Is it possible to overdrive Mackie 450s?

[MikeW]

Hi Guys
Sorry if this is a dumb question.
I was doing a wedding last night in a farly large room. There were possibly about 160 guests, although the room can hold more.

I was running my Denon MC6000 through my Mackie 450 V1s. Some of the guests were asking for the sound to be a bit louder (why don't they just dance closer to the speakers:) ) When I increased the volume, some of the tracks I was playing were sounding slightly distorted. I was just wondering if possibly I may have been overdriving the speakers.
Would a bass bin have helped in last nights situation ie distributing the sound more?
Thanks in advance

[hammy]

Are you using mp3 or cd`s??. and virtual dj if mp3

There is a new thread somewhere on the forums where a few of us have found this with the mc6000, I found mine doing it (mp3) and i turned down the gain in vdj to about 7 oclock and now seems to be ok, I`m sure others will jump in soon.

found it http://www.forum.mobilediscodirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34520&highlight=mc6000 and it was started by you Mike

[MikeW]

Hi Hammy

I know I started a thread last week about this:) Just trying to look at it from a different angle.

[deltic]

mike,160 people in a large room wanting it loud and you only have a pair of mackies,even with the gain staging perfect,i think maybe you are expecting too much out of them.
however i think you would gain a bit more with a decent bass bin,by adding a bin it is not going to make it louder by a great amount ,but you will get a fuller sound and fill the room more.

[MikeW]

mike,160 people in a large room wanting it loud and you only have a pair of mackies,even with the gain staging perfect,i think maybe you are expecting too much out of them.
however i think you would gain a bit more with a decent bass bin,by adding a bin it is not going to make it louder by a great amount ,but you will get a fuller sound and fill the room more.

Thanks for that Andy. I am probably not saying this in the most technical terms:) but a bass bin would take the pressure off the tops slightly, if you know what I mean?

[Alchemy]

I used my Mackie 450 V2's and a single dB Sub 15 at last Thursdays wedding, plenty loud enough in a 25m x 14m venue with 100 people, I really think you needed a sub. When you say you had distortion did you go past 12 o'clock on the volume?

[MikeW]

I used my Mackie 450 V2's and a single dB Sub 15 at last Thursdays wedding, plenty loud enough in a 20m x 14m venue with 100 people, I really think you needed a sub. When you say you had distortion did you go past 12 o'clock on the volume?

On the Mackie's? No. On the MC6000? No. I will be seriously looking at my sound system over the next couple of months. I am looking to go down the QSC route, but will obviously need a bass bin as well. Thanks for your comments.

[mattydinx]

How are things currently setup?

My advice would be play some music through the MC6000 so that the master output meter is reading a little over 0dB. Then turn the gain on the Mackies up until you just start to see clipping occur - Back the volume off a notch or two and bring the master volume down on the MC6000.

That way you know that you're not going to be clipping or overloading your speakers providing you keep things at 0dB on the MC6000.

If it's not loud enough after that, then you need to look at adding a sub to reduce some of the strain on the tops.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Db sub with mine for 100+ guests for me too. I think the mackies sound better when used with a sub anyway.

To be fair when the denon and vdj I have both the master and the amps set at 50% and usually have the gains between 9 and 12 o'clock so never come close to driving them too hard.

[CRAZY K]

mike,160 people in a large room wanting it loud and you only have a pair of mackies,even with the gain staging perfect,i think maybe you are expecting too much out of them.
however i think you would gain a bit more with a decent bass bin,by adding a bin it is not going to make it louder by a great amount ,but you will get a fuller sound and fill the room more.

Agreed.

By a VERY strange coincidence although I am not one for knocking products ---last night I was on the receiving end of a very unpleasant experience working with a DJ who had a pair of these.

I was working the Rodeo Bull with my son and the DJ was set up on a small stage.

Early doors it was ok when he was playing routine sound level Country Music--and making announcements for the Rodeo Bull.

It was an Irish Pub in County Cricklewood with high ceilings and a very long function room/ bar.

After we finished the Rodeo Bull the Disco started properly on Disco Music and the volume went up to deafening.

The sound was in my opinion not great--very trebly and not a lot of bass--and starting to distort--so yes get some bass bins for larger venues--

I imagine Excalibur will have something to say;)

[Digital Jack]

Did you have the eq button on the rear of the Mackie's depressed ?

[Excalibur]

I imagine Excalibur will have something to say;)

The problem is finding something constructive to say. ;) :D ( Only joking. :D )

Now bear in mind, there are many variables in this scenario. As alluded to, VDJ has a gain control, and my limited experience of similar systems leads me to believe that this should be as low as possible.

My one outing with an MC6000 showed me that its volume controls take a bit of getting used to for best results, whereas I've found the X500 much more forgiving.

The Mackies are 12" plastic cabs, and this fact alone means they're not likely to be a bass heavy cab, never mind their reputation as being a little "Bright". Also, the cardinal rule, never turn them up past twelve o'clock.


With this outfit, I'd be inclined to say never go out without at least one 15"/18" sub. I'd also like to have a means of adjusting the crossover point between subs and tops.

My default rig nowadays is in fact a pair of 15" subs and 12" plastic tops, fed by a crossover and two amps.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I was in a fairly large room last night with 120 guests and I was up on a stage. I used the Mackies on their own on stands. Mixer volume was up to maximum as were the sliders but I wasn't using any gain (only when there were slightly quieter tracks) and the mixer never went in the red. Plenty of volume there too and out front it was fine.

I was explaining the whole bass thing to my other half in the week as I tried to justify why I will be buying new bins in the very near future. For the moment though, next time I go out with the Mackies I will put them on poles and use them with the bins I have at the moment which are passive just to fill out the sound a bit more. One thing I NEVER do is go past 12 o'clock on the Mackies.

[Happy Jack]

How are things currently setup?

My advice would be play some music through the MC6000 so that the master output meter is reading a little over 0dB. Then turn the gain on the Mackies up until you just start to see clipping occur - Back the volume off a notch or two and bring the master volume down on the MC6000.

That way you know that you're not going to be clipping or overloading your speakers providing you keep things at 0dB on the MC6000.

If it's not loud enough after that, then you need to look at adding a sub to reduce some of the strain on the tops.
This. Pretty much word for word. I'd only add that, without being able to run it all up with pink noise / a swept sine, use heavily-compressed dance music or metal. Anything off Metallica's 'Death Magnetic' is a great example of source material with a particularly low crest factor.

0dB on the MC6000 equates to +4dBu which corresponds with the input sensitivity on the 450's at this nominal '12 o clock' position. Standard pro audio line level, and is the very reason this 'cardinal rule' exists. If you follow the advice above then you'll find this will have to be observed.

[MikeW]

Did you have the eq button on the rear of the Mackie's depressed ?

No I didn't have the eq button depressed. Would that have helped?

[MikeW]

Thanks very much everyone for your comments. As has been said, it all may take a bit of adjusting to find the best settings.

As I said previously, I am looking at changing my sound set up, and have a couple of options to go for. I will start a new thread later.

Thanks again.

Mike.

[Alchemy]

Did you have the eq button on the rear of the Mackie's depressed ?

By EQ do you mean the Contour button? This shouldn't introduce distortion as it only boosts the very low, and very high frequencies (I can't really detect any significant difference on mine but my ears were shot to pieces by Black Sabbath and Deep Purple way back then :D )

[Digital Jack]

By EQ do you mean the Contour button? This shouldn't introduce distortion as it only boosts the very low, and very high frequencies (I can't really detect any significant difference on mine but my ears were shot to pieces by Black Sabbath and Deep Purple way back then :D )

Yup , the contour button - but it does the same job as a loudness button like you may find on a personal stereo (how old am I) or a car stereo.
I was asking because I though it may pertain to your dilemma.

As it wasn't activated it looks like it has nothing to do with your problem....

[Shakermaker Promotions]

You could also do what I have been doing this morning....

A while back I bought (no dodgy comments please) a pair of Peavey Pro Subs. I haven't felt the need to use them really as most of the gigs I have done, I have either used the Mackies on their own or the JBL's on their own. I used to use them a lot with the JBL's to give them a bit more of a punch as the JBL's can sound quite harsh top end.

I set up for earlier for this evening's wedding out of town and decided to take the Mackies and also the Peaveys with the Cerwin Vega amp. The Mackies are connected via the main balanced outputs and the amp and subs are connected via the booth output. It's the first time I have used this collaboration and when I sounchecked, the difference was really noticeable (yes, even with the Peaveys!).

I don't really need all of this for tonight but thought it would be good to test them in a live situation. I put the Mackies on first of all on their own and then gradually bought in the subs and the sound really filled up nicely. Now I can't wait until I get the money to get a couple of decent subs (undecided on Active or Passive as yet).

So, these will do ok for me until then. I know you may think it's a waste of money but it's just a suggestion. These would do for a while and they are cheap. Maybe even get a couple of second hand ones? It really did make a difference to me.

[MikeW]

You could also do what I have been doing this morning....

A while back I bought (no dodgy comments please) a pair of Peavey Pro Subs. I haven't felt the need to use them really as most of the gigs I have done, I have either used the Mackies on their own or the JBL's on their own. I used to use them a lot with the JBL's to give them a bit more of a punch as the JBL's can sound quite harsh top end.

I set up for earlier for this evening's wedding out of town and decided to take the Mackies and also the Peaveys with the Cerwin Vega amp. The Mackies are connected via the main balanced outputs and the amp and subs are connected via the booth output. It's the first time I have used this collaboration and when I sounchecked, the difference was really noticeable (yes, even with the Peaveys!).

I don't really need all of this for tonight but thought it would be good to test them in a live situation. I put the Mackies on first of all on their own and then gradually bought in the subs and the sound really filled up nicely. Now I can't wait until I get the money to get a couple of decent subs (undecided on Active or Passive as yet).

So, these will do ok for me until then. I know you may think it's a waste of money but it's just a suggestion. These would do for a while and they are cheap. Maybe even get a couple of second hand ones? It really did make a difference to me.

Thanks for that, interesting thought.
How would this work, if I were purchasing a pair of K10s, running as normal, but running one or two Mackies via the booth?
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if you don't ask:)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I'm doing it the easy way and just plugging in etc. I have a seperate crossover but I am not using it to split signals so in reality what I am doing is getting a full range signal going into the subs aswell. On the back of them are 2 inputs. One is Hi-Pass and the other is Input. I am using the input. Yes, it's probably not the ideal way to do stuff but it works for me and I like it.

I have 3 sets of JBL's. If I wanted more volume or a better despersion of sound, I could use 2 sets of JBL's and have them in 4 corners of the room...too much hassle.

I don't know the K10's at all but guess that they are actives?

All you'd be doing in reality (I think?) is doubling up on the whole sound because you'd be going from the mixer outputs (master and booth) to 2 sets of speakers. If the K10's had EQ on the back of them then you could cut the Mid and Top and just have the bass but that's not the ideal solution. As has been said, the bass will fill out the sound more and it's amazing how different it can sound.

The Car Stereo thing has been mentioned and I used a similar example the other day when explaining to the missus about it all.

I have my laptop connected to some Advent table top speakers and Advent sub. On the sub there is a seperate dial to control the amount of bass coming out. I played her a dance track on high volume with no bass at all and then gradually bought in the bass. I wasn't touching the volume at all (just the bass) yet she thought I had turned it up. I hope that makes sense and I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Oops....I better get off, I'm supposed to have left by now!

[Excalibur]

Thanks for that, interesting thought.
How would this work, if I were purchasing a pair of K10s, running as normal, but running one or two Mackies via the booth?
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but if you don't ask:)

Bear in mind I've not heard this combination, but logic suggests this would not be a good rig. Neither cab is noted for bass, and you'd probably end up in the same place as before.

Adding subs with some form of crossover takes the strain off the tops. The K10's are designed to run into them, and down into subs. ( I don't know why, but apparently it works. )

With the Mackies, you'd either need passive subs/amp with a crossover either in the subs, or an active one preferably. With active subs you should get them built in. ( But not always. Some don't have this feature. )

[MikeW]

Bear in mind I've not heard this combination, but logic suggests this would not be a good rig. Neither cab is noted for bass, and you'd probably end up in the same place as before.

Adding subs with some form of crossover takes the strain off the tops. The K10's are designed to run into them, and down into subs. ( I don't know why, but apparently it works. )

With the Mackies, you'd either need passive subs/amp with a crossover either in the subs, or an active one preferably. With active subs you should get them built in. ( But not always. Some don't have this feature. )

Thanks for your reply Peter. I didn't think it would would work that well. Just wanted to ask anyway.

[Excalibur]

Thanks for your reply Peter. I didn't think it would would work that well. Just wanted to ask anyway.

I'm only making an educated guess, but I'd be surprised if it sounded lovely. Subs of some description with either cab gets my vote.

As always though, listen before buying. ;)

[MikeW]

I'm only making an educated guess, but I'd be surprised if it sounded lovely. Subs of some description with either cab gets my vote.

As always though, listen before buying. ;)

If all goes to plan, I am looking to hire a sub for a wedding I am booked for in the next couple of weeks.