Loudspeaker Management

[WWDJ]

Would I benefit from some sort of loudspeaker management?

If so what?

At the moment I am running RCF902s and RCF710s. The 710s will outrun the 902s no problem and the 902s will clip if played hard with a lot of dance and rnb. I am wondering whether some sort of management would allow me to roll off frequencies that the 902s cannot play and give them more efficiency to play louder. Ie. subsonic

I am still experimenting with the setup, 4th outing this weekend and I will play with then gains etc to see if I can get an improvement but I was wondering whether I need something more scientific ?

Any thoughts?

Dave

[Sound To Light Services]

Would I benefit from some sort of loudspeaker management?

If so what?

At the moment I am running RCF902s and RCF710s. The 710s will outrun the 902s no problem and the 902s will clip if played hard with a lot of dance and rnb. I am wondering whether some sort of management would allow me to roll off frequencies that the 902s cannot play and give them more efficiency to play louder. Ie. subsonic

I am still experimenting with the setup, 4th outing this weekend and I will play with then gains etc to see if I can get an improvement but I was wondering whether I need something more scientific ?

Any thoughts?

Dave

Hi Dave,
We use these little beauties on all of our large installs:

Loadspeaker Management system (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx)

Bit of a pain to set up, but once you've done it a few times it's a piece of cake :)

Kev @ STLS

[WWDJ]

Hi Dave,
We use these little beauties on all of our large installs:

Loadspeaker Management system (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx)

Bit of a pain to set up, but once you've done it a few times it's a piece of cake :)

Kev @ STLS

Thanks Kev. I have no experience of these type of units so I don't know what setup means. I use the same setup each time I go out 2 subs, 2 tops (so not large!) ... I want to get the best from it.

What will this unit do for me? I know there are also units like the Driverack PA+. What do they do in comparison?

[Disco Dave]

Thats all good but does the RCF sub not have a built in crossover.

So a crossover going to a crossover not good really ?

[WWDJ]

Thats all good but does the RCF sub not have a built in crossover.

So a crossover going to a crossover not good really ?

The RCF sub I believe has a crossover to send <80hz or <120hz to the tops. I don't this affects what the sub plays?

[Disco Dave]

yes the sub will be on a crossover its 80 - 120 Hz

So anything higher then 120 will not be sent to the driver and anything blow 80 as well ..

[WWDJ]

yes the sub will be on a crossover its 80 - 120 Hz

So anything higher then 120 will not be sent to the driver and anything blow 80 as well ..

OK. What about subsonic frequencies? Realstically the 902 cannot reproduce beow about 38hz to reasonable SPL, but bass lower than this will be coming off the mixer so it is trying to reproduce what it cannot acheive ?

[Disco Dave]

Sorry but I don't no anything about subsonic frequencies. But I think they are lower the 80 hz and the crossover in the will stop this.

Is there away to bypass the crossover in sub.

[Sound To Light Services]

Thanks Kev. I have no experience of these type of units so I don't know what setup means. I use the same setup each time I go out 2 subs, 2 tops (so not large!) ... I want to get the best from it.

What will this unit do for me? I know there are also units like the Driverack PA+. What do they do in comparison?

This unit allows you to trim the frequencies to each speaker and allow delay, limit etc.
We use them in pub/club enviroments to stop all of those naughty Dj's from driving the rig too hard and to give a nice rounded shape to the sound.

[WWDJ]

I wanted to open the discussion again as I am still not happy with the sound. At the moment I think the room is the problem, not my system as such as I should have a well balanced system capable of producing good sound levels.

On Saturday the dance floor was bass light whereas other parts of the room were boomy. The subs were on the small stage, not really an option to have them off stage, but I could investigate.

I found myself riding the bass on the x500 all night and it was mentioned that the bass was really boomy in parts of the room spoiling the experience.

What technical solutions can I take?
Needs to be simple and quick as I don't get long sound checks. I like the thought of a microphone that eqs the room but do you do just one position or multiple?
I also want to be able to store presets for my regular venues.

Really need some help as my sound upgrade isn't paying the dividends it should at the moment.

[Sound To Light Services]

I wanted to open the discussion again as I am still not happy with the sound. At the moment I think the room is the problem, not my system as such as I should have a well balanced system capable of producing good sound levels.

On Saturday the dance floor was bass light whereas other parts of the room were boomy. The subs were on the small stage, not really an option to have them off stage, but I could investigate.

I found myself riding the bass on the x500 all night and it was mentioned that the bass was really boomy in parts of the room spoiling the experience.

What technical solutions can I take?
Needs to be simple and quick as I don't get long sound checks. I like the thought of a microphone that eqs the room but do you do just one position or multiple?
I also want to be able to store presets for my regular venues.

Really need some help as my sound upgrade isn't paying the dividends it should at the moment.

What's the shape of the room and where are you placed within it.
If you can do a very rough drawing and either PM me with it or attach it to a post.
It's sounds like an acoustic problem but I can't be sure until I see the room layout.

[Disco Dave]

More boomy then you need more sub's should go passive with an active crossover to get the best of the bass bin's

[hammy]

I have passive subs using an active crossover(due to having active tops)and its a gorgeous sound

[WWDJ]

More boomy then you need more sub's should go passive with an active crossover to get the best of the bass bin's


I have passive subs using an active crossover(due to having active tops)and its a gorgeous sound

I've tried the speakers at home and the sound is lovely. It's when you begin to wind them up that we are getting booming in some locations in the room. On the dancefloor it sounds fine, maybe a bit bass light as I am holding back on the subs


What's the shape of the room and where are you placed within it.
If you can do a very rough drawing and either PM me with it or attach it to a post.
It's sounds like an acoustic problem but I can't be sure until I see the room layout.

This is the room layout. The black bits are walls or non accessible parts of the room.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pKloMDtG77c/TxWoQTcHNOI/AAAAAAAAF8I/sQF__hs-r1Y/s642/Conclub.png

Shots of the room to give you some idea or materials and size. Thanks.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3nC1-ULBokc/TxPq3nv_uOI/AAAAAAAAF7w/asW1TB9HaqU/s912/DSC01543.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JHKMxf_1rzQ/TxPrYD4co5I/AAAAAAAAF74/7-McJ_6LK8o/s640/DSC01542.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-cg22d75XU4A/Tjbc05NfLcI/AAAAAAAAF4M/PkfAFcigIVU/s912/DSC00847.jpg

[TonyB]

I think you are expecting too much from the RCF902s. You are not the first that has mentioned that they struggled and I had a similar conversation with someone else that had the same bins last week. The spec on paper looks impressive i.e. 1000w (assume max). 130db output but in use they seem underpowered. You can't get a quart out of a pint pot and I don't think speaker management will make any difference. You need bigger bins.

[WWDJ]

I think you are expecting too much from the RCF902s. You are not the first that has mentioned that they struggled and I had a similar conversation with someone else that had the same bins last week. The spec on paper looks impressive i.e. 1000w (assume max). 130db output but in use they seem underpowered. You can't get a quart out of a pint pot and I don't think speaker management will make any difference. You need bigger bins.

On Saturday I gained them differently. 902s at 12 o clock, 710s at about 10 o clock. The subs were not peaking.

What I am looking for is a nice tight sound, not wall rumbling bass, that's not the idea. Wouldn't bigger bins cause more problems with acoustics ?

I don't really have room for bigger bins anyhow in my vehicle.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Have you tried taking the covers off?




:sofa:

[WWDJ]

Have you tried taking the covers off?




:sofa:

And here was me expecting a useful answer given you have RCF ... :eek:

[hammy]

Have you tried taking the covers off?




:sofa:

Believe it or not I was waiting for this comment :D :D

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

And here was me expecting a useful answer given you have RCF ... :eek:

OK, my useful answer is, I think you are being way too fussy. You should be able to eq and position your cabs to sound great in which ever venue you are in. I've used RCF for years and never had this issue.

I really think you are over thinking this.

The fact that you're on a stage doesn't probably help and neither does having one sub next to a wall.

[WWDJ]

OK, my useful answer is, I think you are being way too fussy. You should be able to eq and position your cabs to sound great in which ever venue you are in. I've used RCF for years and never had this issue.

I really think you are over thinking this.

The fact that you're on a stage doesn't probably help and neither does having one sub next to a wall.

Thanks. My theory, albeit flawed was to use them near the edge of the stage where it is most stable. The centre is a bit bouncy. I spoke to Andy Goodtimes tonight (thanks Andy) and he suggested trying the phasing or perhaps even 1 sub. Previously I was using a single 705 with Mackie SRM450s and although the 902 hasn't got the grunt of the 705 it might be enough. I guess the answer is to take 2 and try and mount them off stage and then turn the second one on if there isn't enough bass with 1.

I really hope I am overthinking it as I really need to just plug and play.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

Thanks. My theory, albeit flawed was to use them near the edge of the stage where it is most stable. The centre is a bit bouncy. I spoke to Andy Goodtimes tonight (thanks Andy) and he suggested trying the phasing or perhaps even 1 sub. Previously I was using a single 705 with Mackie SRM450s and although the 902 hasn't got the grunt of the 705 it might be enough. I guess the answer is to take 2 and try and mount them off stage and then turn the second one on if there isn't enough bass with 1.

I really hope I am overthinking it as I really need to just plug and play.

Is it just that venue you have used them in and are basing the sound on or have you used them in different places/venues?

[NKR]

How about placing them side by side in the middle (bass is omnidirectional so they just make posh speaker stands and don't need to be under each cab, just in line with it. Imagine dropping a stone in a puddle, bass does that ripple). You will increase the air movement from the units by effectively doubling them up dead centre. You will find the result quite surprising.

The first time I ever side by sided cabs I was amazed. I did it with two pairs of RW3's. I had done the same room with one set and it was difficult. Was advised to double up and side by side them in pairs. Used the same amp and my god the difference was immense. Had to back right off as the air movement did the work. Give that a try.

Also I recommend a DBX drive rack to set your cross over points, limiters and compression. You can even pink a room, which effectively it makes a horrible noise for a while with a mic plugged into it in the middle of the room and the it auto sets it for you to the ideal settings. Never used that bit yet, but it will do it I am told.

[WWDJ]

Is it just that venue you have used them in and are basing the sound on or have you used them in different places/venues?

Just 2 venues so far. They definitely sounded better in the pub at new year albeit they were rattling the windows, there was less boom, and I did have them close to a wall, so i will remember that next time to move them in a bit.


How about placing them side by side in the middle (bass is omnidirectional so they just make posh speaker stands and don't need to be under each cab, just in line with it. Imagine dropping a stone in a puddle, bass does that ripple). You will increase the air movement from the units by effectively doubling them up dead centre. You will find the result quite surprising.

The first time I ever side by sided cabs I was amazed. I did it with two pairs of RW3's. I had done the same room with one set and it was difficult. Was advised to double up and side by side them in pairs. Used the same amp and my god the difference was immense. Had to back right off as the air movement did the work. Give that a try.

Also I recommend a DBX drive rack to set your cross over points, limiters and compression. You can even pink a room, which effectively it makes a horrible noise for a while with a mic plugged into it in the middle of the room and the it auto sets it for you to the ideal settings. Never used that bit yet, but it will do it I am told.

I see you can see crossovers on there. Can you say for instance that the sub operates between 50hz and 100hz and nothing outside that gets passed to it, or is it just a low pass filter sending everything <100hz to the subs?

[Excalibur]

I see you can see crossovers on there. Can you say for instance that the sub operates between 50hz and 100hz and nothing outside that gets passed to it, or is it just a low pass filter sending everything <100hz to the subs?

In effect, yes.

[NKR]

In effect, yes.

It has adjustable filters on it and then there is the post crossover EQ, which I believe allows you to filter some of the frequencies out (I have not fiddled with that thought).

What it sounds like you need is the DBX driveracks Subharmonics feature.

From the manual.

24-36Hz and 36-56Hz (Subharmonic Synthesis) Level - 0 to 100%

These controls individually let you customize the amount of the respective synthesized frequencies to be added in, tuning the ultimate bass response of your system to taste. For example, if the sound is too woofy or growly, try turning down the 36Hz-56Hz level. If your woofers are bottoming out (making a ticking, popping sound), try turning down the 24Hz-36Hz level. You may find that a setting produces fine results in one room, but produces too much boominess in another. If this occurs, adjust the controls as needed, (e.g., increase one or the other of the band levels). Experimentation will pay off with smooth, full, deeply extended bass. Remember, you are not selecting a frequency. You are controlling the overall level of each band.

Its a good toy and I am starting to learn how to play with it properly.

[Excalibur]

It has adjustable filters on it .
Ah. Yet again, I have misunderstood the post. Silly me. :o :o I thought we were talking about the fixed filters on the sub. We appear to have moved on to the Driverack without me noticing. Sorry.

[NKR]

Ah. Yet again, I have misunderstood the post. Silly me. :o :o I thought we were talking about the fixed filters on the sub. We appear to have moved on to the Driverack without me noticing. Sorry.

I think we have or I am just off on a tangent outside the box again :o . I have a valid point thought having adjustable crossovers and subharmonics in one box should fix the problem for him.

[WWDJ]

I think we have or I am just off on a tangent outside the box again :o . I have a valid point thought having adjustable crossovers and subharmonics in one box should fix the problem for him.

I'm happy to talk about the capabilities and experiences of the Driverack. The theory is I should be about to get the sound right by moving the speakers elsewhere/phasing/etc but it's good to know what can be done if this room proves to be a real nightmare.

[Andy Goodtimes]

I have had exactly the same problems with one particular room with the 902 bins, I also have 905s, K subs and some turbo Sound passive double 18s which do not give me problems in the same room. However, the 902 bins are very much my preferred bin when they are set up right and sounding good. I would say they are a serious bass bin and don’t be fooled by their size.

Firstly I overcame the problem by inverting the phase on one of the bins, but this is not the correct way of doing things as it does reduce bass and can cause the sound to sound jumpy …its just a quick fix, sometimes when you are setting up during a short turn round and the Wedding breakfast has ran over you have to get on with it without messing about which is a pity as you just invert the phase and accept the shortfalls that this gives. The 710/902 combination is a 3.5k, £3.5k system that can sound amazing so why make do…might as well get some Tapcos.

In my problem room I now know exactly how to place the cabs and the result is a superb sound throughout the room. Thing is me getting it right was more by luck than judgement.

Sounds like Dave’s problem is definitely an acoustic one as he has already proved that the bins are fine and can work well in other venues. Placing bins against walls is definitely not on especially in small/medium venues and especially when walls run parallel as this will increase the room resonance and cause the type of problems Dave is having, its often trial and error but a usual place would be about ¼ of the room width from each side wall. This is because with bass the wave lengths are longer.

In small/medium sized venues which Dave’s is the bass lies close to the ground and it utilises the ground to increase the depth and volume of the bass so getting them off the stage is a big help. But, the mid/tops should be close to the edge of the stage and the bins as close to the front of the stage too so as to cut out time alignment problems of having the bins closer to the punters.

Bass is power hungry and whilst harmonics are directional bass is not, therefore running the bass mono means the load is equally shared by both channels which is helpful for power considerations but also for evenly distributing the bass throughout the venue.

Our ears will pick up lower frequencies in larger rooms or outdoors, small/medium rooms can’t cope with deep bass so often in venues that hold round the 150 mark it is pointless going below 50khz, this is because deep bass travels the easiest. Restricting the bottom end cuts out the low end noise that takes up most amp power and will give a clearer and louder sound. The signal can clip or go into compression because a low frequency steels the headroom.

Personally I don’t like graphics and the various types of speaker management systems. As Dave has a new PA the risk is he will make his new PA sound as bad as the old one because that is his ears reference point and unless you have exceptional hearing its always best to use one of the more sophisticated systems with a measuring microphone which does it all for you.

Sorry but its all going to be a suck it and see thing but it’s a good system and can sound good.

[Gary]

Are the bass cabs active?, or passive with a separate amplifier.

If the X500 thst you mentioned "riding the bass" on is the Denon DN-X500, you could have at least a testing solution, if not a working solution...

The DN-X500 has a subwoofer output (mono 1/4inch socket ) and it's paired with a control from adjusting the lowest frequency leaving the subwoofer output (40hz to 200hz) - a few "pre-punter" minutes with this control at various settings could give you an insight as to how effective any other filtering or roll-off of frequencies might be for you and your system.

[Excalibur]

Are the bass cabs active?, or passive with a separate amplifier.

If the X500 that you mentioned "riding the bass" on is the Denon DN-X500, you could have at least a testing solution, if not a working solution...
.

There are no A suffixes, but since the cabs are the RCF series, I'm willing to wager 50p that they're active. Your suggestion is interesting, and logical, but may have a drawback. If he feeds the subs from the sub out, then he will have to feed the tops full range, won't he? :confused: ( Mind you, this might be an answer anyway, thinking about it. Worth a try )

Also, use of the sub out has just hatched a cunning plan, Baldrick. Ta for that.

( Wanders off to place yet another order with CPC )

[WWDJ]

Thanks for the comments everyone and certainly some things to try there. Cheers!!!!!!

The setup is all active yes.

[WWDJ]

Thought I would ressurrect this thread as I have had chance to play with the system this morning. I thought I would give it a warm up in advance of a gig I have next week.

What I have noticed today and this may be just a consequence of using subs, but it isn't easy to get a balanced sound at low levels and a balanced sound at high levels.

To get a nice rounded sound at warmup levels, which is normally how I would soundcheck my system I tend to set my mixer to 12 o clock on the bass and then balance the volumes between the subs and tops until I get a nice warm sound.

What seems to happen when you ramp the volume up on the mixer is the bass seems to overtake the tops in terms of level, but peaks out the subs quicker than the tops.

To maintain the balanced sound I have to wind back the bass to about 9-10 o clock on the mixer which eases off the levels of the subs a bit.

Is this normal or should I be looking at some sort of control, limiter etc ?

[katman]

Its normal. The ear is less sensitive to bass at low levels so you need it set a bit higher.

Remember the "loudness" control that used to be common on hifi amplifiers, that boosted the bass response at lower settings on the volume control and tailed the boost off as you increased the volume.

You cant have a "one size fits all" setting as so many factors affect the sound. The volume you are playing at, the acoustics of the room, the furnishings in the room and the quantity and placement of people in the room.

You have to adjust to suit the prevailing conditions and the music you are playing.

[WWDJ]

Its normal. The ear is less sensitive to bass at low levels so you need it set a bit higher.

Remember the "loudness" control that used to be common on hifi amplifiers, that boosted the bass response at lower settings on the volume control and tailed the boost off as you increased the volume.

You cant have a "one size fits all" setting as so many factors affect the sound. The volume you are playing at, the acoustics of the room, the furnishings in the room and the quantity and placement of people in the room.

You have to adjust to suit the prevailing conditions and the music you are playing.

Thanks. That's what I need. A 'loudness' button' ... a rackmount 'loudness' button :D

[katman]

Thanks. That's what I need. A 'loudness' button' ... a rackmount 'loudness' button :D

If you like having the Bass set at "12 oclock" or flat as it is more propely known then when you set up, run at the levels you expect for the later part of the evening and set up the speakers to sound right and not clip or distort.

Then turn the volume down to the early evening volume setting and turn the bass up to about "2 o'clock" as needed to compensate for the lower levels but dont forget to turn it down as you increase the volume during the course of the evening. :)

[WWDJ]

If you like having the Bass set at "12 oclock" or flat as it is more propely known then when you set up, run at the levels you expect for the later part of the evening and set up the speakers to sound right and not clip or distort.

Then turn the volume down to the early evening volume setting and turn the bass up to about "2 o'clock" as needed to compensate for the lower levels but dont forget to turn it down as you increase the volume during the course of the evening. :)

I will give that a go. I do tend to mix using the EQ controls in particular the bass, so 12 o clock is a logical position to reset the controls after each mix.

[sweetie]

I also use two 902 bins with my qsc k12s and will experiment over the weekend and see what I come up with. I'm considering downsizing from the qscs to the new rcf hd range 10s too.