Allowing other entertainers to "patch" into your system!

[Dynamic Entertainment]

An inspired thread/poll...for once!

Anyway, I'm not talking about full bands, but more like other entertainers such as magicians, callers, acoustic artists and the like.

Do you allow them to patch their system, be it microphone, passive mixing desk, etc etc into your system?

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Before my whole drag queen drama (no pun intended) I was more than happy to.

However due to what turned out to be his/her faulty equipment it still was maded to look like my fault.

It has and always will remain down to my judgement whenever or not it will happen and Ive yet to refuse to do so however I can see myself rejecting someone else to patch in now.

[JTRS]

I've done it a few times with comedians and once with a magician, and it's always been where I have made the offer, the magician didn't have any PA system because he was originally planning to table hop and then decided to do an impromptu stage set, and the comedians all had their own PA's but one was a technical problem and the others I just offered because I was already set-up before they arrived (and I've got a soft spot for stand up comedians).

I'm not sure I'd allow it if I was told that someone would be using my system, or if they just assumed that they could patch in without asking before the event.

JTRS

[Booche]

I suppose it all depends on what they want to "patch" in i dont mind the likes of a mic,ipod,cd player etc as they dont tend to mess anything up and i still have control but when its the likes of full pa,numerous mics etc then i draw a line .

So i suppose it depends ;)

Cheers Dave :)

[Daryll]

I would , if.......................I knew what was being plugged in , ie a microphone , of a known make , yes no problem.
but I would have to be sure ( no , that`s not a joke :D )

Daryll

[Corabar Steve]

I hope you don't mind me adding the option that applies to my

[Dynamic Entertainment]

No worries Steve...i knew i would miss one or two answers off :)

[Tony Scott]

I have no issue with letting entertainers or bands link up with my PA.

I carry a 12 channel desk and a load of D.I. boxes around with me and have various mics, leads and effects that have come in very useful over the years.

I did a wedding last year and agreed in advance with the Ceilidh band that they could put all their instruments and mics through my desk, in return they have used me as their DJ for 3 gigs since and recommended me to several new clients so it was a wise move to be so accommodating. ;)

[Shaun]

Definite NO from me. The way my flightcase is setup it's impossible to get into the mixer outputs without first getting out the toolbox and removing my backup HD2500. I'm prepared to go to the hassle if I have a fault etc, but there's no way I'm dragging in the toolbox and going to all that trouble to let someone else hook into my system. If they're hired to provide a service I believe they should bring the proper tools to do the job just like we all have to.

[Corabar Steve]

No worries Steve...i knew i would miss one or two answers off :)
At least you didn't leave off the rest of your post unlike some of us :blush: :whistle:

[Excalibur]

I don't see an option that fits my circumstances accurately. I've never refused yet, but I wouldn't rule it out. Being given prior warning is obviously way preferable, but some of us live in the real world. :( :(

Some pushy git earning four times what I am, wandering in and assuming that I'm bound to let him use my gear, may easily be disavowed of that theory. ;)

A respectful fellow performer coming up and asking politely if I thought that the gig would not benefit from him bringing in his PA and stacking it between me and my adoring public, would be offered an input to my gear.

Do you see where I'm coming from? ;)

[funkymook]

I tend to say no. I don't have enough technical knowlege to get a good sound for someone else, and don't want to take the blame if their sound is awful. And then there's insurance and health and safety. Then what if they blow your speakers? I have been asked before and I say due to my insurance I'm not covered for any equipment other than my own.

[Excalibur]

I hope you don't mind me adding the option that applies to my


No worries Steve...i knew i would miss one or two answers off :)
Well add one for me mate: It all depends. I'm not saying yes, and I'm not saying no.

I have no issue with letting entertainers or bands link up with my PA.

I carry a 12 channel desk and a load of D.I. boxes around with me and have various mics, leads and effects that have come in very useful over the years.

I did a wedding last year and agreed in advance with the Ceilidh band that they could put all their instruments and mics through my desk, in return they have used me as their DJ for 3 gigs since and recommended me to several new clients so it was a wise move to be so accommodating. ;)
There's always a http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10172/smartass~0.gif (http://www.smileyvault.com/) , isn't there? :p What about us mere mortals? :confused: :D :D


Definite NO from me. The way my flightcase is setup it's impossible to get into the mixer outputs without first getting out the toolbox and removing my backup HD2500. I'm prepared to go to the hassle if I have a fault etc, but there's no way I'm dragging in the toolbox and going to all that trouble to let someone else hook into my system. If they're hired to provide a service I believe they should bring the proper tools to do the job just like we all have to.

Shaun, your logic is sound, but perhaps your planning is flawed? I understand why you build all your playout into one box, but since I use two, then I have sockets from my mixer channels on the back of box 1. One Mic and One line are a doddle. That usually suffices. If they want more, they've really got to give prior notification.

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, I simply try to avoid possible problems.

[Shaun]

Shaun, your logic is sound, but perhaps your planning is flawed? I understand why you build all your playout into one box, but since I use two, then I have sockets from my mixer channels on the back of box 1. One Mic and One line are a doddle. That usually suffices. If they want more, they've really got to give prior notification.

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, I simply try to avoid possible problems.

I don't agree. My planning is perfectly sound (excuse the pun) for the service I provide. I have a main playout and backup playout installed into the one box to suit the provision of service that I provide.

My setup was designed solely for the way I work and the service I provide. :)

Should they tell me in advance I can provide additional equipment that would be suited to their requirements, but at a price.

Doesn't sound flawed to me. :)

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Im in a similar boat to Shaun. My playout is fixed and not accessible...however with a bit of notice i can insert a FOH mixer between my mixer and speakers which affords extra inputs for them to use :)

[Excalibur]

I don't agree. My planning is perfectly sound (excuse the pun) for the service I provide. I have a main playout and backup playout installed into the one box to suit the provision of service that I provide.

My setup was designed solely for the way I work and the service I provide. :)

Should they tell me in advance I can provide additional equipment that would be suited to their requirements, but at a price.

Doesn't sound flawed to me. :)


Im in a similar boat to Shaun. My playout is fixed and not accessible...however with a bit of notice i can insert a FOH mixer between my mixer and speakers which affords extra inputs for them to use :)
As in the other thread where I've just said something similar to Steve, I can't fault your logic, or ethos. I can however say that you're not anticipating all possible problems, and taking all sensible steps to preclude them from becoming a hindrance to the smooth running of the event. ( Watch out for the origin of this one. I'll post it in a minute in supporters. )

[Shaun]

As in the other thread where I've just said something similar to Steve, I can't fault your logic, or ethos. I can however say that you're not anticipating all possible problems, and taking all sensible steps to preclude them from becoming a hindrance to the smooth running of the event. ( Watch out for the origin of this one. I'll post it in a minute in supporters. )

...ah but you are talking about problems from sources outside the provision of the service I'm booked to provide. I've already anticipated and have backup and solutions for any situations that I may encounter with my service. Should a problem be caused with regards to the smooth running of the event by another service provider not having the tools to carry out their job......then the problem is theirs, I'm not sure how that is anything to do with me. I'll be able to carry on just fine if they can't. :) :d


I do get what you're saying though, I just don't agree with it..lol.

[Corabar Steve]

Thing is, they're usually paid more than most discos & have less time on the job (performance wise). Why should they waltz in & use our kit? If they want to use something of mine, will I get a cut of their take? I don't think so.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Thing is, they're usually paid more than most discos & have less time on the job (performance wise). Why should they waltz in & use our kit?

Didn't Crazy K waltz in and use your kit? :sj:

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Didn't Crazy K waltz in and use your kit? :sj:

Nah Crazy K barn danced in and used it :D

[Shaun]

Nah Crazy K barn danced in and used it :D

Taxi!

[Excalibur]

...ah but you are talking about problems from sources outside the provision of the service I'm booked to provide. I've already anticipated and have backup and solutions for any situations that I may encounter with my service. Should a problem be caused with regards to the smooth running of the event by another service provider not having the tools to carry out their service......then the problem is theirs. I'll be able to carry on providing my serivce just fine if they can't. :)

And you Sir, are purposely, purposefully, and intentionally sidestepping the crux of my argument. We're not in any way discussing your gear or service provision, we're talking about you knowing that it's highly probable that some overpaid, self important, untalented, jumped up, ignorant pillock of an "Entertainer" is highly likely to wander in safe in the knowledge that the professional, accomodating, helpful, underpaid, philanthropic DJ has already seen this one coming, and provided for all his more reasonable and immediate needs.

[Corabar Steve]

Didn't Crazy K waltz in and use your kit? :sj:No


Nah Crazy K barn danced in and used it :D
Yes

I refer you both to my added option in the poll

[Excalibur]

Thing is, they're usually paid more than most discos & have less time on the job (performance wise). Why should they waltz in & use our kit? If they want to use something of mine, will I get a cut of their take? I don't think so.


No


Yes

I refer you both to my added option in the poll

And I refer you Sir to the fact that my preferred option still hasn't appeared yet. Please. Pretty please?


Thing is, they're usually paid more than most discos & have less time on the job (performance wise). Why should they waltz in & use our kit? If they want to use something of mine, will I get a cut of their take? I don't think so.

OK, banged to rights. Can't argue with a keystroke of this.:whiteflag:

[simon1969]

Yes for a price and in advance!!!

[Corabar Entertainment]

Just to add: we shouldn't have any nasty surprises on the night. We ask the client if there's any entertainment and ask for their contact details. We then contact the other entertainers so that we can have a 'chat' before the night to try and make sure that every thing is smooth on the night.

[Corabar Steve]

And I refer you Sir to the fact that my preferred option still hasn't appeared yet. Please. Pretty please?
Is option 5 good enough?

[Excalibur]

Just to add: we shouldn't have any nasty surprises on the night. We ask the client if there's any entertainment and ask for their contact details. We then contact the other entertainers so that we can have a 'chat' before the night to try and make sure that every thing is smooth on the night.
And then Steve says " It's my ball, and you can't play with it? " :whistle: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Is option 5 good enough?
My humble apologies, good Sir. Absolutely perfect, I'm off to cast my vote now.

Oh look. I'm in a minority of one. Hey ho.

[Shaun]

we're talking about you knowing that it's highly probable that some overpaid, self important, untalented, jumped up, ignorant pillock of an "Entertainer" is highly likely to wander in safe in the knowledge that the professional, accomodating, helpful, underpaid, philanthropic DJ has already seen this one coming, and provided for all his more reasonable and immediate needs.

Yep, I thought I understood you first time. :d

My answer remains firmly the same: No, I don't, won't and never will offer the facilities to provide a service to an "overpaid, self important, untalented, jumped up, ignorant pillock of an "Entertainer" that is highly likely to wander in safe in the knowledge that the professional, accomodating, helpful, underpaid, philanthropic DJ has already seen this one coming, and will provide for all his more reasonable and immediate needs". :d The exception being if I'm told in advance and the client or additional entertainer decides to cross my palm with silver to allow me to provide sufficiant additional equipment to facilitate their needs. :)

[Corabar Steve]

Just to add: we shouldn't have any nasty surprises on the night. We ask the client if there's any entertainment and ask for their contact details. We then contact the other entertainers so that we can have a 'chat' before the night to try and make sure that every thing is smooth on the night.
True, there is usually a "work around" for most situations.

[Corabar Steve]

And then Steve says " It's my ball, and you can't play with it? " :whistle: :D :D :D :D :D :D :DTo put another spin on it, if they expect you to sort the sound out while they're doing their slot?

[Excalibur]

Is option 5 good enough?


Yep, I thought I understood you first time. :d

My answer remains firmly the same: No, I don't, won't and never will offer the facilities to provide a service to an "overpaid, self important, untalented, jumped up, ignorant pillock of an "Entertainer" that is highly likely to wander in safe in the knowledge that the professional, accomodating, helpful, underpaid, philanthropic DJ has already seen this one coming, and will provide for all his more reasonable and immediate needs". :d The exception being if I'm told in advance and the client or additional entertainer decides to cross my palm with silver to allow me to provide sufficiant additional equipment to facilitate their needs. :)
Aha! Suddenly, we're both using Hymns Ancient and Modern., ;) ;) ;) ;) :D :D :D :D :D :D


To put another spin on it, if they expect you to sort the sound out while they're doing their slot?
To be uncharacteristically serious, I'm talking symbiosis,not imposition. Mature as you may be Steve, ( and I'm still firmly convinced you've got a picture in the attic) I'm from an era when all performers involved in a gig routinely worked together to facilitate the easiest, most obvious, and most efficacious solution to the problem. Guiess it's an age thing.

[Shaun]

To put another spin on it, if they expect you to sort the sound out while they're doing their slot?

That's a good point. Are we meant to monitor the sound for feedback etc whilst they're doing their slot? Should a driver or tweeter pop when they're plugged into my system who is going to pay for it? I have nothing in my T&C's to protect me in such a situation....should I also amend my T&C's to cover situations arising from other entertainers? Nah, no thanks. There's all sorts of unknown scenarious that could arise from someone being hooked into your system.


Anyway, I'm off to get a dictionary as Peter is making my cranium hurt with all those fancy words. :d :

[Excalibur]

That's a good point. Are we meant to monitor the sound for feedback etc whilst they're doing their slot? Should a driver or tweeter pop when they're plugged into my system who is going to pay for it? I have nothing in my T&C's to protect me in such a situation....should I also amend my T&C's to cover situations arising from other entertainers? Nah, no thanks. There's all sorts of unknown scenarious that could arise from someone being hooked into your system.


Anyway, I'm off to get a dictionary as Peter is making my cranium hurt with all those fancy words. :d :
That is a mere bagatelle, compared to the display of your upper torso, which assailed our senses recently!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: That made more than my cranium hurt. :( :( :(

[Shaun]

That is a mere bagatelle, compared to the display of your upper torso, which assailed our senses recently!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: That made more than my cranium hurt. :( :( :(

:boy_hug: :kiss:

[Excalibur]

:boy_hug: :kiss:

You do, and I'll stick one on you.:eek: ;) ;) :D :D

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I have recently had the shoe on the other foot where a full 6 piece band, complete with sound engineer, offered me a patch into their system. The trade-off so to speak was my lighting on tripods for them to use (they had LED par cans to light themselves, but nothing for the dancefloor). It was nice and easy on my part as I just set up the Ultimax without overhead to the left of them then ran long XLRs into their stagesnake and back to their engineer. Sounded blooming lovely all night long.

As has been said..the benifits of getting a phone number before hand and a pleasant conversation.

(Incidentally the SE was well impressed the high output of the Denon, although i did switch the attenuater on to make his life easier ;)

[Excalibur]

I have recently had the shoe on the other foot where a full 6 piece band, complete with sound engineer, offered me a patch into their system. The trade-off so to speak was my lighting on tripods for them to use (they had LED par cans to light themselves, but nothing for the dancefloor). It was nice and easy on my part as I just set up the Ultimax without overhead to the left of them then ran long XLRs into their stagesnake and back to their engineer. Sounded blooming lovely all night long.

As has been said..the benifits of getting a phone number before hand and a pleasant conversation.

(Incidentally the SE was well impressed the high output of the Denon, although i did switch the attenuater on to make his life easier ;)
You mean when all the lights on his desk went red? :confused: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D After over a year, I'm still struggling to get all the levels where I want them. :o :o

[Dynamic Entertainment]

You mean when all the lights on his desk went red? :confused: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D After over a year, I'm still struggling to get all the levels where I want them. :o :o

I gave the guy warning before firing up and gave him a perfect 0db on my output and let him work from there. Thats when we realise that his chanel slider had hardly moved, so i hit the attenuator ;)

[Corabar Steve]

You do, and I'll stick one on you.:eek: ;) ;) :D :D
2 kisses then? :sj:

[Excalibur]

2 kisses then? :sj:

Well he did buy me a :beer1: .

[DazzyD]

I don't see an option that fits my circumstances accurately. I've never refused yet, but I wouldn't rule it out. Being given prior warning is obviously way preferable, but some of us live in the real world. :( :(

Some pushy git earning four times what I am, wandering in and assuming that I'm bound to let him use my gear, may easily be disavowed of that theory. ;)

A respectful fellow performer coming up and asking politely if I thought that the gig would not benefit from him bringing in his PA and stacking it between me and my adoring public, would be offered an input to my gear.

Do you see where I'm coming from? ;)


Just to add: we shouldn't have any nasty surprises on the night. We ask the client if there's any entertainment and ask for their contact details. We then contact the other entertainers so that we can have a 'chat' before the night to try and make sure that every thing is smooth on the night.


This is my take on things. I will endeavour to contact other entertainers prior to the gig to discuss the plan for the night, if we have any equipment sharing needs, etc. Planning is everything as I, too, don't like nasty surprises!

[Shaun]

Well he did buy me a :beer1: .

Shhhhhhhh. Can't have you dispelling the myth that all us Scots are tight.

[Excalibur]

Shhhhhhhh. Can't have you dispelling the myth that all us Scots are tight.

I think that nicely illustrates the point that a Yorkshireman is simply a Scot, but with all the generosity removed. ;)

[Corabar Steve]

I seem to recall both of you buying a round

[Excalibur]

I seem to recall both of you buying a round

And I seem to recall you arriving on mine at the Steakhouse, and being told you were out of time. :p :D :D :D :D

Edit: In all seriousness, I know I owe quite a few folk a pint after BPM. I settled a couple of debts, and created a few others. Hey ho.

[CRAZY K]

Didn't Crazy K waltz in and use your kit? :sj:

If only it was that simple;)

[Excalibur]

Right then, and you all know how much I hate doing this, but I've got to make a serious post. Let's try this analogy.

In the day job, I was employed to help build a grain dryer. There was a specialist who was theoretically nominally in charge. He was a :muppet: . He sent his staff member to fasten down some steel frames to concrete. He took out an expensive drill which was not the most effective tool for the job, but would eventually have done it. If it had been working properly. It wasn't.

Now I would have been perfectly justified in sitting back laughing my socks off at their antics, but instead I went into my van, and brought out a battle scarred, budget, heavy duty weapon, and handed it to him. After he had drilled the holes in no time flat, he said" Good heavens, we should have one of these".

Why did I help? He was a Professional, more skilled than me ( allegedly. ;) We didn't see much evidence of it :( :( ) on a higher wage, and supposed to be running the show. I could easily have watched him struggle, and no-one could have criticised me.

But the point is children, IT WOULD HAVE HAMPERED THE JOB. I had the skill and tools to ensure it was completed quickly and efficiently. I did just that, not to help the other guy, but to help the person employing me. , and that's the thing.

If I am out with the disco gear, and am asked to help out a performer, then I'm highly likely to do so. I may mutter a lot under my breath, or even audibly, but I ( probably ) won't readily torpedo the event just because I can. If the Client remembers that I was Mr Fixit, and coped with all problems, then perhaps he'll book me again. Yes, I realise it may be making a rod for my own back, but on balance, I'll risk it. And when it all goes mammaries skywards, who does everybody always look to? The DJ, that's right.

I'm not criticising anyone, just stating my case. You watch, next week I'll refuse to help somebody, and have to eat humble pie. :D :D

[Twinspin]

Im not sure that bands get more than what we do in terms of money though all the time.

When a band does a live gig then the money they earn is shared out between each member. Say if you book a 4 piece band and they charge you £1000. Every band member will get their share of that so at the very most each will walk away with £250.00 each.

But sometimes it wouldnt be that much what about agents fees and other staff just something i was thinking about.

[sleah]

a grain dryer.
Good grief! bet you can't say that after a skin full, I can't say it sober:D

I find it depends on the people and circumstances. I will do like Excalibur if the people involved are decent humans and helping out will make everything rosie again:)
However, if they are arrogant :Censored: s or think it's my duty to put myself out, then :Censored: ocks to them!
If it's something I'm asked beforehand, and I'm able to help, I may consider an extra charge depending on what's required and who's asking....

[Shaun]

Just had a phone call 5 minutes ago. It was from a singer that is hired to perform alongside me at tomorrows wedding. This is the first I'd heard that there would be a singer too.

I knew what was coming. He told me that he would need to hook into my PA. It'll come as no shock to many of you that I very politely told him this won't be possible as the inputs of my mixer aren't accessible. He then started moaning that he would have to bring a PA with him, and how much of a hassle this was going to be for him. *my heart bleeds*

Note to other hired entertainers: Hooking in to my PA isn't an option. Load up your van like we all have to do.

Rant over.

[CRAZY K]

Just had a phone call 5 minutes ago. It was from a singer that is hired to perform alongside me at tomorrows wedding. This is the first I'd heard that there would be a singer too.



Highly unprofessional contacting you last minute.

If I am asking a DJ if I cant patch iin to their system its done immediately the booking is taken --whether thats acceptable is up to them--but time wise you dont do it the night before.

Lets hope the singing is better than the organisation.

Not too clever by the client either-- :(

[Excalibur]

. He then started moaning that he would have to bring a PA with him, and how much of a hassle this was going to be for him. *my heart bleeds*


Shaun, I applaud your stance, I admire your attitude, and view you as a role model in this matter. Well done that man.

[CRAZY K]

Highly unprofessional contacting you last minute.

If I am asking a DJ if I cant patch iin to their system its done immediately the booking is taken --whether thats acceptable is up to them--but time wise you dont do it the night before.

Lets hope the singing is better than the organisation.

Not too clever by the client either-- :(

Make that CAN patch in ---been clearing up my HD today and its getting late:rolleyes:

[Shaun]

It was the presumption of the call that irritated me slightly.

[Excalibur]

It was the presumption of the call that irritated me slightly.

Agreed. That doesn't sit well with me. :mad:


Let us hope that having been apprised of his failure to comply with the three week notice requirement, and the concomitant fee, he doesn't retaliate by making you disappear behind his PA stack! :eek: ;) ;)

Were I you, I'd be sure to act in accordance with the DJ Handbook: Arrive early. Take the high ground.

[Pink Elephant]

It may have been said before (but can't be bothered going over 6 pages! :p ) I presume he is still charging the same to the client if he uses his own PA or not, so why do they never offer to 'share' their fee to use our PA??

[BossmanKaraokeDisco]

Ok just voted and its a definate No from me. Had a Robbie Williams tribute assume that he could plug into my PA, walked in with cd's and Mic.

I pointed out that I did not have a CD player and when I asked why he had not got his own PA, turns out he had and just looking for the easier option as he had his missus with him, still getting paid the same though.

I suppose if I had the Disco/Karaoke set up out then I would let an entertainer plug a mic in but it would depend on his attitude.:D

[Corabar Steve]

For the last few years (way since this thread was started), I've been working a venue that I regularly share our PA with other acts (as a means of controlling noise levels). However, they do not use our mixer (unless by prior arrangement), but rather, plug theirs into our rack. We can swap between sources with the twist of a knob. I've never had to connect more than 2, although I can connect 3 from the front. Ours is permanently plugged in to ch4 & I can add another 4 by taking the back off the case.

1913019131

(Yes, I am aware the fan is upside-down)

You'd be amazed how many of them want to bring their own PA when they hear about the sound restrictions. (nope, not going to happen). They also don't plug anything in unless we've seen copies of PAT & PLI. My bag of tricks often comes into play too, the amount of them that have mixers with no XLR out on their mixers & require some form of adaptor.

[Excalibur]

For the last few years (way since this thread was started), I've been working a venue that I regularly share our PA with other acts (as a means of controlling noise levels).
Yeah, but you're now " poacher turned gamekeeper " with your automatic volume controls, sound deadening curtains, and box of adaptors. :p



However, they do not use our mixer (unless by prior arrangement), but rather, plug theirs into our rack. .

To quote Finbarr Saunders; nice rack. :) I actually think I basically understand it. :daft:

[Corabar Steve]

To quote Finbarr Saunders; nice rack. :) I actually think I basically understand it. :daft:

It's pretty easy. The 3 input channels output to the Canford passive switch, which in turn has a single out to the AVC, which goes to the speakers.

The fan is there to stop the Mixer PSU from melting (again)

The Drawers contain leads to connect mixers to the rack, mics, mini jack / Android / Apple to RCA (for punters phones etc, when they aren't using a DJ for background) & DI Boxes.

The door at the bottom is for access to the speaker leads (they run out under it when in use) which are hard-wired to the AVC.

[Zog]

I once allowed the use of a microphone with a long lead at a Working Men's Club. The user dropped the mic. onto a hard floor and broke it. It failed to work after that. The club had a whip round and I was presented with a ton of loose coins on a table to compensate for the damage. (Not even converted into convenient notes). I am not keen to share my gear with others.


Zog