Distance Selling Regulations

[Dynamic Entertainment]

This topic has just cropped up in the Supporters section, and think it warrants a thread for all to see...

Anyway, the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.... where do we stand with them?

Two scenarios:

1. A private client books you, and pays their Non-refunadable Booking Fee and signs their section of the contract, dated 1st January 2011, you recieve it on the 3rd, sign it as the 3rd January and post her copy back. On the 5th they decide to cancel. Now under the regs (I think I'm right here...clarify anyone?), she is entitled to cancel and claim back the NRBF due to the 7 day "cooling off" period.

So, for my next question....when does the cooling off period begin? Is it the 1st, when they signed the contract, or is it the 3rd when you also signed it and effectivly completed the contract?

Scenario 2:

Exactly the same, although it was a hotel booking you direct to do their NYE...am i right in thyinking that the regs dont apply here because its business-to-business and therefore the cooling off period doesnt exist?

Cheers

Steve

:beer1:

[Mark Wild]

7 or 14 day cooling off period depending on your T&C's I think, good question, but it's from the date they sign it I'm pretty sure of that.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

7 or 14 day cooling off period depending on your T&C's I think, good question, but it's from the date they sign it I'm pretty sure of that.

Ahhh....but thats just it Mark...your T&Cs are basically out of the window for the cooling off period specified in the regs...basically your NRBF is a RBF....

[CRAZY K]

This topic has just cropped up in the Supporters section, and think it warrants a thread for all to see...

Anyway, the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.... where do we stand with them?

Two scenarios:

1. A private client books you, and pays their Non-refunadable Booking Fee and signs their section of the contract, dated 1st January 2011, you recieve it on the 3rd, sign it as the 3rd January and post her copy back. On the 5th they decide to cancel. Now under the regs (I think I'm right here...clarify anyone?), she is entitled to cancel and claim back the NRBF due to the 7 day "cooling off" period.

So, for my next question....when does the cooling off period begin? Is it the 1st, when they signed the contract, or is it the 3rd when you also signed it and effectivly completed the contract?

Scenario 2:

Exactly the same, although it was a hotel booking you direct to do their NYE...am i right in thyinking that the regs dont apply here because its business-to-business and therefore the cooling off period doesnt exist?

Cheers

Steve

:beer1:

Thanks for raising this--it was my current problem that triggered this.:eek:

Business to Business does not apply e,g, Hotels BUT what do we think of organisations like Golf Club Committee Secretaries and the like who are of course involved with a business --:confused:

My Contract was with a Golf Club and arranged by someone who works there.

I do know one Agency who say that the 7 days starts the day they send out a Confirmation of booking and request for a deposit--they unusually
dont ask for a signed Contract back--just tell the client they have a booking.

Its obviously a bit unusual for the signing of the Contract and payment of the deposit/booking fee to be 10 days before they cancel--which is what happened to me--but that was because they took forever to send back documents despite reminders from us and assurances that they DEFINITELY wanted our service.

You clearly cant say in your T and Cs that they override the DSRs.

However my belief is the date on which they state in writing by email that they wish to book is the start of the cooling off--not when Contracts are signed or deposits paid--of course if its over the phone you would have to confirm yourself by email or letter which are grey areas in the event of a dispute.

As in --- I never said I wanted to go ahead:daft:

Most times we get clients emails confirming the booking.

I am going to introduce from today ( for non Business to Business Clients) a clause in my covering email enclosing Contract and request for NRBF to the effect that under DSR they have 7 days to cancel completely without cost AND cancellations after that date are permitted once we have the signed Contract and NRBF SUBJECT TO OUR STANDARD TERMS AND CONDITIONS.---hopefully establishing a mark in the sand.

Unless anyone thinks that wont work---:confused:

Probably I need to speak to Trading Standards --as if i havent got loads to do here:mad:

[DJ Jules]

I am going to introduce from today ( for non Business to Business Clients) a clause in my covering email enclosing Contract and request for NRBF to the effect that under DSR they have 7 days to cancel completely without cost AND cancellations after that date are permitted once we have the signed Contract and NRBF SUBJECT TO OUR STANDARD TERMS AND CONDITIONS.---hopefully establishing a mark in the sand.

Unless anyone thinks that wont work---:confused:

Probably I need to speak to Trading Standards --as if i havent got loads to do here:mad:

That'd strengthen your position, but I'm not 100% sure if it'd stand up in a Court. Bear in mind that EMails have the same power in court as a written letter, so an email of intent could be considered as a entering into a contract of sale (unless your T's and C's explicitly state otherwise that something else - i.e. a signed contract and NRBF - are required before you consider the sale complete).

Julian

[CRAZY K]

That'd strengthen your position, but I'm not 100% sure if it'd stand up in a Court. Bear in mind that EMails have the same power in court as a written letter, so an email of intent could be considered as a entering into a contract of sale (unless your T's and C's explicitly state otherwise that something else - i.e. a signed contract and NRBF - are required before you consider the sale complete).Julian

Hi Julian, as it happens thats what the current Tand Cs say to protect us against people not paying up on time so we can just write and say sorry you havent paid up--you have 24 hours to settle or we will take another booking.

However its against us if we have a payment and then a cancellation under 7 days:eek: which is very unusual but has happened--the reason being we were strung along by these people on the pretext of the person with the cheque book is on holiday--but the event date was looming ever closer and the sale of tickets going badly--hence we end up getting paid a NRBF about 21 days before the event and cancelled 10 days later.

Im wondering if this was deliberate.

Perhaps Trading Standards will be of help to me;)

[DJ Jules]

Hi Julian, as it happens thats what the current Tand Cs say to protect us against people not paying up on time so we can just write and say sorry you havent paid up--you have 24 hours to settle or we will take another booking.

I've been keeping up with the story :D It's a bit of a balance between protecting yourselves from people who have no intent of booking (to allow you to feret out the time wasters and get bookings from people who mean business) and the people who try and hide behind the DSR's. I'd expect you to encounter people doing the latter a lot less than the former.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you word your T's and C's so that a legal contract of sale is entered at a very early stage (i.e. based on pure Telephone or Email confirmation) and then add terms relating to payment of NRBF within x days of initiation of the contract, then you're protecting yourself from the cooling off period in the DSR's (by creating a "contract of sale" as early as possible), but giving you the right to cancel the contract on the basis that they've breached the terms, if you don't receive a NRBF and signed booking form within x days. I.e, you can continue you as you are, but the cooling off period in this case would have started from the initial verbal confirmation from the client (i.e. the point that the "Contract" was entered into). You might want to run that past a lawyer first though ;)


Im wondering if this was deliberate

I expect it was, I imagine it was touch and go for a while, and then she got the go ahead from someone based on meagre ticket sales, and then someone else might have pointed out that the event was going to be a money-bleeding mess and pulled the plug.

Julian

[CRAZY K]

I've been keeping up with the story :D It's a bit of a balance between protecting yourselves from people who have no intent of booking (to allow you to feret out the time wasters and get bookings from people who mean business) and the people who try and hide behind the DSR's. I'd expect you to encounter people doing the latter a lot less than the former.

One thing to bear in mind is that if you word your T's and C's so that a legal contract of sale is entered at a very early stage (i.e. based on pure Telephone or Email confirmation) and then add terms relating to payment of NRBF within x days of initiation of the contract, then you're protecting yourself from the cooling off period in the DSR's (by creating a "contract of sale" as early as possible), but giving you the right to cancel the contract on the basis that they've breached the terms, if you don't receive a NRBF and signed booking form within x days. I.e, you can continue you as you are, but the cooling off period in this case would have started from the initial verbal confirmation from the client (i.e. the point that the "Contract" was entered into). You might want to run that past a lawyer first though ;)



I expect it was, I imagine it was touch and go for a while, and then she got the go ahead from someone based on meagre ticket sales, and then someone else might have pointed out that the event was going to be a money-bleeding mess and pulled the plug.

Julian

OH DEAR OH DEAR OH DEAR


Just spoken to Consumer direct.

Contracts used by ourselves are EXEMPT from the selling regulations--see Section 6.2 because they are for Leisure Services on a specific day.

So end of thread im afraid.

This has made my Day!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Corabar Entertainment]

Just for those who wish to read for themselves, the full Act can be found at:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/contents/made

The following is a full list of the headings for each section:-


1.Title, commencement and extent
2.Revocation
3.Interpretation
4.Contracts to which these Regulations apply
5.Excepted contracts
6.Contracts to which only part of these Regulations apply
7.Information required prior to the conclusion of the contract
8.Written and additional information
9.Services performed through the use of a means of distance communication
10.Right to cancel
11.Cancellation period in the case of contracts for the supply of goods
12.Cancellation period in the case of contracts for the supply of services
13.Exceptions to the right to cancel
14.Recovery of sums paid by or on behalf of the consumer on cancellation, and return of security
15.Automatic cancellation of a related credit agreement
16.Repayment of credit and interest after cancellation of a related credit agreement
17.Restoration of goods by consumer after cancellation
18.Goods given in part-exchange
19.Performance
20.Effect of non-performance on related credit agreement
21.Payment by card
22.Amendments to the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971
23.Amendments to the Unsolicited Goods and Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1976
24.Inertia Selling
25.No contracting-out
26.Consideration of complaints
27.Injunctions to secure compliance with these Regulations
28.Notification of undertakings and orders to the Director
29.Publication, information and advice

and this is the full wording of the section that Alan is referring to:-


Contracts to which only part of these Regulations apply

6.—(1) Regulations 7 to 20 shall not apply to a contract which is a “timeshare agreement” within the meaning of the Timeshare Act 1992(1) and to which that Act applies.

(2) Regulations 7 to 19(1) shall not apply to—

(a)contracts for the supply of food, beverages or other goods intended for everyday consumption supplied to the consumer’s residence or to his workplace by regular roundsmen; or

(b)contracts for the provision of accommodation, transport, catering or leisure services, where the supplier undertakes, when the contract is concluded, to provide these services on a specific date or within a specific period.

(3) Regulations 19(2) to (8) and 20 do not apply to a contract for a “package” within the meaning of the Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992(2) which is sold or offered for sale in the territory of the Member States.

[CRAZY K]

Just for those who wish to read for themselves, the full Act can be found at:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2334/contents/made

The following is a full list of the headings for each section:-



and this is the full wording of the section that Alan is referring to:-

Thank you for taking the time to do this Angela, I have been busy with my wife drafting a letter to the customer explaining the above and asking for the money( or else)

Its strange the lengths people will go to in an effort to avoid paying up :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Corabar Entertainment]

You're welcome, Alan.

Just sorry I didn't have the time to look at it properly in the first place... feeling a little bit more human today at least. :)

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Well....thanks Guys...thats cleared that up :)

[Alex]

guys (mods/admin) .... is it possible to make this thread a sticky one? This information could be extremely helpful to lots of other people :)

I for one wasn't aware our contracts are exempt! My booking method will change slightly now because of this :) To make it easier for me, anyway! LOL

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Good idea Alex, I missed this thread first time round for some reason!

[Excalibur]

This topic has just cropped up in the Supporters section, and think it warrants a thread for all to see...

Anyway, the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.... where do we stand with them?

Two scenarios:

1. A private client books you, and pays their Non-refunadable Booking Fee and signs their section of the contract, dated 1st January 2011, you recieve it on the 3rd, sign it as the 3rd January and post her copy back. Cheers

Steve

:beer1:

Steve,I may be missing something here, but why not speed the process up thus:

You sign two copies, send 'em to the customer, who signs both, and sends one back. Simples.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Steve,I may be missing something here, but why not speed the process up thus:

You sign two copies, send 'em to the customer, who signs both, and sends one back. Simples.

Its what I do :)

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Steve,I may be missing something here, but why not speed the process up thus:

You sign two copies, send 'em to the customer, who signs both, and sends one back. Simples.

Yeah, all well and good in an ideal world... and this is what I used to do.

However...i had a couple of occasions where a B&G changed the details...and as I had already signed the damn thing ;)

I also know of one guy (local to me) who had signed them and sent them out...only to find they that they decided they didnt want the booking. They had gone cheaper...

To cut a long story short, the client had kept his paperwork, and then after the date of the event, a letter comes through from a solicitor stating that he was a no show.... They had signed and backdated the contract...complete with his signature...thus forming a completed and binding contract...and he was (in the eyes of the law) a no-show. he folded because of it....

So, now im the last to sign it...

[Corabar Entertainment]

To cut a long story short, the client had kept his paperwork, and then after the date of the event, a letter comes through from a solicitor stating that he was a no show.... They had signed and backdated the contract...complete with his signature...thus forming a completed and binding contract...and he was (in the eyes of the law) a no-show. he folded because of it....Exactly!

NEVER give the other side a signed contract before you've got theirs! It's a very dangerous thing to do.

[Excalibur]

Exactly!

NEVER give the other side a signed contract before you've got theirs! It's a very dangerous thing to do.

Oops. I shall consider my knuckles well and truly rapped. :o :o :o :o