple download in MP3 that I can pay and use as I want to, not as they want me to!

Corabar Steve
19-06-2006, 09:44 PM
So, what you really need is a programe that will convert other formats to MP3 before you export to whatever player.

A bit like in paintshop pro for example, you download an image as a gif. You click file > save as & you get a drop down menu that asks where you want to save it & as what type of file. To carry on my analogy I would save the image into my photos as a jpeg, you want the track in my music as an MP3

CRAZY K
19-06-2006, 10:29 PM
If you want to convert from WMA to MP3 then Wolfie recommended C Dex
to me which I used and is fine---and the best bit---free!

However I am surprised that the download from Woolies is not an MP3 --

As you say Rice--you would think all the downloads would be in MP3 and go straight into your laptop ready to play.

What about people like Tesco, MSN and Virgin--are they the same i.e. WMA?

Perhaps someone else can confirm?

I seem to remember a few years ago my son downloaded music from a dodgy site like Kazaa--the files were all MP3---sods law eh?

CRAZY K

Corabar Entertainment
19-06-2006, 10:34 PM
I seem to remember a few years ago my son downloaded music from a dodgy site like Kazaa--the files were all MP3---sods law eh? Quick! Send the police round to Alan's house to arrest his son :) :) :)

CRAZY K
19-06-2006, 10:39 PM
TOO LATE :sad:

We finally managed to get him to move out a year ago---after bribing him of course :teeth: :teeth: :teeth:

CRAZY K

colinm345
19-06-2006, 11:28 PM
Colin, is the DRM software legal to use with files which use DRM?


Yes it is legal ,as it retains the licenced track,and then makes an MP3 from it :)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 12:01 AM
Yes it is legal ,as it retains the licenced track,and then makes an MP3 from it :)

But....

It also makes a copy of the track.....

Make of that what you will.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:40 AM
But....

It also makes a copy of the track.....

Make of that what you will.

Sort of ,but not strictly true ,as it is not an exact copy it is a copy without the DRM :)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 10:35 AM
Sort of ,but not strictly true ,as it is not an exact copy it is a copy without the DRM :)

Still a copy though Colin and as it is a copy it is subject to royalties etc

Ricesnaps
20-06-2006, 11:49 AM
Right then. Lets try and get this a little clearer!

I need to find a easy source of reasonably priced downloads that are obviouslu legal.

I have noew experienced Napster and have the following issues:

1. The only way to download is through there own purpose designed software, which in turn I find difficult to see how to change the download location.
2. The only option I had to beable to use the service included either a £9.99 per month fee OR a £14.99 per month fee. To then burn the track you pay again - what am I missing?
3. Napster downloads in WMA format, which not only does my Sony Walkman not like at all (and part of the whole idea of the napster thing, so I thought, was to be able to transfer track you hadn't paid the 79p for onto a portable device), but Mixmiester won't recognise them either. To be fair I'm not sure if that's due to DRM or the fact that the track are not MP3 - maybe a Mixmiester expert can advice - either way, WAY to much hassle to get the tracks working.
4. Only solution so far seems to be pay to burn and rip back to hard drive - but surely that is going to violate some licence requirement and to be honest, sort of make the whole point of download a little pointless.
5. As far as I can tell, I have to use the Napster Software to burn the tracks to a CD?

Then there is Woolies:

1. Only downloads are in WMA format - don't work with walkman or Mixmiester
2. Generally a better organised download system - by that I mean I can find my tracks, I know where they are and I can burn them myself through my own software

Then I tried something called the "Connect" store:

Just re-read all of the Napster comments - fairly similar really.

I haven't yet tried itunes, but an earlier encounter a few years ago would suggest that it will frustrate me in much the same way that Napster and Connect do. Although I maybe need some up to date info - is it WMA with itunes? or do I get MP3?

Otherwise, I still have a few on the list Steve posted (it was you that did that wasn't it?), but what I really wanted was to pick the collective brains on here to save me trying out about 10 or 11 different services.

Hopefully some of the above comments will help you understand what I want to achieve - and so it seems maybe what others want to achieve too - hey Alan, we're in this one together!

colinm345
20-06-2006, 11:52 AM
Still a copy though Colin and as it is a copy it is subject to royalties etc

Of course it is but we already know that dont we? :)

However I believe the DJ Licence states you are allowed a backup,so WMA or WAv containing the DRM as your backup,then MP3 as your original

Make of that what you will. :teeth:

colinm345
20-06-2006, 11:55 AM
Right then. Lets try and get this a little clearer!

I need to find a easy source of reasonably priced downloads that are obviouslu legal.

I have noew experienced Napster and have the following issues:

1. The only way to download is through there own purpose designed software, which in turn I find difficult to see how to change the download location.
2. The only option I had to beable to use the service included either a £9.99 per month fee OR a £14.99 per month fee. To then burn the track you pay again - what am I missing?
3. Napster downloads in WMA format, which not only does my Sony Walkman not like at all (and part of the whole idea of the napster thing, so I thought, was to be able to transfer track you hadn't paid the 79p for onto a portable device), but Mixmiester won't recognise them either. To be fair I'm not sure if that's due to DRM or the fact that the track are not MP3 - maybe a Mixmiester expert can advice - either way, WAY to much hassle to get the tracks working.
4. Only solution so far seems to be pay to burn and rip back to hard drive - but surely that is going to violate some licence requirement and to be honest, sort of make the whole point of download a little pointless.
5. As far as I can tell, I have to use the Napster Software to burn the tracks to a CD?

Then there is Woolies:

1. Only downloads are in WMA format - don't work with walkman or Mixmiester
2. Generally a better organised download system - by that I mean I can find my tracks, I know where they are and I can burn them myself through my own software

Then I tried something called the "Connect" store:

Just re-read all of the Napster comments - fairly similar really.

I haven't yet tried itunes, but an earlier encounter a few years ago would suggest that it will frustrate me in much the same way that Napster and Connect do. Although I maybe need some up to date info - is it WMA with itunes? or do I get MP3?

Otherwise, I still have a few on the list Steve posted (it was you that did that wasn't it?), but what I really wanted was to pick the collective brains on here to save me trying out about 10 or 11 different services.

Hopefully some of the above comments will help you understand what I want to achieve - and so it seems maybe what others want to achieve too - hey Alan, we're in this one together!

Okay

Mixmeister will convert MP3 to wav,or you can feed them in as wav,but you must get rid of the DRM first :)

CRAZY K
20-06-2006, 12:40 PM
Just to pick the thread up from the start again--where do you get the most reasonably priced downloads in MP3 format that means you dont have to start "converting" music just to play it? and is user friendly?

The question is not fully answered--although Steve helpfully put on a cracking link--

So is anyone using downloads like ---MSN, Virgin, Tesco etc OR are they a waste of time?

Information or feedback would be appreciated by Matt and myself--

CRAZY K
Now thinking of buying a laptop!

colinm345
20-06-2006, 01:03 PM
Just to pick the thread up from the start again--where do you get the most reasonably priced downloads in MP3 format that means you dont have to start "converting" music just to play it? and is user friendly?

The question is not fully answered--although Steve helpfully put on a cracking link--

So is anyone using downloads like ---MSN, Virgin, Tesco etc OR are they a waste of time?

Information or feedback would be appreciated by Matt and myself--

CRAZY K
Now thinking of buying a laptop!

MSN, Virgin, Tesco ,are okay

Quite cant understand what you mean when you say the question is not fully answered? :)

hotangel
20-06-2006, 01:13 PM
Of course it is but we already know that dont we? :)

However I believe the DJ Licence states you are allowed a backup,so WMA or WAv containing the DRM as your backup,then MP3 as your original

Make of that what you will. :teeth:


but does that not change the type of file?

i thought you needed a license from the MCPS to change the type of file as this would be no different than transfer of CD to WAV

:confused: :confused: :confused:

colinm345
20-06-2006, 01:27 PM
but does that not change the type of file?

i thought you needed a license from the MCPS to change the type of file as this would be no different than transfer of CD to WAV

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Well picked up ,an excellent point Pauline yes it does change but read this first http://www.tunebite.de/website/v2/en/home.php?affiliate=60240 :teeth:

Also this http://www.tunebite.de/website/v2/en/awards.php?affiliate=60240

hotangel
20-06-2006, 01:30 PM
but that is a german site, so what is on there does not apply in british copyright law

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 01:32 PM
Right then. Lets try and get this a little clearer!

I need to find a easy source of reasonably priced downloads that are obviouslu legal.For all the agro you're having I'd stick to buying CDs for the time being & wait & see the outcome of the Gower Report.

is it WMA with itunes? or do I get MP3?
iTunes uses AAC files (a format solely used by Apple) but can convert to MP3 (although it doesn't seem to like doing it to iTunes purcased tracks)

colinm345
20-06-2006, 01:36 PM
but that is a german site, so what is on there does not apply in british copyright law

That does not matter you are allowed one backup and one original for private use

What you do with it then is up to you :)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 01:39 PM
That does not matter you are allowed one backup and one original for private use



According to who Colin?

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 01:45 PM
That does not matter you are allowed one backup and one original for private use

What you do with it then is up to you :)
Oh yes it does, German copyight & UK copyright are totally different. As are many other countries copyright laws, USA actually has fair use similar to what is being looked into by the Gower people

colinm345
20-06-2006, 01:47 PM
According to who Colin?

According to my earlier post as I have been led to believe this is allowed in the DJ Licence

colinm345
20-06-2006, 01:53 PM
Oh yes it does, German copyight & UK copyright are totally different. As are many other countries copyright laws, USA actually has fair use similar to what is being looked into by the Gower people

I dont wish to appear rude but know one really knows the law here's are just surmising

Perhaps one should read the propsed changes here http://www.bl.uk/services/information/copyrightfaq.html
that stem from a European Union Directive passed in Summer 2001

All Ive done is try to help Ricesnips on this pure and simple I do not expect to be and will not be shot down in flames

As far as I am concerned just discuss it amongst yourselves

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 01:56 PM
I dont wish to appear rude but know one really knows the law here's are just surmising

All Ive done is try to help Ricesnips on this pure and simple I do not expect to be and will not be shot down in flames

As far as I am concerned just discuss it amongst yourselves

No-one is shooting you down in flames Colin :)

Ricesnaps
20-06-2006, 04:05 PM
For all the agro you're having I'd stick to buying CDs for the time being & wait & see the outcome of the Gower Report.

iTunes uses AAC files (a format solely used by Apple) but can convert to MP3 (although it doesn't seem to like doing it to iTunes purcased tracks)

Ah but sticking to CD's sort of defeats the whole purpose of what I want to do this for!

The whole beauty of downloading music is the ability to obtain absolutely whatever the client may want, usually however obscure that may be. It also allows you to be specific about the track you want to buy and only pay for that track. Take this weekend just gone, the client specifically asked for a Foster and Alan track - now I don't know about you but I have never ever been asked for a Foster and Alan track in my whole career! But I ended up having to pay £16 for a greatest hits CD from HMV. It could quite easily have cost 79p as a download, but I need to gt to grips with how to make this work best for me.

Can I say a huge thanks to Colin for the call earlier - very useful mate, don't take any notice of the others!

Right now, as far as I can see, my best solution is to download the tracks and burn to CD and not worry too much about the whole digital DJ thing, but it is a huge shame that this is not a whole lot easier. It should be, after all we are in a fantastic age of technology and are constantly being told how great it is to download. It apears that is only great if you have the right compatable player, or software or are prepared to spend ages changing tracks from one format to another (which in turn throws up the whole argument surrounding licencing).

All I wanted to know what which sites you guys think are best and which ones would allow me to download as MP3 files.

Thanks again Colin :teeth:

colinm345
20-06-2006, 04:29 PM
You are more than welcome :teeth:

Have a disco
20-06-2006, 04:42 PM
Ah but sticking to CD's sort of defeats the whole purpose of what I want to do this for!

The whole beauty of downloading music is the ability to obtain absolutely whatever the client may want, usually however obscure that may be. It also allows you to be specific about the track you want to buy and only pay for that track. Take this weekend just gone, the client specifically asked for a Foster and Alan track - now I don't know about you but I have never ever been asked for a Foster and Alan track in my whole career! But I ended up having to pay £16 for a greatest hits CD from HMV. It could quite easily have cost 79p as a download, but I need to gt to grips with how to make this work best for me.

Can I say a huge thanks to Colin for the call earlier - very useful mate, don't take any notice of the others!

Right now, as far as I can see, my best solution is to download the tracks and burn to CD and not worry too much about the whole digital DJ thing, but it is a huge shame that this is not a whole lot easier. It should be, after all we are in a fantastic age of technology and are constantly being told how great it is to download. It apears that is only great if you have the right compatable player, or software or are prepared to spend ages changing tracks from one format to another (which in turn throws up the whole argument surrounding licencing).

All I wanted to know what which sites you guys think are best and which ones would allow me to download as MP3 files.

Thanks again Colin :teeth:

tried joining Limewire as a member of there libary??

hotangel
20-06-2006, 04:53 PM
Reading this whole last page or so, i can't see where Colin is wrong & likewise i can't see where anyone else is wrong.

Nobody knows the law properly & when questions have been asked to those that are supposed to, then it seems neither do they.

At the moment the laws on music copyright are all up in the air because of the gowers report as well as the BPI personal use ruling as published on the BBC website a few weeks back, there are many unanswered questions which all we can do is wait to see so nobody can say they know the law or what is right or who is right or wrong.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 05:01 PM
The whole beauty of downloading music is the ability to obtain absolutely whatever the client may want, usually however obscure that may be. It also allows you to be specific about the track you want to buy and only pay for that track. Take this weekend just gone, the client specifically asked for a Foster and Alan track - now I don't know about you but I have never ever been asked for a Foster and Alan track in my whole career! But I ended up having to pay £16 for a greatest hits CD from HMV. It could quite easily have cost 79p as a download, but I need to gt to grips with how to make this work best for me.Coz Foster & Allen are so obscure. I've found that it's the obscure stuff that you do have to still buy the CD's for, as you can't find it to download.

For example if I was booking a disco for my 40th next year, it would seem reasonable that I had some of my favourite tracks played. Now lets see some bands that I've had to order/ buy the CDs of because there is no downlad available, or at very best one track that I hadn't heard as it was on a tribute album to another atrist (This is just over the last year BTW)

the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only)
the Prisoners
the Baracudas
Union Avenue
the Lime Spiders
Louise Attaque
the Assosiates
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)
the Milkshakes
the Beatles

Now I'll grant you that some of these are very obscure, but there were still no downloads available or in the 2 instances that there were, they were of no use to me.

Another suprising one was Frank Sinatra - The way you look tonight (One specific song that I could only find on one CD, no download available)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 05:06 PM
tried joining Limewire as a member of there libary??

Limewire is a file sharing site is it not? :omg:

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 05:07 PM
For example if I was booking a disco for my 40th next year, it would seem reasonable that I had some of my favourite tracks played. Now lets see some bands that I've had to order/ buy the CDs of because there is no downlad available, or at very best one track that I hadn't heard as it was on a tribute album to another atrist (This is just over the last year BTW)

the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only)
the Prisoners
the Baracudas
Union Avenue
the Lime Spiders
Louise Attaque
the Assosiates
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)
the Milkshakes
the Beatles



Blimey, don't be booking me then.... :omg: :teeth:

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 05:10 PM
the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only)
the Prisoners
the Baracudas
Union Avenue
the Lime Spiders
Louise Attaque
the Assosiates
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)
the Milkshakes
the Beatles...and can I only turn up for part of the evening, please? :teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 05:25 PM
You're both missing my point, obscure stuff that I had to buy the CD because I couldn't find any downloads

...and can I only turn up for part of the evening, please? :teeth:
What? this part?
Union Avenue
the Assosiates
Sparks
the Beatles

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 05:28 PM
You're both missing my point, obscure stuff that I had to buy the CD because I couldn't find any downloadsNot missing the point at all - just making a separate statement.
What? this part?No, this part...
the Assosiates
Sparks
:teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 05:49 PM
But the point wasn't about my proposed fictional (as it stands at the moment) party, but the fact that in the case of more obscure artists & indeed the Beatles, you still have to buy the CD because you can't legally download

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 05:53 PM
We know.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:04 PM
Coz Foster & Allen are so obscure. I've found that it's the obscure stuff that you do have to still buy the CD's for, as you can't find it to download.

For example if I was booking a disco for my 40th next year, it would seem reasonable that I had some of my favourite tracks played. Now lets see some bands that I've had to order/ buy the CDs of because there is no downlad available, or at very best one track that I hadn't heard as it was on a tribute album to another atrist (This is just over the last year BTW)

the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only)
the Prisoners
the Baracudas
Union Avenue
the Lime Spiders
Louise Attaque
the Assosiates
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)
the Milkshakes
the Beatles

Now I'll grant you that some of these are very obscure, but there were still no downloads available or in the 2 instances that there were, they were of no use to me.

Another suprising one was Frank Sinatra - The way you look tonight (One specific song that I could only find on one CD, no download available)

I have just found Frank Sinatra The Way You Look tonight as a download on MP3 Rocket 4.9

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:05 PM
But the point wasn't about my proposed fictional (as it stands at the moment) party, but the fact that in the case of more obscure artists & indeed the Beatles, you still have to buy the CD because you can't legally download

You can legaly download from Wippit

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:10 PM
I have just found Frank Sinatra The Way You Look tonight as a download on MP3 Rocket 4.9Are they on the list posted on this link?
Here's the opportunity for you to do your research (http://www.pro-music.org/musiconline/tracker-region-europe.htm) Scroll down to UK, hope this will help some.
You can legaly download from WippitMissed that :embarasse

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 06:10 PM
You can legaly download from Wippit

I think Steve was making the point that Beatles tracks are not available for download anywhere.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:11 PM
Colin while you're at it, can you see if you can find anything by the other bands anywhere?

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:14 PM
Colin while you're at it, can you see if you can find anything by the other bands anywhere?

Of course I can

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:20 PM
That was actually a joke Colin (there was no :teeth: coz I was posting using quick reply) but if you do spot anything by them on any legal site, I would appreciate any info

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 06:26 PM
but if you do spot anything by them on any legal site, I would appreciate any info

Me too, so I know not to go there... :teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:30 PM
Me too, so I know not to go there... :teeth:
Can I ask if you've actually heard anything by any of the artists in question?

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:31 PM
Colin while you're at it, can you see if you can find anything by the other bands anywhere?

the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only) Yes More than 1
the Prisoners NO
the Baracudas NO
Union Avenue 1 ONLY
the Lime Spiders NO
Louise Attaque PLENTY
the Associates NO
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)NO
the Milkshakes NO
the Beatles PLENTY

BTW I believe The Lime Spiders are an Australian Punk Band ,a bit of an unusual choice for an up market do? :teeth:

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 06:32 PM
Can I ask if you've actually heard anything by any of the artists in question?

Yeah, probably in your car on the way to the meet....alongside a load of other strange sounding bands :teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:33 PM
the Fuzztones (the band that had one track only) Yes More than 1
the Prisoners NO
the Baracudas NO
Union Avenue 1 ONLY
the Lime Spiders NO
Louise Attaque PLENTY
the Associates NO
Sparks (loads of recent stuff to download, but none of the classics)NO
the Milkshakes NO
the Beatles PLENTY
Where? :omg: :omg: :omg:

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 06:33 PM
Must've missed the link - where can you get Beatles stuff Colin?

I thought none of their catalouge was available for download?

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:36 PM
Yeah, probably in your car on the way to the meet....alongside a load of other strange sounding bands :teeth:
Actually probably not, as I mentioned they've all been bought within the last year, so I wouldn't have had them.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:37 PM
Tut Tut ,Dont want to do anything we may think to be illegal do we :teeth:

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 06:41 PM
Tut Tut ,Dont want to do anything we may think to be illegal do we :teeth:

Erm, no?

Have you got the link?

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:49 PM
Have you got the link?
Yeah, gimme gimme! :teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 06:52 PM
Tut Tut ,Dont want to do anything we may think to be illegal do we :teeth:Well actually, no I don't. I want to be able to legally use any track I buy, however mainstream or obscure it may be, you never know when someone might request it.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 06:56 PM
Okay then http://www.mp3rocket.com/indexcb.htm?hop=mp3now1

but I use this though a legal source and pay a subscription for it :)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:01 PM
Well....

The bottom of the page says this:

Share Responsibly:
Today, there are 240 million users trading MP3s on legal file-sharing networks. Sharing is not illegal as long as you obey all relevant copyright laws. Sharing copyrighted material, without permission to do so, is illegal. MP3 Rocket Inc. implores you to respect all copyright laws.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:02 PM
Thanks Colin

Dosen't appear to be on the list, what country is it based in?

colinm345
20-06-2006, 07:03 PM
Well....

The bottom of the page says this:

Share Responsibly:
Today, there are 240 million users trading MP3s on legal file-sharing networks. Sharing is not illegal as long as you obey all relevant copyright laws. Sharing copyrighted material, without permission to do so, is illegal. MP3 Rocket Inc. implores you to respect all copyright laws.

Well spotted Daz

I have already read that myself :)

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:04 PM
Well....

The bottom of the page says this:

Share Responsibly:
Today, there are 240 million users trading MP3s on legal file-sharing networks. Sharing is not illegal as long as you obey all relevant copyright laws. Sharing copyrighted material, without permission to do so, is illegal. MP3 Rocket Inc. implores you to respect all copyright laws.
Missed that, well there you go.

It would appear that you've been shafted Colin, if you use anything from this site at a gig you would appear to be breaking the law.

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:05 PM
Which means it's illegal as far as I can see, unless you are downloading non-copyrighted material.

I think the phrase "Sharing copyrighted material, without permission to do so, is illegal. " sort of stands out really!

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:09 PM
Which means it's illegal as far as I can see, unless you are downloading non-copyrighted material.
As far as I know all he artists I mentioned have not issued any recordings without copyright

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:15 PM
Most sites even Virgin say this I think you will find

No, Virgin is not a file sharing site.

It's a straight download site mate.

Big difference.

hotangel
20-06-2006, 07:15 PM
if you use anything from this site at a gig you would appear to be breaking the law.


I have a question, maybe some of the people who know a bit more about this can answer this one.

If i run a pub i would need an entertainments license if i hired a DJ or karaoke & that DJ was playing music, agreed.

However, if i own a music bar & only employed live local bands who only perform their own material then would i need an entertainments license?

I was always told the reason we need to pay for the licensing is to protect the artists & ensure the money goes to the right people, but how would I stand license wise if i was the person paying the bands and not the licensing people?

colinm345
20-06-2006, 07:18 PM
Most sites say this I think you will find

In fact playing mp3s in public is illegal anyway at the moment,without the necessary licences :)

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:21 PM
In fact playing mp3s in public is illegal anyway at the moment,without the necessary licences :)

No it isn't mate.

If you are using just legally downloaded Mp3s, you don't require a digital DJ licence.

They are just for ripping or converting media.

hotangel
20-06-2006, 07:29 PM
No it isn't mate.

If you are using just legally downloaded Mp3s, you don't require a digital DJ licence.

They are just for ripping or converting media.

Daz, i'm stumped. :confused:

I was always led to believe you needed a Digital license to use the tracks in public & that the MCPS license is the one you need for ripping or converting media.

If i recall Colin said that he paid to use the MP3 download service he uses so i would think if he is paying for his downloads he is legal.

I thought you were on the working party & had all the answers.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:33 PM
I have a question, maybe some of the people who know a bit more about this can answer this one.

If i run a pub i would need an entertainments license if i hired a DJ or karaoke & that DJ was playing music, agreed.

However, if i own a music bar & only employed live local bands who only perform their own material then would i need an entertainments license?

I was always told the reason we need to pay for the licensing is to protect the artists & ensure the money goes to the right people, but how would I stand license wise if i was the person paying the bands and not the licensing people?
I'm surprised at you.

I would have thought that you knew the difference between the PPL, PRS & PEL :omg:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:34 PM
If i recall Colin said that he paid to use the MP3 download service he uses so i would think if he is paying for his downloads he is legal.
So people don't pay when they buy stolen goods then?

soundtracker
20-06-2006, 07:37 PM
We've done all this a million times- just look at the grid! Its perfectly straight forward.

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:41 PM
Daz, i'm stumped. :confused:

I was always led to believe you needed a Digital license to use the tracks in public & that the MCPS license is the one you need for ripping or converting media.

If i recall Colin said that he paid to use the MP3 download service he uses so i would think if he is paying for his downloads he is legal.

I thought you were on the working party & had all the answers.

I never claimed to have all the answers.

Just because you are paying for a download service doesn't make it legal. It is file sharing which is illegal as we all know.

The MCPS collect royalties for the writers and publishers and the PPL collect for artists and record companies, hence the need at we stand for the 2 licenses which are both for changing the media and not performance.

This of course could all change very soon. :)

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 07:44 PM
If i recall Colin said that he paid to use the MP3 download service he uses so i would think if he is paying for his downloads he is legal. Unfortunately, just to make it more difficult for all of us, paying for downloads doesn't mean that they are legit: just take a look at the fuss over allofmp3.com that was all over the news a couple of weeks ago.

For anyone who missed it, here's a link to the BBC website news story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5061610.stm

colinm345
20-06-2006, 07:45 PM
So people don't pay when they buy stolen goods then?

Cannot understand that

LET ME SAY IT ONCE MORE I BUY A SUBSRIRTION SERVICE

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 07:47 PM
This could go on and on....

Colin, the service you are subscribing to is a file sharing service which is illegal on copyrighted material.

I'm not having a go at you, just telling you the truth.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 07:48 PM
Cannot understand that

LET ME SAY IT ONCE MORE I BUY A SUBSRIRTION SERVICE
Just coz you pay for it dosen't make it legal.

Unfortunately, just to make it more difficult for all of us, paying for downloads doesn't mean that they are legit: just take a look at the fuss over allofmp3.com that was all over the news a couple of weeks ago.

For anyone who missed it, here's a link to the BBC website news story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5061610.stm

colinm345
20-06-2006, 07:49 PM
Unfortunately, just to make it more difficult for all of us, paying for downloads doesn't mean that they are legit: just take a look at the fuss over allofmp3.com that was all over the news a couple of weeks ago.

For anyone who missed it, here's a link to the BBC website news story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/5061610.stm

Quite right ,but I carefully researched what I could and could not do before joining the service

colinm345
20-06-2006, 07:53 PM
This could go on and on....

Colin, the service you are subscribing to is a file sharing service which is illegal on copyrighted material.

I'm not having a go at you, just telling you the truth.

Daz it is not it is another company that uses MP3 Rocket as one of its carriers

BTW I also use Wippit are you saying thats illegal 2?

hotangel
20-06-2006, 07:54 PM
I'm surprised at you.

I would have thought that you knew the difference between the PPL, PRS & PEL :omg:


I know that PEL & PRS are required by music bars, but i can't get my head round why a music bar that plays nothing but live & original music from local bands would need a PRS licence when PRS pay the artists. The artists playing in music bars would be paid by the owner but not PRS. If it was playing tribute bands i could see why it is needed.

Solitaire Events Ltd
20-06-2006, 08:00 PM
Daz it is not it is another company that uses MP3 Rocket as one of its carriers

BTW I also use Wippit are you saying thats illegal 2?

No, 'cos it's not file sharing :)

Ricesnaps
20-06-2006, 08:02 PM
OK guys, I think there is a lot of confusion here.

First things first, have a ready here:

http://www.mp3rocket.com/legal.htm

I read from this that the site Colin has shared with us is simply identifying that the pear to pear filesharing of copywrited music files is illegal. I read this as nothing more than a strict warning that the site does not condone people who do this. From what i can see this site is a music download site and NOT a fileshare as a few of you have suggested.

What it does seem to be is an American based site. I am guessing that the laws are different in the US than here. Unfortunately Colin, I think on this occasion the downloads do apear to be too good to be true - much like Allofmp3.com as mentioned earlier (although I understand that allofmp3 were also completely illegal in there home country too!).

Which brings me back to my original post (many pages ago). What's the best service, cheapest service and which service will mean less work with the downloaded file to make it work on digital software without causing licencing problems?

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:04 PM
No, 'cos it's not file sharing :)

And the program I am on is not file sharing anyway

Perhaps you download from Tescos just have a look at thier conditions,and you will find you are not allowed to perform in public

Except for your Usage Rights, any copying, reproduction, lending or hiring, public performance, broadcasting or any other form of distribution of the Downloads are prohibited and will constitute a copyright infringement.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandconditions/termsconditionsDownloads.htm

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 08:05 PM
Steve posted a link right at the beginning of the thread which was a Worldwide Directory of Authorised Digital Music Services (download sites, to you & me :) ), Wippit is clearly listed on there. For those of you lazy **** ( :) :) ) who didn't follow the link, these are the UK based sites in the directory (although the formatting gone to pot, you get the gist):-

Name: Content Partners: Minimum Songs:
Bignoisemusic.com Majors and indies 300,000
Bleep.com Indies
Brasianbeats Indies
Bulldog Majors and indies 500000
Connect UK All majors and indies 600000
CD Wow! Wow Tunes All majors and indies
Daily Express Majors and indies
Daily Snack Majors and indies
Daily Star Majors and indies
DJ Download.com Indies
Download Express Indies
easyMusic.com All majors and indies
Freeserve Music Club Majors and indies 250,000
GWR Majors and indies 250,000
HearItBuyItBurnIt.com Majors and indies 250,000
HMV Digital All majors and indies 1700000
iTunes UK All majors and indies 1700000
Karmadownload 3,500 labels 175000
London Music Network
Loot Tunes All majors and indies
Mean Fiddler Majors, indies
MetroTunes
Ministry of Sound Ministry of Sound 200,000
MSN Music Club UK All majors 600,000
MTV Digital Downloads UK OD2 Catalogue 250,000
Mycokemusic.com All majors and Indies 250,000 tracks from 8,500 artists
Napster UK All majors 2000000
Nervous Records Independent record label 1,500
NTL All majors 200,000
OK Magazine Majors and indies
Panasonic music store Majors and indies
Packard Bell UK Majors and indies 300,000
Peoplesound Majors and indies
Streets Online EMI, XL Recordings, Beggars Group
Tesco All majors and indies 500,000
Trax2burn Over 30 independent dance labels
TuneTribe Warner and 500 indie labels
Virgin Digital UK All majors and indies 1400000
Vitaminic Music Club UK All majors and some indies 500,000
Wanadoo UK All majors and indies 500,000
War Child Music
Wippit UK All majors and indies 1,000,000
Woolworths All majors and some Indies 280000

Ricesnaps
20-06-2006, 08:08 PM
OK, just had a look at wippit - so far it looks ok. Is it legal? Does £4.99 a month really mean I can legally download anything I want? Too good to be true?

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:13 PM
I know that PEL & PRS are required by music bars, but i can't get my head round why a music bar that plays nothing but live & original music from local bands would need a PRS licence when PRS pay the artists. The artists playing in music bars would be paid by the owner but not PRS. If it was playing tribute bands i could see why it is needed.Can they guarantee that every band that plays there will not play any cover versions whatsoever?
My band played our own songs, but we did on occasion include a cover of a song by Iggy Pop or Kyuss to pad out the set. The government will make no distinction between a band playing 100% originals or an entire set of covers. If ther's any chance that a band will play a cover (all bands are capable of doing this) then the venue will need a PRS licence.

BTW you did originally ask about the PEL which is the Public Entertainment Licence fairly self explanitory that one :teeth: if there's entertainment & it's open to the public.......

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:13 PM
Steve posted a link right at the beginning of the thread which was a Worldwide Directory of Authorised Digital Music Services (download sites, to you & me :) ), Wippit is clearly listed on there. For those of you lazy **** ( :) :) ) who didn't follow the link, these are the UK based sites in the directory (although the formatting gone to pot, you get the gist):-

Name: Content Partners: Minimum Songs:
Bignoisemusic.com Majors and indies 300,000
Bleep.com Indies
Brasianbeats Indies
Bulldog Majors and indies 500000
Connect UK All majors and indies 600000
CD Wow! Wow Tunes All majors and indies
Daily Express Majors and indies
Daily Snack Majors and indies
Daily Star Majors and indies
DJ Download.com Indies
Download Express Indies
easyMusic.com All majors and indies
Freeserve Music Club Majors and indies 250,000
GWR Majors and indies 250,000
HearItBuyItBurnIt.com Majors and indies 250,000
HMV Digital All majors and indies 1700000
iTunes UK All majors and indies 1700000
Karmadownload 3,500 labels 175000
London Music Network
Loot Tunes All majors and indies
Mean Fiddler Majors, indies
MetroTunes
Ministry of Sound Ministry of Sound 200,000
MSN Music Club UK All majors 600,000
MTV Digital Downloads UK OD2 Catalogue 250,000
Mycokemusic.com All majors and Indies 250,000 tracks from 8,500 artists
Napster UK All majors 2000000
Nervous Records Independent record label 1,500
NTL All majors 200,000
OK Magazine Majors and indies
Panasonic music store Majors and indies
Packard Bell UK Majors and indies 300,000
Peoplesound Majors and indies
Streets Online EMI, XL Recordings, Beggars Group
Tesco All majors and indies 500,000
Trax2burn Over 30 independent dance labels
TuneTribe Warner and 500 indie labels
Virgin Digital UK All majors and indies 1400000
Vitaminic Music Club UK All majors and some indies 500,000
Wanadoo UK All majors and indies 500,000
War Child Music
Wippit UK All majors and indies 1,000,000
Woolworths All majors and some Indies 280000

Perhaps you download from Tescos just have a look at thier conditions,and you will find you are not allowed to perform in public

Except for your Usage Rights, any copying, reproduction, lending or hiring, public performance, broadcasting or any other form of distribution of the Downloads are prohibited and will constitute a copyright infringement.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandcondit...nsDownloads.htm
__________________

Wolfie
20-06-2006, 08:14 PM
I've just been told about this thread so feel i really must jump in.

Colin,

if you are paying for £20 to the subscriber for a download service & paying your music rights, which means the artists get paid & they would surely monitor what tracks are being used/downloaded on that service.

That would be regarded as Legal, you are paying your copyright & provided MCPS / PRS etc etc get a cut of the subscription fee's then it should be fully covered. This would be no different than downloading a few MP3's from a P2P / file sharing site or bit torrent site & then shoving £20 in an envelope & sending it with a letter to MCPS to say what you are doing & what you have downloaded. Is this legal or illegal? Well if you ask me it's legal.... MCPS will get paid, you get your tracks & you have paid out of your own pocket for the music you yourself want to use, no different than walking into HMV, picking up a load of singles & paying the man behind the counter, all you are doing is cutting out the middleman.


Steve

Also i've just got off the phone & have the full SP on music bars & PEL, as it came up in conversation. Yes you do need a PRS license but then the music still needs to be licensed.

Sounds daft i know but even if you write your own song & pass it to your mates you would need to be licensed, so yes PRS can have you done under copyright law for passing around a CD full of stuff you are singing yourself to a few mates or playing live music to an audience - even if you wrote it - if you don't get your work licensed.

Although by law you as an artist playing in that music bar should be entitled to a share of PRS money if your work is licensed.

If ever you download free software off the internet you will always find a license bundled with it? Ever heard of the GNU / GPL... if you are giving something away free as "open source" then this is what you need.
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:14 PM
Perhaps you download from Tescos just have a look at thier conditions,and you will find you are not allowed to perform in public
Except for your Usage Rights, any copying, reproduction, lending or hiring, public performance, broadcasting or any other form of distribution of the Downloads are prohibited and will constitute a copyright infringement.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandconditions/termsconditionsDownloads.htm
That's what your PPL licence is for, look on your CDs & you'll find the same thing

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:17 PM
Sounds daft i know but even if you write your own song & pass it to your mates you would need to be licensed, so yes PRS can have you done under copyright law for passing around a CD full of stuff you are singing yourself to a few mates or playing live music to an audience - even if you wrote it - if you don't get your work licensed. Only if you have published the songs

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:19 PM
That's what your PPL licence is for, look on your CDs & you'll find the same thing

PPL Licence Hmm thought I only needed a DJ Licence and a SG6 or whatever

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:19 PM
That would be regarded as Legal, you are paying your copyright & provided MCPS / PRS etc etc get a cut of the subscription fee's then it should be fully covered. This would be no different than downloading a few MP3's from a P2P / file sharing site or bit torrent site & then shoving £20 in an envelope & sending it with a letter to MCPS to say what you are doing & what you have downloaded. Is this legal or illegal? Well if you ask me it's legal.... MCPS will get paid, you get your tracks & you have paid out of your own pocket for the music you yourself want to use, no different than walking into HMV, picking up a load of singles & paying the man behind the counter, all you are doing is cutting out the middleman.
All well & good but for the fact that under current UK copyright law P2P & bit torrent sites are illegal.

P.S. Wolfie have you seen the thread about adding banners to your signature? it would seem you are the only one who can help on that

hotangel
20-06-2006, 08:20 PM
BTW you did originally ask about the PEL which is the Public Entertainment Licence fairly self explanitory that one :teeth: if there's entertainment & it's open to the public.......

actually i was asking aout what licenses i would need if i run a music bar that just uses original live bands with just original new music & if or why i would need to pay whoever i was paying a license, as we were on the subject of who gets paid for what.

Wolfie
20-06-2006, 08:23 PM
Only if you have published the songs

no you don't.. if you perform those songs or just hand out CD's to mates or sell CD's at gigs you do, then you need to have your work licensed.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:23 PM
PPL Licence Hmm thought I only needed a DJ Licence and a SG6 or whatever
Colin don't take this the wrong way but, are you being deliberatly thick tonight?

PPL Public Performance Licence = a licence for performing in public places (ie the venues that you wolud be doing your disco in) What you're talking about are the licences for change of format as well you & Wolfie know

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:25 PM
All well & good but for the fact that under current UK copyright law P2P & bit torrent sites are illegal.

P.S. Wolfie have you seen the thread about adding banners to your signature? it would seem you are the only one who can help on that

The sites are not illegal,its how some people use them

Anyway I am going to watch Football,and without being rude leave all the self professed experts 2 it :)

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:27 PM
no you don't.. if you perform those songs or just hand out CD's to mates or sell CD's at gigs you do, then you need to have your work licensed.
If they're not published they cannot be copyrighted Also if your songs are not published or copyrighted you would not be a PRS member so they wouldn't act on your behalf, it has to be someone they represnt for them to get the money.

Don't forget I chat with my local PRS rep on quite a regular basis

hotangel
20-06-2006, 08:30 PM
If they're not published they cannot be copyrighted Also if your songs are not published or copyrighted you would not be a PRS member so they wouldn't act on your behalf, it has to be someone they represnt for them to get the money.

Don't forget I chat with my local PRS rep on quite a regular basis

Ask Robbie, he's just got off the phone with Wolfie, Wolfie asked him if this was right & Robbie pretty much confirmed it was required that you need to have your work licensed, even if you only sell CD's at gigs.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:31 PM
actually i was asking aout what licenses i would need if i run a music bar that just uses original live bands with just original new music & if or why i would need to pay whoever i was paying a license, as we were on the subject of who gets paid for what.Not quite how the question appeared.

I have a question, maybe some of the people who know a bit more about this can answer this one.

If i run a pub i would need an entertainments license if i hired a DJ or karaoke & that DJ was playing music, agreed.

However, if i own a music bar & only employed live local bands who only perform their own material then would i need an entertainments license?

I was always told the reason we need to pay for the licensing is to protect the artists & ensure the money goes to the right people, but how would I stand license wise if i was the person paying the bands and not the licensing people?

Wolfie
20-06-2006, 08:31 PM
All well & good but for the fact that under current UK copyright law P2P & bit torrent sites are illegal.


you are wrong Steve... the sites themselves are not illegal... only the use of those sites is illegal. If you use those sites to transfer legal material then it's perfectly OK.

this is why Pirate bay got back up & running 2 days after it was closed by the Police, what they are doing isn't actually illegal, just what the users are doing is deemed illegal. Have a look at the "legal threats" section on the piratebay website & this will confirm this.






P.S. Wolfie have you seen the thread about adding banners to your signature? it would seem you are the only one who can help on that

no, not yet. where is it? I've been deliberately keeping away from the site recently for reasons i won't go into, other than to say i'm getting a bit fed up of being told what i can & can't do on this site.

hotangel
20-06-2006, 08:33 PM
Not quite how the question appeared.

it was the last buit i was referring to most

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:34 PM
Ask Robbie, he's just got off the phone with Wolfie, Wolfie asked him if this was right & Robbie pretty much confirmed it was required that you need to have your work licensed, even if you only sell CD's at gigs.
So robbie is on both sides of the table at LWP meetings ?

There is no UK law that states this. It is adviseable however to get your work published & copyrighted because if it does sell that is the only way you'll get any money for it. BUT nothing says you have to

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:41 PM
the Beatles PLENTY
When exactly did the Beatles (Apple Music) release their songs digitaly?

The press release that they were going to do it was last week the release date has yet to be confirmed as they are going to remaster the entire back catalogue first (estimated time, at least 2 years) any site containing Beatles tracks (with one exception) for download is breaking the law.

I was going to address this earlier but I got caught up with people asking questions that they really should know thw answers to.

Wolfie
20-06-2006, 08:41 PM
So robbie is on both sides of the table at LWP meetings ?

There is no UK law that states this. It is adviseable however to get your work published & copyrighted because if it does sell that is the only way you'll get any money for it. BUT nothing says you have to

Steve,

I came across an article last week, (i think it was on Shoutwire) that stated that musical works of live performers - even unsigned acts - needed to be licensed if their music is distributed even in private circles or performed live.... however where or how you obtain this license is a mystery to me.

I asked robbie to confirm if this was true .

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:44 PM
There is no licence, I've been in bands, issued CDs & performed live I think I might know.

But just to be safe I'll ask my PRS rep next time I see him

Ricesnaps
20-06-2006, 08:49 PM
HELLO......????

A somewhat hijacked thread again!!!

Could somebody tell me if this wippit site is legal? If it is does anyone know if the "free to download if you subscribe" bit is worth it - decent tracks to download?

Thanks

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:50 PM
BTW this is the thread I was talking about that needed your help Wolfie (http://www.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2449)

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:51 PM
HELLO......????

A somewhat hijacked thread again!!!

Could somebody tell me if this wippit site is legal? If it is does anyone know if the "free to download if you subscribe" bit is worth it - decent tracks to download?

Thanks

Steve posted a link right at the beginning of the thread which was a Worldwide Directory of Authorised Digital Music Services (download sites, to you & me :) ), Wippit is clearly listed on there. For those of you lazy **** ( :) :) ) who didn't follow the link, these are the UK based sites in the directory (although the formatting gone to pot, you get the gist):-

Name: Content Partners: Minimum Songs:
Bignoisemusic.com Majors and indies 300,000
Bleep.com Indies
Brasianbeats Indies
Bulldog Majors and indies 500000
Connect UK All majors and indies 600000
CD Wow! Wow Tunes All majors and indies
Daily Express Majors and indies
Daily Snack Majors and indies
Daily Star Majors and indies
DJ Download.com Indies
Download Express Indies
easyMusic.com All majors and indies
Freeserve Music Club Majors and indies 250,000
GWR Majors and indies 250,000
HearItBuyItBurnIt.com Majors and indies 250,000
HMV Digital All majors and indies 1700000
iTunes UK All majors and indies 1700000
Karmadownload 3,500 labels 175000
London Music Network
Loot Tunes All majors and indies
Mean Fiddler Majors, indies
MetroTunes
Ministry of Sound Ministry of Sound 200,000
MSN Music Club UK All majors 600,000
MTV Digital Downloads UK OD2 Catalogue 250,000
Mycokemusic.com All majors and Indies 250,000 tracks from 8,500 artists
Napster UK All majors 2000000
Nervous Records Independent record label 1,500
NTL All majors 200,000
OK Magazine Majors and indies
Panasonic music store Majors and indies
Packard Bell UK Majors and indies 300,000
Peoplesound Majors and indies
Streets Online EMI, XL Recordings, Beggars Group
Tesco All majors and indies 500,000
Trax2burn Over 30 independent dance labels
TuneTribe Warner and 500 indie labels
Virgin Digital UK All majors and indies 1400000
Vitaminic Music Club UK All majors and some indies 500,000
Wanadoo UK All majors and indies 500,000
War Child Music
Wippit UK All majors and indies 1,000,000
Woolworths All majors and some Indies 280000
That would be a yes

Corabar Entertainment
20-06-2006, 08:52 PM
OK Matt, we've posted the link, plus I copied and pasted it into the thread, but here goes again....
Steve posted a link right at the beginning of the thread which was a Worldwide Directory of Authorised Digital Music Services (download sites, to you & me :) ), Wippit is clearly listed on there. For those of you lazy **** ( :) :) ) who didn't follow the link, these are the UK based sites in the directory (although the formatting gone to pot, you get the gist):-

Name: Content Partners: Minimum Songs:
Bignoisemusic.com Majors and indies 300,000
Bleep.com Indies
Brasianbeats Indies
Bulldog Majors and indies 500000
Connect UK All majors and indies 600000
CD Wow! Wow Tunes All majors and indies
Daily Express Majors and indies
Daily Snack Majors and indies
Daily Star Majors and indies
DJ Download.com Indies
Download Express Indies
easyMusic.com All majors and indies
Freeserve Music Club Majors and indies 250,000
GWR Majors and indies 250,000
HearItBuyItBurnIt.com Majors and indies 250,000
HMV Digital All majors and indies 1700000
iTunes UK All majors and indies 1700000
Karmadownload 3,500 labels 175000
London Music Network
Loot Tunes All majors and indies
Mean Fiddler Majors, indies
MetroTunes
Ministry of Sound Ministry of Sound 200,000
MSN Music Club UK All majors 600,000
MTV Digital Downloads UK OD2 Catalogue 250,000
Mycokemusic.com All majors and Indies 250,000 tracks from 8,500 artists
Napster UK All majors 2000000
Nervous Records Independent record label 1,500
NTL All majors 200,000
OK Magazine Majors and indies
Panasonic music store Majors and indies
Packard Bell UK Majors and indies 300,000
Peoplesound Majors and indies
Streets Online EMI, XL Recordings, Beggars Group
Tesco All majors and indies 500,000
Trax2burn Over 30 independent dance labels
TuneTribe Warner and 500 indie labels
Virgin Digital UK All majors and indies 1400000
Vitaminic Music Club UK All majors and some indies 500,000
Wanadoo UK All majors and indies 500,000
War Child Music
Wippit UK All majors and indies 1,000,000
Woolworths All majors and some Indies 280000
As for the subscription, can't help you... but it may well be the same as Napster's - ie you are only entitled to keep the music for as long as you keep the subscription (more like a rental than a purchase). Check the small print on the site.

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:53 PM
Beat ya! :teeth: :rose:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 08:55 PM
I'm fairly sure that all the subscription services are the same, as in if you want to burn (ie make a permanent copy of a downloaded track) you wil have to pay for it on top of the subscription fee.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 08:58 PM
HELLO......????

A somewhat hijacked thread again!!!

Could somebody tell me if this wippit site is legal? If it is does anyone know if the "free to download if you subscribe" bit is worth it - decent tracks to download?

Thanks

Is legal and costs £4.99 per month but the tracks come down as WMA so therefore you will need Tunebite to convert them,and burn straight away

Many free tracks and free Albums such as The Artic Monkeys etc,but all top tracks cost £1.00 as well :teeth:

Corabar Steve
20-06-2006, 09:03 PM
,but all top tracks cost £1.00 as well :teeth:
Bit pricey though!

Wolfie
20-06-2006, 09:05 PM
Steve,

I came across an article last week, (i think it was on Shoutwire) that stated that musical works of live performers - even unsigned acts - needed to be licensed if their music is distributed even in private circles or performed live.... however where or how you obtain this license is a mystery to me.

I asked robbie to confirm if this was true .

the article i stumbled across (can't find it now) has revealed the majority of this information..


a license doesn't need to be anything more than:
the precise name of the product
the name of the person or organization distributing it
details how to contact the distributor(s)
which i imagine you could write up yourself
PRS can claim breach of copyright if your work is not licensed - same with MP3's if you don't have the relevent paperwork at a guess
If someone comes along & uses your track for something such as a film or a compilation album, if it is not licensed you can't claim royalties from PRS.

colinm345
20-06-2006, 09:08 PM
Bit pricey though!

Yes it is on the face of it but when you weigh up the free element its not 2 bad ,provided you like the free element that is ,plenty of obscure content,may even suit you :teeth:

CRAZY K
20-06-2006, 10:04 PM
Well hows about---how much do these other people( MSN, VIRGIN, TESCO) charge--are they user friendly-- do you get an MP3 and do you have to download a licence?

That should do it for me and Rice :teeth:

Thanks

CRAZY K

colinm345
21-06-2006, 08:49 AM
When exactly did the Beatles (Apple Music) release their songs digitaly?

The press release that they were going to do it was last week the release date has yet to be confirmed as they are going to remaster the entire back catalogue first (estimated time, at least 2 years) any site containing Beatles tracks (with one exception) for download is breaking the law.

I was going to address this earlier but I got caught up with people asking questions that they really should know thw answers to.

There you go again :) Why not share with us where you got that info from

colinm345
21-06-2006, 08:53 AM
Perhaps you download from Tescos just have a look at thier conditions,and you will find you are not allowed to perform in public

Except for your Usage Rights, any copying, reproduction, lending or hiring, public performance, broadcasting or any other form of distribution of the Downloads are prohibited and will constitute a copyright infringement.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandcondit...nsDownloads.htm
__________________

The other ones you will have to look at yourself :)

Ricesnaps
21-06-2006, 09:00 AM
Alan,

I may have the answer (although it would be great to have more!).

Check out www.wippet.com

Currently doing first months membership for £2.99 and the downloads included aint too bad - currently downloading Franz Ferdinand, Artic Monkeys and some older stuff. All the "free" downloads are indeed free (not rented) and are downloaded as MP3. The rest that aren't free range from 79p up to 99p, but considering the free included tracks, seems a good deal.

Only problem I seem to have with it so far is that you appear only able to download a track at a time, which is a little frustrating, but I'll let you know how it goes!

Just need to see if the tracks transfer to the Walkman OK!

colinm345
21-06-2006, 09:05 AM
Alan,

I may have the answer (although it would be great to have more!).

Check out www.wippet.com

Currently doing first months membership for £2.99 and the downloads included aint too bad - currently downloading Franz Ferdinand, Artic Monkeys and some older stuff. All the "free" downloads are indeed free (not rented) and are downloaded as MP3. The rest that aren't free range from 79p up to 99p, but considering the free included tracks, seems a good deal.

Only problem I seem to have with it so far is that you appear only able to download a track at a time, which is a little frustrating, but I'll let you know how it goes!

Just need to see if the tracks transfer to the Walkman OK!

I think you will find you can download more than one track at a time if you use thier download manager :)

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 09:58 AM
There you go again :) Why not share with us where you got that info fromI don't know where Steve read it, but a quick search on the net revealed these (extracts from full articles with links)

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,18794,00.html

“It's been a long and winding road, but the Beatles are finally getting online.
Apple Corps, the music company formed by the Fab Four to control their music and business empire, has confirmed plans to digitally remaster the band's entire catalog and, for the first time, make it available for download via online”

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,,1771592,00.html

“Meanwhile, the only legal download of a Beatles song performed by a Beatle is Paul McCartney, aided and abetted by U2, singing Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band at last year's London Live8 concert, which took just 45 minutes to go from recording to download, a world record confirmed by the Guinness Book of Records.”

“A spokeswoman for Apple Corps told us this week that there is "no date planned for the downloads; it's one of many projects Apple [Corps] is working on". She said the timing won't have anything to do with the appeal, announced by Aspinall directly after Mr Justice Mann ruled that the iTunes Music Store had not infringed a 1991 agreement between the two companies.”

http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=032003KMG0BK

“Industry experts have speculated that the refusal by Apple Corps owners Paul McCartney, Ringo Starr, John Lennon's widow Yoko Ono, and George Harrison's widow Olivia Harrison to authorize online downloads has resulted in millions of illegal downloads from which they have been unable to profit.”

“Those wanting to put the group's songs on their iPods or other digital-music players have had to purchase CDs and upload the contents to their computers, then transfer the songs to their music devices.”

“Less scrupulous fans have been bypassing the legal channels and downloading Beatles' songs from file-sharing networks like Gnutella or eDonkey. The Beatles' music is among the most pirated content on file-sharing networks. A search through any one of the popular peer-to-peer networks turns up hundreds, if not thousands, of recordings from the Beatles' ouvre.”

http://www.starpulse.com/news/index.php/2006/04/11/beatles_catalog_to_be_remastered_offered

"But the boss of their record label Apple Corps, Neil Aspinall, revealed the development in London's High Court, where the company is currently battling Apple Computer over its logo. He said, "We're remastering the whole Beatles catalog, just to make it sound brighter and better and getting proper booklets to go with each of the packages. I think it would be wrong to offer downloads of the old masters when I am making new masters. It would be better to wait and try to do them both simultaneously so that you then get the publicity of the new masters and the downloading, rather than just doing it ad hoc."

I even found several references in various BBC Articles about the recent court case (I can put links to the articles if anyone wants them, but they are mainly about the court case):

“Tracks by The Beatles have not been licensed for downloading”

“Corps has resolutely set its face against participating in the downloading revolution.“

“With The Beatles' back-catalogue not yet available (legally) on the web”


__________________________________________________ _______________
So, I don't think that there can be any argument that the Beatles are not yet available for download legally, but that there are now at least plans to make them available at some time in the future...... So, if any site does have them on there now ...... BEWARE :omg:

colinm345
21-06-2006, 11:37 AM
Thanks for that ,very informative,but if you look on Wippit you will find tracks there by The Beatles for download

However this was in the earlier days when Pete Best was the drummer,and they were then known as The Savage Young Beatles


BTW you can download Beatles Tracks from here also

http://music.yahoo.com/ar-262009-downloads--The-Beatles

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 11:53 AM
Well, obviously it is up to you to decide, but don't you think that it is highly unlikely that the likes of the BBC, the Guardian, the High Court, and Apple Corps (including Neil Aspinall himself) have all got it wrong?

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 11:55 AM
Perhaps you download from Tescos just have a look at thier conditions,and you will find you are not allowed to perform in public

Except for your Usage Rights, any copying, reproduction, lending or hiring, public performance, broadcasting or any other form of distribution of the Downloads are prohibited and will constitute a copyright infringement.

http://www.tesco.com/termsandconditions/termsconditionsDownloads.htmThe other ones you will have to look at yourself :)But that is still the same as with regular CDs
There you go again :) Why not share with us where you got that info from
I don't know where Steve read itBBCi, bbc.co.uk ,the Daily Mail, the Mirror, the Times, & I also heard it on the radio, both BBC 6 Music & Virgin Radio. Of course if you want to doubt the authenticity of any information from such dubious sources, it's up to you. :) :)
BTW I believe The Lime Spiders are an Australian Punk Band ,a bit of an unusual choice for an up market do? :teeth:Not exactly punk (no safety pins, spikey hair or gobbing) more garage (in it's original musical definition) but that's beside the point, I never said it was for a gig, I said they were CDs I had to order because there were no downloads available & (although somewhat irelevant to the conversation) I didn't wan to rip from my vinyl copies of the records.

Quite frankly I'm insulted that you infer my taste in music is "down market", & quite what you think the class of a customer has to do with their taste in music is beyond me. The gig I played in Woburn Abbey Sculpture Gallery at the weekend (for which I & the majority of the guests were dressed black tie dinner suit etc) included requests for Nirvana, Kaiser Chiefs & the Sex Pistols. Are you telling me that that wasn't an up market do just because of the choice of music?


Anyway I am going to watch Football,and without being rude leave all the self professed experts 2 it :)I missed this last night, again I find this insulting (& somewhat patronising) I never professed to be an expert, however I do know the facts (this does not make me an expert though). I can't see anywhere Daz claiming to be an expert either, although I think due to his work on the LWP he probably knows more about it than most.

colinm345
21-06-2006, 11:56 AM
Well, obviously it is up to you to decide, but don't you think that it is highly unlikely that the likes of the BBC, the Guardian, the High Court, and Apple Corps (including Neil Aspinall himself) have all got it wrong?

I dont think a company like Yahoo have got it wrong

Solitaire Events Ltd
21-06-2006, 12:00 PM
Most of those tracks appear to be karaoke tracks....

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:00 PM
Corabar Steve wrote

I missed this last night, again I find this insulting (& somewhat patronising) I never professed to be an expert, however I do know the facts (this does not make me an expert though). I can't see anywhere Daz claiming to be an expert either, although I think due to his work on the LWP he probably knows more about it than most.

My reply is as follows

Sorry I feel insulted too

If you cannot take it then stop dishing it out

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:01 PM
Thanks for that ,very informative,but if you look on Wippit you will find tracks there by The Beatles for download

However this was in the earlier days when Pete Best was the drummer,and they were then known as The Savage Young Beatles


BTW you can download Beatles Tracks from here also

http://music.yahoo.com/ar-262009-downloads--The-Beatles
I did say with an exception, & that is any track that they released before being billed as "the Beatles" as in pure & simply the Beatles on ti's own, not the Savage Young Beatles, not the Silver Beatles, not the Quarrymen, & not the Beatles & somebody or somebody & the Beatles. There is a case of this available on Napster, but as the Beatles there is no Legal downloads available until after the remastering for the entire back catalogue is complete

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:02 PM
Most of those tracks appear to be karaoke tracks....

Then I suggest you have a closer look,there is more than one page you know :)

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 12:05 PM
Colin: I have just had a look at the link you posted. As far as I can see, they are all either

1. Savage Young Beatles
2. Interviews, etc
3. Karaoke downloads (about which I know nothing)

...But no actual 'Beatles' there (on a quick look anyhow)

Solitaire Events Ltd
21-06-2006, 12:05 PM
Then I suggest you have a closer look,there is more than one page you know :)

I did!

And as I said "Most of the tracks seem to be karaoke"

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:08 PM
Colin,

correct me if i am wrong here, but i would of thought, like your downloading system using the service you use, is it not regarded as legal if the artist gets paid... regardless of the track or it's format.

Yes the Beatles may well have not given permission to download their tracks, but if someone does an MP3 copy of their tracks, you then download it & thrust some cash into their hands to pay for it, this should not be a problem & i'm sure Sir Paul McCartney & Yoko Ono wouldn't give 2 hoots so long as they have a few more quid to stuff under the matress & have made a sale.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:11 PM
Colin,

correct me if i am wrong here, but i would of thought, like your downloading system using the service you use, is it not regarded as legal if the artist gets paid... regardless of the track or it's format.

Yes the Beatles may well have not given permission to download their tracks, but if someone does an MP3 copy of their tracks, you then download it & thrust some cash into their hands to pay for it, this should not be a problem & i'm sure Sir Paul McCartney & Yoko Ono wouldn't give 2 hoots so long as they have a few more quid to stuff under the matress & have made a sale.
I'm sorry wolfie But you are talking utter b******s!

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:12 PM
Corabar Steve wrote

I missed this last night, again I find this insulting (& somewhat patronising) I never professed to be an expert, however I do know the facts (this does not make me an expert though). I can't see anywhere Daz claiming to be an expert either, although I think due to his work on the LWP he probably knows more about it than most.

My reply is as follows

Sorry I feel insulted too

If you cannot take it then stop dishing it out
Where have I insulted either you or your taste in music???????

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:15 PM
Well, obviously it is up to you to decide, but don't you think that it is highly unlikely that the likes of the BBC, the Guardian, the High Court, and Apple Corps (including Neil Aspinall himself) have all got it wrong?
I dont think a company like Yahoo have got it wrong
Well I think the company & director (of that company) that actually handles the Beatles music might just have a small incling what's goingon with their own product.

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:15 PM
I'm sorry wolfie But you are talking utter b******s!


Thought that might be the case from someone who knows the facts :)

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:16 PM
Thought that might be the case from someone who knows the facts :)
Well he is! You can't bypass copyright law by forcing the money into the hands of the copyright holder.

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 12:16 PM
I dont think a company like Yahoo have got it wrongBut you are happy to think that BBCi, bbc.co.uk ,the Daily Mail, the Mirror, the Times, BBC 6 Music, Virgin Radio, the Guardian, the High Court, and Apple Corps (including Neil Aspinall himself) have all got it wrong?

Anyway, from what I saw on the Yahoo link - they haven't got it wrong.... there are no Beatles tracks on there.

In all honesty, I can't see that there is much point is continuing further on this point: you are clearly happy with your interpretation & we are more than happy with ours. It's up to everyone else to make their mind up, based on the information from all available sources.

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:18 PM
Where have I insulted either you or your taste in music???????


If you look again I never insulted your taste in music it was a bit of fun with a smile


However when someone says to me they know the facts and talk down to me then I feel insulted

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:19 PM
But you are happy to think that BBCi, bbc.co.uk ,the Daily Mail, the Mirror, the Times, BBC 6 Music, Virgin Radio, the Guardian, the High Court, and Apple Corps (including Neil Aspinall himself) have all got it wrong?

Anyway, from what I saw on the Yahoo link - they haven't got it wrong.... there are no Beatles tracks on there.

In all honesty, I can't see that there is much point is continuing further on this point: you are clearly happy with your interpretation & we are more than happy with ours. It's up to everyone else to make their mind up, based on the information from all available sources.


There are 194 some karaoke yes

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:19 PM
I'm sorry wolfie But you are talking utter b******s!

how am i?

the underlying reason we have these licenses & all this copyright claptrap is becaue the artists, writers, performers, record company exec's etc, etc get paid. If they get paid for what they are owed they are generally happy regardless of how the money gets from your pocket to their pocket.

So if i am talking "small smalls" then the whole piracy / copyright laws area is a farce.. but then i thought they already were a farce.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:22 PM
how am i?

the underlying reason we have these licenses & all this copyright claptrap is becaue the artists, writers, performers, record company exec's etc, etc get paid. If they get paid for what they are owed they are generally happy regardless of how the money gets from your pocket to their pocket.

So if i am talking "small smalls" then the whole piracy / copyright laws area is a farce.. but then i thought they already were a farce.As I said

You can't bypass copyright law by forcing the money into the hands of the copyright holder.
The artists them selves might be happy to get some tax free income but the PRS won't be happy.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:24 PM
If you look again I never insulted yout taste in music it was a bit of fun with a smile It's very easy to hide behind a smilie :teeth: :)

However when someone says to me they know the facts and talk down to me then I feel insultedI do know the facts, but I didn't talk down to you (& I'm sorry if it appeared that I did) although it appears that you just have to me. :)

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:29 PM
but nothing is being "forced" anywhere..

if i pay a record shop £12.99 for an album & then all the hungry people come along & take a chunk out of that money to buy their new Jag or their new Merc or to put some more Chlorine in their swiming pools, this is no differnet than me paying a download site £1 for a track & whoever coming along & taking their cut.

We are taliing licensing here where the underlying fact bheind licenses is that you pay for music & the people behind that track get paid from the cash you have handed over, regardless whether it is to HMV, the karaoke shop, Mastermix / DMC/ CD pool, Itunes etc etc.

Once i have paid my money over the counter they can argue among themselves who gets what bit of it, it's not my problem or concern. As far as i'm concerned i've paid for the music & somewhere down the line, the artist will be able to put food on his table from it.

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:32 PM
It's very easy to hide behind a smilie :teeth: :)
I do know the facts, but I didn't talk down to you (& I'm sorry if it appeared that I did) although it appears that you just have to me. :)

For Gods Sake ..............give it a rest

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:33 PM
In which case you've turned the thread around as the last 10 pages or so have been about illegal downloads not....
if i pay a record shop £12.99 for an album & then all the hungry people come along & take a chunk out of that money to buy their new Jag or their new Merc or to put some more Chlorine in their swiming pools, this is no differnet than me paying a download site £1 for a track & whoever coming along & taking their cut.

We are taliing licensing here where the underlying fact bheind licenses is that you pay for music & the people behind that track get paid from the cash you have handed over, regardless whether it is to HMV, the karaoke shop, Mastermix / DMC/ CD pool, Itunes etc etc.

Once i have paid my money over the counter they can argue among themselves who gets what bit of it, it's not my problem or concern. As far as i'm concerned i've paid for the music & somewhere down the line, the artist will be able to put food on his table from it.

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:35 PM
I do know the facts,

NOBODY knows the facts... not even the people who impose the rules on piracy or copyright!! If you phone MCPS/ PPL etc & ask the same questions to the people on the end of the phone then you will get different answers from different people who work there.... in fact i dare say if you phone the next day & speak to a different member of staff in each of these places, then the answers on the 2nd occasion would contradict those you have from the 1st answers.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:36 PM
For Gods Sake ..............give it a restSee!

If you want to continue this then please take this to PM as I feel carrying on like this in the public forum is doing nobody any good.

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:36 PM
NOBODY knows the facts... not even the people who impose the rules on piracy or copyright!! If you phone MCPS/ PPL etc & ask the same questions to the people on the end of the phone then you will get different answers from different people who work there.... in fact i dare say if you phone the next day & speak to a different member of staff in each of these places, then the answers on the 2nd occasion would contradict those you have from the 1st answers.


SECONDED

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:39 PM
NOBODY knows the facts... not even the people who impose the rules on piracy or copyright!! If you phone MCPS/ PPL etc & ask the same questions to the people on the end of the phone then you will get different answers from different people who work there.... in fact i dare say if you phone the next day & speak to a different member of staff in each of these places, then the answers on the 2nd occasion would contradict those you have from the 1st answers.
Now you're muddying the issue We were talking about blatantly illegal download sites, be they P2P or bit torrent. Downloading music without the permission of the copyright holder is illegal

colinm345
21-06-2006, 12:40 PM
See!

If you want to continue this then please take this to PM as I feel carrying on like this in the public forum is doing nobody any good.

I dont want to carry this on anywhere as I do not want to converse with you anymore

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:42 PM
In which case you've turned the thread around as the last 10 pages or so have been about illegal downloads not....


Not at all Steve, you seem to forget, the reason i am saying this is because one person is saying it's legal & anther person is saying it's not. the basics of which are that

A) Colin is paying a service to download music & not just using a P2P site without putting some coffers into the tin

B) If the site are being paid, then as far as i'm concerned, Colin is the one in the right & the site are the ones who are now in the wrong & the licensing comes down to them As far as Colin is aware he is paying a license... if what he is paying is being used to fund international terroism instead of music licensing or copyright control, then Colin shouldn't be to blame.

C) ... if MCPS or whever go along to Colin & ask where he got the music, then surely the people they need to recoup their losses are not from Colin, but from the people who he has paid.. If they comply with MCPS (as they claim), no problem. if they are using their money under false pretences then it is they who are at fault & not the people who use that service.

D) For all you know when you buy a CD from HMV your salesman may well pocket the cash for himself & you or I would know any different, so how does this differ from the debate we are currently discussing?

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 12:50 PM
Not at all Steve, you seem to forget, the reason i am saying this is because one person is saying it's legal & anther person is saying it's not. the basics of which are that

A) Colin is paying a service to download music & not just using a P2P site without putting some coffers into the tin

B) If the site are being paid, then as far as i'm concerned, Colin is the one in the right & the site are the ones who are now in the wrong & the licensing comes down to them As far as Colin is aware he is paying a license... if what he is paying is being used to fund international terroism instead of music licensing or copyright control, then Colin shouldn't be to blame.

C) ... if MCPS or whever go along to Colin & ask where he got the music, then surely the people they need to recoup their losses are not from Colin, but from the people who he has paid.. If they comply with MCPS (as they claim), no problem. if they are using their money under false pretences then it is they who are at fault & not the people who use that service.

D) For all you know when you buy a CD from HMV your salesman may well pocket the cash for himself & you or I would know any different, so how does this differ from the debate we are currently discussing?So, (as I said earlier) have you never heard of somebody paying for stolen goods? As that is to all intents & purposes what downloading from an illegal site is.

Have you also never heard of people beig duped into paying for something that they thought was the genuine article only to find out later it was a counterfeit / bootleg?

I'm not talking about where the royalties go from a legitamate purchase, but about people making money from an illegal practice.

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 12:59 PM
but Steve, can you honestly sit there & tell me where the money from record sales goes & prove it.

As i said, you may find the salesman from the record shop is pocketing the money for himself, yet in your best interests you have intended to purchase a track legally. So who is commiting the theft? the salesman in the record shop i would of thought.

The exact same thing applies if Colin is paying his fiver a month to subscribe to his music site & they are keeping the money for themselves & giving Colin illegal downloads. Colin wuld not be the thief, but the music site.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 01:23 PM
2 points on that one.... handling stolen goods is still a crime is it not?

& any product that is not sold directly form the manufacturer will be subject to somebody along the line adding something onto of skimming something off of for their own profit, that's how capitalism works.

Wolfie
21-06-2006, 01:32 PM
2 points on that one.... handling stolen goods is still a crime is it not?

it is, however with music sites you can't honestly tell whether it is some 14 year old in his bedroom or a big corporation.

the Handling Stolen goods law is a difficult one, again it all comes down to that word "intent" if you purchased something off someone in a pub, then there is a good chance it would be stolen & you could face a problem if you play dumb & say you didn't know it was stolen in court. I'm sure we all know someone who knows a mate who went into the pub & said to someone i could do with a new TV & then a few minutes later a guy comes over & says he can get you whatever you want if you give him a few days.

Yet if you purchased stolen property from a 2nd hand shop or charity shop, or from a salesman that is going door to door with an ID card as an authorised trader, to all intents & purposes what you are buying is not "stolen" as far as you are aware, so the authorities would come down harder on the shop than they would on the person buying from it. There are big differences between "handling" & "recieving"

Ricesnaps
21-06-2006, 01:40 PM
ok guys ENOUGH!!!!

As this was my thread in the first place and I simply wanted to find out what download sites people recomended and which would satisfy my requirements, I am amazed at how this has broken into a free for all about everything other than my original post.

Could a mod please close this thread. I will go and find out for myself, although I think I've done that already.

Maybe you could take your arguments elsewhere.

Thanks

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 01:42 PM
Valid points, although the list of sites posted is comprehansive & updated regularly when new services come onto the market.

I would like to point out that, (before anyone reads it into any of my posts) I am not calling Colin a thief in any way shape or form.

Corabar Steve
21-06-2006, 01:46 PM
ok guys ENOUGH!!!!

As this was my thread in the first place and I simply wanted to find out what download sites people recomended and which would satisfy my requirements, I am amazed at how this has broken into a free for all about everything other than my original post.

Could a mod please close this thread. I will go and find out for myself, although I think I've done that already.

Maybe you could take your arguments elsewhere.

Thanks
But a list of sites has been posted & iTunes, Napster, Tesco, Woolworths, Virgin, & HMV amongst others have been recomended to you.

As you ask & you did start the thread (& I am one of the guily parties) I will close the thread for you.

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 01:48 PM
Agreed that whether or not action would be taken against someone would depend on whether they had done something knowingly, or whether they had been duped: but the legal ownership of the item in question cannot pass, so the 'stolen' item remains the property of the original owner, and there is no recompense to the person who has bought in good faith.

(and yes I know that with music you don't actually purchase the music, but the rights - ie we are talking about the ownership of intellectual property here, but the principles remain the same)

So, in our senario, even if you paid for downloads which were illegal downloads, the authorities would probably not take action against the end user as it would be very hard to prove that they were not doing so in good faith; but all the music that had been bought would still be illegal and unusable.

Corabar Entertainment
21-06-2006, 01:51 PM
With apologies for my last post (posted after Ricesnaps had requested that the thread was closed) - Not intended to ' get the last word in', but I was composing it when the last few posts were done & so wasn't aware of developments. SORRY!