Working With Sound Engineers......

[rossken]

When I arrived at Friday night's gig I was told I was going to be using the band's PA as there wasn't enough space (or current) to run two.

Anyway, they were runnig TOA Amps and Logic System Speakers. The amp rack (sorry about the quality of the photo - only had my iPhone) -

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The band had their own sound engineer and during their sound check I thought it sound pretty good, very loud, but good.

They finished their sound check just as people arrived, so I didn't get a sound check. But I put on some background music, the sound engineer set the levels, then left with the band to go and eat.

The sound, IMO, was pretty nasty. Now, I'm not by any means an expert, but it just didn't sound good. So I adjusted the EQs on my mixer to get it to where I thought it should be. A short while later the sound engineer came back and adjusted his levels to compensate. This continued throughout the night

What I don't understand is how the band sounded good, but the disco sounded pretty rubbish. Personally, I felt I got a nicer sound out of my own, cheap and cheerful PA, than this 4 and a something kW PA.

Any experiences with working with sound engineers? How did you get on?

And a photo of the stage......

8436

[DJ James Lake]

Maybe it was intentional on the sound engineers side to make the band sound better than the dj. Personally I would have got my sound system in there somewhere.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Maybe it was intentional on the sound engineers side to make the band sound better than the dj. Personally I would have got my sound system in there somewhere.


:agree:

[djsteve10]

Yeah I was working alongside a band a few weeks ago and I was plugged into their FBT rig. The speakers were the FBT Verve range running 15" tops and 18" bass bins.

The disco sound fine during background music until I was asked to make an announcement and welcome the guests... I was compressed to hell and sounded like I had my head in a bucket.

When I finally got around to running the disco my mixer was red lining bad so I asked the sound engineer to give me more headroom as it was only at background level and I couldn't run a disco like this. He then told me that he couldn't give me any more output and that I had to reduce my signal as I was too loud.

So within half an hour I had made a phone call and had my mate bring his Logic Systems rig down to the venue and swapped over very quickly.

I couldn't work like it and I wasn't happy at all!

[rossken]

Maybe it was intentional on the sound engineers side to make the band sound better than the dj. Personally I would have got my sound system in there somewhere.

I never thought of it like that. You may be right.

[rossken]

Yeah I was working alongside a band a few weeks ago and I was plugged into their FBT rig. The speakers were the FBT Verve range running 15" tops and 18" bass bins.

The disco sound fine during background music until I was asked to make an announcement and welcome the guests... I was compressed to hell and sounded like I had my head in a bucket.

When I finally got around to running the disco my mixer was red lining bad so I asked the sound engineer to give me more headroom as it was only at background level and I couldn't run a disco like this. He then told me that he couldn't give me any more output and that I had to reduce my signal as I was too loud.

So within half an hour I had made a phone call and had my mate bring his Logic Systems rig down to the venue and swapped over very quickly.

I couldn't work like it and I wasn't happy at all!

I was exactly the same, although the sound engineer said he had "plenty of volume his end", but when I asked him to turn it up, he adjusted something slightly, and walked off. I was forced to continue to run my mixer into the red.
I wish I just set up my own PA.

[A1DL]

A few thoughts on this subject from the perspective of a FOH tech;

1. The photo in the OP shows a smallish venue and it's not clear whether the FOH engineer was actually at FOH. Mixing FOH from side stage is a big no-no, although many pub/club circuit bands that come with their own sound tech do so because of laziness, lack of correct tools for the job, limited venue space, insufficient setup time, or some other excuse.

2. It's always difficult to make the DJ sound fantastic after a live set. Heavily compressed recorded music won't compete with the dynamics and presence of a live band, even if the band aren't particularly loud.

3. A DJ will always "want it louder", but with respect, the FOH levels are the responsibility of the FOH tech, not the DJ. I'll typically compress the DJ feed at the start of their set between 10dB and 20dB (the former if the night is in full swing, the latter if it's warmups) and open up the comp as the night progresses and their set builds... otherwise nine times out of ten they will play stupidly loud early on, every track getting a little louder and leaving you no headroom for when you need it later in the night.

4. I really doubt a FOH tech would intentionally make a DJ sound "bad", doing so makes the tech look more of a bellend than it does the DJ, as he/she is supposed to be the sound expert. I look at it like this - a DJ is just like any other performer and his/her CD decks and DJ mixer are their instruments. My job is to make all performers sound as good as I can make them sound, be that a vocalist, guitarist, full band or indeed a DJ. It should never be a competition between DJ and band, although some DJs (and bands) don't think this way.


Personally, I felt I got a nicer sound out of my own, cheap and cheerful PA, than this 4 and a something kW PA.

I'm unsure what the relevance of amplifier power is to whether something sounds good or bad, although I doubt a "cheap & cheerful" PA would have kept up with the Logic boxes which (should) if set up correctly, have sounded good.

[DJ James Lake]

3. A DJ will always "want it louder", but with respect, the FOH levels are the responsibility of the FOH tech, not the DJ. I'll typically compress the DJ feed at the start of their set between 10dB and 20dB (the former if the night is in full swing, the latter if it's warmups) and open up the comp as the night progresses and their set builds... otherwise nine times out of ten they will play stupidly loud early on, every track getting a little louder and leaving you no headroom for when you need it later in the night.



A bit broad speaking on point 3 certainly not how I work

[Chris1984]

Im not a sound engineer but have shared many FOH positions with them and have seen what a night mere most dj's can be - agree 100% with Tony.

It's the big boys who seem to be the worst they just drive their mixer so hard and wizz all the nobs to ma and wonder why it sounds nasty - as the saying goes you cant polish a turd - you cant make clipping noise sound good!

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Whilst im not a qualified sound engineer, i can do bit and get a band sounding nice. More on the job training more than anything else.

The worst people ive ever came across for redlining a mixer are professional hard house djs, although nearly every club jock i know doesnt give 2 hoots about the flashing lights on their mixer

[rossken]

A few thoughts on this subject from the perspective of a FOH tech;

1. The photo in the OP shows a smallish venue and it's not clear whether the FOH engineer was actually at FOH. Mixing FOH from side stage is a big no-no, although many pub/club circuit bands that come with their own sound tech do so because of laziness, lack of correct tools for the job, limited venue space, insufficient setup time, or some other excuse.

The sound engineer was at the back of the hall. The band that were playing are not a "pub/club circuit band", they are mainly seen at large concerts and festivals, such as The Wickerman, Belladrum etc.



3. A DJ will always "want it louder", but with respect, the FOH levels are the responsibility of the FOH tech, not the DJ. I'll typically compress the DJ feed at the start of their set between 10dB and 20dB (the former if the night is in full swing, the latter if it's warmups) and open up the comp as the night progresses and their set builds... otherwise nine times out of ten they will play stupidly loud early on, every track getting a little louder and leaving you no headroom for when you need it later in the night.

The sound engineer set the levels at the start of the night (background music) and didn't turn up the volume for during the disco. I wasn't asking for it to be loud, just a bit louder than background level.




I'm unsure what the relevance of amplifier power is to whether something sounds good or bad, although I doubt a "cheap & cheerful" PA would have kept up with the Logic boxes which (should) if set up correctly, have sounded good.

I completely agree with you! It SHOULD have sounded better, but I didn't think it did. That was only my personal opinion, but I am by no means an expert.

[super-hero]

As said above, I don't think they would have been trying to make you sound bad.
It may be that where your mixer was running into the red it was distorting, and that was what was making it sound bad.

[Excalibur]

A few thoughts on this subject from the perspective of a FOH tech;



4. I really doubt a FOH tech would intentionally make a DJ sound "bad", doing so makes the tech look more of a bellend than it does the DJ, as he/she is supposed to be the sound expert. I look at it like this - a DJ is just like any other performer and his/her CD decks and DJ mixer are their instruments. My job is to make all performers sound as good as I can make them sound, be that a vocalist, guitarist, full band or indeed a DJ. It should never be a competition between DJ and band, although some DJs (and bands) don't think this way..
I disagree. Tony, in your world, I have no doubt whatsoever that all artistes work together like true professionals. It doesn't always happen in mine. Let's leave it there. ;)

Ah, you see. Now we're back in the real world. ;) ;) :D :D :D
Re point 1), yes it's wrong to set sound from the side. Out front is the only place.





I'm unsure what the relevance of amplifier power is to whether something sounds good or bad, although I doubt a "cheap & cheerful" PA would have kept up with the Logic boxes which (should) if set up correctly, have sounded good.

The power of the rig is as you say immaterial. The issue here is not being allowed to make adjustments to achieve a pleasant sound, regardless of the volume.

I can make Class D sound as good as RCF :D :D :D , but I can never make them sound as loud. :( :( :(

[Tony Scott]

Those 300D TOA amps look huge don't they?... 4U. However they are only 480w/per channel at 4ohms and won't go to 2ohm. I used to have 2 of them and they were back breaking to carry, three in a rack must be stupid to lift!

Fantastic quality but cost me around £2000 each. :eek:

[Excalibur]

Those 300D TOA amps look huge don't they?... 4U. However they are only 480w/per channel at 4ohms and won't go to 2ohm. I used to have 2 of them and they were back breaking to carry, three in a rack must be stupid to lift!

Fantastic quality but cost me around £2000 each. :eek:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. With those size, weight and cost parameters, with the new lightweight Class D amps, I think you'd get about five or six Gigawatts!!!! :eek: :eek: :D :D :D :D :D

[CRAZY K]

When I arrived at Friday night's gig I was told I was going to be using the band's PA as there wasn't enough space (or current) to run two.

Anyway, they were runnig TOA Amps and Logic System Speakers. The amp rack (sorry about the quality of the photo - only had my iPhone) -

8435

The band had their own sound engineer and during their sound check I thought it sound pretty good, very loud, but good.

They finished their sound check just as people arrived, so I didn't get a sound check. But I put on some background music, the sound engineer set the levels, then left with the band to go and eat.

The sound, IMO, was pretty nasty. Now, I'm not by any means an expert, but it just didn't sound good. So I adjusted the EQs on my mixer to get it to where I thought it should be. A short while later the sound engineer came back and adjusted his levels to compensate. This continued throughout the night

What I don't understand is how the band sounded good, but the disco sounded pretty rubbish. Personally, I felt I got a nicer sound out of my own, cheap and cheerful PA, than this 4 and a something kW PA.

Any experiences with working with sound engineers? How did you get on?

And a photo of the stage......

8436

Oh yes---I went through an RCF pro system at an Essex venue where the likes of Richard Digance perform--cant remember the name for a minute--anyway everything was studio quality and they actually had a recording studio in the venue as well.

What I did not realise was although I was putting my mixer through a main box on stage it was being ultimately controlled at the back of the room by a master engineer.

This IDIOT kept on playing with the settings on my music and mike as the evening progressed and BEING A NO BRAINER ( smilie would be appreciated )
kept downing the volume--not realising that I increase the volume as the evening progresses not because im a noise maniac but because people get louder and louder as the happy juice flows so I need more mike and music volume to get over the top of the audience noise.

I kept sliding up my mixer levels and this MORON kept dropping them at the mixing desk--in the end my mixer was flat out and that was it--they gave some
rubbish about the neighbours--ill bet if that was Richard Digance this bloke would be told to go forth and multiply.

Anyway I could either complain to the client that my show was being compromised by this :muppet: who obviously knew nothing about my job or not bother.

He obviously decided the level a barn dance should be played at---even though he admitted he didnt know anything about it:bang:

As there was no chance of repeat business I didnt bother to complain and the show was certainly not as Crazy as it should have been--clients wouldnt know that of course.

I wont be playing there again:eek: --however I have found most Bands and Discos very understanding when going through their equipment.

Im sure a lot of these guys do a great job--this guy was just a control freaking:muppet:

[Tony Scott]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. With those size, weight and cost parameters, with the new lightweight Class D amps, I think you'd get about five or six Gigawatts!!!! :eek: :eek: :D :D :D :D :D

LOL... how times have changed? I bought mine back in 1988. They had no fans in them but the biggest heatsinks you've ever seen on an amp.

They really were stupidly well built with no compromise on components or materials used. The front panel was cast alloy and everything inside was modular so it could be stripped down in about 10 minutes on site and bits replaced as required. They were also one of the first serious amps to have plug-in EQ modules I believe.

I loved those amps but had to let them go because they were just not practical for mobile work, great for the big systems though. :)

[Disco Tech Liverpool]

I done a school prom last year and totally blew the band away. They were a jazz orchestra mind you but luckily for me they had hauled in Adlib Audio to do the sound, they saw me arrive and told me that I was to go through their PA as that had what it had been booked for, to serve the band and the disco. No complaints from me, had good old chin wag with the engineers throughout the night, had an awesome sound and even found out that Adlib Audio had charged the University £16,000 for their services. This with a PA that my mate has for playing on the circuit as a vocal guitarist for around £300-£400 a night.

The other was last Friday, a couple of guys had been brought in to provide sound and engineering for the band at a wedding. Decent sized room. They used JBL tops and Dynacord bins (around 8k rig), they were great guys and were totally amazed at my 2k rig sounding better than theirs. In no way was I as loud as their rig, but the quality definately came from mine. The guy I mentioned in the last paragraph would have blown their rig away, even at only 4k. Sometimes clarity and quality is a lot better than volume. If you have the 2 of them then you really can't go wrong.