One Bin 2 Satellite Tops???

[yourdj]

I am in the process of looking for an active system and have been guided towards one of these or similar from another post?

Active sub with an output for two passive tops (RCF art 310) all on one pole.

http://www.ld-systems.com/files/dave15.jpg

Question 1:

would just this suffice for an average disco (ie 100-150 people in a normal venue) and would the fact the tops are not spread out cause a sound problem :confused:

I like to keep things simple and this seems a good option. As on half of my set up will be open for people to come and ask for requests. Also being active I loose my amprack, one sub, one set of speakers and move my decks back on a stand as Elite said i think "it will get knocked over one day" and he is right as people keep knocking in to it :(

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_044PTfUkGaA/S_CYBI_5u5I/AAAAAAAACUY/nJ5EPkPKHcU/s320/setup4.jpg

Question 2:

Can anyone suggest a decent sub like this? I have spent hours looking & am really getting confused with which ones cater for powered satilite out and all. Ones i found are Fhhon, the box (thomann), LD, HK lucas etc. (I am not very good at understanding sound and all and do not want to buy the wrong thing :confused: )

It needs to be as light as possible (20-35kg) and cater for my art 310's on a t bar type thing.

I think a 15 inch would be best as the 12's do not have enough power (i think) although the 12inch fhhon ones seem pretty impressive.

Budget - £400-£1200 so quite a range really :)

[TONYTIGER]

I am in the process of looking for an active system and have been guided towards one of these or similar from another post?

Active sub with an output for two passive tops (RCF art 310) all on one pole.

http://www.ld-systems.com/files/dave15.jpg

Question 1:

would just this suffice for an average disco (ie 100-150 people in a normal venue) and would the fact the tops are not spread out cause a sound problem :confused:

I like to keep things simple and this seems a good option. As on half of my set up will be open for people to come and ask for requests. Also being active I loose my amprack, one sub, one set of speakers and move my decks back on a stand as Elite said i think "it will get knocked over one day" and he is right as people keep knocking in to it :(

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_044PTfUkGaA/S_CYBI_5u5I/AAAAAAAACUY/nJ5EPkPKHcU/s320/setup4.jpg

Question 2:

Can anyone suggest a decent sub like this? I have spent hours looking & am really getting confused with which ones cater for powered satilite out and all. Ones i found are Fhhon, the box (thomann), LD, HK lucas etc. (I am not very good at understanding sound and all and do not want to buy the wrong thing :confused: )

It needs to be as light as possible (20-35kg) and cater for my art 310's on a t bar type thing.

I think a 15 inch would be best as the 12's do not have enough power (i think) although the 12inch fhhon ones seem pretty impressive.

Budget - £400-£1200 so quite a range really :)

If your going down this road you are would be wise to split your two RCF 310s left and right stage you then stick the sub some where central,even under your deck stand as the sub will be in mono which is normal.
The Fhhon is the best of the lot,LD is not great.This would be fine for the sort of gigs you have indicated.

[Corabar Steve]

LD is not great.This would be fine for the sort of gigs you have indicated.Interesting, I was looking at some of these (the mk2 version) yesterday (although foolishly neglected to ask for a demo). Have you had any experience of the LD system? Why is it not great?

[yourdj]

If your going down this road you are would be wise to split your two RCF 310s left and right stage you then stick the sub some where central,even under your deck stand as the sub will be in mono which is normal.
The Fhhon is the best of the lot,LD is not great.This would be fine for the sort of gigs you have indicated.

Thanks for that.

I would rather have two subs and poles if thats the case - would not want to go back to tripods. do you know of a fohhn system that sells just the sub?

wont bother with LD i think its just too cheap IMO. I might try it that way and then possibly get two subs if its not much cop or as you say spilt them up :confused: what would i get that will suffice perfectly for the RCF's?

[Corabar Steve]

Which of the LD systsms is it Toby? Looks like a DAVE, but is it a 10, 12, or 15?

[yourdj]

Which of the LD systsms is it Toby? Looks like a DAVE, but is it a 10, 12, or 15?

I am looking at the Dave 15 but i cant see it being powerful enough?
two 12's would be fine (they should have called that one Rodney) but that defeats the purpose.

The Fohhn ones look great! great output and nice light & compact but they cost £2k+ which is a bit over budget? I would not mind two subs 5-700 watts each) each with one passive out at about 300 watts RMS. That would be perfect!

I am half thinking of using my tapco thumps as tops and getting some normal active subs as they are not too bad :confused: the back up is good too as you have four separate amps & speakers.

Then i could sell the RCF's as they are in excellent condition.

[paulg]

That's an LD Systems Dave 15 by the looks of it. Looking at the spec sheets there is a strange use of data but I think it's fair to say that the system won't give you much headroom or oomph at all so it might not be what you need. What more could you expect for £700?

The HK Audio single subs and twin satellite systems (Lucas Impact, Max and Alpha) are easily the best if that is where you want to go but there are major downsides though to them. Firstly, looking at HK, they are expensive and some people report that the newer kit is not as reliable as the older models. Whether this is true or not is hard to establish.

Secondly, if the sub unit goes pop, you will be left with no sound output at all so you are putting all of your eggs in one basket. We moved away from using these (excellent) systems for that reason. You really need to carry a small amp/mixer to power the tops in case of emergency. This applies to all of the 3 box systems you are looking at.

If you're looking to run one of these subs with your existing tops, it's not easy to buy them without the tops (Dynacord sell one but it is £2000) and they are often set up to balance with specific tops. For example, the Hk1000 uses 2x4 ohm tops with small drivers but the overall sound when matched to the sub is very good.

If I was you, I'd stick with what you have or at least look at a 3 box active system with amps in each unit.

[TONYTIGER]

Interesting, I was looking at some of these (the mk2 version) yesterday (although foolishly neglected to ask for a demo). Have you had any experience of the LD system? Why is it not great?

Have had a few Ld systems in the work shop and compared to powered subs from RCF,db technologies,& Fohnn there not in the same class but then they are much cheaper so you get what you pay for.

I think they are loaded with Emmince Kappas not my favourite driver also they are made of multiplex another word for chipboard also the inbuilt clip limiter is very aggressive also x over point is 120 htz which is a bit high.
Just my opinions but its all down to budget and your exspectations.

[TONYTIGER]

Thanks for that.

I would rather have two subs and poles if thats the case - would not want to go back to tripods. do you know of a fohhn system that sells just the sub?

wont bother with LD i think its just too cheap IMO. I might try it that way and then possibly get two subs if its not much cop or as you say spilt them up :confused: what would i get that will suffice perfectly for the RCF's?

For details re Fhonn www.quitelound.com or www.livesystems.co.uk/

Yes they are a lot of money but in my opinion best powered sub around.
I also rate db technologies and there old range 15" 800w powered is quite light and very good value.

[yourdj]

That's an LD Systems Dave 15 by the looks of it. Looking at the spec sheets there is a strange use of data but I think it's fair to say that the system won't give you much headroom or oomph at all so it might not be what you need. What more could you expect for £700?

The HK Audio single subs and twin satellite systems (Lucas Impact, Max and Alpha) are easily the best if that is where you want to go but there are major downsides though to them. Firstly, looking at HK, they are expensive and some people report that the newer kit is not as reliable as the older models. Whether this is true or not is hard to establish.

Secondly, if the sub unit goes pop, you will be left with no sound output at all so you are putting all of your eggs in one basket. We moved away from using these (excellent) systems for that reason. You really need to carry a small amp/mixer to power the tops in case of emergency. This applies to all of the 3 box systems you are looking at.

If you're looking to run one of these subs with your existing tops, it's not easy to buy them without the tops (Dynacord sell one but it is £2000) and they are often set up to balance with specific tops. For example, the Hk1000 uses 2x4 ohm tops with small drivers but the overall sound when matched to the sub is very good.

If I was you, I'd stick with what you have or at least look at a 3 box active system with amps in each unit.

Thanks for that. great reply ;)

Your right about the reliability of the whole system going down. on the basis of that i will not choose this sort of system. I may however get two of them. I can always buy the complete systems and sell the satellites.

Would there be a way of combining the two passive outputs in to one?
I have an amp bloke who is pretty good and could knock up a third output somewhere?

[Corabar Steve]

They look like the mk1 version (the fronts appear to be only foam with no grilles). The mk 2 has had some improvements made to it (including (apparently) swapping the chipboard for ply among other things). I really wish I'd asked for a listen yesterday now.

[yourdj]

They look like the mk1 version (the fronts appear to be only foam with no grilles). The mk 2 has had some improvements made to it (including (apparently) swapping the chipboard for ply among other things). I really wish I'd asked for a listen yesterday now.

I was just chatting to your old mate Steve (boogie down :p ) he has a similar system but its gemini and not too bad considering the cost.

He said the DB opera ones are excellent for the cost and has installed one in to a venue. It would be interesting how you get on with the LD ones though as two ten or twelve incher systems would be more than adequate for the average wedding i think :confused:

There is a great 3D view thing here for those interested http://www.ld-systems.com/44-1-ld-dave-12.html

and a decent review here: http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may09/articles/ldsystemsdave12.htm

[yourdj]

They look like the mk1 version (the fronts appear to be only foam with no grilles). The mk 2 has had some improvements made to it (including (apparently) swapping the chipboard for ply among other things). I really wish I'd asked for a listen yesterday now.

Your right. It appears the G2 versions are a bit better.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/ld_systems_dave_12_g2.htm

[paulg]

Thanks for that. great reply ;)

Your right about the reliability of the whole system going down. on the basis of that i will not choose this sort of system. I may however get two of them. I can always buy the complete systems and sell the satellites.

Would there be a way of combining the two passive outputs in to one?
I have an amp bloke who is pretty good and could knock up a third output somewhere?

The best thing to do is get two powered tops and two powered subs capable of stereo out. That way you can mix and match - tops only for smalll venues, tops and 1 sub for medium sized venues and 2 tops / 2 subs for bigger places. Alternatively stick with amps and do the same but with passive tops and subs. There isn't really a shortcut and mixing and matching doesn't always produce good results.

[yourdj]

The best thing to do is get two powered tops and two powered subs capable of stereo out. That way you can mix and match - tops only for smalll venues, tops and 1 sub for medium sized venues and 2 tops / 2 subs for bigger places. Alternatively stick with amps and do the same but with passive tops and subs. There isn't really a shortcut and mixing and matching doesn't always produce good results.

so do you think i could use my tapco thumps and some half decent 12 inch subs :confused:

[Sapphire Disco]

so do you think i could use my tapco thumps and some half decent 12 inch subs :confused:

Don't forget there are very few active subs that will drive your tops as well :)

[Happy Jack]

Don't forget there are very few active subs that will drive your tops as well :)

The LD Dave system, while fine for all intents standalone, represents something of a concession on what is already a fine setup. Given the pedigree of the some of the powered systems in these threads, I get the impression that an 'upgrade' in quality / output isn't essential.

Will have to echo Tony then, and suggest that you look at the X Series from Fohhn. A much better investment. The XS 20, single 12" sub, effectively contains the drive and LMS and seems to fit the bill exactly. Page 12 of their brochure explains their 'basic' and 'power' setups and configurations. Very flexible!

http://www.fohhn.com/uploads/media/Fohhn_Prosp_XP_II_III_en.pdf

With the correct preset, you could certainly use the single XS 20 to drive both your RCF 310's with the appropriate preset in Audio Soft. When the time came, you'd may consider equipping yourself with a pair of their passive tops, the XT 22's, and a passive sub, the XSP 2, for a full Fohhn setup.

[ur]http://www.fohhn.com/index.php?id=56&L=1&tx_fohhnproducts_pi1[fohhnproducts]=87&cHash=dccd5c3516[/url]

A point worth adding, is that the onboard DSP is configured to compensate for tonal imbalance at varying levels. Think Fletcher-Munson curves and A-weighting; at high output the response begins to flatten so not to dazzle anyone in the near-field, and it does this 'automatically'. Near studio quality reproduction, the XS 20 system may not have the SPL you crave, but will easily cater for 200 people or so.

[paulg]

so do you think i could use my tapco thumps and some half decent 12 inch subs :confused:

No, not really. I might get lambasted (again) for this but 12 inch subs are a bit of an oxymoron. I can't see how a 12 inch cone will deliver low frequencies at a sufficiently high volume to be of much use other than in very small venues. Combined with 12 inch (?) Tapco Thumps, the sound will be very much in the middle of the frequency spectrum.

If you want to run passive tops through a powered sub, then the sub needs a bass amp and also inbuilt amps for your tops.

All in all, it depends what sound you want. We can go from quiet right up to SPL's that you can feel on your chest at the back of large room. That suits us because we seldom do any venues smaller than WMC's. Generally, a 12 inch top with say a 1 inch voice coil needs at at least a fifteen inch sub. A higher output 12 inch top with a bigger voicecoil needs an 18 inch sub with some considerable output. We've done venue tests using several combinations so I'm writing here using practical knowledge.

[yourdj]

I get the impression that an 'upgrade' in quality / output isn't essential.

suggest that you look at the X Series from Fohhn. Very flexible!

Thanks for that :) You are right and an upgrade is always a good thing but not essential to me at the moment as i cannot afford it. i would have to do a dozen gigs to pay for that :p

What i think i will do is buy one of those dave things and see for myself as they are pretty good value. I am considering getting two 12 inchers. In time i think the fohhn is a VERY good purchase as it ticks every box possible!

light (20kg!), powerful (100watt), quality sound - compact:

http://www.soundcheck.de/fileadmin/user_upload/sondcheck/Ausgaben/Download_pdf/BBox_Fohhn_3.jpg

I am selling all my stuff nearer christmas so will get a Rodney before hand and trial it.

i have the Tapco's if it just cant cut it.

[Happy Jack]

Thanks for that :) You are right and an upgrade is always a good thing but not essential to me at the moment as i cannot afford it.
No worries.

This review of the Dave system is a good read, if you need any more convincing!

http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may09/articles/ldsystemsdave12.htm

[yourdj]

No worries.

This review of the Dave system is a good read, if you need any more convincing!

http://www.performing-musician.com/pm/may09/articles/ldsystemsdave12.htm

Cheers, Thats what swayed me.

I linked to that a few posts ago. I use two 12 inch subs now with passive crossovers and i often get asked to reduce the bass levels. I think this would do fine? Shame there are no Decent DJ shops capable of a demo near me?

Might give blue arran a call and see if they have one. :) They sell the DAP pro range which has a similar system.

[Sapphire Disco]

You know now I'm wondering what 2 Dave's would sound like one each side of the rig :banana: :banana:

[Punchy]

I`ve played with a lucas HK audio 1000. Sounds lovely
Despite it being lightweight, the bass bin goes low and has plenty of boom.

[yourdj]

Which of the LD systsms is it Toby? Looks like a DAVE, but is it a 10, 12, or 15?

Just bought a DAVE system today. Will let you know how i get on :)
Its the old one but cant be a million miles from the upgraded one :confused:

Im gonna give it a go as i got a good price just our of interest, but i am definitely gunning for a fhonn one at some point soon as its so compact for 1000 watts ;) and exactly what i need to go with my RCF tops.

Just need to find £2000 :p

[Corabar Entertainment]

I thought they had made some significant improvements with the new ones Toby.

Plus, don't the old ones just have foam on the front (ie no grill)? Can't imagine that being particularly suitable for mobile use! :eek:

[djsteve10]

I thought they had made some significant improvements with the new ones Toby.

Plus, don't the old ones just have foam on the front (ie no grill)? Can't imagine that being particularly suitable for mobile use! :eek:

I have an LD Dave 15 system but all the drivers were replaced with Fane ones after the bass bin blew.

There are foam grills on them but behind the foam grills there is a metal grill anyway so there is alot of protection.

[yourdj]

I thought they had made some significant improvements with the new ones Toby.

Plus, don't the old ones just have foam on the front (ie no grill)? Can't imagine that being particularly suitable for mobile use! :eek:

I got it cheap so thought what the hell. :) I am still using the passive set up but will have a go with this one at some point. Im doing a massive venue next month so will add that and a mackie sub. :)

[TONYTIGER]

I got it cheap so thought what the hell. :) I am still using the passive set up but will have a go with this one at some point. Im doing a massive venue next month so will add that and a mackie sub. :)

I am rather surprised you bought the mark one version after your comments post
4 .
Cheap drivers not likely to last very long and chipboard cab i would have thought the mark 2 is a much better bet as mentioned by another user he had to replace the driver so perhaps that,s why you got it so cheap poor resale value when you get your Fhonn.

[yourdj]

I am rather surprised you bought the mark one version after your comments post
4 .
Cheap drivers not likely to last very long and chipboard cab i would have thought the mark 2 is a much better bet as mentioned by another user he had to replace the driver so perhaps that,s why you got it so cheap poor resale value when you get your Fhonn.

Yes agreed. i did get it at a good price. More of a get it and see purchase as i have been going on about these system all week so i thought i would give the cheap one a go before purchasing a more expensive one. :)

I doubt I will use it for playout every week but it would suffice for a small venue or my sunday chill outside gig?

[paulg]

Yes agreed. i did get it at a good price. More of a get it and see purchase as i have been going on about these system all week so i thought i would give the cheap one a go before purchasing a more expensive one. :)

I doubt I will use it for playout every week but it would suffice for a small venue or my sunday chill outside gig?

Are you made of money??? Can I have some please?

Seriously, you might be headed down an expensive road to nowhere. Best thing you could do would be to get an honest appraisal from a decent friendly DJ about what you're doing now and what you want to do in the future. We've been through all this chopping and changing of kit and basically, all you are doing is keeping the manufacturers and retailers happy. Many of them will lie, mislead and misquote to get a sale without much concern about you (Not aimed at you,TonyTiger). After much expense buying Hk Audio, Mackie, Db (urghh), I personally have arrived at having 2 RCF tops and 2 RCF 4PRO subs and I am very happy. I should have done something like this years ago. I can mix and match now to suit almost any venue or music style with just 4 pieces of kit and it pays for itself because you can cover a wider range of venues. It's an approach worth considering.

[yourdj]

you might be headed down an expensive road to nowhere.

I personally have arrived at having 2 RCF tops and 2 RCF 4PRO subs and I am very happy.

Probably. not too much expense as I say i got a good price. I will see what the Rodney system is like and it may be a good replacement for my current back up (Tapco thumps) as i can use it for extra bass and if the amp dies then i can just plug in the satellite outs.

I must say my RCF 310 tops are brilliant and a fhonn sub/satilite thing would be perfect - although i would like too see one before spending 2k.

The main issue at the moment however is my VCI as the mic input is rubbish which makes getting rid of my amp rack a problem (the whole reason for going active) as i need a seperate mixer for the mic (bad latency delays) :bang:

I have been toing with screwing one one pre wired in my large lighting flight case (that doubles as a stand).

[yourdj]

Well I bought an LD Dave system.

It turned up today and i took it out with me tonight (marquee or all things).
All I can say is it was probably at least 4 times better than I expected!

I started off with the sub and my other passive system (RCF) and slowly moved on to just the Dave and it held its own!

The tops are a bit high end which can be a bit harsh to my ears compared to the art310's but the sub is excellent for a 12inch. Can't really complain for a few hundred quid!

I can only imagine the new dave system is even better! Very pleased with it. So pleased infact i may by another Dave sub and sell all my passive kit! :)

http://www.ld-systems.com/files/_0000_lddave15.jpg

[Corabar Steve]

I aaume these are the foam fronted ones Toby?

Did the dual speaker pole come as part of the package?

[yourdj]

I aaume these are the foam fronted ones Toby?

Did the dual speaker pole come as part of the package?

Hi, bit delayed Steve but It is the one with the foam and grill (mk1).

Build quality is a bit rubbish as it is MDF but It works perfectly! I am more than four times impressed now as I am using it with my RCF's and have done several large venues and its been great!

I am doing as told and spreading the tops right out each side of the floor and centralizing the sub. I would not use them with the single dual mount thing as you will probably not get the spread of sound. the 10 inch RCF's are fine near to dance floor as they weigh 10 kg.

I am looking at getting another one of these (LD12) or an HK system or possibly Fohhn as they are better. At the moment i have the sub on my big case so if I have two I can incorporate them into a booth so the subs underneath and the case on top.

Just nice to have a system that could be used in a very large venue and also if one goes you immediately have another. Another option is a small amp for an active top for back up for people considering these systems. What ever you do do not go out with just that!


-