New speaker set up needed!

[kmssounds]

HI,

I havr had my tired Behringer set up for sometime now and the sound coming from them is just not clear and loud enough any more.

I am after enough sound to fill a hall with upto 1000 guests. I have seen the below and wanted someone elses thoughts on them. I am no genious when it comes to sound, I just need something "bassy" and loud.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4400-Watts-Max-RCL-Bass-Bins-Tops-Speaker-System_W0QQitemZ230443285831QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item35a77d7d47


Cheers!

[Danno13]

Not heard of any of those speakers, although they're only quoting "peak" ratings, which mean nothing and the actual real power will be around a quarter of that, and of course you have to think about sensitivity.

An 1000 person venue will take some serious PA so unless you're doing these size events often, it may be more sensible to look at hiring in extra kit - this needn't be expense either, one of my local places do 3k-5k of Martin Audio at around the £200-250+VAT mark on dry hire.

[kmssounds]

Cheers for the help,

an average event of mine takes around 300/400 guests but I want to just buy a set I can keep for all my gigs.

I was looking at EV but god that stuffs expensive.

Anyone got any ideas on whats best, but really don't want to go down the hire route!

[Danno13]

Do you have a budget? Also, what type of music do you expect to be playing? Are the 300-400 people likely to all be on the dance floor at the same time?

[kmssounds]

I can play anything from r&b to asian music. I also rent my gear to other djs.

normally could be around 75/100 on dance floor at one time.

Dont really want to spend more than 900 - 1000?

Tight budget for what I want?

[Danno13]

Not as tight as if all 300-400 would be dancing at the same time, but you still might struggle. Do you have any existing equpiment you can make use of, you mention the behringers, would these be ok for mid/top and maybe you could add some bass bin? Or double up the tops if they're not loud enough.. more drivers means more air moved and you could most likely run all 4 off one amp.

[kmssounds]

Yea on that note I have good mids. It is probably the bass im messing up with.

I think If I got a real good pai of bass bins that may do the trick.

Any recomendations?:confused:

[Tony Scott]

Hi Kaljit, what speakers do you already have, can you provide a link to them. It would be useful to see what you already have and how you are running it.

Do you use a cross-over, have you got more than one amp?

If your Mid-Hi Behringer's are ok then I would definitely think about spending your money on new bass cabs, a cross over and a new amp rather than going for an completely new system. A grand is not a lot of money if you are looking for a completely new system, you could try and find a decent second hand bargain.

I'm not sure about those RCL systems and as Dan has pointed out they don't supply any sensitivities or even frequency responses! The tops look OK but the bins are 'folded horns' which are good for House, Techno and Hard Dance but not great for RnB or really heavy Sub Bass unless they are stacked in groups of 4 or more. If you are looking to play a lot of RnB then some Relfex or proper Subs would be better IMO.

For a thousand people you'll probably need a couple of stacks like mine.... :D :D

[Rowleys]

Tony
how many amps do you run for all them

Do you use a crossover

[Tony Scott]

Tony
how many amps do you run for all them

Do you use a crossover

Yes I use a crossover, well actually it's a digital LMS (Loudspeaker Management System) which does a lot more than just sort out frequencies. It performs Equalizing, Delays, Limiter Protection etc. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx

To run the whole system takes 7 amps + 1 amp for monitors. The picture above is one half of the system.

Sub Bass - 2x Behringer EP2500 (Bridged @ 4ohms, 2000w)
Kick Bass - 2x Behringer EP2500 (Bridged @ 4ohms, 2000w)
Low Mids - 1x t-amp 2400 (Parallel @ 8ohms, 500w per channel )
Hi Mids - 1x t-amp 2400 (Parallel @ 8ohms, 500w per channel)
Hi - 1x Amcron(Crown) (Parallel @ 4ohms, 350w per channel)
Monitor - 1x t-amp 1450

:)

[kmssounds]

These are my Bass Bins:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1800X.aspx

My mids:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1520.aspx

I use a cross over and one amp and run one channel for bass and other for mids. It's a MONO set up and I know its all wrong but it has done me well untill now.:confused:

[Tony Scott]

These are my Bass Bins:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1800X.aspx

My mids:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B1520.aspx

I use a cross over and one amp and run one channel for bass and other for mids. It's a MONO set up and I know its all wrong but it has done me well untill now.:confused:

Nothing wrong with that, all my systems are MONO and my smallest rig is run with one amp and a crossover exactly how yours is. :)

[yourdj]

a Mackie thump system would be a good bet? I think they only do active but you can get a set of subs & tops for a good price.
If you sell you current system you could get some RCF's or something which is the best bet for the money.

I would get a second hand turbosound system though.

Either way if your doing asian stuff your going to need the low end.

[kmssounds]

Yea i really want hard deep bass, something i think my behringers just cand do?

I might just spend some good money on bass bins and keep my mids?

[A1DL]

I am after enough sound to fill a hall with upto 1000 guests.


Yea i really want hard deep bass, something i think my behringers just can't do?


I can play anything from r&b to asian music.
normally could be around 75/100 on dance floor at one time. Dont really want to spend more than 900 - 1000?



I'm going to assume the dancefloor area is very small, as you're expecting less than 10% of potential guests dancing at any one time. This, combined with your desire to fill the room with sound, means the focus is on the fills, not the FOH.

I'll also assume the 900 or so guests not dancing will be either seated around dinner tables, standing talking, etc. therefore you need to ensure the level of the fills is even and comfortable throughout the room. The music genres you are playing will deem FOH to be able to play loud, with a fat bottom end whilst ensuring you don't rip peoples faces off with the mid highs.

Thinking back to an event in London a few weeks ago, which was similar in terms of the genre (Asian acts+some Western, followed by a DJ), >600 seated for dinner, ~150 on a smallish dancefloor in the centre of a rectangular room, FOH on the wide aspect....

We used 2 stacks of Q on FOH (each stack comprising 2 No. 18" reflex subs and a Q7 top with 70deg(H) dispertion. Two pairs of Q-SUBs will certainly give you that deep bass you yearn for!

For fills, on both of the narrow aspects we used a pair of E3 on a twin fork, these boxes chosen for their 80deg(H) dispertion characteristics.


Assuming these are one day events, (couple of techs, setup early afternoon, going through to the early hours, breakdown thereafter and the location is Mid/Southern England, your budget looks reasonable and I'd be very happy to quote you.



Anyone got any ideas on whats best, but really don't want to go down the hire route!

Why on earth not? :confused: Hiring is your friend. The budget you have quoted is a sensible figure for an engineered hire, where you will get top end kit delivered, set up ready for you to mix the lineup (or DJ on), broken down and taken away, leaving you to concentrate on the event you are promoting, your DJing, or whatever.

Events for 500-1,000 pax have a suitable budget to engage the services they require (sufficient catering staff, security, larger venue hire, production).

To buy secondhand FOH & Fill boxes, amplification, processing, etc etc suitable of successfully achieving what you have set out in the OP, you need to multiply your budget tenfold at the very least. And unless you have a long string of purchase orders, now probably isn't the best time to invest thousands of pounds in noise toys.

[Tony Scott]

You could do a lot worse than going for a pair of these EV's and an amp to drive them. I use these amps week in week out and I've heard the bins which are extremely good for the price.

£500 the pair - 132db max spl@1mtr, 700w program and they go down to 36hz

* To buy: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1400W-PAIR-EV-Bass-Bin-Package-DJ-Speakers-Sound-Disco-/370297688206#ht_3036wt_988

* EV Spec: http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=139

* Amp: http://www.thomann.de/gb/t-amp_ta2400.htm

:)

[csg]

nice looking system Tony, always good to see people using custom systems with quality components - the martin audio HF horn for instance...

£1000 for events up to 1000 is not really realistic i fear - even for halls holding 300 it is really tight

try and go for quality over quantity where possible - this way your kit will last you and ultimately will become a lot cheaper. I would expect speaker cabs to last me at lest 10 years of intensive use, so whilst it might be more expensive at the beginning, it soon repays itself time and time again.

But, of course the temptation to buy cheap and cheerfull kit is strong. But there is a reason why it is cheap

so, my advice would be to spend your budget on a really good pair of full range boxes that can handle a dancefloor of 100 people, and then hire in additional sub bass and amps when required. Before you know it, you should have a budget available for some proper sub bass units as well, and then you will have a system that will continue to earn you money for years to come

look at speakers from repected and established manufacturers who can offer full spares support, and have a proven track record. RCF, Martin audio, Electrovoice, etc etc are good places to start

[csg]

P.S. A1 Tony - if you really want deep bass, this is the one for you....
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/csgal14tp/rubic2.jpg

not mine im afraid, but flat to 25Hz at obscene power levels - and it only needs a luton for transport....

[Tony Scott]

P.S. A1 Tony - if you really want deep bass, this is the one for you....
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/csgal14tp/rubic2.jpg

not mine im afraid, but flat to 25Hz at obscene power levels - and it only needs a luton for transport....

OH MY WORD! extended horn to the MAX!! :D The geeza looks a complete numpty though innit!! :D :D

Edit: Is that Rod?

[A1DL]

P.S. A1 Tony - if you really want deep bass, this is the one for you....
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii196/csgal14tp/rubic2.jpg

not mine im afraid, but flat to 25Hz at obscene power levels - and it only needs a luton for transport....


I've seen that photo before - on SP probably - is it real, photo-shopped or a conceptual drawing? The lack of handles and wheels suggest the latter.

[csg]

it does exsit, but was never built as a commercial product - im guessing as it has fairly limited application...
naturally, that image has some photoshopping, but only as far as putting the designer ( Rog Mogale) in the pic with his slightly dry sence of humor..

As much as i love Q series kit for its effortless and predictable results, it does not offer true deep bass in my opinion - but for disco work it is more than adequate

Some increasingly popular musical styles ( Dubstep for instance) require systems to play to 28 - 30Hz at their f3 point, something that ( despite D&B's very clever DSP) requires something quite a bit larger than q series at sensible levels

[Corabar Entertainment]

:ontopic:

[Tony Scott]

it does exsit, but was never built as a commercial product - im guessing as it has fairly limited application...
naturally, that image has some photoshopping, but only as far as putting the designer ( Rog Mogale) in the pic with his slightly dry sence of humor..

As much as i love Q series kit for its effortless and predictable results, it does not offer true deep bass in my opinion - but for disco work it is more than adequate

Some increasingly popular musical styles ( Dubstep for instance) require systems to play to 28 - 30Hz at their f3 point, something that ( despite D&B's very clever DSP) requires something quite a bit larger than q series at sensible levels

yeah rog not rod.... :o :)

[Corabar Entertainment]

yeah rog not rod.... :o :)OI!


:ontopic::p

[A1DL]

Some increasingly popular musical styles ( Dubstep for instance) require systems to play to 28 - 30Hz at their f3 point, something that ( despite D&B's very clever DSP) requires something quite a bit larger than q series at sensible levels

a pair (or 4) B2s normally suffices.

just a thought... dubstep + musical styles = oxymoron

[csg]

probably true - not my taste either, but an increasingly common and popular genre in the club sound system hires i put out

B2's, well thats another can of worms - marketed as an infrasub, but actually does very little below 37 hz - even in infa mode. Add a great deal of group delay, and you end up with soft, slow low bass that most people perceve as sub bass. Not for me im afraid, im not keen on the slow sluggish sound that sounds low due to its lack of speed. Just my personal opinion...and i'll admit i am probably in the minority!

With dub step and some drum and bass, its got to the point that ive ordered some infrasubs to augment the low bass on my main system, which already has a -3db point of 38Hz, but still misses some of the notes present in these genres....where do we stop, DC?

But, i guess time to get back on topic!

[kmssounds]

So what's the verdict on the EV's? Are they going to be alot better than my behringers? Will it give me good quality bass? Deep and low?

[A1DL]

B2's, well thats another can of worms - marketed as an infrasub, but actually does very little below 37 hz - even in infa mode. Add a great deal of group delay, and you end up with soft, slow low bass that most people perceve as sub bass. Not for me im afraid, im not keen on the slow sluggish sound that sounds low due to its lack of speed. Just my personal opinion...and i'll admit i am probably in the minority!

But at infra fequencies it's really all about grunt, not kick. B2s in infra mode underpin the kick of the Q-SUBs with a good low end extension, which (IMHO) I have never thought of as being "slow". Box for box, Q-SUB will of course be faster than B2, being a direct radiating cabinet, vs a bandpass horn.

[Corabar Entertainment]

a pair (or 4) B2s normally suffices.

just a thought... dubstep + musical styles = oxymoron


But at infra fequencies it's really all about grunt, not kick. B2s in infra mode underpin the kick of the Q-SUBs with a good low end extension, which (IMHO) I have never thought of as being "slow". Box for box, Q-SUB will of course be faster than B2, being a direct radiating cabinet, vs a bandpass horn.
Last time chaps! :ontopic: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Start another thread if you want to discuss, rather than hijacking / diluting the advice on this thread for kmssounds

[Tony Scott]

So what's the verdict on the EV's? Are they going to be alot better than my behringers? Will it give me good quality bass? Deep and low?

IMO they will be significantly better than the behringers.

If you also buy that amp I suggested you will be able to run 1 EV + 1 Behringer per side which will give you loads of bass leaving your current amp to do the Mid-Hi cabs. That's what I'd do in your situation.

BTW what frequency are you crossing over at present?

[Excalibur]

IMO they will be significantly better than the behringers.

If you also buy that amp I suggested you will be able to run 1 EV + 1 Behringer per side which will give you loads of bass leaving your current amp to do the Mid-Hi cabs. That's what I'd do in your situation.

BTW what frequency are you crossing over at present?

Indeed. If you were to substitute the EV's with the 18" Class D's, you could save £150. Not sure if you'd perhaps lose a bit of volume, but I suspect it would be minimal.

I've also been looking at the 15" Pro Class D's, but don't think you could fit them into the system as easily, though they could be brought in under the £1000 figure I think. There's a couple of interesting systems I think could be created for only just over the £100 mark.

Kaljit, whereabouts are you based? Not Midlands area by any chance? If so, the rest of the forum knows my next suggestion. Sorry folks. :o :o

[kmssounds]

Indeed. If you were to substitute the EV's with the 18" Class D's, you could save £150. Not sure if you'd perhaps lose a bit of volume, but I suspect it would be minimal.

I've also been looking at the 15" Pro Class D's, but don't think you could fit them into the system as easily, though they could be brought in under the £1000 figure I think. There's a couple of interesting systems I think could be created for only just over the £100 mark.

Kaljit, whereabouts are you based? Not Midlands area by any chance? If so, the rest of the forum knows my next suggestion. Sorry folks. :o :o

I'm from the West Yorkshire area?

I've had a chat with the rest of the lads and think it maybe better if I wait untill the end of May as we have a few venues which are little untill then. Its August time we are back up to the 1000+ guest events. So with all the revenue untill then, and sell our behringer set up for what ever it's worth I will be able to spend around 2k.

In that case I'm sure ill have a massive scope of what I need and a better range to buy from?

[A1DL]

I will be able to spend around 2k.

In that case I'm sure ill have a massive scope of what I need and a better range to buy from?

£2k will buy you one cabinet of pro audio kit new, or possibly 2 or 3 boxes secondhand (kit at a level suitable to form part of a system to fill a room for 1,000 people, as per your original spec.)

[Excalibur]

I'm from the West Yorkshire area?I've had a chat with the rest of the lads and think it maybe better if I wait untill the end of May as we have a few venues which are little untill then. Its August time we are back up to the 1000+ guest events. So with all the revenue untill then, and sell our behringer set up for what ever it's worth I will be able to spend around 2k.

In that case I'm sure ill have a massive scope of what I need and a better range to buy from?

Ah well, you have my sympathies. :( ( Only joking mate. :D :D :D )

No it's simply that if you were nearer the Midlands area, I'd have been inclined to suggest a trip to Mansfield, where a certain speaker company is based. If your budget rises to 2K in August, you may be spoilt for choice. Good luck.

[kmssounds]

Cheers for all your help guys!

One thing ive learnt through all this dj party thing is to buy quality first time and never have to buy again.

Got a 4 gigs in Ricoh Arena, Coventry this summer so its essential I get something sorted for then. If anyone has been there before I'm sure you'll agree my behringers would be no good what so ever lol!

[Excalibur]

£2k will buy you one cabinet of pro audio kit new, or possibly 2 or 3 boxes secondhand (kit at a level suitable to form part of a system to fill a room for 1,000 people, as per your original spec.)

You're shopping in the wrong places, Tony. Four boxes of Pro Audio for £1200 here. ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-X-Pro-Audio-M15s-4000W-Pro-Bass-Bins-By-Class-D_W0QQitemZ270369924251QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConEl ec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item3ef34da49b

Feed 'em with one of these,
http://www.thomann.de/gb/tamp_proline_3000.htm

and all you need is a couple of tops and another amp.

OK the serious bit, I'm sure Tony will tell us whether these boxes will provide the type of bass required. If not, then I'd have to say that it could be very very difficult to do for the money.

[A1DL]

You're shopping in the wrong places, Tony. Four boxes of Pro Audio for £1200 here. ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-X-Pro-Audio-M15s-4000W-Pro-Bass-Bins-By-Class-D_W0QQitemZ270369924251QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConEl ec_SpeakersPASystems_RL?hash=item3ef34da49b

Feed 'em with one of these,
http://www.thomann.de/gb/tamp_proline_3000.htm

and all you need is a couple of tops and another amp.

OK the serious bit, I'm sure Tony will tell us whether these boxes will provide the type of bass required. If not, then I'd have to say that it could be very very difficult to do for the money.

They're a 15" kick bin so they're not exactly going to growl. Peter, I couldn't even find on the specs how low they play, the only reference to frequencies I found was one made to the recommended crossover point when used in conjunction with subs.

Whilst I'm sure there is nothing wrong with them for many lower end applications, I refer back to the OP's brief, and as I explained in post #15, if the job is going to be done properly, i.e. to deliver quality sound at the right levels everywhere in a room for 1,000 people, whilst deploying a FOH system capable of deep bass on the dancefloor, to accurately represent the genres listed - the solution is much more technical (and expensive) than buying a load of budget boxes and stacking them high & wide.

I'm still struggling to understand why the OP is so opposed to hiring. Even if he were to buy secondhand stacks of C7, Floodlight, W8, etc, which would blow his budget out of the water - even before amps, processing & cabling - that would only give him a FOH solution, which will be great for the 10% of guests on the dancefloor.... but he's still got no fills for the other 90% in this 1,000 pax space, which apparently must be filled with sound.

I'm assuming he'll be in the Eon Lounge at Ricoh, which is ~1,300m2, (slightly larger than the 1,100m2 venue I referred to in my post). Attempting something of this size without the right equipment, including sufficient redundancy, would be ridiculous.

[Excalibur]

They're a 15" kick bin so they're not exactly going to growl. Peter, I couldn't even find on the specs how low they play, the only reference to frequencies I found was one made to the recommended crossover point when used in conjunction with subs.

.

Right Tony, that's the bit I wasn't sure of. To me, a sub is a sub. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o That would be why Class D suggest running these over the monstrous 218's, which I have linked to before. They suggest running the 218's up to 130 Hz, which would mean the 15's starting at that point.

I've heard the 15's and they're lovely, but obviously not suited to the application the OP wanted. Thanks for the education Tony. As always it's appreciated.

[A1DL]

Right Tony, that's the bit I wasn't sure of. To me, a sub is a sub. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o That would be why Class D suggest running these over the monstrous 218's, which I have linked to before. They suggest running the 218's up to 130 Hz, which would mean the 15's starting at that point.


I understand that Peter, but used on their own, the 15"s will obviously go quite a bit lower than 130hz, although the specs don't share the all important numbers with us!

I read your recommendation as "these" boxes + "that" amp as a system, which would spend the OP's £2k budget (i.e. without any 218s)

[Excalibur]

I understand that Peter, but used on their own, the 15"s will obviously go quite a bit lower than 130hz, although the specs don't share the all important numbers with us!
I read your recommendation as "these" boxes + "that" amp as a system, which would spend the OP's £2k budget (i.e. without any 218s)

Not unusual for there Tony. :( Yes, I appreciate they'll go lower, but not provide what the OP asked for. My initial suggestion was indeed for four 15" boxes and a Proline amp, with probably a 12" pair of Class D tops and a T amp 1400 to drive them. That lot would just have crept over the 2K budget. Adding 218's might come slightly nearer the desired effect, but even that would be way way over budget.

I'm also slowly beginning to understand that you're envisaging filling the whole room with sound, rather than deafening the three front rows like I'm planning. :o :o :o :o That is inded something which:
1) Is gonna cost serious money to buy.
2) I have no expertise in.
3) I'd be inclined to hire in, if you're going to need the amount of kit you're advising.


Bear with us Tony, you're educating us slowly but surely.

[A1DL]

I'm also slowly beginning to understand that you're envisaging filling the whole room with sound, rather than deafening the three front rows like I'm planning.

spot on buddy, as the OP stated;



I am after enough sound to fill a hall with upto 1000 guests.

and


normally could be around 75/100 on dance floor at one time.

[Tony Scott]

I understand that Peter, but used on their own, the 15"s will obviously go quite a bit lower than 130hz, although the specs don't share the all important numbers with us!

According to an old SP thread I remember reading these are just a copy of an HD15 band-pass horn, useful from around 50hz...