My venue has sent an indemnity form - advice?

[yourdj]

Hi got this through from a regular venue I provide services for.

is this normal?

The way I see it if someone breaks their leg jumping up and down to madness I can get sued? I also hold all liability for noise levels and will have to act as defendant in court if a case was brought up? Or does this mean if I play a track with swearing its my fault (which it is).

Or if my equipment breaks I will have to pay damages if there is no disco and the wedding is ruined.
The list goes on as it is very vague.

I am not signing anything which puts my business at risk. I have only dj'd there personally three times this year anyway.


-

[Corabar Entertainment]

That is so pathetically vague and general it's ridiculous!

I presume the venue is your client? Do you have a master contract/individual contracts for events already in place?

[MBK]

Also the last statement saye that it will be your responsibility for the music Does that inclunde the licence or music and dancing?
Have to agree that It is rather vauge could be that they are asking for PLI insurance.

I would double check

[sleah]

*shakes head*

The venue is liable for any member of the public it admits. If a punter sues the venue for something the disco has done, the venue then sues the disco.
It's up to the venue to ensure the entertainer has their own PLI in place, or don't let them in.
That's how most council premises work. Simples:)
There's nothing to stop a punter sueing the entertainer directly of course.....

If the venue ain't prepared to accept liability in the first instance, i.e. if a punter gets hurt, then they shouldn't allow 3rd party entertainers in.
Pillocks!:D
Some people have nooooo idea:bang:

[yourdj]

Do you have a master contract/individual contracts for events already in place?

there is no contract as we are a prefered supplier. I did not want to get tied into anything.
I could use this as ballast to do a contract with new terms as they are creaming allot of of what they charge the client.
It is something like 30% and then they add the VAT!
i can also stipulate that all dj bookings go through me (which they are anyway).

They could then turn around and tell me where to go which is always the problem. We have supplied entertainment for a year without an issue however.


at It is rather vauge could be that they are asking for PLI insurance.

They have our PLI and are now asking for updated PAT for all performers.



If the venue ain't prepared to accept liability in the first instance, i.e. if a punter gets hurt, then they shouldn't allow 3rd party entertainers in.
Pillocks!:D
Some people have nooooo idea:bang:

So is this what this is. i think they are protecting themselves from noise issues too.

At the end of the day I do not play there that often and the other Dj's are self employed.
Could I get them to sign a from stating that so it would not come back to me. :confused:

[sleah]

So is this what this is. i think they are protecting themselves from noise issues too.

Sounds like it, and potentially failing miserably:daft:

When the council get complaints, they won't give a :Censored: which individual was making the noise in the venue, they will just tell the venue to sort it or shut them down.

When did you last hear of a venue being immune from the council closing them down or imposing conditions because they said it was the DJ's fault? :Laugh:

[yourdj]

Sounds like it, and potentially failing miserably:daft:

When the council get complaints, they won't give a :Censored: which individual was making the noise in the venue, they will just tell the venue to sort it or shut them down.

When did you last hear of a venue being immune from the council closing them down or imposing conditions because they said it was the DJ's fault? :Laugh:

They did have a noise limiter which kept going off when the crowd cheered.
It was the ball ones that give no warning. they were basically being cheap skates.

There are houses very near and they have disabled the limiter which i assume is a bit dodgy.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Surely if someone bumps into your gear whilst going mad dancing and they hurt themselves then YOU are covered with your public liability. They should have a PPL license (or whatever it is) for the music and the noise issuse should be monitored by the venue, hence the sound limiter?

At the end of the day, the sound limiter has been put there for a reason (maybe by the council?), because, as you've explained...it's a residential area. If the levels are set correctly (and it's a pain in the backside for us), then in reality, there shouldn't be a problem should there? If you get a rowdy crowd then it's up to the hotel staff to calm them down.

[yourdj]

Someone fell over the other day at a wedding and their ankle was VERY swollen. Got stretched out.
This is the "music designated area" and I could get sues if i sign this and it happens again.

the dance floor has loads of holes in it, she had no heels but could sue.

i think this is why I am signing this tbh.

Its in a rural area and there are usually people who complain if you fart within 20m of their house. :D

[Shakermaker Promotions]

If they fell over on the dancefloor due to it being rubbish and not maintained then it's not your fault whatsoever.

Blimey!!!! The next thing they'll be saying is "Can you just play slow music all evening so that no'one is in danger of hurting themselves".

It sounds pathetic mate but by the sounds of this venue, well who knows!!?

[yourdj]

If they fell over on the dancefloor due to it being rubbish and not maintained then it's not your fault whatsoever.

Blimey!!!! The next thing they'll be saying is "Can you just play slow music all evening so that no'one is in danger of hurting themselves".

It sounds pathetic mate but by the sounds of this venue, well who knows!!?


Funny you say that this is what a friend (who also DJ's from time to time at the venue) has just emailed me:

Personally, I would refuse to sign it and so would any other DJ or entertainer, I'd imagine. It's the very thin end of the wedge, so far as I can see and in effect nullifies any attemmpts to entertain, if our actions are going to driven by "I hope someone doesn't fall over, hurt themselves etc etc" whilst being entertained.

So, we don't play rock and roll, the twist, or any other type of music in case someone hurts themslves? Ridiculous.
People are there of their own volition and know what the risks are. We don't force anyone to dance, do we?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

There you go!
As has been said a few times before by myself and also others on here with reference to venues...you could lose out if you refuse to sign the form and they may look elsewhere and get someone else that will sign it.

If I were in your position and they are happy with your work, I would arrange a meeting with them to go over your concerns. I wouldn't just say "I'm not signing it" and then again, I wouldn't just think "Oh, I better sign it incase I lose the residency / work etc"...In other words, have a good think about it all before you do anything.

[paulg]

maybe just run it past your PLI provider?

[funkymook]

I wonder how it would stand up in court if they ever actually invoked it?

Could be so vague as to be meaningless so would make no odds if you did sign it.

Obviously you'd need proper legal advice before you assumed that.

[DazzyD]

I would have thought that the venue couldn't idemnify their legal responsibilities with regards to safety so I'd be thinking that this document wouldn't make any difference whether you signed it or not.

Of course, I could be wrong!!

[yourdj]

Obviously you'd need proper legal advice before you assumed that.

i would do but I am not wasting a gigs worth of money on this rubbish.

[DJ James Lake]

I would just send them another copy of your pli insurance and keep sending it every time they ask for that form they sent to be signed

[Shakermaker Promotions]

there is no contract as we are a prefered supplier. I did not want to get tied into anything.

I just had to go back to the beginning of the thread to take a look at the full details as I skipped over them when I first read the post.

Toby, you have a decision to make mate.
If you have personally only DJ'd there 3 times during the year then is it worth the bother?
If you have only DJ'd there 3 times during the year through choice because you have other people working there for you and are taking a cut then again, is it worth the bother?

I personally don't think it is worth the bother if they are putting this on you. They are simply covering their butts so it begs the question, why all of a sudden? Why haven't they done this before?

They sound like they are being stricter than strict. It's not the Savoy at the end of the day (is it?). Most (decent) venues will ask for PLI and PAT and maybe (can't remember what it's called off hand....risk assessment?), your plans if something goes wrong.

You don't have a contract with them, you've made that clear. So, maybe that's something you can talk to them about after Christmas? Work out a contract that suits the both of you IF you want to continue doing stuff there.
You say you are the "preferred supplier" so does that mean everything goes through you? Do the other guys get the work from you or do you co-ordinate it all and are more or less the middle man? Do they get contacted directly by the venue? If you are the middle man and everything goes through you and you pass on the work...well, it's down to you obviously to sort this out and then notify your DJ's of the new working conditions and I think that'll be hard.

If your DJ's get contacted directly then it's up to them what they do.

I'd be very tempted to walk away from this one.

[DJDC]

Offer a solution.

Ask them if every guest who attends an event that your performing at on their behalf will sign an indemnity covering you? i.e. Any person entering the function room and reacting by any physical means to any music or instruction by the entertainment does so at their own risk and indemnifies the entertainer from all such risks. Or you could place 'warning signs' around the function room and make regular announcments to the guest regarding their health & Safety and how they have to conduct themselves.

Alternatively refuse to allow any guest into the function room until they have undertaken a full 'site induction, and have signed to confirm they understood their H&S responsibilities. In addition if anyone wants to do anything other then the usual, video, take photo's uindertake a first dance, cut the cake, make speeches additional training or toolbox talks will be requiredand you will want to see sight of any appropiate risk assessements, method statements, and understand any safe method of working they plan to implement.

I also wonder how this would work with the venues own staff, what if a guest dragged the glass collector onto the floor for a dance they would then become your responsibility, or a geust bumped and knocked a member of their staff over? I wonder how you would interpret that under Management of Health and Safety at work act? Potentially they could be illegally trying to get out of their responsibilities under H&S law.

I'd say heres my PLI, PAT, manufacturers instructions for the equipment I use (in accordance with said instructions), and what ever is not covered within these can be recorded within any risk assessment, method statements or Safe methods of working. These are my responsibilities and this will demonstrate I have undertaken reasonable measures to ensure all risks are managed to the lowest level practicable.

[yourdj]

maybe that's something you can talk to them about after Christmas? Work out a contract that suits the both of you IF you want to continue doing stuff there.

I have. Both my DJ's have refused to sign it.

I am going to make another contract and present that to them.
Basically the same thing but within the confines and around any equipment only
(ie speaker stands, lighting as that is the only thing which I am presenting that has any form of risk attached to it.

IF ANYONE CAN HELP ME WITH THE WORDING THAT WOULD BE EXCELLENT. :)

There are also other issue relating to the rates they are charging, so I am going to have a meeting next week and negotiate and year long contract for exclusive rights to the venue and a better rate of pay too.

We have provided an excellent service and deserve to be treated a bit better.


Offer a solution.

Ask them if every guest who attends an event that your performing at on their behalf will sign an indemnity covering you? i.e. Any person entering the function room and reacting by any physical means to any music or instruction by the entertainment does so at their own risk and indemnifies the entertainer from all such risks. Or you could place 'warning signs' around the function room and make regular announcments to the guest regarding their health & Safety and how they have to conduct themselves.

Alternatively refuse to allow any guest into the function room until they have undertaken a full 'site induction, and have signed to confirm they understood their H&S responsibilities. In addition if anyone wants to do anything other then the usual, video, take photo's uindertake a first dance, cut the cake, make speeches additional training or toolbox talks will be requiredand you will want to see sight of any appropiate risk assessements, method statements, and understand any safe method of working they plan to implement.

I also wonder how this would work with the venues own staff, what if a guest dragged the glass collector onto the floor for a dance they would then become your responsibility, or a geust bumped and knocked a member of their staff over? I wonder how you would interpret that under Management of Health and Safety at work act? Potentially they could be illegally trying to get out of their responsibilities under H&S law.

I'd say heres my PLI, PAT, manufacturers instructions for the equipment I use (in accordance with said instructions), and what ever is not covered within these can be recorded within any risk assessment, method statements or Safe methods of working. These are my responsibilities and this will demonstrate I have undertaken reasonable measures to ensure all risks are managed to the lowest level practicable.

Thats pretty funny. :)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Toby, you may well be providing an excellent service and by the sounds of it, you DEFINITELY deserve to be treated better than you currently are but come on mate....venues make their own rules up and if you or your DJ's don't agree with or sign their forms then you'll be out.

100% positive feedback, follow on work, repeat bookings (same thing), bending over backwards to help out and make things easier....all stuff that I did with one particular venue and what did they do?

Looked for the cheaper option even though I was not expensive whatsoever, infact £100.00 cheaper than I go out privately and the price didn't change for 4 years. I've learnt that being loyal and doing all of the above just goes out of the window mate.

[CRAZY K]

100% positive feedback, follow on work, repeat bookings (same thing), bending over backwards to help out and make things easier....all stuff that I did with one particular venue and what did they do?

Looked for the cheaper option even though I was not expensive whatsoever, infact £100.00 cheaper than I go out privately and the price didn't change for 4 years. I've learnt that being loyal and doing all of the above just goes out of the window mate.

Wise words.

There is very little loyalty in the Entertainment business ( ask a few ripped off 60s rock stars:eek: )

The indemnity is way out of order and you HAVE NO LEGAL NEED TO SIGN IT because you have the usual suspects--( hopefully )

PLI
PAT
RISK ASSESSMENT
PRO DUB

Employers Liability insurance if you "employ" other DJs under a Contract of Service --you may need to check that.

You can either tell them you have all necessary Insurances, Licences and Risk Assessments to comply with the law of this Land and your not signing it because you have nothing to fear OR run the risk of being booted out.

Incidentally the PLI Insurers would probably have a HEART ATTACK if they knew you are accepting Liability in advance and you may invalidate your own Policy by doing so.

Remember that old saying --if you have an accident never admit Liability --thats why--because the Insurers NEVER admit liability unless its an extreme case--they just make compensation payments WITHOUT ADMISSION OF LIABILITY.

I guess you could use that as a reason--;)

Even if under the Unfair Contract Terms Act you could claim it was unfair to impose this condition on you--you are left between a rock and a hard place trying to prove it--should I change that to your highly expensive Lawyer might have that problem as you dont know anything about that apparently .:eek:

[yourdj]

Wise words.

There is very little loyalty in the Entertainment business ( ask a few ripped off 60s rock stars:eek: )

The indemnity is way out of order and you HAVE NO LEGAL NEED TO SIGN IT because you have the usual suspects--( hopefully )

PLI
PAT
RISK ASSESSMENT
PRO DUB

Employers Liability insurance if you "employ" other DJs under a Contract of Service --you may need to check that.

You can either tell them you have all necessary Insurances, Licences and Risk Assessments to comply with the law of this Land and your not signing it because you have nothing to fear OR run the risk of being booted out.

Incidentally the PLI Insurers would probably have a HEART ATTACK if they knew you are accepting Liability in advance and you may invalidate your own Policy by doing so.

Remember that old saying --if you have an accident never admit Liability --thats why--because the Insurers NEVER admit liability unless its an extreme case--they just make compensation payments WITHOUT ADMISSION OF LIABILITY.

I guess you could use that as a reason--;)

Even if under the Unfair Contract Terms Act you could claim it was unfair to impose this condition on you--you are left between a rock and a hard place trying to prove it--should I change that to your highly expensive Lawyer might have that problem as you dont know anything about that apparently .:eek:

Is this thing worth the paper its written on? If not then I will sign it and leave it at that.

If it not they can get stuffed. I will offer a risk assessment and leave it at that. i have 12 million PLI and PAT so they have nothing to complain about.

[TonyB]

It is what is known in the insurance industry as a "Hold Harmless Agreement" and they are pretty common. Signing it without your insurers permission could well invalidate your PLI as a usual condition of PLI insurance is that it will not indemnify you for claims that arise due to signing an agreement/contract if liability would have not arisen if you had not signed the document.

Send it to your insurers and ask them if it is okay for you sign it. If they agree then they accept any repercussions of you signing it. Make sure you get a reply from your insurers/broker/agent in writing. If they say don't sign it, they will probably give reasons that you can then send to the venue

[CRAZY K]

It is what is known in the insurance industry as a "Hold Harmless Agreement" and they are pretty common. Signing it without your insurers permission could well invalidate your PLI as a usual condition of PLI insurance is that it will not indemnify you for claims that arise due to signing an agreement/contract if liability would have not arisen if you had not signed the document.

Send it to your insurers and ask them if it is okay for you sign it. If they agree then they accept any repercussions of you signing it. Make sure you get a reply from your insurers/broker/agent in writing. If they say don't sign it, they will probably give reasons that you can then send to the venue

I think we know what the answer will be to that Tony;)

Its effectively trying to make Toby liable for everything imaginable even though he has not been at fault. i.e.negligent

As you point out he could sign, then be liable for everything BUT have no Insurance to cover it--do you own a house Toby--they might be after that if anything goes wrong.:(

The more we discuss this the more it looks like its a bad idea.

[yourdj]

I have justchatted to a DJ at venue I am at and he said it seems OK?

but said to add this to cover my ass if someone dances the YMCA and smashes a bottle in someones face.
These days people sue for nothing so I am probably not going to risk it!

You are right my house would be the first point of call for an insurer.

DOES NOT AFFECT THE STAITURY RIGHTS OF THE
CUSTOMER TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY ACTIONS RELATING TO THE ENTETAINMENT BEING PROVIDED.

I will also contact my PLI provider. Im opting out of this and the venue as foe other reasons they are not in my good books:

She said on the phone today amongst other heated discussions relating to the percentage they are
taking (60%) which is completely out of order.

"I am sure I can find another DJ to sign it"

That says it all really. I want a better venue who knows how to treat thier entertainment or private bookings so its just me and the client.

anyone wants a new venue down south you are welcome to it!!

:( :( :( :( :( :(

[funkymook]

I have justchatted to a DJ at venue I am at and he said it seems OK?

but said to add this to cover my ass if someone dances the YMCA and smashes a bottle in someones face.
These days people sue for nothing so I am probably not going to risk it!

You are right my house would be the first point of call for an insurer.

DOES NOT AFFECT THE STAITURY RIGHTS OF THE
CUSTOMER TO PARTICIPATE IN ANY ACTIONS RELATING TO THE ENTETAINMENT BEING PROVIDED.

I will also contact my PLI provider. Im opting out of this and the venue as foe other reasons they are not in my good books:

She said on the phone today amongst other heated discussions relating to the percentage they are
taking (60%) which is completely out of order.

"I am sure I can find another DJ to sign it"

That says it all really. I want a better venue who knows how to treat thier entertainment or private bookings so its just me and the client.

anyone wants a new venue down south you are welcome to it!!

:( :( :( :( :( :(

Taking advice of a non legally trained (my assumption) DJ is hardly a definitive answer to what this form actually makes you liable for - and his addition regarding statuary rights seems as vague as the original you were asked to sign. But all that aside the venue seems more trouble than they are worth and I would also walk away. I'd have asked for written details of what their indemnity form means just to make them do a bit of work and highlight the fact they don't actually know themselves before telling them you weren't going to work there!

[CRAZY K]

I have justchatted to a DJ at venue I am at and he said it seems OK?

:( :( :( :( :( :(

Toby, why would you take advice from a Lawyer about DJ matters?

Also why would you take advice from a DJ on Legal Matters?

The answer in both cases is--you wouldnt if you had any sense.:daft:

Glad to hear they will be getting another MUG to sign their Indemnity.

In my opinion you will be delighted to know that probably as they go lower and lower down the scale to find some:daft: DJ to sign this form they will come across people who are "men of straw" i.e have no assets whatsoever so in the event of a major claim the customer will not get paid because the DJ probably will have no EFFECTIVE PLI cover and no assets.

THEN probably the claim will go on the HOTEL:beer1: :beer1: :beer1:

They always find someone to sue.;)

[Corabar Entertainment]

Quite apart from the fact that I believe you mean 'statutory' rights, I would seriously love to know what this other DJ and you think that 'disclaimer' says / does. :confused: :confused: .........















Just when was the act of parliament passed stating that customers have a legal right to participate in entertainment?..... because that's all it says! It doesn't say anything whatsoever about protecting you in any way!!!

[Vectis]

:agree:

Blind leading the blind here methinks :doh:

Toby - either pay for professional advice (it's tax deductible) or walk away.

[yourdj]

Just when was the act of parliament passed stating that customers have a legal right to participate in entertainment?..... because that's all it says! It doesn't say anything whatsoever about protecting you in any way!!!

Do you have any more information on this.

I have a meeting monday but have made the desision to walk away purely due to the difficult wedding planner.
I appreciate the work supplied on tap but would rather separate events with individual clients.

I have just spent all day (12-1) in the venue next door acting as DJ/master of ceremony and I am now in the bar with the guests (I have a free room - not driving)
.
She was very professional, nice and said thank you. What a difference. :)

I am a good DJ and deserve better :D

[CRAZY K]

Do you have any more information on this.

I have a meeting monday but have made the desision to walk away purely due to the difficult wedding planner.
I appreciate the work supplied on tap but would rather separate events with individual clients.

I have just spent all day (12-1) in the venue next door acting as DJ/master of ceremony and I am now in the bar with the guests (I have a free room - not driving)
.
She was very professional, nice and said thank you. What a difference. :)

I am a good DJ and deserve better :D

This is worse than the blind leading the blind.

Whatever that is;)

Just drop the venue -- you know it makes sense Rodney

[Corabar Entertainment]

Do you have any more information on this. I really don't understand the question, Toby.... more information on what? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Excalibur]

I really don't understand the question, Toby.... more information on what? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Well you're doing way better than I am then, cos I haven't understood the last eighteen posts at all!!:daft: :daft:

[yourdj]

The act of parliament. Sounds like you know a bit about it.

"Just when was the act of parliament passed stating that customers have a legal right to participate in entertainment"

Does that mean they have a legal right to sue you as well.

[Corabar Entertainment]

:bang:

:whoosh:

Toby - re-read what I put. It was a question (and a sarcastic one at that)....

... and here's another one (well, actually, it's more or less the same one written differently): Do you seriously think that there is a law in place saying that people can enjoy entertainment? :confused: :daft: :confused:


Seriously, that 'disclaimer' that you posted up, is NOT a disclaimer in any shape or form, and is, in fact, complete, total, and utter nonsense obviously written by someone who just decided to throw a few words together that they thought sounded official legalese.

I am at a loss to even guess (let alone understand) what you and this other DJ think it says / does!!!

[Excalibur]

Well you're doing way better than I am then, cos I haven't understood the last eighteen posts at all!!:daft: :daft:



I am at a loss to even guess (let alone understand) what you and this other DJ think it says / does!!!
Phew!. And I thought it was just me. :daft: :daft:

[yourdj]

what you and this other DJ think it says / does!!!

Thats the point of this post. I do not know what it means so I am consolidating opinions.
I only said he said that I am not taking his onion as gospal as he knows nothing about Law.

I have also sent it to Equity and my PLI for the definitive once over. :)

[funkymook]

Thats the point of this post. I do not know what it means so I am consolidating opinions.
I only said he said that I am not taking his onion as gospal as he knows nothing about Law.

I have also sent it to Equity and my PLI for the definitive once over. :)

Haven't you asked the venue for clarification? If not, why not? That's the first thing I'd do.

[yourdj]

Haven't you asked the venue for clarification? If not, why not? That's the first thing I'd do.

Meeting Mon. I had a ding dong with the difficult wedding planner but one of the other managers has contacted me to go over it and change the wording to suit my needs which is good as they would have found someone else if they did not value my services. :)

Funny how things have worked out - I have gained an extra two four star venues in as many days so I could not really care if they agree or not. :p

I appreciate the business and its a good venue so as long as this works out I am staying.

Bit like hollyoaks this. :)

[Excalibur]

: Do you seriously think that there is a law in place saying that people can enjoy entertainment?

I can just see it in court.
" M'lud, the case for the prosecution is that Excalibur failed to entertain me, which is a flagrant breach of my human rights. " :eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D

[Daryll]

I can just see it in court.
" M'lud, the case for the prosecution is that Excalibur failed to entertain me, which is a flagrant breach of my human rights. " :eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D

They do have a point :D :D

:sofa:

[yourdj]

You do not know these days, thats why I asked.
People have sued (and won) for much less.

[Corabar Entertainment]

You do not know these days, thats why I asked.
People have sued (and won) for much less.
Really? Could you provide a link to the case reports to support that comment, Toby?

In any event, the right to enjoy any entertainment provided, is not the same as having a right to have enjoyable entertainment provided!

[soundtracker]

I just went into the office to check the date! No........not April Fool's Day!

[Excalibur]

Really? Could you provide a link to the case reports to support that comment, Toby?

In any event, the right to enjoy any entertainment provided, is not the same as having a right to have enjoyable entertainment provided!

Phew! I now have a getout clause. :D :D :D :D :D