Music too loud! Another B&G sue for money...

[DiscoMagic]

On the way to work this morning, listening to LBC (a London Talk Radio Station), it was brought to air news that a Bride and Groom was sueing their entertainment providers because the music was too loud!

I didn't get to listen to the whole story because I had to start work but it prompted the Google Search function to start working away for me - results are...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050556/Bride-groom-sue-opera-trio-disastrous-performance-left-guests-fingers-ears.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/nov/06/soprano-bella-wedding

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8834131/Wedding-opera-singers-made-guests-physically-sick.html

The three stories could be viewed as a little conflicting, but in my mind there are several things that are fundementally wrong (on both sides!)...

I thought I would throw it out to the forum for discussion and your points of view.

[yourdj]

On the way to work this morning, listening to LBC (a London Talk Radio Station), it was brought to air news that a Bride and Groom was sueing their entertainment providers because the music was too loud!

I didn't get to listen to the whole story because I had to start work but it prompted the Google Search function to start working away for me - results are...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050556/Bride-groom-sue-opera-trio-disastrous-performance-left-guests-fingers-ears.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/nov/06/soprano-bella-wedding

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8834131/Wedding-opera-singers-made-guests-physically-sick.html

The three stories could be viewed as a little conflicting, but in my mind there are several things that are fundementally wrong (on both sides!)...

I thought I would throw it out to the forum for discussion and your points of view.

Well my knowlege of much older functions is that all you have to do is turn the music on and they start complaining.
With opera in a small hall/funtion room you cannot control the volume as it has to be loud so yes it will be loud as compared to an amitheatre :p

Look at Abraham licoln ( Dr Volkhardt Freitag, a music professor (whos ears are going to be sensitive - mine are now just from Djing).
The average age is about 70 (the age of the couple):

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/18/article-2050556-0E6D1A7800000578-394_634x406.jpg

It may have been an over ambiguous PA operator but classical music is loud in small confinements.

"staff at the venue had indicated you were a difficult customer. He suggested you would not have been happy had he sent you "Pavarotti himself"


I cant believe the settled out of court :eek:

[Corabar Entertainment]

Good God, Toby! How insulting can you be? :eek:

It would appear that their gripe was with the sound man, as even the venue stated that, due to the acoustics in the venue, amplification isn't usually required for this sort of thing. (The clients actually stated that the singers had good voices.)

It also stated that it was a two-room type affair, but they couldn't (didn't) put speakers in the other area, so it sounds like they did have it loud so as to be heard in the other area - and even turned it back up when a guest turned it down. Now I know he probably saw red when a guest messed with the kit, but with people leaving the room, sticking fingers in their ears, and turning it down, don't you think he might have thought about turning it down? Although, why they didn't just ask him to turn it down is a mystery!

In addition, having read all three articles, it sounds like the Agents didn't handle the complaint very well, and came across as rather rude. Even the venue stated that they wouldn't use them in the future.

Finally, the clients were only looking for a partial refund, plus costs and an apology, so that seems pretty fair in the circumstances!

[Kernow]

Although volume can often be a contentious issue in the Mobile Disco environment, this case is about live performers so makes one wonder at it's relevance in this forum :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Corabar Entertainment]

I think it's relevance is on the back of the thread the other day, and wedding entertainment being sued.

[funkymook]

Although volume can often be a contentious issue in the Mobile Disco environment, this case is about live performers so makes one wonder at it's relevance in this forum :confused: :confused: :confused:

We have members who offer live entertainment alongside their DJ'ing, and most of us have worked with live acts - so quite a few will have valid opinions and experiences on the subject.

And also relevant following the recent spate of clients complaints that have been posted - it's another angle that could be used to try and get money back from any of us, so interesting to see how the court dealt with the issue.

[Larry B Entertainment]

Although volume can often be a contentious issue in the Mobile Disco environment, this case is about live performers so makes one wonder at it's relevance in this forum :confused: :confused: :confused:

Lee for one does singing sets as well as Djing, theres a few more that I cant remember :o

[hammy]

Is it now worth our while to get some sort of disclaimer signed from the client at the end of the event, Asking if they enjoyed it and were there any problems?????, How to word it as well.

[CRAZY K]

We have members who offer live entertainment alongside their DJ'ing, and most of us have worked with live acts - so quite a few will have valid opinions and experiences on the subject.

And also relevant following the recent spate of clients complaints that have been posted - it's another angle that could be used to try and get money back from any of us, so interesting to see how the court dealt with the issue.

Daily Mail say £1500 and some other small costs.

By my calculation thats 60 per cent.

No claim for the whole event which was no doubt very expensive-:daft:

OI HAD ME WEDDING RUINED style.;)

Interesting one, its true SOME older people do suffer from loud music which Toby suggests-- as I can confirm from a particularly difficult gig in the Summer which I wont bore you with---unless someone wants to start a new thread:D :D :D :D

Amplification for an event of this type seems RIDICULOUS.

Surely Opera Singers dont normally have it do they?

Having done a Wedding for a Professional PA Sound Engineer in the infamous Inflatable Blow up Church :daft: I can confirm he was a sound maniac.:eek:

[yourdj]

It also stated that it was a two-room type affair, but they couldn't (didn't) put speakers in the other area,

i am only playing devils advocate

however:

I can bet that the man in the photo was sitting right in front of the pa. How many times as a DJ has someone come up and complained about the volume level and they are sitting slap bang next speaker. It does not happen to me now as i purposefully move older folk to the other side of the room - obviously in a nice manner and its involved in the preplanning.



Good God, Toby! How insulting can you be? :eek:

It would appear that their gripe was with the sound man, as even the venue stated that, due to the acoustics in the venue, amplification isn't usually required for this sort of thing. (The clients actually stated that the singers had good voices.)


Lord knows why they would book a sound man and why the singers paid them compensation as it was not their fault if that is the case.
I personally think they are pain in the bum clients and the papers are being sympathetic to their needs as thats what the reader want to hear.


SOME older people do suffer from loud music which Toby suggests-- as I can confirm from a particularly difficult gig in the Summer which I wont bore you with---unless someone wants to start a new thread:D :D :D :D
:

I have become very sensitive to all sorts of sound over the last year. When the Iron Maiden warm up act
started I could not stay in the same room and instead of demanding a refund they gave me some ear plugs :D sorted.

When i am an old man I will bring ear plugs and enjoy the show rather than moan all the time.
i generally bring a pair to every party and gig I go to now so i will be in good practice when the time comes.

I will probably be deaf by then anyway with the music i listen to :D

[Corabar Entertainment]

Lord knows... why the singers paid them compensation as it was not their fault if that is the case. They didn't!!!

The AGENCY booked the artist and sound man, and the client took the AGENCY to court, and the AGENCY made the refund.

[Shaun]

I have become very sensitive to all sorts of sound over the last year. When the Iron Maiden warm up act
started I could not stay in the same room and instead of demanding a refund they gave me some ear plugs :D sorted.


I didn't Figure you for a Heavy Metal fan. Nana Mouskouri yes, Heavy Metal, no. :ph34r:

[funkymook]

I didn't Figure you for as a Heavy Metal fan. Nana Mouskouri yes, Heavy Metal, no. :ph34r:

One gig does not a fan make!

[CRAZY K]

They didn't!!!

The AGENCY booked the artist and sound man, and the client took the AGENCY to court, and the AGENCY made the refund.

I bet the the Agency billed the performers ;)

[Jonny Boy]

Lee for one does singing sets as well as Djing, theres a few more that I cant remember :o

;-) Glad to see I've made an impact here, then. :-/ ;-)


I've faced the sound-level issue before, especially with older guests (Toby's right that they DO sit on top of the PA and then moan... or trying and have a conversation at the front of the dance-floor.....)

...and while it's not difficult to turn it down, you then may have monitoring issues. The singers would need to hear the music to get their cues and intonation - so some level of output would be needed over the hum of conversations etc - but as they perform these kind of shows "in the round" (using the main PA as their monitor) - you'd think that the performers themselves would appreciate the levels were too loud [if they were], and signal their sound-guy.

But that's partly me playing devil's advocate too. I'm only a part-time prima donna, see. (Primo divo?). ;-)

Strikes me that the sound provision/planning was far from ideal.
You'd think that satellite speakers could have been easily used - why didn't the company anticipate this - could they not call the venue if they wanted to avoid the cost of a venue visit?

Doesn't even require lots of wiring - there's wireless tecnology out there even within the budgets of acts not charging as much as that.

Or even using 1or2 BOSE L1 style system to spread the sound, perhaps a separate system in the corner of each of the rooms. Strikes me that the company wasn't reinvesting anything in new/better sound.

Wonder how much of that fee the singers themselves saw?

There also seems to be a lack of clarity in the style of show booked - poor booking & planning process again.


But the worst sin anyway is opera-style singers singing pop-styles! ....a.k.a RussellWatsonitis or :eek: :p ;)

[Kernow]

I didn't Figure you for as a Heavy Metal fan. Nana Mouskouri yes, Heavy Metal, no. :ph34r:

Ah, but it's the higher frequencies (such as those emitted by Nana, sopranos... and Justin Hawkins ! ;) ) to which the ear is most sensitive.
This is due to the small diameter of the eardrum.
At the same decibel levels, high frequencies are far more likely to quickly produce pain & intolerance, along with the other symptoms associated with noise disorientation.
Lower frequencies travel further which is why they are the most often cause of tripping sound limiters but, although annoying, have less effect on hearing.
That is why full-range bi-amped active speaker cabinets are often quoted as (example only) 400 watt LF but only around 100 watt HF.

[Creature]

I often work alongside bands and must admit the PA guys often get it wrong, either too much Bass or its too bloody loud !.



As a mobil Dj its a bit easier for me as I can hit my sliders to help make it quieter and often do. After a band has finished I am playing at the same noise level then over the next 6 or so songs gradually bring it down by about 50% on my own mixer desk, which works great till the sound man then turns his bloody PA up again .......

Having said that I sometimes work with one guy and he knows how I like it and is happy for me to control the volume when spinning the discs.

But as we are often the only visable face we often get all the gripes and people mistakenly blame us for it !

When I am using my own PA - i find that i am often going out with my small pa - as often there are going be old people present at bookings which is loud enough for dance floor but not to load for the older people there - I often get compliments about the level of the music.

Too be brutally honest I am in favour of teh nitetime noise limits of a round 57 decibals when playing gigs in marquees, altho not sure about the 68 decibel limit thats coming into force for outside music in 2013

[Andy Goodtimes]

This is very relevant and concerning as it would appear that this sort of thing being featured on radio and in newspapers could open up the flood gates for complaints against us...lets face it we have a bad enough reputation already and I don't expect it would take much to convince a judge that a DJ played too loud and spoiled an event.

I always encourage requests at the start of an evening and at that time I say "its sometimes difficult to judge volume behind here so if it gets too loud please tell me", however, I doubt that would be sufficient to clear me in the eyes of the law. Maybe instead of light boxes or starcloths a big luminous sign saying "please tell me if the volume is too loud" would help. I'm wondering if there is any kind of specialist insurance to cover us against this kind of claim. One thing I do always tell my B&Gs about is Wedding Insurance but even then if they claimed as a result of something they think I did wrong I bet their insurer would then come after me.

[soundtracker]

On the back of this thread I have made an enquiry to a firm of Insurance Brokers who specialise in Insuring Entertainers, on the basis of providing Professional Indemnity Insurance. I shall of course report back to the forum once I have found out if this is at all feasible, and if so, the costs involved.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Too be brutally honest I am in favour of teh nitetime noise limits of a round 57 decibals when playing gigs in marquees, altho not sure about the 68 decibel limit thats coming into force for outside music in 2013

Are you sure you have that right?

Have a read here about Db sound levels.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

[Shaun]

On the back of this thread I have made an enquiry to a firm of Insurance Brokers who specialise in Insuring Entertainers, on the basis of providing Professional Indemnity Insurance. I shall of course report back to the forum once I have found out if this is at all feasible, and if so, the costs involved.

:thumbsup:

[DAVESOUNDS SERVICES]

Interesting one this post
Ive done a Singing Waiters Pa before in a castle and you should have seen the Equipment list sent to me!
4 Speakers NO LESS THAN 300 WATTS PER SPEAKER
3 High quality Condenser Wireless UHF mikes
The list went on!
Mainly over the top stuff
To avoid Giving the game away
didnt have a sound check either!
However i got well paid.....No one sued me either!

Dave

[yourdj]

I didn't Figure you for a Heavy Metal fan.

Everyone says that. I would put a link in for the video but I am already not very popular on this post so will now retire to the duntz corner bow out - just search iron maiden. :)

It would be interesting to know what PA was used because there is too loud and then there is loud but really bad eq/driver quality.

[Excalibur]

Interesting one this post
Ive done a Singing Waiters Pa before in a castle and you should have seen the Equipment list sent to me!

I'm fairly sure we've seen one of these lists posted before. Shall we just call it "Comprehensive, and Specific" ? ;)

[CRAZY K]

I don't expect it would take much to convince a judge that a DJ played too loud and spoiled an event.



I cant think any fair minded Judge would expect a modern Band or DJ to be anything OTHER THAN loud.:confused:

And of course---if you dont ask for it to be turned down its a touch of volenti non fit injuria--no one is harmed who consents--so either you get out the room or ask for it to be turned down.

If you cant stand the heat etc.

Never heard a Bride or Groom ask for it to be turned DOWN.

I usually get asked to turn it up--a definite mistake i:daft:

Moving on Professional Indemnity cover eh?

Start at a grand minimum premium probably.

[Andy Goodtimes]

I have been asked to turn it down before now, its usually when the younger ones want it turned up and the older ones want it turned down. Also I think it is very easy for a DJ to spoil a night by being too loud, many times I have overheard guests from another room in a hotel saying how loud the DJ is and how its offensive...Sometimes when I go out and work the floor or go off to the toilet or bar I realise its a bit too loud and immediately turn it down on my return...Easy done but my point is that we live in a litigation culture and articles like this will prob put ideas in folks heads.

Dunno if this particular firm use the same PA but when I worked with them before its always been 4 x Nexo PS8s...one in each corner and I don't recall it being over loud.

Thing is sometimes people appear happy and then suddenly a few days afterwards they can turn, I think its a case of when everything is back to normal they realise how much it has cost them and how long it will take them to pay for it all and so they try it on...not saying this specific case is one of those but it does happen.

[CRAZY K]

Thing is sometimes people appear happy and then suddenly a few days afterwards they can turn, I think its a case of when everything is back to normal they realise how much it has cost them and how long it will take them to pay for it all and so they try it on...not saying this specific case is one of those but it does happen.

Spot on--that and of course a night round the pub with friends who tell them to have a go---our last complaint email was received at 1am in the morning---tells you everything you need to know:eek:

[soundtracker]

£50000 worth of Professional Indemnity Insurance available @ £160.96 per annum, seems pretty reasonable.

[Larry B Entertainment]

;-) Glad to see I've made an impact here, then. :-/ ;-)


Sorry Jonny, Lee was the only one I could remember at the time :o

[Jonny Boy]

Sorry Jonny, Lee was the only one I could remember at the time :o

:D LOL - no worries, just joshin' ya, mun.:p

[soundtracker]

So no-ones THAT bothered then?

[Excalibur]

So no-ones THAT bothered then?

We were all behind you 100%, until we got to the bit about it costing money. :o :o :o

I'd have to say that firstly, the deal seems very reasonable, and secondly, I'd never admit to having it, lest it gave some unscrupulous folk ideas about making a fast buck. ;)

[soundtracker]

We were all behind you 100%, until we got to the bit about it costing money. :o :o :o

I'd have to say that firstly, the deal seems very reasonable, and secondly, I'd never admit to having it, lest it gave some unscrupulous folk ideas about making a fast buck. ;)
It was always gonna cost, and I agree, not a good idea to advertise the fact!

[diydisco]

we've all had difficult clients and this sounds like one of them!

I once had a complaint that one of my DJs didnt play any Abba at their party. I asked, "did you ask him to play some" to which the answer was No. I always think people can be part of the solution and not the problem!

The man who runs the electronics shop turned the music down, where was the sound engineer while he was doing this? Why didnt anyone just ask him to turn it down??

As someone said, occasionally ill pop to the bar or toilet and on returning i realise the music is a little too loud and ill adjust accordingly