Would you setup in front of a Fire Exit

[Larry B Entertainment]

Just out of interest really. I had a gig a few weeks back where I was told by venue staff to setup in front of one of the fire exits as they had loads of other escape routes and other discos set up in the same place.

I felt a bit aukward to be honest as I was concious that the punters would think "Look at that idiot blocking a fire door"
I know people on here always comment about fire exits so they obviously dont go un noticed.

So what would you do if they was no other space and you have been told to setup there ? I have added a poll.

[Shaun]

I've had to do it a few times. I've never been happy about it and always politely voice my concerns. If it's the only space available I'll go ahead with the venues wishes.

[Booche]

Ive had to do it once at a Wedding but it also got covered by a starcloth backdrop.

[WWDJ]

Common sense approach always on this. Fire exits are there for a reason, so I would always unless told SPECIFICALLY, leave the exit not only visible but accessible and have done a number of times.

As an aside, once when I was in M&S cafe eating sandwiches purchased 'in store' :eek: :eek: :eek: with an over priced coffee. They told me off in front of other customers about eating the sandwich there and it gave me great pleasure to tell them that there fire exit was blocked by a childrens high chair and they should sort their priorities out :D :D

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I've had this conversation with venue owners/managers a few times and their response is because of the number of other escapes and the number of guests that it "was ok".

That said, I really should know what the rules are on this.

[NKR]

You need to know your travel distances to decide on whether a fire escape is deemed to be required or not. At design stage rooms have fire escapes added based on potential uses of the room and how the venue can be subdivided.

Travel distances work like this for assembly and recreation. Single means of escape 18 meters (or 16 meters where chairs are in rows - this could include dining, its a grey area) to escape route from furtherest part of room. Escape is to a designated fire corridor or external exit. A separate room is not counted unless it is a fire sealed compartment.

Therefore if a room has two exits and you block one the furthest point to egress must be no more than 18 meters, which i would suggest in a function room is tricky.

If you have more than one direction of escape distances can be 45 meters (or 32 meters where chairs are in rows - see above comment on dining). Therefore if you are setting up in a room with three exits, you can block one as long as there are exists within, airing on the safe side, 32 meters of the furthest potential point of egress from that room to outside or a fire safe corridor / fire safe compartment.

I have set up in front of fire doors in the past, but only when i am satisfied the room and routes of escape will comply with building regulations if I do. If the room has only two points of egress I will under no circumstances block one. Where three or more are provided i can take comfort in pacing the escape distances for myself before blocking anything.

[discomobiledj]

Absolutely no!

Fire exits are there for a reason. Health & Safety would have a field day.

You can also guarantee that the venue would never take responsibility and say that is where they told you to set up.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Absolutely no!

Fire exits are there for a reason. Health & Safety would have a field day.

You can also guarantee that the venue would never take responsibility and say that is where they told you to set up.

So what would you do then if there wasn't room elsewhere?

[discomobiledj]

So what would you do then if there wasn't room elsewhere?

I would request that space was made available to one side of the fire exit. For an unknown venue a quick drive down and visit would sort everything out.

[Larry B Entertainment]

Absolutely no!



In the ideal world we wouldnt be faced with such problems but sometimes space just isnt an option.

Would you go home then if their wasnt anywhere else and the venue staff said its ok to setup there ?

Edit : You posted at the same time.

[NKR]

In the ideal world we wouldnt be faced with such problems but sometimes space just isnt an option.

Would you go home then if their wasnt anywhere else and the venue staff said its ok to setup there ?

Edit : You posted at the same time.

I love this forum sometimes. You provide an answer on what building regulations requires in terms of fire escapes. It's ignored and the discussion carries on regardless.

Corporate manslaughter is what you face if you can't prove due diligence in terms of complying with the building regs.

I will leave you to your discussions.

[discomobiledj]

Edit : You posted at the same time.
:D

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I love this forum sometimes. You provide an answer on what building regulations requires in terms of fire escapes. It's ignored and the discussion carries on regardless.

Corporate manslaughter is what you face if you can't prove due diligence in terms of complying with the building regs.

I will leave you to your discussions.

Maybe providing a link from a reliable source would add more weight behind your post? We've seen so many times people second guess on matters like this. (Which is not what I'm trying to say here).

[NKR]

Maybe providing a link from a reliable source would add more weight behind your post? We've seen so many times people second guess on matters like this. (Which is not what I'm trying to say here).

13228

I don't just make this up. I work with buildings for a living, designing and delivering them.

[Larry B Entertainment]

I love this forum sometimes. You provide an answer on what building regulations requires in terms of fire escapes. It's ignored and the discussion carries on regardless.

Corporate manslaughter is what you face if you can't prove due diligence in terms of complying with the building regs.

I will leave you to your discussions.

I was directing my question to Discomobile, hence the quote. Which was pointless anyway because has answered it even before I posted my question :)


13228

I don't just make this up.

No one suggested you do :confused:

[Corabar Entertainment]

You need to know your travel distances to decide on whether a fire escape is deemed to be required or not. At design stage rooms have fire escapes added based on potential uses of the room and how the venue can be subdivided.

Travel distances work like this for assembly and recreation. Single means of escape 18 meters (or 16 meters where chairs are in rows - this could include dining, its a grey area) to escape route from furtherest part of room. Escape is to a designated fire corridor or external exit. A separate room is not counted unless it is a fire sealed compartment.

Therefore if a room has two exits and you block one the furthest point to egress must be no more than 18 meters, which i would suggest in a function room is tricky.

If you have more than one direction of escape distances can be 45 meters (or 32 meters where chairs are in rows - see above comment on dining). Therefore if you are setting up in a room with three exits, you can block one as long as there are exists within, airing on the safe side, 32 meters of the furthest potential point of egress from that room to outside or a fire safe corridor / fire safe compartment.

I have set up in front of fire doors in the past, but only when i am satisfied the room and routes of escape will comply with building regulations if I do. If the room has only two points of egress I will under no circumstances block one. Where three or more are provided i can take comfort in pacing the escape distances for myself before blocking anything.
:like: Very useful post. :thanks:

[Vectis]

:like: Very useful post. :thanks:

:agree:

I've heard of, and used, the 18m rule, but it's always good to have these things confirmed by someone 'in the know'.

In terms of arse-covering, make sure you get your risk assessment countersigned if the venue make you do something you're not totally comfortable with.

[Excalibur]

I've had to do it a few times. I've never been happy about it and always politely voice my concerns. If it's the only space available I'll go ahead with the venues wishes.

What he said.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I would refuse to set up infront of a fire exit. It's called a fire exit for a reason. I have done a fire and safety course in the past and I would go as far as saying that although the venue may well have other escape routes available, they would still be putting mine and their customers safety at risk by not providing full escape routes.

I am no expert on health & safety etc but I do know from my course that all fire escapes should be clear of obstruction at all times. My mate is a firefighter with the Kent brigade and I should really catch up with him and find out the full ruling etc.

What would happen (for arguments sake) if people died because (for example) one of the exits was obstructed by the DJ's equipment?
Is there anything in our Public Liability or Insurance Policies? I know that probably sounds like a silly question etc but just wondered?

At the end of the day, the equipment can always be set up somewhere else. I am sure a customer would be much happier knowing that the DJ they were using was actually bothered about Health & Safety too (maybe they wouldn't be that bothered...who knows?). I would advise whoever was in charge that I would not be setting up infront of a fire exit and if they didn't like it, well...?

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I would refuse to set up infront of a fire exit. It's called a fire exit for a reason. I have done a fire and safety course in the past and I would go as far as saying that although the venue may well have other escape routes available, they would still be putting mine and their customers safety at risk by not providing full escape routes.



I think you need to read NKRs post. It is very informative and isn't guessing at anything.

[Shaun]

:like: Very useful post. :thanks:

:agree: :like: too

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I did read NKR's post and I don't like to guess things mate although saying what I said was not 100% as I can't remember all of the finer details from the course I attended.
It's all very well stating the above and I am not having a go whatsoever but a fire exit is a fire exit. Distances and all that are all well and good and I suppose it depends on the situation at the time, numbers etc etc..

I personally think that if something is called a fire exit in one breath and then in the next, it's ok to say "Don't worry, you can block that one because we still have others available"...well, it's a contradiction isn't it?
Maybe I am a bit more sensitive when it comes to the fire safety subject because I know a couple of people that have lost absolutely everything. One was down to Arson and the other one was an accident. One of these resulted in deaths too.

I know I'm going off on a tangent - Apologies. I just wanted to justify why I am maybe a bit particular about the whole thing. It doesn't mean I am right. It's just my opinion.

[NKR]

I did read NKR's post and I don't like to guess things mate although saying what I said was not 100% as I can't remember all of the finer details from the course I attended.
It's all very well stating the above and I am not having a go whatsoever but a fire exit is a fire exit. Distances and all that are all well and good and I suppose it depends on the situation at the time, numbers etc etc..

I personally think that if something is called a fire exit in one breath and then in the next, it's ok to say "Don't worry, you can block that one because we still have others available"...well, it's a contradiction isn't it?
Maybe I am a bit more sensitive when it comes to the fire safety subject because I know a couple of people that have lost absolutely everything. One was down to Arson and the other one was an accident. One of these resulted in deaths too.

I know I'm going off on a tangent - Apologies. I just wanted to justify why I am maybe a bit particular about the whole thing. It doesn't mean I am right. It's just my opinion.

You will find that some function rooms have a subdivision panel in them and that necessitates additional exits for when the room is divided. Some rooms Will have had additional doors in them for other purposes other than fire, such as getting to bars, or garden areas, but they double up as additional fire exits and are marked accordingly. The reason they are marked as exits as in the event of a fire you would use them, also DB boards can fail and the exit will be lit by battery backed up lighting. As an exit it makes sense to have it fire exit signed.

These are the circumstances you can apply the travel distances in a sensible way.

I know one function room which has 6 fire exit signs in it and its a capacity of around 250 people. However, it has a subdivision panel and doors to the garden for acces to the garden which double up as fire escapes. I block one regularly as the other five suffice and yes I have paced it.

[TonyB]

I have done it twice. Once at a golf course where the complete side of the venue facing the green had sliding doors and they were all open in mid summer. The door I obstructed was a single door that led to a corridor but not sure where it went after that. The other side of me was the main entrance/exit that wasn't obstructed.

Other time was in a hall that had three double push bar exits down each side and one at the end all marked as fire exits. There wasn't anywhere to set up without obstructing one of the doorways. I had to set up in a corner that obstructed one of the side exits leaving the 6 others and the main entrance/exit clear.

[katman]

I was told once that the capacity of a venue is based on the number of people that can be evacuated via "n-1" fire exits based on the fact that in the event of fire some of the exits may not be able to be used.

[BeerFunk]

No, I've never set up in front of a fire exit, possibly partially obstructing it, but always leaving a wheelchair-size width, at least.


You need to know your travel distances to decide on whether a fire escape is deemed to be required or not. At design stage rooms have fire escapes added based on potential uses of the room and how the venue can be subdivided.

Travel distances work like this for assembly and recreation. Single means of escape 18 meters (or 16 meters where chairs are in rows - this could include dining, its a grey area) to escape route from furtherest part of room. Escape is to a designated fire corridor or external exit. A separate room is not counted unless it is a fire sealed compartment.

Therefore if a room has two exits and you block one the furthest point to egress must be no more than 18 meters, which i would suggest in a function room is tricky.

If you have more than one direction of escape distances can be 45 meters (or 32 meters where chairs are in rows - see above comment on dining). Therefore if you are setting up in a room with three exits, you can block one as long as there are exists within, airing on the safe side, 32 meters of the furthest potential point of egress from that room to outside or a fire safe corridor / fire safe compartment.

I have set up in front of fire doors in the past, but only when i am satisfied the room and routes of escape will comply with building regulations if I do. If the room has only two points of egress I will under no circumstances block one. Where three or more are provided i can take comfort in pacing the escape distances for myself before blocking anything.That's good advice on the whole, but I'd argue that all fire exits are there for a reason, and as such they should all be clear.

I've seen footage, as I'm sure you have, of how quickly the structure of a building can change in the event of an explosion or rapidly developing fire. A multitude of possible exits can very quickly diminish and it might just be the closest one to you has a pile of flightcases stacked across it.

OK, we're talking worst case scenarios, but I am a very paranoid sort :D

[spin mobile disco]

I have a way to tape down cables and create a way past me for certain venues if requred but i do advise venue about the problem before proceeding.

[Ecstatic Events]

I would refuse to set up infront of a fire exit. It's called a fire exit for a reason.

Gary, I am 99% certain the ONLY time I have needed to set up in front of a fire exit was at one of your residencies??? Which is where you always set up?

I mentioned this when I was there and the owner said it wasn't a problem... So I set up.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Mike, I can only think of 2 regular places that I do that you have played at for me where that could possibly have happened.

The one in town - As you know, there are a number of places where you can set up but I don't think it's that one?

The other is out of town and there are 2 places where you can set up there which is either end of the venue. If you are talking about the patio doors, they aren't classed as a fire exit. The fire exit is to the side of them.

Nice one Mike ;)

[Larry B Entertainment]

Interesting posts so far, especially the legal issue ones.
I have done a fire marshall course but fire exits wasnt really covered which is strange.

[thex-faders]

Useful info and interesting topic. As a side note are we supposed to fill out a risk assessment form at every new venue we attend?

Or is it the venues responsibility to have a risk assessment done for each type of entertainer?

Not an area i'm very capable in unfortunately, but good to know.

Tom

[Ecstatic Events]

Mike, I can only think of 2 regular places that I do that you have played at for me where that could possibly have happened.

The one in town - As you know, there are a number of places where you can set up but I don't think it's that one?

The other is out of town and there are 2 places where you can set up there which is either end of the venue. If you are talking about the patio doors, they aren't classed as a fire exit. The fire exit is to the side of them.

Nice one Mike ;)

Its Taplins Place and now Im even more certain the patio double doors have a fire exit sign above them. Have a look at your set up pics from there, I could be wrong..

[Larry B Entertainment]

As a side note are we supposed to fill out a risk assessment form at every new venue we attend?

Or is it the venues responsibility to have a risk assessment done for each type of entertainer?



Well being a public venue here, we have to do our own risk assessments. Thats what we were instructed to do by our H&S advisor. Never seen an outside act do one.

BTW, just seen your location. Do you know the Shipmans very well ? lol

:like:

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Its Taplins Place and now Im even more certain the patio double doors have a fire exit sign above them. Have a look at your set up pics from there, I could be wrong..

As you know Mike, there are 2 places where you can set up in that venue. The preferred place is not infront of the patio doors and is up the other end.
Having just looked at my photos, I can confirm that there are NO fire exit signs infront of the patio doors. Confirmation below:

http://www.shakermakeruk.com/090411b.jpg

[Ecstatic Events]

Apologies if it seems that I am "having a go" or trying to make Gary look stupid here???

When I went to this venue, I had a conversation with the owner about setting up next to (what I thought was) a fire exit.

I don't dream up conversations... The sign may of been removed since my visit. But thanks for clearing it up Gary.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Mike,
I have done well over 40 gigs at this venue and I'll be totally honest with you mate, I have never even noticed a fire exit sign there. I haven't taken much notice to be fair but as I said, if there was one there and it has been moved which I don't think is the case, I wouldn't have set up there and I would have been up the other end. The venue owner isn't too bothered which end the Disco is set up.

[thex-faders]

Well being a public venue here, we have to do our own risk assessments. Thats what we were instructed to do by our H&S advisor. Never seen an outside act do one.

BTW, just seen your location. Do you know the Shipmans very well ? lol

:like:

Ok so in general we should carry out our own risk assessments at a village hall for example but its not required for registered venue's etc?

And unfortunately I don't know the shipmans very well haha. I do however run a local website about Billericay, www.billericayessex.co.uk (Shameless plug sorry)

Tom

[DJDC]

I personally would not obstruct a signed fire exit. A signed exit will form part of the venue's Fire risk assessment.

If there was a reason to have to exit the room quickly and people are near an exit that's obstructed so have to travel further to the next one is it acceptable? the 18m rule would be my fall back, if I really had to, however would anyones PLI cover for an injury / accident resuting from me obstructing an exit?

Several years ago my wife got trapped in a nightclub and nearly got crushed as an available and near exit was obsructed (chained), when there was a fire. You may also recall tragic events elsewhere more recently.
Let the venue do what it wants but I won't risk lifes.
What would the view of the fire service or licensing authorities be? several years ago I saw an event stopped by the fire service at a venue due to exits been blocked.

Also where do you all park your vehicles? Many access are fire exits do you leave your motor right up by the doors all night? I move mine to ensure there is sufficent space.

At the end of the day I have done everything practicable!

[DJRecardo]

Yes, but only once speaking to the venue staff and ensuring there was no other locations for me to set up

[CRAZY K]

We all have a responsibility and duty of care to do what is sensible, logical and in the best interests of safety.

Sooo as long as you make sure there is reasonable accesss to a Fire Exit that you might be playing near --this has happened several times to me and I simply point out to the venue manager and the client whats happening---thats all you can do.

And an announcement over the PA as well. ;)

Well it isnt quite the end of the story--you can either pack up and go home or play in a different position BUT quite often the ideal position really is near a Fire Exit.:daft: :daft: :daft:

Also most buildings have more than one Fire exit so you can point those out as well.

One Wedding in MK Milton Keynes I was ASKED by the venue to play in front of the FE but they apppreciated my common sense in being far enough away to allow urgent access. i.e. not blocking it.

I dont know if there are any actual rules about how many feet and inches are involved:confused:

They did say---some of the :Censored: discos block the exit totally:eek:

Apologies to DJs in MK if its not you guys:D