Sub Help - Please!

[OllieJames]

Hi all,

I know this has been done a thousand times, but I'm need of some specific questions answering!

I'm still on the lookout for my own active sub rather than borrowing my friends when I need them.

I run Mackie SRM450 V1s (http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450/index.html)as tops, and my friends subs are Wharfedale EVP-X15PBs (http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Home/Products/POWEREDLOUDSPEAKERS/EVPXPSERIES/EVPX15PB/tabid/167/Default.aspx). When running the above speakers together, I find that the subs aren't loud enough to balance out the sound with the mackies. For bigger venues I also find they're not loud enough.

I'm looking for an active sub, (preferably one as room in the house & car is running out!) that would be loud enough for fairly large venues and would work well with the mackies (i.e. be powerful enough to have a good bass presence.

I've been looking at the DB Sub15 (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/db_technologies/sub_15), the DB Sub15D (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/db_technologies/SUB15_D) and the RCF ART705AS (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/rcf/art705as).

Having looked at the specs, It seems like the DB subs would be louder than the RCF, and the wattage is the same on all 3. One thing I don't understand though is what's meant by Design/Woofer: Band-pass. What does band-pass mean in the sub woofer sense?

Another thing I'd like (which may sound stupid) is a sub that can give real thumping bass rather than just a wash of bass... I think that makes sense lol. I heard a sub in my local DJ store the other week which sounded nice, but wasn't punchy enough.

Final question - I've heard of some DJs hiding a sub under their deckstand. How?! I know there's no way I could fit a 15" sub under my deckstand... What are the effects of having a sub on it's side under the deckstand? Bad idea?

Thanks,
Ollie

[Corabar Steve]

What are the effects of having a sub on it's side under the deckstand? Bad idea?
The music will run sideways.

No, there is no noticeable effect on the sound if you put a bass cab on it's side (due to the nature of low frequency sound waves) & as it will be under your deck stand there's no need to worry about aesthetics

[deltic]

band pass is a type of filter only letting through a specific range of frequencies,or at least thats how i understand it

[OllieJames]

The music will run sideways.

No, there is no noticeable effect on the sound if you put a bass cab on it's side (due to the nature of low frequency sound waves) & as it will be under your deck stand there's no need to worry about aesthetics

:Laugh: Hahaha! Good one ;) :D

Okay thanks Steve.


band pass is a type of filter only letting through a specific range of frequencies,or at least thats how i understand it

Yeah, I understand about band pass (allowing higher frequences to the tops etc) but didn't know if it had a different meaning for subs?

[CRAZY K]

Hi all,

I know this has been done a thousand times, but I'm need of some specific questions answering!

I'm still on the lookout for my own active sub rather than borrowing my friends when I need them.

I run Mackie SRM450 V1s (http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450/index.html)as tops, and my friends subs are Wharfedale EVP-X15PBs (http://www.wharfedalepro.com/Home/Products/POWEREDLOUDSPEAKERS/EVPXPSERIES/EVPX15PB/tabid/167/Default.aspx). When running the above speakers together, I find that the subs aren't loud enough to balance out the sound with the mackies. For bigger venues I also find they're not loud enough.

I'm looking for an active sub, (preferably one as room in the house & car is running out!) that would be loud enough for fairly large venues and would work well with the mackies (i.e. be powerful enough to have a good bass presence.

I've been looking at the DB Sub15 (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/db_technologies/sub_15), the DB Sub15D (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/db_technologies/SUB15_D) and the RCF ART705AS (http://www.decks.co.uk/products/rcf/art705as).

Having looked at the specs, It seems like the DB subs would be louder than the RCF, and the wattage is the same on all 3. One thing I don't understand though is what's meant by Design/Woofer: Band-pass. What does band-pass mean in the sub woofer sense?

Another thing I'd like (which may sound stupid) is a sub that can give real thumping bass rather than just a wash of bass... I think that makes sense lol. I heard a sub in my local DJ store the other week which sounded nice, but wasn't punchy enough.

Final question - I've heard of some DJs hiding a sub under their deckstand. How?! I know there's no way I could fit a 15" sub under my deckstand... What are the effects of having a sub on it's side under the deckstand? Bad idea?

Thanks,
Ollie

Havent you been out with Matt ( Spin ) to listen to his db sub:confused:

Ive been there;)

CRAZY K

[yourdj]

I have a friend selling an active mackie sub. Same as this similar price:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150418611496&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://www.malwilliams.com/

For more budget the Tapco thump sub range would probably compliments them as they are made by mackie.

Hiding the sub baffles people who are interested in sound stuff as they always say wow this sound great for two small tops.
dont put any drinks on it though as they wont last long.

[CRAZY K]

Hiding the sub baffles people who are interested in sound stuff as they always say wow this sound great for two small tops.


Hmmm cant know much if they dont work that one out quickly:confused:

[OllieJames]

Havent you been out with Matt ( Spin ) to listen to his db sub:confused:

Ive been there;)

CRAZY K

Yes I have, but could really do with hearing one with my mackie tops. I'm also open to advice/ideas from other members too - so before I buy anything, just interested in other people's opinions :)

Matt's sub does sound nice, which is why I've considered it :)

[DJ INDIE]

Ollie, if you're looking for a tighter bass, it may be worth experimenting with different eq settings and crossover settings to tighten it. Costs nothing to try and will help you get the desired sound ie a punch rather than a wash.

When setting your sound in this case turn your tops right down then your subs up. Then eq it to get a nice punchy sound. Then when happy start turning the volume of the tops up until it sounds balanced.

Just a temporary fix, but might help.

[DJ James Lake]

If you want to hear the DBsub15d (which are the newer digital version of the sub matthew has) with mackies you can always come and listen to mine Ollie as i have exactly that setup.

I run 2 SRM450mkII's with 2 DB sub15D subs they run beautifully together. I quite often run with just the one sub, but with 2 it really kicks.

[OllieJames]

Ollie, if you're looking for a tighter bass, it may be worth experimenting with different eq settings and crossover settings to tighten it. Costs nothing to try and will help you get the desired sound ie a punch rather than a wash.

When setting your sound in this case turn your tops right down then your subs up. Then eq it to get a nice punchy sound. Then when happy start turning the volume of the tops up until it sounds balanced.

Just a temporary fix, but might help.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for that! My school has just bought a DBX Driverack and it makes a lot of difference to the sound system at school (JBL MRX range tops & subs). I had considered getting a Loudspeaker Management System to help with the frequencies (EQ/Crossover). Would this be worth a shot? Although this is a fix for the sound, I have had some occasions when I'm unable to use the subs due to my mate needing them. So really, I could do with my own sub(s) anyway.

[paulg]

I've a pair of Db sub15D's.

They are OK but the claimed 133db output seems to be very, very overstated. Two of them are no match for my 18" HK audio powered sub. In all, I found the Db's disappointing.

With hindsight, I wish I'd shopped around before spending £1500 on a pair.

[OllieJames]

I've a pair of Db sub15D's.

They are OK but the claimed 133db output seems to be very, very overstated. Two of them are no match for my 18" HK audio powered sub. In all, I found the Db's disappointing.

With hindsight, I wish I'd shopped around before spending £1500 on a pair.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. It's opinions like this that I'm interested in, as I know people can have vastly different opinions on each sub.

As I said in my earlier post; It's essential FOR ME that:

- it's just a single ACTIVE sub
- it's loud enough to be used with two mackies.

I don't want to have bought one sub to find out that actually, I would have needed two, which transport wise is not possible.

[DJ James Lake]

I've a pair of Db sub15D's.

They are OK but the claimed 133db output seems to be very, very overstated. Two of them are no match for my 18" HK audio powered sub. In all, I found the Db's disappointing.

With hindsight, I wish I'd shopped around before spending £1500 on a pair.

I'd actually disagree the output pretty accurate compared with other systems, the bass will always be different than from an 18" sub. There are benefits to both 18" and 15" it depends on the sound you want.

Ollie the DBs will certainly give you more than enough bass for any venue you will do round here and are a very good match for the mackies.

[OllieJames]

I'd actually disagree the output pretty accurate compared with other systems, the bass will always be different than from an 18" sub. There are benefits to both 18" and 15" it depends on the sound you want.

Ollie the DBs will certainly give you more than enough bass for any venue you will do round here and are a very good match for the mackies.

Hey James,

Thanks for your input :)

I understand you use two DBs, but would one be enough for most venues? As I've said, space is an issue until I can afford a van & to be insured on one!

[DJ INDIE]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for that! My school has just bought a DBX Driverack and it makes a lot of difference to the sound system at school (JBL MRX range tops & subs). I had considered getting a Loudspeaker Management System to help with the frequencies (EQ/Crossover). Would this be worth a shot? Although this is a fix for the sound, I have had some occasions when I'm unable to use the subs due to my mate needing them. So really, I could do with my own sub(s) anyway.

hi ollie,

id definitely recommend having a read of eq settings and applying them via an equaliser or a crossover (although crossovers can be a mine field) have a look on google etc to see what EQ settings are recommended for different types of music and try applying them.

i know this is a world of difference from bass guitar playing, but its amazing what some subtle eq can do to the bass response and i think it would help tighten the bass if thats what youre after - with the same bass guitar amp and cab and just an eq i can go from 60s 'woolly' bass to crystal clear slap bass to thumping metal bass - completely different sounds. I suppose what im saying is there may have been more factors than the good punchy sub you heard than just the sub itself.

also crossover wise you could control how much 'bass and mids' went to the subs and the tops and possibly even things out that way.


Im kinda going off topic now, but in every sub/top set up ive had ive always had to tinker around to find a nice balance - volume and sound wise - ive never turned them both to full and theyve been in harmony, i would suspect if thats what your after then Mackie would probably suggest some matching subs? you could look at the spec of those and see what else is out there of a similar spec?

[DJ James Lake]

Hey James,

Thanks for your input :)

I understand you use two DBs, but would one be enough for most venues? As I've said, space is an issue until I can afford a van & to be insured on one!

Yes no problem, easily more than enough, I only use 2 for really big rooms and a lot of that is because I prefer the balanced setup of tops on subs, rather than the need for more bass. I tend to turn them down a lot more when using both and the bass from 2 is very pokey.

You will find that most of the time you probably have to back the bass off from the DB even with the one most of the time.

[Charlie Brown]

Ollie - for the record.

Whatever you buy - I'm buying too. :sj:

[Cj_The_Dj]

what about one of these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-GVX-SUB18P-Active-18-Sub-Bass-Bin-Inc-Crossover_W0QQitemZ310198532745QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item483945fa8 9

[A1DL]

what about one of these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gemini-GVX-SUB18P-Active-18-Sub-Bass-Bin-Inc-Crossover_W0QQitemZ310198532745QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item483945fa8 9


That should win an award for most grossly exagerrated specs

138dB..... 37hz !!

I'm guessing 138 is a calculation based on pmpo sustainable for 2 nanoseconds whilst assuming zero power compression (i.e. a completely unrealistic and pointless scenario) and that the 37hz is rolloff at -30dB or something equally daft.

Still, the people this type of box appeals to are the type that can "hear" watts and the big 2,000 number boasted will enhance their male pride. The power of the marketing dept...

[Cj_The_Dj]

That should win an award for most grossly exagerrated specs

138dB..... 37hz !!

I'm guessing 138 is a calculation based on pmpo sustainable for 2 nanoseconds whilst assuming zero power compression (i.e. a completely unrealistic and pointless scenario) and that the 37hz is rolloff at -30dB or something equally daft.

Still, the people this type of box appeals to are the type that can "hear" watts and the big 2,000 number boasted will enhance their male pride. The power of the marketing dept...

you no your stuff don't you lol

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/15-ACTIVE-W-Audio-600w-RMS-Bass-Bin-Sub_W0QQitemZ380169264195QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Con Elec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item5883da9c43

what are these like, prolights website says 600w max but this guy says 600w rms i mailed him and he says there defainly 600w rms and prolights got it wrong?

[Tom]

This was an 18th I did outside with 2 Mackies 450v2 and 1 db sub 15.

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb129/tommyboy6996/th_24052009016.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/albums/bb129/tommyboy6996/?action=view&current=24052009016.flv)

Sounds better with headphones or speakers.

[A1DL]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/15-ACTIVE-W-Audio-600w-RMS-Bass-Bin-Sub_W0QQitemZ380169264195QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Con Elec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item5883da9c43

what are these like, prolights website says 600w max but this guy says 600w rms i mailed him and he says there defainly 600w rms and prolights got it wrong?


Why does it matter either way CJ ? It's a powered box, therefore you're not amp matching it.

Let's cut to the chase... read the write-up..."Real Slim Davey" says "they really rock because they are 600w and recommends them for nightclub installs."

Will the real slim davey please stand up...


... and walk briskly off the end of the pier because he's clueless cretin.

[OllieJames]

Thanks for your help, Tony.

CJ - I don't really want to run a gemini sub with mackie tops? I'd much rather spend more and buy a higher quality sub (DB, Mackie, RCF) to accompany them.

Thanks for all your feedback so far.

[Cj_The_Dj]

Why does it matter either way CJ ? It's a powered box, therefore you're not amp matching it.

Let's cut to the chase... read the write-up..."Real Slim Davey" says "they really rock because they are 600w and recommends them for nightclub installs."

Will the real slim davey please stand up...


... and walk briskly off the end of the pier because he's clueless cretin.


Reason is i want somthing as loud or louder than my current setup (got to be active)

[A1DL]

Reason is i want somthing as loud or louder than my current setup (got to be active)

The wattage of the driver is not going to help determine that though, is it?

And the wattage of the driver in a powered box is only of any interest when working out power draw, as you are not having to match a suitable amplifier to the box as there's already one built in.

How loud is your current set up?

As a firm entry level box, which will suffer from more power being dissipated as heat than a professional box, I would guess the realistic continuous spl @ 1m to be around the ~124dB mark. The 130dB quoted in the specs is ridiculous as it is based on input power to the transducer of >1,200w and has no power compression factor included. Budget manufacturers are notorious at this trait. If you buy a cheap car that shows 140mph on the far right of the dial, it might do 80 on a good day with the wind behind it, and will probably rattle in the process.

[Happy Jack]

What does band-pass mean in the sub woofer sense?

Without going on too much about specific Thiele / Small parameters, band-pass designs take advantage of the inherent property that allow for a trade-off between efficiency - or S factor - and bandwidth.

Terminology crosses over from filter circuitry and AC theory, as a bandpass cabinet will usually be accompanied with the rate of frequency rolloff, described in 'orders'. Search Wikipedia for Bode plots.

It it's simplest terms, the higher the 'order', the steeper the rolloff slope, so the narrower the pass-band and the more efficient the cabinet. Paying attention to the internal dimensions, both ported and / or the sealed chambers, Vf, Vr and port length, as well the specific driver Thiele / Small parameters - many of the 'best' cabinets were designed with certain drivers in mind - you are able to design a bin that can drop fairly low @ high SPL with a relatively small footprint.

[CRAZY K]

Without going on too much about specific Thiele / Small parameters, band-pass designs take advantage of the inherent property that allow for a trade-off between efficiency - or S factor - and bandwidth.

Terminology crosses over from filter circuitry and AC theory, as a bandpass cabinet will usually be accompanied with the rate of frequency rolloff, described in 'orders'. Search Wikipedia for Bode plots.

It it's simplest terms, the higher the 'order', the steeper the rolloff slope, so the narrower the pass-band and the more efficient the cabinet. Paying attention to the internal dimensions, both ported and / or the sealed chambers, Vf, Vr and port length, as well the specific driver Thiele / Small parameters - many of the 'best' cabinets were designed with certain drivers in mind - you are able to design a bin that can drop fairly low @ high SPL with a relatively small footprint.

Crikey this sounds like the Blue Room--

Is it possible to talk more simply so us mere Entertainers can understand :confused:

:sofa: :sofa: :sofa: :sofa: :sofa:

[paulg]

Just to clarify my previous comment about DB subs. It's a simple issue - they don't move enough air. They are a little disappointing.

One is enough in a small room - your average pub lounge gig, but then again you might get away with just a pair of tops with a bit of EQ'ing.

One in a small to medium WMC is very borderline. The bass won't carry much beyond the first third of the room. This is a real issue with the DB band pass design.

Two in a larger WMC is not enough by a long, long way whereas my HK sub coped admirably.

Four of them stacked as Db recommend somehow sounds awful (we've trialled this set up).

On the plus side, they are very light and compact but so are two empty shoeboxes.

We've found that they can perform quite well but only at very specific frequencies. This is our main dislike of them. They are not an all round bass cab for DJ's and are probably suited to bands.

Try listening to someone using them at a gig. You'll probably hear what I mean.

If you still want to buy DB 15D's - mine might be for sale, unmarked, including covers (all about 3 months old) and with original boxes and warranty.

This was not the best advert for selling them though!!

[CRAZY K]

One in a small to medium WMC is very borderline. The bass won't carry much beyond the first third of the room.


Might that actually be a bonus--the dancers down the front enjoying the sound---the people at the back overjoyed theres no thudding bass end;) and even possibly not have to scream and shout:)

Obviously a problem if everyone dances at the back of the room though:eek:

I have my first WMC for a while coming up soon with Scott SJS--should be interesting;)

[OllieJames]

Some vastly different opinions going on here!

It sounds like I need to hear one DB Sub15 with my Mackies to really hear (see) whether I like it, and if it's the right one for me. I'm after something loud, and punchy (guess you could call it thumping) which some people say the DB can do, and others say it can't.

Any guys on here use the RCF? What do you think?

Cheers

[Happy Jack]

Crikey this sounds like the Blue Room--
Is it possible to talk more simply so us mere Entertainers can understand :confused:

Bandpass -
- Relatively Compact
- High Output / SPL
- Drops Low
- Minimal Distortion
- Narrow Passband

I think it is much more interesting to find out what determines those properties, but that seems to be the sum of it!

[DJ James Lake]

Just to clarify my previous comment about DB subs. It's a simple issue - they don't move enough air. They are a little disappointing.

One is enough in a small room - your average pub lounge gig, but then again you might get away with just a pair of tops with a bit of EQ'ing.

One in a small to medium WMC is very borderline. The bass won't carry much beyond the first third of the room. This is a real issue with the DB band pass design.

Two in a larger WMC is not enough by a long, long way whereas my HK sub coped admirably.

Four of them stacked as Db recommend somehow sounds awful (we've trialled this set up).

On the plus side, they are very light and compact but so are two empty shoeboxes.

We've found that they can perform quite well but only at very specific frequencies. This is our main dislike of them. They are not an all round bass cab for DJ's and are probably suited to bands.

Try listening to someone using them at a gig. You'll probably hear what I mean.

If you still want to buy DB 15D's - mine might be for sale, unmarked, including covers (all about 3 months old) and with original boxes and warranty.

This was not the best advert for selling them though!!

Sorry but I totally disagree, I have been running either 1 or 2 at functions since december and not once been disapointed with the amount of bass, in fact if anything I have had to knock the bass off more than with my old setup which ran 8 15" drivers and that varies from small to very large function rooms in the same area as Ollie works

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Sorry but I totally disagree, I have been running either 1 or 2 at functions since december and not once been disapointed with the amount of bass, in fact if anything I have had to knock the bass off more than with my old setup which ran 8 15" drivers and that varies from small to very large function rooms in the same area as Ollie works

But are you getting this opinion from behind the decks James?

[spin mobile disco]

No I agree with James I heard his setup as christmas and it was very bass heavy. I was using the standard sub 15 and have no problems running 1 with over 250 people. And that opinion is held from listening from far end of rooms and outside of rooms as well.

[spin mobile disco]

Ooh and p.m me a price for your DB subs please I may be interested.

[OllieJames]

No I agree with James I heard his setup as christmas and it was very bass heavy. I was using the standard sub 15 and have no problems running 1 with over 250 people. And that opinion is held from listening from far end of rooms and outside of rooms as well.

Thanks for your input Matt!

I'd be interested in hearing your sub again soon actually, to really see what it sounds like, if that would be possible. From memory your Sub15 sounded really nice, but I could do with my memory being jogged a bit!

I tried to ring you yesterday actually, but failed to get through!

[spin mobile disco]

New phone Ollie sorry about that same number but forgot to chnage the sim over all working now. Going into hospital in 2 weeks and have no gigs prior at the moment but if one comes up I will invite you over for a listen.

[DJ James Lake]

But are you getting this opinion from behind the decks James?

Sorry dont follow you Darren.

[DJ James Lake]

New phone Ollie sorry about that same number but forgot to chnage the sim over all working now. Going into hospital in 2 weeks and have no gigs prior at the moment but if one comes up I will invite you over for a listen.

that'll be why you havent been answering then :)

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Sorry dont follow you Darren.

Generally, bass is a lot louder behind the decks for some reason.

I was asking if you had this opinion because you were listening from behind the decks?

[OllieJames]

Spoken to Matt, and am going to have a listen to his sub at a gig in the near future. Having looked at the specs, there doesn't seem much difference between the Sub15 & Sub15D...

[DJ James Lake]

Generally, bass is a lot louder behind the decks for some reason.

I was asking if you had this opinion because you were listening from behind the decks?

No its not my opinion, I am finding that clients are asking for the bass to be turned down a lot more than with my previous system which had a lot more power.

[DJ James Lake]

Spoken to Matt, and am going to have a listen to his sub at a gig in the near future. Having looked at the specs, there doesn't seem much difference between the Sub15 & Sub15D...

There isnt a great deal off difference except the fact the 15d uses a digital amp and draws a lot less power. If I can remember rightly matts is a bit bigger a box than the 15d as well as the front panels are totally different but thats cosmetic.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

No its not my opinion, I am finding that clients are asking for the bass to be turned down a lot more than with my previous system which had a lot more power.

Doesn't really mean a lot in this respect then as clients will have different ideas of what is bassy and what isn't.

[DJ James Lake]

Doesn't really mean a lot in this respect then as clients will have different ideas of what is bassy and what isn't.

I think it does totally as its in the same venues as I have done with the old system and with the same clients.

[A1DL]

Generally, bass is a lot louder behind the decks for some reason.


LF is more apparent on stage as it is omnidirectional whereas the higher frequencies are directional. If your mons are fairly loud, this goes a long way to reducing the effect. Alternatively if money and vehicle fill are no objective, look at CSA. But bear in mind 3 boxes running in a CSA won't be as loud as just two facing forward, as there will be "some" front cancellation too.

Bedtime reading linky: http://www.dbaudio.com/pub/files/TI330_E.PDF

[Cj_The_Dj]

I the winning bidder of this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180474751857&_trksid=p2759.l1259

Is it a good deal?

[spin mobile disco]

Gice or take it depends on condition. If very good its a good price if poor its a poor price. Same as everything really. Not bad subs though I didnt like the weight of them hence why I went for the DB option.
Sorry James yeah phone is pain in the <forum censor activated - please edit your post><forum censor activated - please edit your post><forum censor activated - please edit your post><forum censor activated - please edit your post> at the moment try the home line if you get stuck.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Not bad subs...lmao.