Old music - new formats...opinions please

[funkymook]

I love 60's Garage, R'n'B, Hammond etc. Got a good collection of tunes and have done a few gigs where I've played this all night (with a bit of motown, funk and ska thrown in as well). I'd like to get more bookings for this.

Now all the people I've seen playing this style of music (mainly at specialist nights) appear to using the original vinyl - I don't have the vinyl,
nor the time and money to build a collection, so use cd's and mp3's.

I wouldn't dream of trying to play at any specialist function where I know vinyl would be expected (scooter rallies, Mod conventions etc.) but what would you think if you turned up at a pubs function room where someone had arranged their own night advertising this sort of music and they were using cd's?

And out of interest, saw a Mod DJ the other night and he was using what looked like a compact twin turntable unit - it was all in one with a mixer, about 3-4 foot wide - very retro looking - any ideas what it might have been, make/model? (Guessing a 1960's/70's DJ unit) of some sort.

[STEVE HANLEY]

Don't know much about the music you refer to,not my cup of tea,but why would you be expected to play vinyl at some of these functions????:confused:

[yourdj]

I would mod (excuse the pun) a couple of scooters and make a deck stand from them?

Least you have the mirrors to check your hair throughout the night.

You could use the headlights for effects on the front.
Full beam them for a strobe effect :p

That would be different?

[Megamix]

well I went to a soul weekend and it was mostly (to my disappointment) northern soul and the scratching of authentic 45s irritated me - I'm glad its disappearing - so for vinyl at discos - "I'm ooot"

[Corabar Steve]

Don't know much about the music you refer to,not my cup of tea,but why would you be expected to play vinyl at some of these functions????:confused:
Because it's bloody hard to get it on CD or download.

[STEVE HANLEY]

Because it's bloody hard to get it on CD or download.

I bow to your knowledge of this genre Steve Like I said I know little or nothing about it.

But I got the impression he had it all on CD or digital format, but couldn't use it as it would be frowned upon

[Corabar Steve]

I've never given a monkeys what I play it on.

Just wish I could play it more often.

It's becoming a lot easier to get digitally eMusic have a good selection.

[Javlingames]

I love 60's Garage, R'n'B, Hammond etc. Got a good collection of tunes and have done a few gigs where I've played this all night (with a bit of motown, funk and ska thrown in as well). I'd like to get more bookings for this.

Now all the people I've seen playing this style of music (mainly at specialist nights) appear to using the original vinyl - I don't have the vinyl,
nor the time and money to build a collection, so use cd's and mp3's.

I wouldn't dream of trying to play at any specialist function where I know vinyl would be expected (scooter rallies, Mod conventions etc.) but what would you think if you turned up at a pubs function room where someone had arranged their own night advertising this sort of music and they were using cd's?

And out of interest, saw a Mod DJ the other night and he was using what looked like a compact twin turntable unit - it was all in one with a mixer, about 3-4 foot wide - very retro looking - any ideas what it might have been, make/model? (Guessing a 1960's/70's DJ unit) of some sort.

My friend you need serato in your life. Look at this link. www.scratchlive.net
All the famous hip hop dj's use it, they keep their tunes on their laptop but manipulate them with real timecoded vinyl.

[DJ James Lake]

My friend you need serato in your life. Look at this link. www.scratchlive.net
All the famous hip hop dj's use it, they keep their tunes on their laptop but manipulate them with real timecoded vinyl.

Or Traktor and Virtual DJ and a few others

[Corabar Steve]

My friend you need serato in your life. Look at this link. www.scratchlive.net (http://www.scratchlive.net)
All the famous hip hop dj's use it, they keep their tunes on their laptop but manipulate them with real timecoded vinyl.
Do you know anything about the genres concerned? There is no use for beat mixing or manipulation.

All you need is a play button & faders.

[Excalibur]

Do you know anything about the genres concerned? There is no use for bet mixing or manipulation.

All you need is a play button & faders.

'S all I ever need. :o :sofa:

[DJ James Lake]

Do you know anything about the genres concerned? There is no use for beat mixing or manipulation.

All you need is a play button & faders.

That wasnt the point though, he was saying his client prefer to see vinyl being used, no it isnt need but more expected, thats where a dvs system gives the best of both worlds

[jeff wood]

I think the point is,,

If the DJ has the vinyl,, then he's "got" the song...

Its not the same using cd's or pc's

as you dont really have to have gone to any trouble to get the songs..

by playing Vinyl, it kind of tells everyone that youve gone to the trouble and effort to aquire the tunes..


this is something I really miss..

back in the day,,,,half of the skill of the dj was actually getting hold of the tunes,,

now, that skill is all but gone..



ps, dont spose many will understand what im talking about:D

[spin mobile disco]

Actually I do know as I do a lot of Northern soul, soul, motown nights. I have never had i commented against me because I used digital or cd before. And the definition in some cases is higher and the afformentioned scratching is absent I don't think the vinyl will be missed much at these events. If you want to make it look good though you could always buy 2 old 12" records and stick them on a couple of motors and fake it lol .

[Corabar Steve]

That wasnt the point though, he was saying his client prefer to see vinyl being used, no it isnt need but more expected, thats where a dvs system gives the best of both worlds
But all it is is an illusion, nothing more.

The only point of having stuff of those genres on vinyl is that was the format it was originally released on. It's elitism on behalf of the DJ.

I think the point is,,

If the DJ has the vinyl,, then he's "got" the song...

Its not the same using cd's or pc's

as you dont really have to have gone to any trouble to get the songs..

by playing Vinyl, it kind of tells everyone that youve gone to the trouble and effort to aquire the tunes..


this is something I really miss..

back in the day,,,,half of the skill of the dj was actually getting hold of the tunes,,

now, that skill is all but gone..



ps, dont spose many will understand what im talking about:D
It never seemed to bother anyone when I was playing 60s Garage, R'n'B, Rock 'n' Roll, Rockabilly, Psychobilly & 60s / 70s Ska at the Ace Cafe. The punters really couldn't give a monkeys what format it's on as long as they hear what they want to listen to. It could be on wax cylinder for all they care.

& believe me, tracking down downloads / CDs of those genres can & does take some effort.

Thank heavens for http://www.raucousrecords.com/default.aspx

[funkymook]

I think the point is,,

If the DJ has the vinyl,, then he's "got" the song...

Its not the same using cd's or pc's

as you dont really have to have gone to any trouble to get the songs..

by playing Vinyl, it kind of tells everyone that youve gone to the trouble and effort to aquire the tunes..


this is something I really miss..

back in the day,,,,half of the skill of the dj was actually getting hold of the tunes,,

now, that skill is all but gone..

ps, dont spose many will understand what im talking about:D

I totally understand what you're saying, and I agree - as I said in my original post I have the greatest respect for the time and effort taken to acquire the songs. But I do love the music and have spent a long time getting my collection together on CD (believe me it's not just a few Nugget or Pebbles compilations). I suppose what I'm looking for is the confidence to say 'this is what I play, and this is what I play it on' without feeling the need to resort to the 'it's the music, not the format' argument - or even 'the original Mod(ernists) would have used the latest, cutting edge equipment available'.

I'll continue and just be prepared to say to any negative comments about using cd's 'you're right, but I don't have the vinyl, but love the music - surely that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to play it?' (knowing my luck 'yes it does' will probably be the answer!)

Appreciate everyone's views on the subject, to be honest I'm probably worrying too much about it - so far no one has said anything. I'm starting to get a few more bookings from people into this music, but I'm sure those who care that much won't book me anyway!

[funkymook]

Thanks Steve - that really helps hearing it from someone who's been there and done it.

mmm, methinks I'll have to start putting some psychobilly in my sets as well - there's a fair few old Klub Foot people in my area (I'm next door to Feltham, home of the Guana Batz) - it's gonna get messy!

[DJ James Lake]

But all it is is an illusion, nothing more.

Yes it is but thats what may be expected to be seen, the same way as clients wanting retro discos may expect to see the dreaded light screens...thats what they think makes it retro.

If the client only want the music then thats fine others also want to whole retro look and feel and pay very well for it.

[Corabar Steve]

Thanks Steve - that really helps hearing it from someone who's been there and done it.

mmm, methinks I'll have to start putting some psychobilly in my sets as well - there's a fair few old Klub Foot people in my area (I'm next door to Feltham, home of the Guana Batz) - it's gonna get messy!
I used to be a Klub Footer (well the Clarendon in general). I'd only stick Psychobilly in if the crowd is right.

I was down your way yesterday (a couple of calls on Bath Road)


Yes it is but thats what may be expected to be seen, the same way as clients wanting retro discos may expect to see the dreaded light screens...thats what they think makes it retro.

If the client only want the music then thats fine others also want to whole retro look and feel and pay very well for it.
Without wishing to sound like I'm being funny, have you actually done a gig like the one in question?

It sounds to me like you're basing your reply on what you think should be going on as opposed to what would or does.

[Javlingames]

I love 60's Garage, R'n'B, Hammond etc. Got a good collection of tunes and have done a few gigs where I've played this all night (with a bit of motown, funk and ska thrown in as well). I'd like to get more bookings for this.

Now all the people I've seen playing this style of music (mainly at specialist nights) appear to using the original vinyl - I don't have the vinyl,
nor the time and money to build a collection, so use cd's and mp3's.

I wouldn't dream of trying to play at any specialist function where I know vinyl would be expected (scooter rallies, Mod conventions etc.) but what would you think if you turned up at a pubs function room where someone had arranged their own night advertising this sort of music and they were using cd's?

And out of interest, saw a Mod DJ the other night and he was using what looked like a compact twin turntable unit - it was all in one with a mixer, about 3-4 foot wide - very retro looking - any ideas what it might have been, make/model? (Guessing a 1960's/70's DJ unit) of some sort.


If you use traktor or Serato it will appear to the crowd that you are using vinyl. I get comments all the time like 'great to see a dj using vinyl'.

So if you are worried how it will look if you just play cd's or mp3's and you dont have the time or money to build a vinyl collection, a dvs system would suit you down to the ground. Whether you want to just push play or get creative it sounds like the perfect solution to your problem.

[Javlingames]

Do you know anything about the genres concerned? There is no use for beat mixing or manipulation.

All you need is a play button & faders.

The thread is titled 'old music, new formats'

Who said there was use for beatmixing. Manipulation means controlling the vinyl ie cuing .

[Corabar Steve]

The thread is titled 'old music, new formats'

Who said there was use for beatmixing. Manipulation means controlling the vinyl ie cuing .


But all it is is an illusion, nothing more.


If you use traktor or Serato it will appear to the crowd that you are using vinyl. I get comments all the time like 'great to see a dj using vinyl'.
Don't they wonder why you only have 2 records?

[Javlingames]

Nope, Ive been using serato for 5 years and nobody has ever said anything about the same records being on the decks

[DJ James Lake]

Without wishing to sound like I'm being funny, have you actually done a gig like the one in question?

It sounds to me like you're basing your reply on what you think should be going on as opposed to what would or does.

Yes plenty, i keep my SL1210s for just that reason. I've been doing so for the last 27 years.

My reply was aimed at others and a general perception

[Corabar Steve]

What? 60s Garage, mod & R'n'B?

Funny how you've never mentioned this when I've talked about those genres in the past then.

[DJ James Lake]

What? 60s Garage, mod & R'n'B?

Funny how you've never mentioned this when I've talked about those genres in the past then.

I give up, the nitpicking is really starting to annoy me, I think I've been around the circuit for long enough to know what i'm talking about, this is getting ridiculous.

Whats the point of answering threads for advice???

[Corabar Steve]

I'm not nitpicking, I asked a direct question.

Have you done 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B gigs?

Not exactly hard to figure out if you have or not.


I've done gigs like this (with CDs & with HD2500s, never vinyl as I don't have a lot of it on vinyl & what I have, I also have on CD & MP3 (both ripped & downloaded)) I've also been to similar gigs where the DJs have used vinyl & / or CDs. I guess it depends on the format the DJ has his / her collestion on & whether or not they've bothered moving with the times (not to say made things a lot easier for themselves) & "upgraded" to a more modern format.

Although I have to say that if somebody was using a more modern format & masquerading as a vinyl DJ in such a fashion, I would feel slightly cheated. If you can see it's CDs & / or MP3s from the off there's no problem.

[DJ James Lake]

I'm not nitpicking, I asked a direct question.

Have you done 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B gigs?

Not exactly hard to figure out if you have or not.


I've done gigs like this (with CDs & with HD2500s, never vinyl as I don't have a lot of it on vinyl & what I have, I also have on CD & MP3 (both ripped & downloaded)) I've also been to similar gigs where the DJs have used vinyl & / or CDs. I guess it depends on the format the DJ has his / her collestion on & whether or not they've bothered moving with the times (not to say made things a lot easier for themselves) & "upgraded" to a more modern format.


I have done all sorts of retro themed nights over the last 27 years it doesn't matter about the genre they are all treated the same in my books. If i get booked for themed night and vinyl was used the technics come out. All others I use the CDJs. I still have my vinyl collection but changed over to dvs years ago because the clients like to still see a dj using turntables for retro nights and pay well for it. They never notice I'm not swapping the vinyl but they do see me using vinyl and they are happy.

Yes it could be done with any form of media I am not arguing that and from a dj point of view makes no difference at all. Its client perception which is what this thread is about in the first place.

The number of clients who comment about how nice it is to see a proper dj (there words not mine) cant be ignored, and it gets me more bookings so I am not going to complain.

I'm not sure if you have ever used a DVS system but its exactly the same as using the original vinyl except you dont have to keep swapping vinyls. Everything else is the same

[Corabar Steve]

I have done all sorts of retro themed nights over the last 27 years
I think we've hit the key phrase. There's a big difference between a themed night & a genre gig.

[DJ James Lake]

I think we've hit the key phrase. There's a big difference between a themed night & a genre gig.

Both can be either I dont get your point

[Corabar Steve]

A themed night would be just that, a night with say... a 60s theme & is a sight easier to bluff your way through without the relevant knowledge than a night of 60s Garage in front of a crowd that knows their stuff. At a themed gig you could get away with using some of the better known 60s Garage tracks in amongst the other stuff.

A genre gig would be a night of only that genre & requires a hell of a lot more knowledge than a general 60s gig. At a 60s Garage night you'd be crucified if you tried to play most of the stuff that you would play at a general 60s night.

Put in live gig terms, themed night seeing the Hollies or the Troggs (usually at Butlins or a golf club) with one or two original members trotting out their hits & covers of other folks stuff (I've seen them do it) to folks on a nostalgia trip or just after a fun night out. Genre gig the Sonics, or the Monks ( at a proper gig venue) playing the majority of their back catalogue to a crowd that is there purely to see them play the stuff they're known for.

[jeff wood]

I have done all sorts of retro themed nights over the last 27 years it doesn't matter about the genre they are all treated the same in my books. If i get booked for themed night and vinyl was used the technics come out. All others I use the CDJs. I still have my vinyl collection but changed over to dvs years ago because the clients like to still see a dj using turntables for retro nights and pay well for it. They never notice I'm not swapping the vinyl but they do see me using vinyl and they are happy.

Yes it could be done with any form of media I am not arguing that and from a dj point of view makes no difference at all. Its client perception which is what this thread is about in the first place.

The number of clients who comment about how nice it is to see a proper dj (there words not mine) cant be ignored, and it gets me more bookings so I am not going to complain.

I'm not sure if you have ever used a DVS system but its exactly the same as using the original vinyl except you dont have to keep swapping vinyls. Everything else is the same




I'm so tempted to get a pair of 1200's and serato


sorry, back on topic...

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

.

Have you done 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B gigs?

N


I have done all sorts of retro themed nights over the last 27 years

That'll be a no then...:sj:

[Javlingames]

Do you know anything about the genres concerned? There is no use for beat mixing or manipulation.

All you need is a play button & faders.
this post demonstrates the lack of understanding of the op's thread. Therefore whether he has played these events before or not is irrelevant. The op was looking for advice on old styles and new formats. Serato traitor etc is just that and it allows him the real vinyl look

[funkymook]

what would you think if you turned up at a pubs function room where someone had arranged their own night advertising this sort of music and they were using cd's?

Really just wanted some opinions on using cd's/mp3's for this type of gig, especially from any members of the forum who play at or attend specialist nights.

Not really looking for an alternative like serato etc. - quite happy with my current gear.

Any ideas on the decks I saw being used the other night? Done a search on google and it was something like a Citronic Thames 2 - but I don't think that was it - any other ideas?

[DJ James Lake]

this post demonstrates the lack of understanding of the op's thread. Therefore whether he has played these events before or not is irrelevant. The op was looking for advice on old styles and new formats. Serato traitor etc is just that and it allows him the real vinyl look

Thank you that was exactly my point. There was no need to drag into a debate about music types. After all after 27 years of gigging and plenty of Genre specific gigs its like teaching a grandmother to suck eggs.

[Corabar Steve]

Still haven't answered the question directed at you though James. Although I suspect Darren may have come up with the answer already.

Martin's actual question was whether or not people would be bothered if he used CDs / MP3s for the type of gig in question. The answer to that is emphatically no, as long as they hear the right sort of music it doesn't matter what format you use. The only people that will tell you otherwise are elitist snobs of the highest order. It's all about the music, not whether it's played with a stylus, a laser or from a hard drive.

As far as I can tell from his posts, I don't think he was asking about giving him the illusion of "the real vinyl look" & pretending to use records (which is pretty much what is being suggested).


this post demonstrates the lack of understanding of the op's thread. Therefore whether he has played these events before or not is irrelevant. The op was looking for advice on old styles and new formats. Serato traitor etc is just that and it allows him the real vinyl look
I would say that this actually demonstrates more of a lack of understanding TBH.

Try re-reading the thread again. Martin's question was, was it acceptable to play those genres on CD or MP3. Your solution was to suggest something more suited to wannabe Fatboy Slims.

[DJ James Lake]

The original post stated "Now all the people I've seen playing this style of music (mainly at specialist nights) appear to using the original vinyl - I don't have the vinyl, nor the time and money to build a collection, so use cd's and mp3's" hence why I suggested a dvs system if he has got these kind of gigs to do.

He could play what original vinyl he had and use the timecoded discs to play the rest. Its the best solution for the situation that he is in if he and his clients want that image. Yes it is acceptable to use cd or mp3 but there are options which can (they have for me) lead to higher fees and more bookings, it has nothing to do with being wannabe Tiestos as you suggest, I do weddings with a DVS system that doesnt make me a wannabe Tiesto i just prefer using that type of setup as I feel I have more control and clients also like to see it rather than just button pressing.

[StarZSoundS]

My mate gos to these Scooter Rallies and that.He is passionate about his Lambretta AND his Music.(Jam,Ska,Soul ETC).

I have been with him a couple of times and the playout system was never an issue......

I think the Nostaglia lies with Parka,Loafers,Vehicle and the TYPE of music played rather than what its played on.

They'd soon get fed up if your Vinyl or even CD'S started jumping.

Digital Rools OK!!

[Corabar Steve]

have you actually done a gig like the one in question?


What? 60s Garage, mod & R'n'B?


I asked a direct question.

Have you done 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B gigs?


Still haven't answered the question directed at you though James. Although I suspect Darren may have come up with the answer already.Still waiting James


The original post stated "Now all the people I've seen playing this style of music (mainly at specialist nights) appear to using the original vinyl - I don't have the vinyl, nor the time and money to build a collection, so use cd's and mp3's" hence why I suggested a dvs system if he has got these kind of gigs to do.

He could play what original vinyl he had and use the timecoded discs to play the rest. Its the best solution for the situation that he is in if he and his clients want that image. Yes it is acceptable to use cd or mp3 but there are options which can (they have for me) lead to higher fees and more bookings, it has nothing to do with being wannabe Tiestos as you suggest, I do weddings with a DVS system that doesnt make me a wannabe Tiesto i just prefer using that type of setup as I feel I have more control and clients also like to see it rather than just button pressing.The only advantage of a DVS system would be to create the pretence (because that is all it is) of using vinyl. How can it possibly be "the best solution for the situation he is in" when it would entail extra expenditure & extra effort & TBH isn't needed other than to perpetuate the fraud of appearing to play from vinyl.?

So you can do weddings using this type of system? What can you do that you can't do with say a HD2500? I use a HD2500 myself, but wouldn't suggest to somebody who had his entire collection on vinyl or CD that this was the system that he needed, when it's blatantly obvious that there is more work involved (in this example they would have to rip from their vinyl or CD to actually use the system concerned)


My mate gos to these Scooter Rallies and that.He is passionate about his Lambretta AND his Music.(Jam,Ska,Soul ETC).

I have been with him a couple of times and the playout system was never an issue......

I think the Nostaglia lies with Parka,Loafers,Vehicle and the TYPE of music played rather than what its played on.Amen to that! Thank you.

[Javlingames]

Still waiting James

The only advantage of a DVS system would be to create the pretence (because that is all it is) of using vinyl. How can it possibly be "the best solution for the situation he is in" when it would entail extra expenditure & extra effort & TBH isn't needed other than to perpetuate the fraud of appearing to play from vinyl.?

So you can do weddings using this type of system? What can you do that you can't do with say a HD2500? I use a HD2500 myself, but wouldn't suggest to somebody who had his entire collection on vinyl or CD that this was the system that he needed, when it's blatantly obvious that there is more work involved (in this example they would have to rip from their vinyl or CD to actually use the system concerned)

Amen to that! Thank you.

oh dear steve, you really have lost the plot, you are so far out with your dvs views.

[Corabar Steve]

oh dear steve, you really have lost the plot, you are so far out with your dvs views.
& you conveniently missed out the one key point (below in red).

I maintain there is no need to use DVS in this situation & to do so would complicate matters.



The only advantage of a DVS system would be to create the pretence (because that is all it is) of using vinyl. How can it possibly be "the best solution for the situation he is in" when it would entail extra expenditure & extra effort & TBH isn't needed other than to perpetuate the fraud of appearing to play from vinyl.?

So you can do weddings using this type of system? What can you do that you can't do with say a HD2500? I use a HD2500 myself, but wouldn't suggest to somebody who had his entire collection on vinyl or CD that this was the system that he needed, when it's blatantly obvious that there is more work involved (in this example they would have to rip from their vinyl or CD to actually use the system concerned)

Amen to that! Thank you.As you seem to be doing your usual "posting when you can have an argument" trick maybe you can answer the bit in blue

[DJ James Lake]

Still waiting James


Whats the point Steve you obviously have all the answers. No one can enter into a discussion anymore without being flamed on here, its getting ridiculous.


Oh and one thing you cant do on an HD2500 is play the original vinyl that you do own, unless I missed that bit in the manual.

[Excalibur]

Well I'm truly :Censored:ed off now! :mad: :mad: I spend thousands on going digital, and now you're saying I should have kept on using vinyl? :confused:

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Whats the point Steve you obviously have all the answers. No one can enter into a discussion anymore without being flamed on here, its getting ridiculous.




And I am getting fed up with you posting that you are getting flamed when you are just having a discussion or debate. If you can't answer simple questions, then don't enter into the debate.

Who is flaming you James? Perhaps you'd like to point out where and I will certainly sort it out for you.

[Excalibur]

Just in case anybody didn't spot it, my post was, not surprisingly, in jest. ;) ;)

[Corabar Steve]

Nobody's flaming anyone James.

Playing vinyl, well yes, I would've thought that was obvious to anybody.

I'll take your reluctance to answer the question as an indication that Darren was right.
Well I'm truly :Censored:ed off now! :mad: :mad: I spend thousands on going digital, and now you're saying I should have kept on using vinyl? :confused:
Well we all know that if you're not using vinyl (or time coded vinyl to manipulate MP3s), you're not a proper DJ :sj:

[Excalibur]

Well we all know that if you're not using vinyl (or time coded vinyl to manipulate MP3s), you're not a proper DJ :sj:

Oo Sir, your comment has cut me to the quick. :( :( :( While I'm out in the shed getting Simon's lighting stands, I'd better blow the dust off the Wheels of Steel that are in there as well. ;)

[Corabar Steve]

Yeah, maybe I should get the Hawaii out of the loft.

[STEVE HANLEY]

Well done Funkymook or whatever your name is. You havn't been a member on here 5 minutes and already you've opened a can of worms.

As long as you play an awesome set that gets you a :Censored: load of plaudits. It shouldn't matter what system it's played on. Good luck to you mate;)

[Excalibur]

Yeah, maybe I should get the Hawaii out of the loft.

Well at least you'd get your credibility back. :p

[Corabar Steve]

Ah! So it's been in the loft! I was wondering where it was

[StarZSoundS]

Nobody's flaming anyone James.

Playing vinyl, well yes, I would've thought that was obvious to anybody.

I'll take your reluctance to answer the question as an indication that Darren was right.
Well we all know that if you're not using vinyl (or time coded vinyl to manipulate MP3s), you're not a proper DJ :sj:


Just got in from work:eek: :eek: :eek:

This is why this Forum is a fascinating place to be.

Steve and James are falling out over a technicallity that doesn't matter.

When I first joined I fell out with someone who is a nice guy over Black Lace....Nothings changed .....I still play them and suspect that the other poster still hates them!!:eek: :eek: :eek:It didn't matter!!

I wonder if Plumbers (for instance) have Forums??If they did would they fall out about the best way to fit a a Toilet.Probably not.Jim would accept that Daves going to do it his way and Vice Versa!!;) :cool: ;) :cool:

Its getting beyond healthy debate now...and I think perhaps James has it wrong by claiming the Site is quieter because of peoples attitudes.It sure looks busy enough to me......there are other Forums as options...if you want to wait 5 hours for a further comment on one of your posts.;) ;)

You need an ego to do this job(i'll admit i've got one...anybody else care to??) and the falling out is about egos.The subject matter is not a tangible,factual consideration.....its an opinion!! :) :)

[soundtracker]

I wonder if Plumbers (for instance) have Forums??If they did would they fall out about the best way to fit a a Toilet.Probably not.Jim would accept that Daves going to do it his way and Vice Versa!!;) :cool: ;) :cool:

Its getting beyond healthy debate now...and I think perhaps James has it wrong by claiming the Site is quieter because of peoples attitudes.It sure looks busy enough to me......there are other Forums as options...if you want to wait 5 hours for a further comment on one of your posts.;) ;)

You need an ego to do this job(i'll admit i've got one...anybody else care to??) and the falling out is about egos.The subject matter is not a tangible,factual consideration.....its an opinion!! :) :)
No you're wrong...Agadoo is crap - FACT!:D

As a matter of interest .. is it you sending me these e-mails?


GET A PLUMBING CAREER -
GET ON THE RIGHT TRACK

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If the time is right to consider an alternative, lucrative and interesting career, you could realise your earning potential and become one of the thousands of plumbers that are so much in demand.

The CITB estimates that 29,000 newly qualified plumbers will be required in the next year alone and that between 2006
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Don't miss the chance to change for a better brighter future, click here to find out more.

[StarZSoundS]

No you're wrong...Agadoo is crap - FACT!:D

As a matter of interest .. is it you sending me these e-mails?


GET A PLUMBING CAREER -
GET ON THE RIGHT TRACK

There's never been a better time to train as a plumber.

If the time is right to consider an alternative, lucrative and interesting career, you could realise your earning potential and become one of the thousands of plumbers that are so much in demand.

The CITB estimates that 29,000 newly qualified plumbers will be required in the next year alone and that between 2006
and 2010, an extra 5,300 plumbers will be required by
the UK construction industry every year.

- No qualifications or experience required
- Age is no barrier to entry
- Study at your own pace
- Intensive practical training
- Flexible, friendly, successful and affordable

Don't miss the chance to change for a better brighter future, click here to find out more.


Not me Buddy.


I agree Agadoo its not one of their better ones.However, I have had a lot of fun with Music Man,Superman and Penny Arcade!!;) :D ;) :D ;) :D

[Javlingames]

& you conveniently missed out the one key point (below in red).

I maintain there is no need to use DVS in this situation & to do so would complicate matters.
As you seem to be doing your usual posting when you can have an argument trick maybe you can answer the bit in blue

From the OP's first post, the way i read it, suggests that he would feel incomfortable playing anything BUT vinyl as alot of the events he goes to the dj's use vinyl, he then went on to say that he didnt have the time or money to build a vinyl collection. So i suggested serato. Apologies if i read this wrong, also please not the thread is titled 'old music - new formats' i was only trying to help a forum member. I didnt convienently miss out any points and whats an argument trick?, il leave the arguing to you, as thats exactly what you have done here. I do think you have steamed into this thread with a little bit of arragonce because you have some experience in these events. Your 'wannnabe fatboy slim' comments are uneccasary tbh. As far as HD2500 ive never used one so cant comment. Have you ever used a DVS system? If the answer no, how can you possibly suggest whether it is the right tool for the job or not. Ultimatly its just another playout system that can be used as a basic playing facility for weddings and similar functions, stop start etc or pushed to its limits by a turntablist. It has nothing to do with 'pretending'. I personally use the system because i like the hands on feel. Also I always used vinyl before so it was a natural progression for me.

[funkymook]

Just been reading a similar debate on a dedicated Mod forum (not posted by me - but someone asking a very similiar question) - now there's a group of people who feel strongly about such things! On the whole though some very interesting views on the subject, and backed by articulate argument.

Main argument against is that without the vinyl DJ's searcing for rare 45's a lot of this music would never see the light of day (they were talking about very obscure American R&B here) - without the trade in vinyl there would be no commercial sense in American record traders keeping all the crates of 45's and they would probably end up being dumped and no one would ever hear them. These crate digger DJ's are seen as keeping this music alive and are given due respect for building their collections on vinyl and finding new tunes to play. Then record companies haved picked up on this and various CD compilations of rare tracks are available - usually compiled by these crate diggers.

Also, due to the rarity and value (£500 for a 45!) the tunes don't get played at every gig - so it's a special occasion when they do.

But it was also argued that this elitism is responsible for an awful lot of rubbish being played as rarity took precedence over the music (the Northern Soul scene in particular was mentioned). So the good DJ's were seen as having taste as well as the vinyl.

A pet hate was people who fancied being a Mod DJ and downloaded loads of tunes over a weekend - it's the 'paying your dues' argument really, one member said he collected for over 15 years before he even considered playing to an audience. Another member was slated for DJ'ing when he only had 50 tunes on vinyl - though to be fair he was only doing an hours slot as support to the main DJ.

Counter arguments were given that searching out the good stuff on CD and mp3 also takes time and effort - and CD compilations help more people hear the music who might then come to the specialist clubs to seek out more of the same.

For home listening no one had a problem with CD's - and some of the DJ's seem to make their own compilations and sell them at events (but I bet there 'best' tunes aren't on them).

But overall most of the people wouldn't be too bothered if they went to a local pub or party and cd's were being used (but not laptops strangely enough - though examples cited of laptop dj's were of the lazy turn it on and prop up the bar all night type - so not typical of our members here). But at a 'proper' Mod Club original vinyl is the only way - even vinyl reissues were frowned upon by some.

My conclusions are - these are niche DJ's doing a fantastic job of playing rare and forgotten music, without their time and effort people wouldn't hear nearly as much good stuff - other formats are OK outside of the specialist clubs - but be prepared for a few people not liking the music on anything other than the original vinyl.

Wonder what's going to happen in 30 years time when all the best vinyl tunes are worn out and no longer playable - original CD DJ's will have their time!

[Corabar Steve]

whats an argument trick
I've no idea, but if read with the correct pause in place, I was referring to your tendency to turn up & post with a knack of causing a row. A habit which is dangerously close to trolling. (this has been noted by other members & site staff also)


Just been reading a similar debate on a dedicated Mod forum (not posted by me - but someone asking a very similiar question) - now there's a group of people who feel strongly about such things! On the whole though some very interesting views on the subject, and backed by articulate argument.

Main argument against is that without the vinyl DJ's searcing for rare 45's a lot of this music would never see the light of day (they were talking about very obscure American R&B here) - without the trade in vinyl there would be no commercial sense in American record traders keeping all the crates of 45's and they would probably end up being dumped and no one would ever hear them. These crate digger DJ's are seen as keeping this music alive and are given due respect for building their collections on vinyl and finding new tunes to play. Then record companies haved picked up on this and various CD compilations of rare tracks are available - usually compiled by these crate diggers.

Also, due to the rarity and value (£500 for a 45!) the tunes don't get played at every gig - so it's a special occasion when they do.

But it was also argued that this elitism is responsible for an awful lot of rubbish being played as rarity took precedence over the music (the Northern Soul scene in particular was mentioned). So the good DJ's were seen as having taste as well as the vinyl.

A pet hate was people who fancied being a Mod DJ and downloaded loads of tunes over a weekend - it's the 'paying your dues' argument really, one member said he collected for over 15 years before he even considered playing to an audience. Another member was slated for DJ'ing when he only had 50 tunes on vinyl - though to be fair he was only doing an hours slot as support to the main DJ.

Counter arguments were given that searching out the good stuff on CD and mp3 also takes time and effort - and CD compilations help more people hear the music who might then come to the specialist clubs to seek out more of the same.

For home listening no one had a problem with CD's - and some of the DJ's seem to make their own compilations and sell them at events (but I bet there 'best' tunes aren't on them).

But overall most of the people wouldn't be too bothered if they went to a local pub or party and cd's were being used (but not laptops strangely enough - though examples cited of laptop dj's were of the lazy turn it on and prop up the bar all night type - so not typical of our members here). But at a 'proper' Mod Club original vinyl is the only way - even vinyl reissues were frowned upon by some.

My conclusions are - these are niche DJ's doing a fantastic job of playing rare and forgotten music, without their time and effort people wouldn't hear nearly as much good stuff - other formats are OK outside of the specialist clubs - but be prepared for a few people not liking the music on anything other than the original vinyl.

Wonder what's going to happen in 30 years time when all the best vinyl tunes are worn out and no longer playable - original CD DJ's will have their time!Looking at that, I'd say a DVS DJ would get a hell of a lot more stick than somebody obviously using CDs or MP3s.

I don't think you have anything to worry about for the gigs that you plan to do though Martin.

[Javlingames]

I've no idea, but if read with the correct pause in place, I was referring to your tendency to turn up & post with a knack of causing a row. A habit which is dangerously close to trolling. (this has been noted by other members & site staff also)



Looking at that, I'd say a DVS DJ would get a hell of a lot more stick than somebody obviously using CDs or MP3s.





I see you ignore my question to you. Just as i thought. As for the rest of your post. Utter rubbish

[Excalibur]

As a matter of interest .. is it you sending me these e-mails?


GET A PLUMBING CAREER -
GET ON THE RIGHT TRACK

There's never been a better time to train as a plumber.

.

Dunno mate, but it's definitely a profitable career. ;)


I agree Agadoo its not one of their better ones.However, I have had a lot of fun with Music Man,Superman and Penny Arcade!!;) :D ;) :D ;) :D

Oh no, he's mentioned that one now! :bang: :bang: Welcome to our old friend, Regional Differences. Along with Gimme Some, they'll have no idea about that South of Watford. ;)

[funkymook]

I hope you're playing your Black Lace collections on the orginal vinyl!

[Excalibur]

I hope you're playing your Black Lace collections on the orginal vinyl!

Somewhere, once upon a time, I had a 12" Black Lace single, with an x-rated version of Superman on the b-side! :eek: :eek: Do you think it would be valuable, if I could find it? :confused: :confused:

[StarZSoundS]

Dunno mate, but it's definitely a profitable career. ;)



Oh no, he's mentioned that one now! :bang: :bang: Welcome to our old friend, Regional Differences. Along with Gimme Some, they'll have no idea about that South of Watford. ;)

YEP....you're right Peter.....They've never had the room clapping along and singing along to this classic!!




I hope you're playing your Black Lace collections on the orginal vinyl!


Funky....you have a good attitude.Believe me when I first joined I had the temerity to suggest that Black Lace had a part to play in some evenings??You should have seen the reaction of some??:eek: :eek: :eek:

It was like the David Beckham effigy hanging from a tree!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

[DazzyD]

Don't know much about the music you refer to,not my cup of tea,but why would you be expected to play vinyl at some of these functions????:confused:


Because it's bloody hard to get it on CD or download.

These youngsters need a lot of teaching! Will someone write a guide as to why you might use vinyl at niche nights?



Just got in from work:eek: :eek: :eek:

This is why this Forum is a fascinating place to be.

Steve and James are falling out over a technicallity that doesn't matter.

When I first joined I fell out with someone who is a nice guy over Black Lace....Nothings changed .....I still play them and suspect that the other poster still hates them!!:eek: :eek: :eek:It didn't matter!!

I wonder if Plumbers (for instance) have Forums??If they did would they fall out about the best way to fit a a Toilet.Probably not.Jim would accept that Daves going to do it his way and Vice Versa!!;) :cool: ;) :cool:

Its getting beyond healthy debate now...and I think perhaps James has it wrong by claiming the Site is quieter because of peoples attitudes.It sure looks busy enough to me......there are other Forums as options...if you want to wait 5 hours for a further comment on one of your posts.;) ;)

You need an ego to do this job(i'll admit i've got one...anybody else care to??) and the falling out is about egos.The subject matter is not a tangible,factual consideration.....its an opinion!! :) :)

Egos? DJs? I thought we were all shy retiring types??? :D


Somewhere, once upon a time, I had a 12" Black Lace single, with an x-rated version of Superman on the b-side! :eek: :eek: Do you think it would be valuable, if I could find it? :confused: :confused:

Well if it is worth a few bob let me know - I'm sure I've got that one too. The sadest part is that I bought it straight after their show. It was in Blackpool and we were out when the star turn was announced - Black Lace! :eek: Also saw them at Flamingoland,too, whilst on holiday. I've been unlucky in holidays!

[Corabar Steve]

I see you ignore my question to you. Just as i thought. As for the rest of your post. Utter rubbish
There was a question in there?

I'm sorry I must of missed it in with all the gibberish & lack of punctuation.

& you're getting dangerously close to trolling again as the second half of that post appears to follow at least some of the definition.
An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war. We all know what happens to trolls on here.

Having re-read your post, I assume it was have I used a DVS system? Yes, I've had a play with one & honestly my opinion is that it's a pointless gimmick & nothing more.

Personally I think if you want to play vinyl, then get some turntables & do so, if you're going to play MP3s, then get a laptop or HD controller (they can connect to the same mixers). The only advantage I can really see is if your mixer doesn't have enough inputs to run vinyl & MP3 / CD or if you don't have the manual dexterity to manage the size of jog wheel that is found on twin CD players / Media controllers.

How is the rest of my post utter rubbish? You do tend to post for the sake of an argument (as I said, this has been noted by other members & site staff)

Also I would imagine a DVS DJ would get a lot more stick if the crowd were vinyl purists, firstly for using MP3s in the first place & secondly (& I know you'll say it's not pretending, but in the eyes of a punter it would look like that) pretending to use vinyl, to cover up the fact that they are using MP3s.

I've not had any problems using MP3s at this type of function & I've even been asked to do a Scooter Club event (didn't do it in the end they wouldn't pay out going rate) because I used MP3s & my collection of relevant music was bigger as a consequence so they wouldn't have to listen to the same old same old....

[StarZSoundS]

same old same old....

SONG!!!


Four Tops.....would be popular at this type of function;) ;) ;)

[Corabar Steve]

Not as popular as you'd think, but you could get away with some.

[Javlingames]

There was a question in there?

I'm sorry I must of missed it in with all the gibberish & lack of punctuation.

& you're getting dangerously close to trolling again as the second half of that post appears to follow at least some of the definition.We all know what happens to trolls on here.

Having re-read your post, I assume it was have I used a DVS system? Yes, I've had a play with one & honestly my opinion is that it's a pointless gimmick & nothing more.

Personally I think if you want to play vinyl, then get some turntables & do so, if you're going to play MP3s, then get a laptop or HD controller (they can connect to the same mixers). The only advantage I can really see is if your mixer doesn't have enough inputs to run vinyl & MP3 / CD or if you don't have the manual dexterity to manage the size of jog wheel that is found on twin CD players / Media controllers.

How is the rest of my post utter rubbish? You do tend to post for the sake of an argument (as I said, this has been noted by other members & site staff)

Also I would imagine a DVS DJ would get a lot more stick if the crowd were vinyl purists, firstly for using MP3s in the first place & secondly (& I know you'll say it's not pretending, but in the eyes of a punter it would look like that) pretending to use vinyl, to cover up the fact that they are using MP3s.

I've not had any problems using MP3s at this type of function & I've even been asked to do a Scooter Club event (didn't do it in the end they wouldn't pay out going rate) because I used MP3s & my collection of relevant music was bigger as a consequence so they wouldn't have to listen to the same old same old....

I find your views on dvs systems very ignorant and narrow minded.

How can i play vinyl on my turntables when its impossible to get chart records on vinyl??

You are incorrect stating that a crowd of vinyl purists would get stick. You will find that the DMC competition now allows DVS. In the eys of a punter its pretending? absolute Crap!! Never had that comment in 5 years. I worked in London last night on a corporate gig (the sheraton on park lane that we discussed a few weeks back)and i was approached by a guy who said its great to see a DJ using serato with the decks. Even the girl from the production company who booked me said 'i love the fact that you have turntables, it looks so much more visual than just a laptop. That sounds like im makin that up but im not!! Honest lol.

For the record i try to post advise and help when and where i can, like this one. I see it as healthy debate. Man up steve

[Corabar Steve]

May I suggest that you look up the definition of ignorant.

I am correct in the statement I made, within the context of this thread. DMC competition isn't about 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B is it. This thread is. You would get less stick for obviously playing from CDs & MP3s than 2 pretend records & MP3s.

How can you play chart records? Frankly I don't care, it's not relevant to this thread, but the fact is if you are playing current chart music using serato, you're not playing vinyl anyway, you're just using vinyl to help you play MP3s. An unnecessary addition.

As for the chap referring to you using serato, well he must've been another DJ, coz Joe Public sure as hell wouldn't know what it was. But again this is irrelevant to this thread

[funkymook]

OK - from what I see on the Mod forums it's the actual searching, trading, owning and playing of the original 45's that is important (some even frown upon playing from LP's or reissued 45's)

Admittedly I'm looking at a relatively small community of specialist music lovers who are elitist - and proud of it!

But, for all their vinyl elitism, they come across as very friendly and welcoming, and an amazing knowledge of early R&B (don't seem to be into 60's Garage or Psych so much) which they are more than happy to share with playlists, latest purchases etc....not sure if I'm allowed to publish their forum site on here (can someone let me know please - can always PM it if more acceptable), it's definitely worth a look if you're into the music, great list of clubs, lots of info on scooters....and clothes of course.

I've a friend who is a Funk DJ and he does use DVS - which seems to be totally acceptable within that genre, probably because of the close links between funk, breakbeats and the turnablists who use DVS, and as mentioned it's been sanctioned by DMC. So a good suggestion, and in most circumstances it would be ok - but unfortunately not for this particular crowd of music lovers.

[Corabar Steve]

Looks like the mods are more snobbish than the garage heads then :) (it figures:sj:)

[Javlingames]

May I suggest that you look up the definition of ignorant.

I am correct in the statement I made, within the context of this thread. DMC competition isn't about 60s Garage, Mod & R'n'B is it. This thread is. You would get less stick for obviously playing from CDs & MP3s than 2 pretend records & MP3s.

How can you play chart records? Frankly I don't care, it's not relevant to this thread, but the fact is if you are playing current chart music using serato, you're not playing vinyl anyway, you're just using vinyl to help you play MP3s. An unnecessary addition.

As for the chap referring to you using serato, well he must've been another DJ, coz Joe Public sure as hell wouldn't know what it was. But again this is irrelevant to this thread

ig·no·rant (gnr-nt)
adj.
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

Your views on why dj's use a DVS system seem uninformed yet you are highly opinionated on the subject. It seems because you dont like dvs systems you are quick to rubbish other dj's who use it calling them 'wannabe fatboy slims' and 'pretending' to play records.

You stated that vinyl purists would hate on dvs users, crowds at the dmc are hip hop enthusiasts and they are all about the vinyl. They do not have any issues about dmc dj's 'pretending' to play records.

You said if i want to play real vinyl why dont i get the decks out and play it. I ask you how am i going to play chart records on real vinyl? Where can i buy this vinyl?

Yes he was a DJ as it goes, im not sure on what level as i didnt know him, in this instance he was joe public as he was a delegate. So i dont think joepublic are as dumb as you are suggesting. You never know who is in the audience on any given night.

Ive never once been accused of 'pretending to play' records so why would it be any different at a mod/ garage event?

I know nothing about the mod and garage 60s scene but are you suggesting that everyone in that room would kick up a stink if the dj was playing records that he spent years collecting and lots of money on but was playing them through serato?

[funkymook]

Ive never once been accused of 'pretending to play' records so why would it be any different at a mod/ garage event?

I know nothing about the mod and garage 60s scene but are you suggesting that everyone in that room would kick up a stink if the dj was playing records that he spent years collecting and lots of money on but was playing them through serato?

Interestingly this sort of thing was bought up on the Mod forum, they were discussing ways of preserving their rare 45's - someone suggested that bringing the copies along to prove ownership but playing them on cd/mp3 etc might be acceptable - didn't get a very good reaction I'm afraid. Looking at all the flyers for the clubs (they download loads of them in their club section) they all state something along the lines of 'played on original 45's' - this is their USP - so for these people there's no substitute.

I have been emailing an Indie/Mod/Lounge DJ who has quite a large presence on the scene (has played Glastonbury and quite a few clubs etc) who only uses cd and mp3 - I asked him what the general reaction was - on the whole it was ok - but some clubs have booked him on his reputation and then cancelled when they realised he didn't use vinyl (he makes no secret of it and it's clearly in his profile and publicity material). I also liked his attitude of making no apologies for it - he does what he does, gets bookings and just gets on with it - which has given me the confidence to do the same.

[Javlingames]

Interestingly this sort of thing was bought up on the Mod forum, they were discussing ways of preserving their rare 45's - someone suggested that bringing the copies along to prove ownership but playing them on cd/mp3 etc might be acceptable - didn't get a very good reaction I'm afraid. Looking at all the flyers for the clubs (they download loads of them in their club section) they all state something along the lines of 'played on original 45's' - this is their USP - so for these people there's no substitute.

I have been emailing an Indie/Mod/Lounge DJ who has quite a large presence on the scene (has played Glastonbury and quite a few clubs etc) who only uses cd and mp3 - I asked him what the general reaction was - on the whole it was ok - but some clubs have booked him on his reputation and then cancelled when they realised he didn't use vinyl (he makes no secret of it and it's clearly in his profile and publicity material). I also liked his attitude of making no apologies for it - he does what he does, gets bookings and just gets on with it - which has given me the confidence to do the same.

Interesting points. Personally i would love to go to a club and hear a set with vinyl only so i can see why there is no substitute for these enthusiasts. Are the people on the forum mod dj's or club goers?

Sooner or later though one DJ has to break the mould surely? It would make much more sense to rip those valuable records to mp3, leave them at home safe and play it on mp3 via a dvs system. Would you consider dipping your toe in the water and be the first to give it a go with dvs on that particular scene?

[funkymook]

Sooner or later though one DJ has to break the mould surely? It would make much more sense to rip those valuable records to mp3, leave them at home safe and play it on mp3 via a dvs system. Would you consider dipping your toe in the water and be the first to give it a go with dvs on that particular scene?

Would love to, but I'd need the vinyl to do it - and if I had that I'd already be one of the specialist DJ's, happily smug in my vinyl exclusiveness!

But a good point - if one or two of the name DJ's on this circuit decided to do this then I'm sure it would become accepted (I think you'd have to be known to have a fantastic collection in the first place to be credible), and seeing the rarity and limited lifespan of some 45's this might happen one day..

[Corabar Steve]

How did it go tonight Martin?

[funkymook]

Hi Steve,

Just got back in - not many at the gig, probably 25 or so (they said it was the smallest audience they've ever played to) - good set though, no playlist, so played what they fancied and took requests for any SF songs from the audience (even managed Donkey Rides, A Penny A Glass - which I've never seen them play before).

I did an hour or so before and about 1/2 hour afterwards.... no prob using cd's - in fact one of the band said he can't believe the DJ's he knows taking out £200 45's and playing them.

They're well up for me playing a proper set after their next local gig - so I'm happy!

[Corabar Steve]

Glad it went well, I'll try & make the next one.

[STEVE HANLEY]

Hi Steve,

Just got back in - not many at the gig, probably 25 or so (they said it was the smallest audience they've ever played to) - good set though, no playlist, so played what they fancied and took requests for any SF songs from the audience (even managed Donkey Rides, A Penny A Glass - which I've never seen them play before).

I did an hour or so before and about 1/2 hour afterwards.... no prob using cd's - in fact one of the band said he can't believe the DJ's he knows taking out £200 45's and playing them.

They're well up for me playing a proper set after their next local gig - so I'm happy!

Pleased for you mate. Puts that argument to bed once for all?? I have a huge vinyl House/Techno collection, but havn't got the motovation to burn it on to disc etc for the simple fact is I'll probably never play it again..... Times and trends move on;)