Bad room for acoustics

[gaza]

Hi guys

I did a gig at a the venue in the pictures below on Saturday night.
Now, this is a lovely venue which is part of Moor Park Mansion ( the larger building in the picture), but the sound quality when i was using the mic was terible, i tried lots of tweeking with the mic settings but it still sounded awfull.
When i was packing away i mentioned this to the Venue manager and he said that the problem is because of the strange shape of the ceiling and that they are always getting coments about the sound in that room. Take a look at the picture and you will see what i mean. :bang:


7748

7749

[ppentertainments]

We have a couple of lovely castles near here which suffer from acoustics. No matter how loud you play, the sound will not travel.

Actually quite a good little selling point as I advice clients about this due to initial enquiries and explain the best way is to concentrate sound onto the dance floor etc etc, and makes you sound very knowledgable about the place.

[Corabar Steve]

We've never had any problems when any of our guys have palyed there.

[CRAZY K]

Hi guys

I did a gig at a the venue in the pictures below on Saturday night.
Now, this is a lovely venue which is part of Moor Park Mansion ( the larger building in the picture), but the sound quality when i was using the mic was terible, i tried lots of tweeking with the mic settings but it still sounded awfull.
When i was packing away i mentioned this to the Venue manager and he said that the problem is because of the strange shape of the ceiling and that they are always getting coments about the sound in that room. Take a look at the picture and you will see what i mean. :bang:


7748

7749

You just have to get on with it--count your lucky stars your not a Barn Dance Caller and people are relying on your PA to hear instructions for every dance clearly:eek: :eek: :eek:

Obviously the building was built BD.

BD= Before Discos:D

[Kernow]

We've never had any problems when any of our guys have palyed there.

Whoops !! ;)

[Corabar Steve]

Ooh, a typo:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[gaza]

We've never had any problems when any of our guys have palyed there.



Hi Steve
Were your gigs in the Orangery.

[leelive]

Is it a really tall ceiling? If yes, I have a solution. I play at a venue with a 120ft high ceiling - no joke! It is huge. The bass travels fine... but the tweets get lost before you get halfway through the room. It sounds like you are underwater at the back of the room. I got around it by doubling up my mackie 450s and pressing the low cut on one pair. The extra treble from those speakers got to the back of the room without completely being lost by the height of the room. I don't know if that is the technical answer... but it worked for me.
Lee

[Corabar Steve]

Hi Steve
Were your gigs in the Orangery.
We've done most of the rooms there, including the big one with the high ceiling & big pictures at the front of the building (just inside the door where the columns are in the top pic).

Certainly done at least one in the room pictured.

[funkymook]

Is it a really tall ceiling? If yes, I have a solution. I play at a venue with a 120ft high ceiling - no joke! It is huge. The bass travels fine... but the tweets get lost before you get halfway through the room. It sounds like you are underwater at the back of the room. I got around it by doubling up my mackie 450s and pressing the low cut on one pair. The extra treble from those speakers got to the back of the room without completely being lost by the height of the room. I don't know if that is the technical answer... but it worked for me.
Lee

Have you tried the speakers pole attachments that angle the speakers downwards? I thought they helped focus the highs towards the audience.

[Starlight]

Have you tried using an external compressor on your mic because a good compressor will give you manual threshhold and ratio control meaning (providing you've got your threshold and ratio set correctly) your mic will have a 'tighter' sound. I know this because I'm a producer and voiceover artist and I know that if my stuff wasn't compressed, there won't be a 'kick' about my sound. I think if you utilise an external compressor plugged into your mic, it should sound 'tighter' and better in a room with bad accoustics. I was out with my partner at the weekend in Oxfordshire and the DJ sounded aweful on his mic because there simply wasn't any 'kick' to his mic sound. You should find an external complessor will add 'kick' to your mic. If I get a chance, I'll upload some audio you can compair compressed audio to none compressed audio.

My 2 pence worth, hope this help :)


Neil.

[gaza]

Have you tried using an external compressor on your mic because a good compressor will give you manual threshhold and ratio control meaning (providing you've got your threshold and ratio set correctly) your mic will have a 'tighter' sound. I know this because I'm a producer and voiceover artist and I know that if my stuff wasn't compressed, there won't be a 'kick' about my sound. I think if you utilise an external compressor plugged into your mic, it should sound 'tighter' and better in a room with bad accoustics. I was out with my partner at the weekend in Oxfordshire and the DJ sounded aweful on his mic because there simply wasn't any 'kick' to his mic sound. You should find an external complessor will add 'kick' to your mic. If I get a chance, I'll upload some audio you can compair compressed audio to none compressed audio.

My 2 pence worth, hope this help :)


Neil.



Thank you :)

[DazzyD]

Have you tried the speakers pole attachments that angle the speakers downwards? I thought they helped focus the highs towards the audience.

Seems to be good advice.

Starlight seems to know his stuff also.

I've seen these ceilings before and, to be honest, I just don't get them. They are great for karaoke as you get a sort of staggered reverb effect as the soundwaves bounce back at you but for straight audio then no.

However, I've been in the audience before and the sound they hear is not what you hear up on stage. So you might be trying to compensate for poor audio when you're not hearing what the crowd hears. The only way to hear that is to get out in front of the stage (or dance area) and listen for yourself. You might be surprised.

[Happy Jack]

Have you tried using an external compressor... your mic will have a 'tighter' sound.

I fail to see how sticking a compressor on one of your mic channels will circumvent the issue of a room with odd acoustics. Unless you mean to go on and say that it is paired off with an EQ with very high Q / narrow band filters to compensate for the troublesome room nodes. With a cheap graphic 1st in the chain you'd have a chance to both reduce dynamic range, raise RMS and flatten the response of the room as best you can. Is that what you mean?

I cannot figure out why the OP only had trouble with speech over the mic unless you had failed to ring the system out and tuned the PA to suit? Without knowing much about the particular problem you had, I'd suggest that you go ahead and buy something like this and stick it before your amps.

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHFBQ2496&browsemode=category

While not 'strictly' for FOH, the little unit does double up well as a decent and inexpensive little parametric EQ to tame room nodes and resonant frequencies. Of course, with this, you have to have a control and a means to take real-time measurement of the rooms response.

I'd look to invest in a Phonic PAA3 Meter and / or a tone generator.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/phonic_paa3_personal_audioassistant.htm

At it's most basic. Once you have set your system up, run the system up with pink noise at relatively high levels - the PAA3 can generate this - and measure the response of the room where you are looking to concentrate the sound. Any major nodes will spike on the meter, and you can then attenuate on the Feedback Destroyer at those troublesome frequencies.

Once you are comfortable with this setup, I'd certainly be inclined to move the Feedback Destroyer to an auxillary on you desk for mic duty, and purchase a dedicated graphic EQ for FOH.

DazzyD also makes a very valid point. Go and have a listen at FOH. What you hear and what the punters hear may be worlds apart.

[gaza]

Seems to be good advice.

Starlight seems to know his stuff also.

I've seen these ceilings before and, to be honest, I just don't get them. They are great for karaoke as you get a sort of staggered reverb effect as the soundwaves bounce back at you but for straight audio then no.

However, I've been in the audience before and the sound they hear is not what you hear up on stage. So you might be trying to compensate for poor audio when you're not hearing what the crowd hears. The only way to hear that is to get out in front of the stage (or dance area) and listen for yourself. You might be surprised.


I fail to see how sticking a compressor on one of your mic channels will circumvent the issue of a room with odd acoustics. Unless you mean to go on and say that it is paired off with an EQ with very high Q / narrow band filters to compensate for the troublesome room nodes. With a cheap graphic 1st in the chain you'd have a chance to both reduce dynamic range, raise RMS and flatten the response of the room as best you can. Is that what you mean?

I cannot figure out why the OP only had trouble with speech over the mic unless you had failed to ring the system out and tuned the PA to suit? Without knowing much about the particular problem you had, I'd suggest that you go ahead and buy something like this and stick it before your amps.

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=BEHFBQ2496&browsemode=category

While not 'strictly' for FOH, the little unit does double up well as a decent and inexpensive little parametric EQ to tame room nodes and resonant frequencies. Of course, with this, you have to have a control and a means to take real-time measurement of the rooms response.

I'd look to invest in a Phonic PAA3 Meter and / or a tone generator.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/phonic_paa3_personal_audioassistant.htm

At it's most basic. Once you have set your system up, run the system up with pink noise at relatively high levels - the PAA3 can generate this - and measure the response of the room where you are looking to concentrate the sound. Any major nodes will spike on the meter, and you can then attenuate on the Feedback Destroyer at those troublesome frequencies.

Once you are comfortable with this setup, I'd certainly be inclined to move the Feedback Destroyer to an auxillary on you desk for mic duty, and purchase a dedicated graphic EQ for FOH.

DazzyD also makes a very valid point. Go and have a listen at FOH. What you hear and what the punters hear may be worlds apart.




Thanks for your input guys. I did walk around the room to have a listen to myself on the mic ( as i always do ) when i was doing a sound check and it sounded fine, but later when i was behind the decks when all the guests were in i thought it sounded a bit strange, perhaps i am going a little mad:confused: .

[paulg]

You'd almost certainly get sound waves bouncing back at ever increasing intervals from that ceiling which could create a warble or echo effect via your microphone. You'd only expect that though if you had high gain levels on your mic or it was cheap and not able to handle feedback well. Like everyone else, I'm surprised you had a problem.

Already some good solutions on here but you could also lower your speakers to minimise which part of the sound wave that hits that ceiling. Using a gate on your mic would effectively filter out sounds below a certain Db level but why bother if it's just one venue that causes what is only a small problem.

Looking at that venue, wouldn't the guests have thought you were talkling just like them - you know, with marbles in your mouth. If I arrived at a place as a grand as that in barnsley it could only be for a court appearance.

[Starlight]

I fail to see how sticking a compressor on one of your mic channels will circumvent the issue of a room with odd acoustics. Unless you mean to go on and say that it is paired off with an EQ with very high Q / narrow band filters to compensate for the troublesome room nodes. With a cheap graphic 1st in the chain you'd have a chance to both reduce dynamic range, raise RMS and flatten the response of the room as best you can. Is that what you mean?

I just know that with my mic and compressor, the compressor really helps bring out a good kick to my voiceovers, I'll do a recording later and do you a comparisson with and without compression and hopefully you'll understand more what I mean :D :) ;)

Neil.......

[Starlight]

Ok gentlemen,
Here we go then taking a look at a comparisson with/without compression, enjoy ;)

Neil.

Edit: Wen't to upload audio in here and although the upload completed and the post submitted, there's no audio attached! Does anyone know of a free uploading website I can upload my audio to please?

[Starlight]

Here is a link to the comparison audio. (http://www.4shared.com/file/258299387/e837e597/compressioncomparisson.html)

Neil.

[MagicMusic]

Not sure what your on about with the compressor. The only obvious difference to most people will be that the compressed audio is louder.

A common mistake in production is louder = better. Adding compression unnecessarily can (and usually does) add to any problem's rather than fix them. I don't think that a compressor is the answer to the OP's dillema.

Essentially a compressor is 'squashing' the audio that is being fed into it. It is true that a compressor can add extra 'kick' or depth to a sound but using it purely for make up gain is not the way to go. It makes more sense to try and deal with the original problem.

My opinion is the same as Happy Jack's, eq'ing the system to try and work around the problem frequencies would be of greater benefit and a graphic eq would be a far better investment for a mobile disco where we work in different venue's on a weekly basis.

[Starlight]

Not sure what your on about with the compressor. The only obvious difference to most people will be that the compressed audio is louder.

A common mistake in production is louder = better. Adding compression unnecessarily can (and usually does) add to any problem's rather than fix them. I don't think that a compressor is the answer to the OP's dillema.

Essentially a compressor is 'squashing' the audio that is being fed into it. It is true that a compressor can add extra 'kick' or depth to a sound but using it purely for make up gain is not the way to go. It makes more sense to try and deal with the original problem.

My opinion is the same as Happy Jack's, eq'ing the system to try and work around the problem frequencies would be of greater benefit and a graphic eq would be a far better investment for a mobile disco where we work in different venue's on a weekly basis.
I did the comparisson to give people an understanding that compression can add 'kick' and of course laudness to the sound and yes, I do agree that EQ can help too but I just think that a compressor can help a bit more as well, I know I'll be using a compressor in my mic chain in my discos ;)

Neil.

[MagicMusic]

I did the comparisson to give people an understanding that compression can add 'kick' and of course laudness to the sound and yes, I do agree that EQ can help too but I just think that a compressor can help a bit more as well, I know I'll be using a compressor in my mic chain in my discos ;)

Neil.

Fair enough but having listened to your comparisson it only seems to get louder. Even when I play it back at low level there doesn't appear to be any great amount of anything added to the sound - just level.

I understand what you are saying I just think that what your suggesting is treating the symptom rather than the cause. It is my opinion that a narrow band eq placed before amplification is a very useful tool to have, for the exact reason that caused the OP to post.

:beer1:

EDIT: I forgot to add that by using the compressor, 'squashing' the overall sound and then raising the output gain, you are increasing the amount of problem frequencies being fed into the signal - potentially adding to the problem!

[gaza]

I did the comparisson to give people an understanding that compression can add 'kick' and of course laudness to the sound and yes, I do agree that EQ can help too but I just think that a compressor can help a bit more as well, I know I'll be using a compressor in my mic chain in my discos ;)

Neil.




I do think that the sound clip with the compression sounded more rounded and sort of fuller, if that makes sense.
By the the way, i think that you sound a little like your avitar chap :D :D

[Starlight]

I do think that the sound clip with the compression sounded more rounded and sort of fuller, if that makes sense.
By the the way, i think that you sound a little like your avitar chap :D :D
Pmsfl! Yeah it does sound 'fuller' on the compressed take and also the threshold is set around -35db with a 4:1 ratio so the words, especially on the t's and b's do sound really punchy because when I did the take with no compression, the t's etc didn't really do it, sounded a bit dull and lifeless regardless of EQ. I did record that comparisson with a flat EQ (no EQ)

:)

Neil.