Venue access Vs size of show

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

How much do you compromise on the amount of gear you use if the venue you are working in is a nightmare to gain access to?

I worked in a Hotel which is about 65-70 miles from me on Saturday and the function room is on the 1st floor, accessable by a lift, but round a few corners etc, so as the room is quite small, I took a smaller, but effective show.

In the afternoon, I pre-wired a 2 foot bar with 2 x Abstract Twister 4HPs and 2 x Led par cans. It took me about 20 minutes to make it look neat but all I had to do was plug in the CA-8 and a mains lead and I was ready.

I take my Ultimax stand already set up, so all I had to do was load that up with gear and load my other trolley and wheel them both through reception, in the lift and then through to the room on the 1st floor.

Set up time? I reckon about 20 minutes. I was out and gear packed in the van in 35 minutes. It was a long booking as I left here at just after 4pm and got home and around 3am, so I didn't want to make it longer by spending ages packing gear.

[Daryll]

Which is the main reason for me to have a second , slimline ( the stand , not me :D ) set up.
in the past , because of a pre wired trusslite . I could not have a smaller rig , unless the height of the venue forced me not to have overhead lighting.
Using 8" tops , means that I always need subs.
Sometimes it has been a complete nightmare , so now I am having the 1.2 m ultimax bars , and 1.75m of trusslite , 3 lights and maybe a couple of LED washes. and possible a pair of active cabs.

Daryll

[Excalibur]

I have a regular venue where access is lift or one flight of very good stairs.

I looked at putting wheels under the Ultimax to make life easier. Guess what?

A 4ft stand won't go in the lift! :bang: :bang:

[deltic]

I have a regular venue where access is lift or one flight of very good stairs.

I looked at putting wheels under the Ultimax to make life easier. Guess what?

A 4ft stand won't go in the lift! :bang: :bang:

micromax on wheels:zip:

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Great thread Darren and one that I thought about talking about the other day after I went to a venue with dodgy/difficult access.
Not sure if it's just pure laziness on my part but I have found that over the past few months I have been using gear that is easy and quick to set up but still has a good effect.

If I had my way and it was easier and quicker then I would use what I call my bigger system at every function but it's not always the case due to dodgy access. I find that if I pack the usual stuff (Giraffe stand and lights) in the van along with both the JBL's and Bass Bins plus the Actives then I can pick and choose what I use when I get to the venue (if I have'nt been there before). Saying that though....If the function is for 150 plus then I would'nt use the DB Techs anyway as I would'nt want to push them too much and therefore, if access was dodgy then I would have to grin and bear it.

There is one venue in particular that I go to on a regular basis that has dodgy access and I always use the same set up there because I know I can make my life easier and also be in and out in no time at all.

[ppentertainments]

micromax on wheels:zip:
Seriously, that is my stand of choice of difficult setup areas. 3 effects above, my console and amp.

I also very rarely take subs if upstairs or difficult access. If I do use them I need a roadie so do need to charge - most people not bothered tbh.

Using this setup I can get everything up in one trolley load - so long as the lift, corridors etc are big enough.

[marcus_oasisdjs]

If a venue/client wanted a large show but was up flights of stairs/awkward etc, I just charge more and hire crew! shimples

[yourdj]

I have spent three years trying to minimize set up time without compromising quality.

I think allot of DJ's (gearheads) get too into their equipment and forget about what the customer wants and go totally overboard on gear and overdo it on allot of occasions which may not be nessesary. Not only that they end up spending hours setting up, when they may not need too.

I can do it all in one now without big stairs in 20 mins to set up from my car

I have:

One big flight case on wheels holding:

- Tbar with impossiled, 2 triphase, 1 Sigma - looking for 1 more light.
- five uplighters (15 in total in seperate bag), cables, blackout cloths, lighting stand, speaker poles, other important bits, 2 extension cables.

On top of that:

- two 15inch subs
- amprack with 2 amps crossover and xtrabass
- playout system (kamkase)
- 2 speakers (although i often carry these seperate).

having said that ive been using two mackie actives this weekend and they are great for smaller venues.
Means i do not need subs or amprack thus cutting more time.


http://www.yourdj.co.uk/IMAGES/yourdj4.jpg


http://www.yourdj.co.uk/IMAGES/yourdj5.jpg


Downstairs gigs from car to set up about 20 mins with good access and 35mins upstairs venues.

[DJ INDIE]

no comprimise for me - same set up no matter where. regardless of set up time and effort. sometimes its a pain - recent gig at The Lowry hotel in manchester was a maze of lifts, corridors, and kitchens, but my set up was the same.

ached the day after though!

[Danno13]

I don't have a "standard" show as such, as I don't sell myself on gear - unless the client requests something specific I use what I deem appropriate for the venue and amount of guests.

If its up 3 flights and only a small room, there's no way I'm lugging subs up there, but if it was a 300 person event I wouldn't just try and get away with a small show - I'd build in an extra charge to cover a roadie and/or extra time needed to setup.

[Excalibur]

micromax on wheels:zip:

And well might you use that smiley! :D Since I have two cases to fit on the stand:
Mixer/Cortex/Radio mic/Keyboard and Cortex/Radio mic/Show director/Keyboard that's sadly not an option. I couldn't cope with a North-South layout, as we've discussed before. I have to be East-West.

[visualdjmax]

A very interesting thread MR T. I have also seen the error of my ways and only ever so slightly adopting the less is more approach. Well with my lighting now anyway. I even left kit flightcased in the van on Saturday. Perish the thought

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I don't have a "standard" show as such, as I don't sell myself on gear

Did anyone ask if you have a standard show then? I don't think anyone was selling themself on gear either...:confused:

[Danno13]

I didn't say anyone was, I'm just saying that I don't and hence I don't have a "standard" show, therefore if I use less it's not a case of compromising because there isn't a "standard" that I'm compromising on.

Confused yet? :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I didn't say anyone was, I'm just saying that I don't and hence I don't have a "standard" show, therefore if I use less it's not a case of compromising because there isn't a "standard" that I'm compromising on.

Confused yet? :D

Yeah....

Sorry Dan, but there must be a show that you use more than others. Call it standard or whatever you like.

Anyway, I didn't even mention a standard show. You didn't read the first post properly...


How much do you compromise on the amount of gear you use if the venue you are working in is a nightmare to gain access to?

[Mission]

My setup is as trimmed down as possible anyway but:

Most of the time the access wouldn't determine what I took in for a small room I would use the same on the ground floor as if it was on the third floor.

Big room additional Sub/subs and a couple of extra lights, which would be an extra run with the sack truck.

Something inbetween then yes, if I could get away without sub/subs and extra lights I may sacrifice them if access is a pain and could get away without using them.

If I hadn't been to the venue, then it would be a "see when I get there" job.

Having a van now, I can have the extra kit in there if I need it.

[Danno13]

Yeah....

Sorry Dan, but there must be a show that you use more than others. Call it standard or whatever you like.

Anyway, I didn't even mention a standard show. You didn't read the first post properly...

Apart from the deckstand booth, playout and amps, the rest depends totally on what I have avaliable, size of room, access to venue etc. etc. so I honestly don't have a standard apart from for venues I do regularly.

Whether you mentioned a standard show or not, mentioning compromise means there has to be a normal/standard/whatever show to start from, so it's implied.

All I'm saying, is I don't see it as compromising, I see it as matching the kit to the job in hand, and if that means factoring in difficult access then so be it.


How much do you compromise on the amount of gear you use if the venue you are working in is a nightmare to gain access to?

As much as is required, to still be setup in time without doing myself damage.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Whether you mentioned a standard show or not, mentioning compromise means there has to be a normal/standard/whatever show to start from, so it's implied.



No, compromise means taking a small show if there is difficult access. Sorry Dan, but you are starting to spoil this thread by playing word games.

[wensleydale]

How much do you compromise on the amount of gear you use if the venue you are working in is a nightmare to gain access to?

I worked in a Hotel which is about 65-70 miles from me on Saturday and the function room is on the 1st floor, accessable by a lift, but round a few corners etc, so as the room is quite small, I took a smaller, but effective show.

In the afternoon, I pre-wired a 2 foot bar with 2 x Abstract Twister 4HPs and 2 x Led par cans. It took me about 20 minutes to make it look neat but all I had to do was plug in the CA-8 and a mains lead and I was ready.

I take my Ultimax stand already set up, so all I had to do was load that up with gear and load my other trolley and wheel them both through reception, in the lift and then through to the room on the 1st floor.

Set up time? I reckon about 20 minutes. I was out and gear packed in the van in 35 minutes. It was a long booking as I left here at just after 4pm and got home and around 3am, so I didn't want to make it longer by spending ages packing gear.


Is it really a compromise though?
You've obviously put a lot of thought and effort into getting ready for the gig and it sounds like you came up with something that worked for you but also worked in the venue and meant you had a neat looking show rather than rushing to set up your normal gear and then running out of time?

For me we use the core part of our rig about 80% of the time and then add or remove other bits (lighting more than sound) depending on the venue, time available, customer requirements or budget.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Is it really a compromise though?


Yes, because it was less gear than I would normally use in a room that size. It was as effective but took less time to set up and pack down.

It was about 80-90 minutes drive and on the 1st floor, so yes it was a compromise.

[DJ INDIE]

is the reason you comprimise due to the room size or because it was a fair drive away / long hours?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

is the reason you comprimise due to the room size or because it was a fair drive away / long hours?

All of the above....

[wensleydale]

Yes, because it was less gear than I would normally use in a room that size. It was as effective but took less time to set up and pack down.

It was about 80-90 minutes drive and on the 1st floor, so yes it was a compromise.
But you have only taken one line of my post- sometimes less is more, not just in in the context of the 4 hours of the disco, but looking at the overall picture.

[Leicester Ben]

I also dont have a standard show as such and so a client would be none the wiser if I was bringing in less equipment.

Havig said for the last few months I have been simply using 2x Mackies and 2x Wizards which cant really be scaled down much more and so in Darrens situation I would have just used the above.

(I did use only 1 light once but that was because it was a small room and it was snowing outside and I couldnt be bothered to go and get the other one).

I appreciate where Darren is coming from however, if I was typically using say 6 lights, tops and subs and I had a gig with rubbish access and a long way away I would certainly cut out the subs and some lighting.

I love the fact that I can be out of a venue 20 minutes after the gig has finished and arrive 30 minutes before it starts :)

[MagicMusic]

Good thread!

On friday night I (stupidly) didn't check out the venue and instead relied on my memory which told me access was through a back door at ground level, big mistake.

The venue was a cricket club and the only access for me was up a really steep flight of stairs or a longer but more gradual walk up the front of the 'grandstand'.

To add to the awkwardness, both doors I had to go through were narrow double glass, swing door efforts.

I decided to ditch the overhead bar and a couple of lights as my allocated space was a bit on the small side anyway. It meant less trips to the car and a bit less overall weight. I've never been a fan of the overhead bar anyway and I'm thinking of leaving it home for most gigs as I only use 3 lights and they fit on a T -bar comfortably.

I don't have an option with the subs as the tops don't run without them. This isn't too much of a problem as one of the main selling points (after sound quality of course!) was that the whole system was quite lightweight and easy to carry, I can manage a sub in each hand - one visit.

Also my flat is two up and I need to store all of my gear in my house at the minute so portability and ease of transit was always forced to be high on the agenda as I need to negotiate 3 flights of stairs from my front door to the car.

So to answer the original question, do I compromise, probably in situations like friday but I start off quite small scale in the first place!

[Happy Jack]

Unreasonably narrow doorways are fun, so we have dropped any non-essentials before to save the decor where it would inappropriate to re-rack or take loose. Odds are always in favor of the ball corner against the architrave so we'd rather save our blushes.

However, there really shouldn't be any correlation between venue access and size of your show. It just smacks of laziness in my opinion. I'd take it all loose and feed it through the kitchen window if it meant the room had the coverage it required. Likewise if it was what the client had requested and paid for, regardless of how overkill it may seem.

If it is bad access to a relatively small room - some far-and-away 'breakfast room', a good 80 or 90% of instances, I'd imagine - then it's common-sense to scale it down and drop prices to suit.

[Shaun]

I often scale back on the amount of gear used if it's a particularly tricky access.

[rob1963]

I don't really compromise on the amount of gear I use, but I sometimes have to compromise on how I set it up due to space restrictions. This has included putting one or two lights on the floor on a few occasions.

The main reason for people compromising with the amount of gear they use seems to be when functions have very awkward access, which doesn't really apply to me...as I tend to turn down these gigs.

[Steve the DJ]

I often scale back on the amount of gear used if it's a particularly tricky access.

Same here, plus if it is a small space or difficult to use my S+H or an overhead.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I'd imagine - then it's common-sense to scale it down and drop prices to suit.

So the amount of gear you use reflects your prices then? Interesting.

[Vectis]

it's common-sense to scale it down and drop prices to suit.

:eek:

So the kit you're not using is sold elsewhere? Out on hire perhaps? Or on another rig?

Otherwise this policy makes no sense.


I offer a "Dinky Disco" package sold for smaller gatherings, house parties, band infill etc. but the rate is the same. It still costs the same in fuel to get there, pay whilst folks are on site. It costs the same advertising budget to land the gig, the same backoffice costs involved in billing and payment processing. It costs the same share of annual depreciation. Shall I go on?

[DJ Jules]

Otherwise this policy makes no sense.

I offer a "Dinky Disco" package sold for smaller gatherings, house parties, band infill etc. but the rate is the same. It still costs the same in fuel to get there, pay whilst folks are on site. It costs the same advertising budget to land the gig, the same backoffice costs involved in billing and payment processing. It costs the same share of annual depreciation. Shall I go on?

Unfortunately the one person that this policy makes sense for, is the client. The decision to offer a smaller package at a cheaper price usually comes down to how badly you want the business. If you're well established and can fill all of your available dates with top price gigs all of the time, then obviously you're in a good position to be able to name your price. However, if you've got dates empty in your diary, then sometimes it makes sense to offer a reduced price package (which your competitors may not) in order to get the business in.

However, the pitfalls of doing so are...

1. Do you want clients who are likely to a) either be a pain in the bum as they're out for as much for as little as possible, and/or b) may possibly even try and negotiate you down even further!

2. You run the risk of the client completely underestimating what is required to fulfil the booking, so you turn up with your "reduced package" and it's inadequate. Client isn't happy as in their eyes you've screwed it up, you could and should have taken more kit and charged more. Lose-lose situation.

3. By offering packages of equipment, clients start to view the market from a "This equipment = this price" point of view, instead of thinking about it from a service/experience/quality point of view, which is really what I think we all want our clients to consider when they book!


Julian

[rob1963]

I offer a "Dinky Disco" package sold for smaller gatherings, house parties, band infill etc. but the rate is the same. It still costs the same in fuel to get there, pay whilst folks are on site. It costs the same advertising budget to land the gig, the same backoffice costs involved in billing and payment processing. It costs the same share of annual depreciation. Shall I go on?

Yes...go on, Vectis!

How long does the dinky disco take to carry in & set up compared to your normal set up?

Presumably it's less time, in which case I can understand why someone might charge a bit less for a smaller set up which takes less of their time to set up. After all, aren't we charging for our time?

[MagicMusic]

aren't we charging for our time?

That's how I try to work. I have a base hourly rate for the actual dj set then only charge more based on the amount of preparation required / early set - up or late overtime. I would also charge more if I needed to hire extra equipment to meet the clients needs - something I haven't had to do yet.

Its all about time really, I'm amazed at how much time I have spent since starting up again. I've easily been clocking over 30 hours a week recently with disco related issues, ripping CD's, re - sourcing all of the tracks my brain tells me I have but can't be found anywhere, dealing with legalities, website etc all before a play button is hit in earnest!

Everything is starting to fall into place now and the bookings are picking up so soon it'll be less paperwork - more action! (I hope :eek: )

EDIT: I meant to add that in my opinion, it is all about selling myself, my experience and the service I offer the client so compromising on the scale of the equipment used in order to accommodate tricky / awkward venue access or set - up areas is not detrimental to the quality of my offering.

[Vectis]

Yes...go on, Vectis!

How long does the dinky disco take to carry in & set up compared to your normal set up?

Presumably it's less time, in which case I can understand why someone might charge a bit less for a smaller set up which takes less of their time to set up. After all, aren't we charging for our time?

Fair point Rob. In fairness, for the majority of gigs, it makes no difference. Most of my Dinky events are weddings, so the speeches still finish at the same time as usual, and whilst the load-in might not quite as long (we're talking 10 minutes difference btw) it just means they get extra background tracks.

Load-out time is also reduced, but not by enough to worry about. If pushed I might concede half an hour in total but no more.

[Happy Jack]

Interesting...
Well of course. Client approaches us for a system to cover 500 with walkthrough. We spec a full system and offer him a 'provisional' quote. He, of course, explains that the budget is tight. We'll say we can provide FOH but cannot provide the walkthrough for the price he wants.

We visit the venue, talk with the house tech, actually discover their in-house mid-tops are more than enough, notice access isn't great, return to the client and suggest we just reinforce the LF with our cabs, and provide the walkthrough as per the original request.

Client is happy, we are happy - fewer amps, we take sleeves; less cable, we take Peli cases; less processing, no longer need the DP448 for 4 way stereo, so we can take a Minidrive for a mono send.

Less work, less worry, less time, less equipment. Only makes sense that we charge less. Engineer's rates differ in a similar way depending on the complexity of the job in hand, and the necessary prep / programming time required for the end result.

For the disco bits the only constant in that respect is the hourly rate for playing out. If we come to some arrangement with the client whereby we end up providing less lighting, a smaller PA, whether access issues, transport, budget, coverage etc. than we may charge less. Simply because that area of our service may represent a 'downgrade' in equipment in some cases, which may - or may not - have a fairly substantial knock on effect. It is completely dependent, hence the overuse of the word 'may' in this paragraph. May.

There are some on here who work this way, so I'm not entirely sure why my post came as a surprise. Would you care to elaborate further, Darren / Vectis?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

In case you forgot, this is called the Mobile Disco Directory.

Most of what you are talking about is not relevant IMO.