Worries about my new pa (tweeters)

[dependabledjs]

Hi all!

After 5 years out of the scene, I have decided to return to Dj'ing, hopefully for weddings. Yesterday I bought a second hand PA (For 1600 euro) from a band that had upgraded, and I have one or two concerns. The PA system is a follows:

Amplifiers:

Powermaxx ME 650, 2x 650w @ 8 Ohm
Powermaxx ME 550, 2x 550w @ 8 Ohm

Both amplifiers are controlled by an active crossever (DBX Driverack PA). They were bought from musicstore two years ago as a bundle for 1100 EURO, and are in pristine condition.

http://www.musicstore.de/en_EN/IEP/_SET_-Music-Store-Amp-Pack-II-/art-PAH273

The inputs at the moment come from a 24ch mixing desk, with onboard effects, the usual mixing desk stuff

Speakers:

Subs: Custom built enclosure, loaded with an unbranded (thomann i think) 18" speaker, 500W RMS, front mounted, loads of foam inside, no crossover.

Tops: Custom built enclosuer, Loaded with an Eminence delta 15a speaker 400w, and some chaepy piezo looking thing in a horn (horn is 8" by 3" ish)

Others: 4 cables, all 2.5mm high quality, Poles for the tops, flightcase for the amps and enclosures.

The system came with an enclosed trailer, with lights and in good condition. The whole lot cost me 1600 EURO, or 1340 STERLING. I value the trailer at about 400 EURO, meaning the sound system would be around 1200 Euro, or 1000 STERLING

On plugging it in and testing it outside, at full volume, it sounded great. This was before I had taken apart the tops and looked at the tweeters!

Does anyone have any ideas as to weather I got value for my money, or have I gone and made a hasty decision and bought junk?! Are these cheapy looking tweeters industry standard across the cheaper cabs that are available on thomann (250 euro ish), or have i just been unlucky and bought a rubbish system...

I am not an audiofile, I just like my system to have strong bass, clear mids, and highs that wont cut you in two.

I intend to use the system in medium sized halls with about 300 guests.

Thanks in advance for any opinions or advice.

Ken

[Excalibur]

A make/model/serial number and/or piccy might help. Might. Just cos it's a piezo isn't the end of the world. Should you wish to upgrade to compression drivers, it ought to be possible. You will of course need a passive crossover inside the top cabs to do this, so you're looking at some expense.

[dependabledjs]

Hi Excalibur,

Thanks for the reply! The markings on the tweeter are pretty vague, it just says "Le,son high efficiency" with no serial, model, or power rating. They don't sound awful to me, I'm just worried about reliability. I will post a picture later on. There is some sort of crossover inside the cab, it has input, highs out and lows out.

[Excalibur]

Hi Excalibur,

Thanks for the reply! The markings on the tweeter are pretty vague, it just says "Le,son high efficiency" with no serial, model, or power rating. They don't sound awful to me, I'm just worried about reliability. I will post a picture later on. There is some sort of crossover inside the cab, it has input, highs out and lows out.

Well then, I may perhaps be the bearer of good news. ;) If there is a crossover inside, it indicates that your drivers may already be compression ones, as Piezos don't need crossovers. Piccy would be nice. Cheers.

[dependabledjs]

Pics as requested!

As I said before, im not worried about the amplifier or subwoofer quality...just the tweeters in the tops, and weather the whole sound system was work the 1000 sterling I paid

[Excalibur]

Ta for the piccies. Now unfortunately, it may get a bit more confusing. :( From Google:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/wiring-diagram-add-le-son-piezo-tweeter-116730/

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/leson-tweeters-172449/


It appears that your tweeters may be Piezos after all. Let's hope Davesounds or Katman see this, cos they know loads more than me.

I still wouldn't be too worried at this point. If it sounds good, you're off to a good start. I'll have a look round and see what else I can find out.

[DAVESOUNDS SERVICES]

"Le,son high efficiency"
are cheapo piezo tweeter manufactured under licence!
the board contains a 39 ohm resistor to protect your amp from destruction should the tweeter fail.
Im afraid from what ive seen the speakers are low budget cabs
( these would have been unsuitable for a band to sing through with any clarity)If the system sounds ok with Disco hammering through it im sure it will be just fine.)The DBX Driverack will help it sound good and look after your amps and Loudspeakers.
Why did the band "upgrade"???

PS If you can borrow a multimeter simly measure the resistace of the tweeter (test leads across the tweeter all wires off)
8 ohms is a real moving coil tweeter much higher is a piece of vibrating Piezo material
Also forgot to add piezos weigh ounces dynamics weigh pounds!!!!
cheers

[dependabledjs]

Thanks again for having a look!

I looked at those links, and as you said...confusing! Some people seem to think that when used properly, they may be a little better than standard piezos.

Now, I wonder am I using them properly! The 15" eminence delta has a range of 48hz - 4khs, hopefully that doesn't leave too much of a "gap" to the low range of the LeSon tweeter.

Hi Davesounds,

Thanks for the reply! The band are a well regarded band here in Ireland, the engineer said the band have become part of bigger band for Shane McGowan. Whether that is believeable or not is anyones guess!

I had the driverack auto eq the system earlier, and it didn't have to do too much. The three highest EQ channels were boosted by 4-5db, and the rest were more or less flat.

Do you think the system would sound awfully unbalanced with these tweeters? I wont be able to use them for a few weeks in anywhere bigger than my kitchen. I regret buying them now, as my budget has been hammered!

[DAVESOUNDS SERVICES]

Hiya Dependable!
well the Driveracks worth 200 if its ok
ive no idea bout that make of amps so ill guess 350 the pair
plus 50 for a case ( hope its got a case! )
so the cabs are only 100 per box ....
plus 100 for the good quality cables
do 4 gigs and its paid for
hope it sounds good.. also when you're better off upgrade the tweeters and fit 2 crossover cards in the tops and you should have a good loud balenced quality system keep is up to date with your progress

Dave, please watch the text talk. It is not allowed.Thanks.

[Excalibur]

hope it sounds good.. also when you're better off upgrade the tweeters and fit 2 crossover cards in the tops and you should have a good loud balenced quality system keep is up to date with your progress



As Dave and I have said, run with what you've got, then after a while, if you feel you want to upgrade, ask about a crossover and compression drivers. Good luck and keep us posted.

[dependabledjs]

Bugger, it will have to do!

The amps are still for sale new, 790 for the two. The ones I got are in a rack with the driverack, all good as new. At least that part of the system is reasonable!

May I ask one more question, I used a pair of thomann speakers for a few years and was very happy with them...they are here:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa_252_eco_mkii.htm

I see they have a 1" tweeter in them too, and for the price of the speaker id imagine its a piezo too? I was very happy with the sound from them running at 400w a side.

In wonder would my new system sound as good as those did...or maybe better seeing that im using two amps, 18 inch subs, and a crossover with them.

Heres hoping!

[katman]

I concur with Dave.

I repaired a pair of cheapo speakers last year that had a basic crossover in there, as Dave says, more to protect the amp, and on both of them the Horn was a piezo which was totally blown to pieces and on one crossover the wirewound resistor had got so hot it burnt though the PCB.

I fail to see how any sane person could drive a speaker cabinet that hard to cause that much damage as it would have started to sound bad a long time before death.

.... then again, with some of the current "music" even the best speakers sound awful !!!

[Excalibur]

The Thomann design is a common one, and don't decry it just because it has piezos in. You said it sounded good, well that's fine. I have a couple of pairs of similar design, and they're fine.

Your new rig ought to sound better, so run with it for now. If and when you decide it needs to be altered, we'll cross that bridge then.

[CRAZY K]

Hi all!

After 5 years out of the scene, I have decided to return to Dj'ing, hopefully for weddings. Yesterday I bought a second hand PA (For 1600 euro) from a band that had upgraded, and I have one or two concerns. The PA system is a follows:

Amplifiers:

Powermaxx ME 650, 2x 650w @ 8 Ohm
Powermaxx ME 550, 2x 550w @ 8 Ohm

Both amplifiers are controlled by an active crossever (DBX Driverack PA). They were bought from musicstore two years ago as a bundle for 1100 EURO, and are in pristine condition.

http://www.musicstore.de/en_EN/IEP/_SET_-Music-Store-Amp-Pack-II-/art-PAH273

The inputs at the moment come from a 24ch mixing desk, with onboard effects, the usual mixing desk stuff

Speakers:

Subs: Custom built enclosure, loaded with an unbranded (thomann i think) 18" speaker, 500W RMS, front mounted, loads of foam inside, no crossover.

Tops: Custom built enclosuer, Loaded with an Eminence delta 15a speaker 400w, and some chaepy piezo looking thing in a horn (horn is 8" by 3" ish)

Others: 4 cables, all 2.5mm high quality, Poles for the tops, flightcase for the amps and enclosures.

The system came with an enclosed trailer, with lights and in good condition. The whole lot cost me 1600 EURO, or 1340 STERLING. I value the trailer at about 400 EURO, meaning the sound system would be around 1200 Euro, or 1000 STERLING

On plugging it in and testing it outside, at full volume, it sounded great. This was before I had taken apart the tops and looked at the tweeters!

Does anyone have any ideas as to weather I got value for my money, or have I gone and made a hasty decision and bought junk?! Are these cheapy looking tweeters industry standard across the cheaper cabs that are available on thomann (250 euro ish), or have i just been unlucky and bought a rubbish system...

I am not an audiofile, I just like my system to have strong bass, clear mids, and highs that wont cut you in two.

I intend to use the system in medium sized halls with about 300 guests.

Thanks in advance for any opinions or advice.

Ken

I admire your enthusiasm in using custom built kit.

Piezo Tweeters are ok for lower levels although as Peter says for higher sound levels better to have proper horns.

At least mine were cheap to replace at Maplins not that they went too often anyway ;)

Bit late now --but as a start up I would go and buy sone cheap secondhand Peavey Speakers like Pro 15s /Pro Subs --- or Class D --at least you know they will make plenty of noise and parts are readily available.

Loads of amps/mixers available secondhand.

Tried and tested for mid market until you upgrade to the likes of RCF EV etc.

As long as the kit is reliable and sounds ok should be fine, I would be a little concerned at those Piezo style Horns trying to satisfy 300 people though.

I have such a gig booked tonight--my battle plan is to have the Peavey UL15s working full range on top of a pair of Peavey Pro Subs with separate amps for each.

Yee-ha!

Peter expect a call for advice;)

:D :D :D

[dependabledjs]

Hi all,

Thanks to everyone for the input! I got the speakers outside for a while today, and ran them at gig volume for a few tracks. The sound quality was reasonable. Certain high frequencies would cut you in two, didnt get a chance to isolate these with the eq as it started raining!

To deal with any possible failures during or between gigs, i'm going to keep one or two piezos in the trailer. Can anyone recommend anything half reasonable from ebay or maplin, that would suite a cab with a 400w low driver?

I found this one on thomann, I would consider putting two of those in and keeping the LeSon ones as spares, if the eminence ones are any good.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_apt150.htm

It's been a long long time since I looked at any speaker physics. Does anyone know how much power actually gets passed onto the tweeters in a 400w cab? I realise that most of the power is going to be below 3khz, but surely a sizeable chunk of the 400w remains in the 3khz to 16khz range.

Crazy K, my first exposure to the DJ world was with a linedance choreographer in Cork, I was his DJ/sound guy for 4 years...lots of fun times for his twice a week workshops and events!

Ken

[CRAZY K]

Can anyone recommend anything half reasonable from ebay or maplin, that would suite a cab with a 400w low driver?....

Crazy K, my first exposure to the DJ world was with a linedance choreographer in Cork, I was his DJ/sound guy for 4 years...lots of fun times for his twice a week workshops and events!

Ken

Line dance sound man --he he!

I dont know the tech stuff but heres a link to the shop I bought my UL 15s from and you could do worse than buy the actual horns used in UL15s --

See here--http://www.stagebeat.co.uk/product.php?product_id=114138

Hope this might help.

The ratings are interesting 240w peak, 120w program 60w continuous;)

The cabinets are 500w rms so not far off yours.

HTH

[Excalibur]

Hi all,

I found this one on thomann, I would consider putting two of those in and keeping the LeSon ones as spares, if the eminence ones are any good.

http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_apt150.htm

Ken
You're learning already,Grasshopper. ;) That's one which I'd cast an eye over already. Thing is, you'd need a high power crossover to go inside the cab. I'm guessing that the one presently inside your cabs is unsuitable.
Something like:
http://cpc.farnell.com/eminence/pxb2-3k5/crossover-2-way-3-5khz-8ohm/dp/LS00208

Without one, you'll wave goodbye to the new tweeters in short order.

[dependabledjs]

Well, thats not too bad news then! Less than 100 quid and I should have something a lot better.

The passive crossovers available online are massively overpriced for what they are though. Two inductor coils, a few capacitors, and a handfull of resistors....cant be worth more than 10 overall!