The inexperienced selling themselves as more...

[Shaun]

I won't mention any names, as in reality I could be discussing several different people, and I don't want to single out anyone. So, this thread is made in general terms, but it's something that I've thought about for quite some time....

I'm talking about young and (in real terms) inexperienced DJs. The type that get a few ideas off forums, use the forum as the place to get all the answers, buy a booth/wizzard/whatever the latest fad is, and think that they can move up to the stage of charging a high premium for their service, When in reality they don't have the musical knowledge, skill and years of experience to back up their fee.

I truly believe that situations like this do more harm to our industry than the low cost operators we so often moan about. They sell themselves as "professionals", and to the general enquirer that's what they think they are getting, where in reality they are getting an individual that doesn't have the skill-set that years of experience brings, yet sells themselves as more than they are.

We've all seen it, young operators making out that they are bigger "companies" than they are. They are selling what is no more than an illusion to the client. Does this devalue the professional service that the true experienced DJs offer?

This isn't an 'ageist' thread. I'm not knocking all young DJs. My bug-bear is the ones that sell themselves as more than they are, and in the process not offering full transparency to the clients. Forums are great resources of information, mainly due to the wealth of knowledge that all the experienced members bring to the table and offer freely to the rest of the members. To me (and to many others) it just seems like there are DJs that take on the information and try to run before they can walk.


Is it peer pressure?

Do the inexperienced see all the information on offer and what the long term professionals offer and think "Hmmm, I can do that and charge that too", without having the real experience that time and events over a long period brings?

Are these type of DJs devaluing the service of long term established members?


I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this. And to anyone that thinks this thread is aimed at them please try not to get too defencive or feel this is an attack. I've mentioned no names and I want to discuss this in general terms and not on a personal level.


Discuss.....

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I've had this very situation come up very recently with an ex member of this forum, local to me, stealing my standard email wording and using it himself to reply to clients and passing himself off as more experienced and giving the same service. He also used it on his website.

So, he comes across as providing the same service with literally no experience and half the price. It worries me greatly that people could be taken in by this.

[Ecstatic Events]

I think you have raised a very valid point Shaun. I see it ALL the time in the mobile disco world. In summary, a whole lot of BS.

There are far too many individuals that are all mouth, no minerals.

I do feel the issue is devaluing the long established operators that have worked very hard, for many years building their brand/business.

I have been mobile for nearly 2 years, with an additional 12 years experience working bars/clubs and price myself accordingly. I am NOT expensive, the average fee probably around half of what some of you guys go out for. In business terms, I am a newbie and charge appropriately

I find it hard to comprehend the fact a "newbie" guy (less than 3-5 years experience) EXPECTS to be in a position to demand high end fees and believes they are offering value for money to their clients. IMO they are not.

All the gear, no idea - Just as bad as Sid.

Too many operators "talk themselves up" making out they are alot bigger than they are. I am guilty of using words like "we" and "our" in marketing speil but I will never hide the fact it's just little old me as a solo operator. The client books a disco with me, there's a 99% chance I'll be the DJ at their function.

If they want an additional service I can't provide, I'll recommend a supplier - simple. I focus on what I do best. That's not making a small comission selling other companies services as my own :)

[musicologydisco]

I 've seen loads who make out they are big. WE this, WE that, and you know full well it's one bloke and his disco. Even those who have been doing it for donkeys years do it. It's always been the same. The internet has made it all more visible and enabled everyone to do this that's all.

[NKR]

You can promise anything you want on a web site as you can just float around the internet copying other peoples ideas, its easier than it used to be. you don't even need to be on a forum.

Its all fur coat as the old folks used to say. Its the world of marketing we live in. How many times are you sold the dream and delivered something ish.

Those who may only have been playing the game for a few years, but can get decent google rankings are better placed than anyone. Its stopped being about what you can deliver its about how high up google you can get as its all down to what you can promise.

It is frustrating and someone turning up and doing a poor job at good money devalues more than £60 sid. What it says to people is there is no difference and I may as well have paid £100 rather than £300. This is also tied into venues charging £300 and then skimming, passing to an agent who skims and you get £150 DJ for £300. Devalues the whole thing.

If you get £60 service for £60 then all is equal. If you get £150 service for £300 all is not equal.

[DazzyD]

To be fair, Shaun, if a young, inexperienced DJ comes on here and says he's just starting off and plans to charge £100, he gets told he's not charging enough. So are we, as a forum, not partly (at least) responsible for these DJs who try to make out they're something they're not? They get the ideas of what they should be doing, and charging, from here so that's got to be part of the problem.

I think I started of the right way. I've always had an interest in music since I was a young child. I was playing the keyboard at 7, guitar at 10 and making digital music at 12. My dad was a big 60s and 70s fan and I grew up on music of that era. I then developed my own musical tastes and that was added in to the mix. So, I got a good music knowledge before I went to "big" school. When I started DJing, I started off working for a multi-op who showed me the ropes and gave me gigs here and there which, over time, built up to me being one of his most successful (and reliable) DJs. When my dad finally saw me working, he saw potential and decided to invest in me financially and Lightning Disco & Karaoke (as it was at the time) was born. From there, I've done more and more gigs and practised techniques to get better at what I do. And I still consider myself on the learning curve and my fees are still low compared to many on here.

But that's my story and things were different 20 years ago. Nowadays, people are more impatient and want things now and the natural progression aspect of being a DJ does seem to have gone out the window a bit. Can we change this? Maybe. Maybe a DJ Apprenticeship scheme would go some way to redressing the balance. But, with an uncertain future for everyone, I can't see this happening anytime soon.


You can promise anything you want on a web site as you can just float around the internet copying other peoples ideas, its easier than it used to be. you don't even need to be on a forum.

Its all fur coat as the old folks used to say. Its the world of marketing we live in. How many times are you sold the dream and delivered something ish.

Those who may only have been playing the game for a few years, but can get decent google rankings are better placed than anyone. Its stopped being about what you can deliver its about how high up google you can get as its all down to what you can promise.

It is frustrating and someone turning up and doing a poor job at good money devalues more than £60 sid. What it says to people is there is no difference and I may as well have paid £100 rather than £300. This is also tied into venues charging £300 and then skimming, passing to an agent who skims and you get £150 DJ for £300. Devalues the whole thing.

If you get £60 service for £60 then all is equal. If you get £150 service for £300 all is not equal.


Very good comments!

[Retrodisco]

This was 'back in the day' (late 90s) but kind of the same thing.

When I started, I had a partner, he had some cash and an interest, so we set up together.

I did the music, and he did the lights, this was the way it worked, as he didn't have the musical knowledge or ability to read the floor.

We had a regular friday at a pub, which goes from being 30 people when we took over to being packed to capacity.

Time goes on and our regular friday night at the pub ends, as the place is being closed for refurbishment.

A few months on and I notice the pub has reopened, and I wonder why I'm not back working there. It seemed that my partner had failed to mention that it was open and was doing it himself.

The thing is he had no skills to read a dancefloor and would just play inapproriate tracks and obscure stuff that he liked.

I went on to get a residency at a different bar, but did visit his nights now and then, and cringed. He was basically trading on my (our) name and was hopeless.

It was easy then for someone without the skills to get work, and even easier now.

[Shaun]

To be fair, Shaun, if a young, inexperienced DJ comes on here and says he's just starting off and plans to charge £100, he gets told he's not charging enough. So are we, as a forum, not partly (at least) responsible for these DJs who try to make out they're something they're not? They get the ideas of what they should be doing, and charging, from here so that's got to be part of the problem.



I'm not sure I'd wholly agree with that, but I do understand where you're coming from. What I have seen often though is experienced members encourage them to walk before they can run. They're quick to take notice of the higher fee other members command, but the inexperienced are a little more hesitant in taking the "walk don't run" advice.

I personally have never told anyone what they should be charging. I'm a great believer that people should price themselves based on their experience and level of service they offer.

[Corabar Entertainment]

I totally agree, Dazzy about the way to gain experience and work your way up.

Going out on your own should be a long way down the road. Start off going out with other experienced DJs is a far better route, and then progress SLOWLY. If I had my way, it would be compulsory!

Apart from DJing skills, you need to have some life experience, organisational skills, and business sense, to succeed and provide an all-round good service. As a teenager, it's just not possible for you to have had the life experiences, because you can't have experienced that much!

Also, when we talk about years of experience it can be misleading. Obviously, if you're only doing a gig every 2 months, a year's experience isn't a lot!

Also, what's that saying about learning with experience or experiencing the same thing over and over again?

[DazzyD]

I'm not sure I'd wholly agree with that, but I do understand where you're coming from. What I have seen often though is experienced members encourage them to walk before they can run. They're quick to take notice of the higher fee other members command, but the inexperienced are a little more hesitant in taking the "walk don't run" advice.

I personally have never told anyone what they should be charging. I'm a great believer that people should price themselves based on their experience and level of service they offer.

It's today's culture, like I said, people wanting everything now and not having to put the time and effort in to achieve it. Not just in our industry but right across the board.

I never said you've told people what they should charge. I was merely referring to the forum as a whole and this is the impression I feel we often give to young, naive and impressionable people. I think we tend to build up their expectations with "this is what you could be doing" and "this is what you can be making". I'm a big believer in keeping your feet on the ground and just to enjoy what you're doing. There's a route-map to being a good DJ and that doesn't involve jumping straight in off the deep end!

[funkymook]

There's so may angles on this - here's just one.

Take a 'perfect' gig. Nice clients, nice guests, good playlist suggestions from the client - pretty much anyone with decent gear who can use it can do an acceptable job.

Experience and knowledge (and the lack-off) start to make a difference when things aren't so perfect.

Difficult clients, guests and venues, strange music requests and no music knowledge, gear breakdowns etc.

An experienced operator will deal with all these things professionally and seamlessly as a matter of course, it won't even be noticed in most cases.

An inexperienced one may not as it's possibly the first time they have come across the scenario.

It's a bit like insurance - people will pay for it hoping they never have to use it. Booking an experienced DJ is insurance and should carry a premium.

And I don't think any of these things are particularly age related apart from the fact that it takes a certain number of gigs to gain experience.

There's also a lot to be said about attitude - but that's another long post!

[Shaun]

There's also a lot to be said about attitude - but that's another long post!

New thread...go for it. :)

[funkymook]

New thread...go for it. :)

Oh I'm sure it will pop up on here!

[DJ Jules]

To be fair, Shaun, if a young, inexperienced DJ comes on here and says he's just starting off and plans to charge £100, he gets told he's not charging enough. So are we, as a forum, not partly (at least) responsible for these DJs who try to make out they're something they're not? They get the ideas of what they should be doing, and charging, from here so that's got to be part of the problem.

I was going to mention this - the ProMobile mag runs regular articles about pricing with messages that you should charge "what you think you are worth" and to "not undervalue your services" mixed in with examples of experienced operators who are charging £450+/event without going into detail about what is really provided for this money and why their service is worth this (beyond equipment). Admittedly they do usually give sound advice about working out your overheads and event costs as well, but they are designed to leave the reader with the impression that high fees are not out of reach to anyone.

I would also like to point out that it's not just the young and inexperienced who do this, it's also the old and greedy :D

Julian

[Corabar Steve]

I think the worst thing is an inexperienced (or for that matter an experienced one) DJ with little or no musical knowledge.

I've encountered many of these over the years, ranging from one who "bigs himself up" & clearly shouldn't have progressed beyond crawling yet let alone running (to paraphrase the walk before you can run metaphore), to a long term DJ who frequently hadn't heard of inhabitants of the top 10 (in one case the artist occupying the number one spot)

Whenever we take on a DJ, I like to see what their music knowledge is like. To this end I like to give them a little quiz / test. There are no wrong or right answers as such, but you can find out a lot about what somebody knows (or doesn't) about music. We give them a sheet with the type of function, age range of clientelle & a request (& in some instances what they are already "playing") for several different scenarios. We then ask them to fill in what they would play either side of the request to keep the flow of the evening going.

A few have been rejected at this stage (a couple didn't even know some of the songs concerned, nothing obscure & all had charted).

One we let through even though some of his answers were "interesting" (but we could see where he was coming from), because he was keen & had good equipment knowledge. In the end we had to let him go. He was bloody useless & clearly had very little idea about any genres other than his "urban" favourites. While he was still with us, albeit very much in the still in training mode we received a call from a venue very desperate for a DJ on a key party night. We had none available, tried the forum for them with no joy, so under the understanding that they knew they were getting a trainee we sent him. Now we didn't just send him unprepared, oh no. I spent hours working on a playlist from the music I knew he had available to him. Little mini 3 / 4 / 5 song sets of various genres transition songs to get from one genre to another without disrupting the flow etc. In short barring requests we planned out his entire night for him. In retrospect this may have been a mistake.

He was told by numerous people that he was fantastic & the best DJ they'd ever seen (take into account that a fair proportion of these people may well have been inebriated). This boosted his confidence / ego no end. However it was the one & only time he ever went out on his one while working for us & as I said we had to let him go (much to his puzzlement) as he clearly wasn't right for us or our type of clientelle.

This now brings us to the present day, I'll not say how many years have elapsed since we let him go, but suffice to say I would still have considered myself inexperienced at functions with the same ammount of years under my belt (although I was DJing 2 or 3 times a week in pub / club invironments, so I was an experienced DJ) . He now refers to himself as a professional DJ & touts for work including weddings & corporates at quite high fees. Now there is no way that his musical knowledge can have improved to anywhere near to what he would need to cover some of these jobs, yet with a flashy website & the right words & photos (although I'm a little suspicious over the ownership of the photos, having seen some of his own kit) he's there getting some good jobs. How many functions has he ruined? I don't know. Although I'll wager it's more than he's had satisfied customers for.

Does this sort of inexperience ruin our industry for the true professionals?

Damn right it does!

[Javlingames]

I won't mention any names, as in reality I could be discussing several different people, and I don't want to single out anyone. So, this thread is made in general terms, but it's something that I've thought about for quite some time....

I'm talking about young and (in real terms) inexperienced DJs. The type that get a few ideas off forums, use the forum as the place to get all the answers, buy a booth/wizzard/whatever the latest fad is, and think that they can move up to the stage of charging a high premium for their service, When in reality they don't have the musical knowledge, skill and years of experience to back up their fee.

I truly believe that situations like this do more harm to our industry than the low cost operators we so often moan about. They sell themselves as "professionals", and to the general enquirer that's what they think they are getting, where in reality they are getting an individual that doesn't have the skill-set that years of experience brings, yet sells themselves as more than they are.

We've all seen it, young operators making out that they are bigger "companies" than they are. They are selling what is no more than an illusion to the client. Does this devalue the professional service that the true experienced DJs offer?

This isn't an 'ageist' thread. I'm not knocking all young DJs. My bug-bear is the ones that sell themselves as more than they are, and in the process not offering full transparency to the clients. Forums are great resources of information, mainly due to the wealth of knowledge that all the experienced members bring to the table and offer freely to the rest of the members. To me (and to many others) it just seems like there are DJs that take on the information and try to run before they can walk.


Is it peer pressure?

Do the inexperienced see all the information on offer and what the long term professionals offer and think "Hmmm, I can do that and charge that too", without having the real experience that time and events over a long period brings?

Are these type of DJs devaluing the service of long term established members?


I'd be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this. And to anyone that thinks this thread is aimed at them please try not to get too defencive or feel this is an attack. I've mentioned no names and I want to discuss this in general terms and not on a personal level.


Discuss.....

I dont think its fair to pin all of this on youngsters, there are older DJ's who do this too.

The musical knowledge and skill part is very subjective. I would say i have good musical knowledge to cover most gigs but as an example, steve from corabar appears to have EXCELLENT musical knowledge. Yet i probbaly charge more than him. As for skill, im not really sure where skill comes into mobile DJ'ing???? The experiance is a valid point.

I personally have never really heard of a young DJ going and getting all the gear then charging £500 a night only for it to be a flop.

[Corabar Steve]

steve from corabar appears to have EXCELLENT musical knowledge. Yet i probbaly charge more than him.
You probably do. I don't charge, the company does :sj:

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Steve....i think your test would be a good little excersise on here. Fancy posting one up in the music section?

[Ecstatic Events]

Steve....i think your test would be a good little excersise on here. Fancy posting one up in the music section?

This is a brilliant idea and one I shall steal should I ever be in a position to class myself as multi-op.

Knowing what to play, and when to change direction in genre is what makes a GOOD DJ. You simply cannot be a master of this after 2-3 years in the game.

[Shaun]

I dont think its fair to pin all of this on youngsters,

That's not my intention at all, this thread is based on my opinion of a few youngsters who fit the mould of my OP, and not all youngsters.

[Corabar Steve]

Steve....i think your test would be a good little excersise on here. Fancy posting one up in the music section?
I'll have to dig them out, or think up some new ones.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I'll have to dig them out, or think up some new ones.

Cool :) :beer1:

[Kernow]

The issue that you've raised Shaun, has a contributory factor in the over-emphasis (almost to the point of obsession) with equipment, rather than ability.
It's easy to see how those you refer to can be misled by thinking 'I've got all the right names and specs, so I must be among the best ?'
This has been clearly evidenced over and over on this forum.

Hopefully Bens' very interesting experiment may offer an interesting insight into the validity of such claims ?
;)

[Excalibur]

Well I've got to say that I feel sorry for the young DJ's, because nowadays all the kit is available at the click of a mouse, three hundred quid, a spare evening and an internet connection would get you a music collection to rival mine, and mine took thirty years to amass. Put a DJ program on your laptop, and you're away.

Create a website, send paperwork with T&C's to confirm bookings, coerce Mum or Dad to provide transport, turn up on time, simples. Instant DJ. The gear's tidy, the advertising's good, they've tapped into the lucrative wedding wedding market, so they can charge the same sort of rate as anyone else.

Except they haven't had to "serve an apprenticeship " or "pay their dues". Their knowledge of music pre 2000 is limited to the albums they've downloaded, they don't know how to make it to the end of the night with one playout channel and a microphone, avoid having to use one channel and a microphone, or cope with some of the things that the geriatrics have seen a thousand times.

We then split them into two categories. The ones who realise how much they have yet to learn, what they are capable of, and which gigs to pass on. These are the future.

Or, the ones who think that their knowledge is already more than sufficient, can take on any gig, and refuse nothing, while promising everything. These are the bane of our lives.

[soundtracker]

I've seen DJs advertising 25000 tracks as though it makes them special, however, if you don't know 9/10s of the songs, that's actually a disadvantage. Practically every NADJ meeting that I've been to there's been a pop quiz, and I've been appalled by the lack of knowledge.

[ppentertainments]

I think the internet has a lot to answer for regarding this thread, and the same applies to most professions.

Years ago you relied mainly on reputation, word of mouth etc whereas nowadays you see people paying for a fancy website full of false promises and standards which they simply cannot deliver. They get the job and by the time the event comes it is too late. Not to worry though as someone else will see the fancy website, book on false promises ...........................

I was stung by this very thing a couple of years ago when getting out back garden landscaped. We hired a guy based on his website and pictures and as soon as he started we knew he was not up to what he was claiming on the website. He done an OK job for us but nothing compared to his fancy website.

So in the DJ world we are now left with people who can get started with kit fairly cheap, pay loads for a site, charge loads based on that site, turn up with a setup that is totally different and lack of experience. By 7pm on a Saturday night there is nothing the client can do.

I do believe this is slowly changing. My aim this year was to reduce expenses, especially travelling (client meetings). However these are in demand more and more. When chatting at these meetings, before booking has been made, almost 100% of the time the client admits the reason for the meeting was simply to meet me and gain their own personal opinion instead of trusting a website. I gain MANY bookings for my down to earth approach at meetings and that my website portrays me, so from viewing my site, to meeting me, to me DJ'ing at their function, the client knows what they are getting with nothing false.

[DJRecardo]

In my opinion the problem is nowadays that the're are so many people that have a lack of knowledge and or equipment and go out to make themselves some easy money as they see it. I attended a gig over the festive period where the "DJ" was using Windows Media Player and a few very cheap LED lights which looked nasty as well as cable trailing over the floor and presenting all sorts of hazards, the problem was that the management of the venue didn't want to pay more than £100 for a hogmanay party so they booked this "DJ" as he was available on short notice.

I think the people who book the events as well as venue staff need to be better educated as to what to look for as opposed to going for the cheapest quote and assuming that every disco is basically the same, I spend a lot of time and money ensuring that my equipment is safe, reliable and suitable for the task in hand as opposed to some of the cheaper DJ's who will happily go out with both horns blown, a couple of cheap lights and no concept of health and safety and call themselves professionals.

[CRAZY K]

What a minefield:daft: :daft: :daft:

I can only say if I get asked to include a Disco with Barn/Line Dancing I dont take on what I clearly cant ( and dont want to) handle--

Thats anything involving people under 30--I pass the jobs on to the likes of Corabar Steve, SJS Scott and others I know can do the job properly, sorry its been a bit quiet recently lads:(

Most Barn Dance/Disco Weddings I do seem to involve older people (late 30s upwards) who like what I play although a lot of that is from their play lists so no prizes for playing the songs they like.

I do openly tell people I dont really do modern chart music ( other than real mega hits which reach me through playlists) and amazingly a lot of people say--we like Cheese 70s/80s anyway--so my conscience is clear.

If I was paid on age and experience I would be a multi millionaire alongside Peter:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Re the post I am not in direct competition with DJs but understand the feelings of some people that I see in some posts on here where people ( not all young) are clearly out of their depth and really ought to be passing the work to someone experienced in say 50s or 60s music--way before they were born:eek:

Particularly cringeworthy are some posts where suggestions are muted for say a 60s night (my fave) where I look at the tracks and think--bomb:daft:

To balance things off-we did a Rodeo Bull at a VERY upmarket venue at Xmas--the "DJs" were about my age, incompetent, played inappropriate music for the audience and finished with Gary Glitters Another Rock n Roll Xmas and March of the Mods---average age at gig 35. :confused:

So at both ends of the age spectrum people are taking on things beyond their experience and should be passing the work on.

I can see where Shaun is coming from.

[Shaun]

The issue that you've raised Shaun, has a contributory factor in the over-emphasis (almost to the point of obsession) with equipment, rather than ability.
It's easy to see how those you refer to can be misled by thinking 'I've got all the right names and specs, so I must be among the best ?'


:like:

[simonp]

Great thread.

I've very much enjoyed reading so far, but consumed far too much red wine to make a worthwhile or comment that makes sense at the present moment :D

[Jonathan Ford]

In vino veritas, Mr Pridmore......

[CRAZY K]

:like:

I have said many times on here--

Any DJ can buy a load of expensive equipment.

But that means nothing as regards their ability to Entertain or do a good job.

[JAMdisco]

I 've seen loads who make out they are big. WE this, WE that, and you know full well it's one bloke and his disco.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I've recently re-designed and re-worded my website. Mine was all 'we' this and 'we' that and I figured wording it in the first person rather than the third would come across as more personal.

I sometimes pass on work to other DJ's in the area but I am by no means a multi-op, they take the booking on their terms and apart from my recommendation, I have nothing to do with the function.

And yes, I agree, lack of experience (musical or equipment-wise) can be very damaging to our industry. I know a few but not mentioning names :p :D

[Charlie Brown]

:zip:

I'll leave it there but it's certainly been an interesting thread!

[BossmanKaraokeDisco]

I couldn't agree more, which is why I've recently re-designed and re-worded my website. Mine was all 'we' this and 'we' that and I figured wording it in the first person rather than the third would come across as more personal.



Did the same, realised my website was worded "us and we" so went through it and put it all in first person, "I and me".
:D :D :D

[funkymook]

If you refer to your company name throughout your site 'We' is correct (even if you are a sole trader)

If you use your own name throughout then 'I' is correct.

Try a few examples substituting company name and personal name using both I and We - it's self evident which to use and nothing to do with making out you're a bigger company than you are - you do not refer to a company as an 'I'. (or yourself as 'We' - unless you're the Queen).

As for whether it's being dishonest to use your company name and 'We' on your site - it's standard business practice and perfectly acceptable (and in fact recommended by some business advisers).

Using 'I' can in fact cause problems if you expand, take on other staff, have to substitute DJ's etc.

Of course this doesn't negate making false claims about your business or experience - but using 'We' in this context does not constitute a false claim.

[Ryu]

I need to update my I's and We's...not due to any pretentions or anything like that, simply because we were a we and now we are an I (The grammar police will love that one)

To steer things back towards the original post and subsequent comments, I think the accessability of the profession is part of the root cause here...unfortunately, acquiring enough equipment and media to perform a reasonable show isn't a difficult thing to do. Having said that, I'm amazed at some of the younger (than me) DJ's who are able to afford equipment I'd regard as high end, despite having minimal experience. Some very generous parents no doubt!

[paulg]

If you refer to your company name throughout your site 'We' is correct (even if you are a sole trader)

If you use your own name throughout then 'I' is correct.

Try a few examples substituting company name and personal name using both I and We - it's self evident which to use and nothing to do with making out you're a bigger company than you are - you do not refer to a company as an 'I'. (or yourself as 'We' - unless you're the Queen).

As for whether it's being dishonest to use your company name and 'We' on your site - it's standard business practice and perfectly acceptable (and in fact recommended by some business advisers).

Using 'I' can in fact cause problems if you expand, take on other staff, have to substitute DJ's etc.

Of course this doesn't negate making false claims about your business or experience - but using 'We' in this context does not constitute a false claim.

excellent post.

[STEVE HANLEY]

[Having said that, I'm amazed at some of the younger (than me) DJ's who are able to afford equipment I'd regard as high end, despite having minimal experience. Some very generous parents no doubt!]

I know what my parents would have told me to go and do;) ;)

To quote the words of the immortal Gene Hunt: "There will always be the haves and the have nots and the have not paid for what they bloody well haves":D :D :D Awesome!

[Charlie Brown]

I think some people are born entertainers and have a natural flare, that helps an awful lot.

I post a load of garbage on here and don't do myself any favours or justice but I know/don't think, my age effects how I work. Yeah, my music knowledge isn't out of this world but it doesn't seem to effect how I work & operate too much. My feedback from last year confirms that IMO.

[funkymook]

I think some people are born entertainers and have a natural flare, that helps an awful lot.

I post a load of garbage on here and don't do myself any favours or justice but I know/don't think, my age effects how I work. Yeah, my music knowledge isn't out of this world but it doesn't seem to effect how I work & operate too much. My feedback from last year confirms that IMO.

Not from here it doesn't! :D

[JAMdisco]

If you refer to your company name throughout your site 'We' is correct (even if you are a sole trader)

I wasn't doing it to be 'proper' just to give a more personal service really. Similarly if it's a big organisation with call centres (extreme case there) I think people would rather have direct contact with one person - I can also use this a selling point (perhaps) that I can give them my full attention to their function.


Using 'I' can in fact cause problems if you expand, take on other staff, have to substitute DJ's etc.

That's easy, I'll just redesign/update my website lol

[ppentertainments]

I think some people are born entertainers and have a natural flare, that helps an awful lot.

And some people THINK, and make others believe, they are born entertainers.

[marting]

ok as a still inexperienced op with 10 gigs under my belt, im in two minds about this thread, the first gig i did was for work mates second was in my local pub and every thing that could go wrong did but the night was a blast once the intial teething problems and the electrical supply were sorted i learnt the hard way that night.
since then i have done weddings birthday parties and xmas parties, i tell people i have only been up and running a year and to be frank it may be due to my mature years and many years in the leisure industry think im offering the same professional service as a lot of you guys who have been doing a lot longer than I, and my success IS YOU, your experiences shared on this forum, your gig reports and willingness to help the newest of newbies as long as they are prepared to listen and learn regardless of age and experience.

I hit the ground running because you taught me how to walk.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

How did I miss this thread?
Very interesting and something that I was going to post a while back (not sure why I didn't?).

Firstly, I don't think it's solely down to the 'youngsters'. I have lost count of the number of times that people will comment that what I / We do is relatively easy work when they don't have a clue how it all works.

I've been DJing as a business now for 7 years but overall I am now in my 24th year. During that time I have learnt a lot about different genres of music, played a huge variety of different gigs and to me, that's where you learn. You can have the best gear in the world, be the biggest :BS: in the world too but you'll get sussed out soon enough if you don't actually know what you are doing and it seems that there are quite a few people out there that are like this.

As Mike said (and I agree as I do exactly the same), when someone enquires about my services, more often than not (about 90% of the time), they get ME. If I'm not available and I think that someone else can do the job to the standard that I expect, I will give the enquirer the option. If they want me and I can't do it and they don't want a replacement, I'll re-direct them elsewhere.

There's the other side too - I am pretty confident in taking on any gig really but if I have doubts for whatever reason, that's where I will step aside and think about who would be more suitable for it. I've done that a few times in the past. I don't make out that I am an expert on any particular genre but I am confident in certain ones. I don't try to make out that I am some kind of huge business and the enquirer / customer knows exactly where they stand and who they are dealing with from the off.

I have other services that I can provide and I am pretty confident in the ones that I can actually do myself. I don't make a point of saying that I can supply this, that and the other but I know that if I get an enquiry for (example) a Dancefloor or Casino etc....I know the right people that CAN supply those. Again, this is made clear from the off.

It's funny that this topic should come up - I've had an enquiry this morning where I am waiting for the customer to call me back. It may be something that I can do myself...who knows? If I can't, I'll be honest...simple as that.

My worth (to me anyway) is the knowledge and experience that I have and not a few fancy lights and a great sound system. Yes, that helps but at the end of the day, you need some experience in all kinds of functions to give it the 'Big one'. Pretenders soon get found out.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

ok as a still inexperienced op with 10 gigs under my belt, im in two minds about this thread, the first gig i did was for work mates second was in my local pub and every thing that could go wrong did but the night was a blast once the intial teething problems and the electrical supply were sorted.
since then i have done weddings birthday parties and xmas parties, i tell people i have only been up and running a year and to be frank it may be due to my mature years and many years in the leisure industry think im offering the same professional service as a lot of you guys who have been doing a lot longer than I, and my success IS YOU, your experiences shared on this forum, your gig reports and willingness to help the newest of newbies as long as they are prepared to listen and learn regardless of age and experience.

I hit the ground running because you taught me how to walk.

I think the difference is, you have life experience and probably a greater music knowledge than someone a lot younger and that would have helped you immeasurably. Anyway, the thread is really talking about passing yourself off as more experienced.

[funkymook]

ok as a still inexperienced op with 10 gigs under my belt, im in two minds about this thread, the first gig i did was for work mates second was in my local pub and every thing that could go wrong did but the night was a blast once the intial teething problems and the electrical supply were sorted i learnt the hard way that night.
since then i have done weddings birthday parties and xmas parties, i tell people i have only been up and running a year and to be frank it may be due to my mature years and many years in the leisure industry think im offering the same professional service as a lot of you guys who have been doing a lot longer than I, and my success IS YOU, your experiences shared on this forum, your gig reports and willingness to help the newest of newbies as long as they are prepared to listen and learn regardless of age and experience.

I hit the ground running because you taught me how to walk.

I'd argue about you being inexperienced - experience is transferable.

[Corabar Entertainment]

I think the difference is, you have life experience and probably a greater music knowledge than someone a lot younger and that would have helped you immeasurably. Anyway, the thread is really talking about passing yourself off as more experienced.


I'd argue about you being inexperienced - experience is transferable.
:agree:

Plus, by your own admission, you tell people of your limited DJing experience.

IMO, you aren't trying to run before you can walk. You may very well be providing a great service, and has been said, you have life experience which means you have encountered many situations before which to the younger DJs would be completely alien. This puts you in a better position to handle what is thrown at you.

No-one is saying that inexperience = crap.... merely that you need time to gain experience, and with experience comes knowledge, but that some people do not seem to appreciate this.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Just thought of a scenario which is a classic example of what we're talking about really....

In my area there is a guy who I have mentioned a while back on here that is a 'pretender' if you like (and no, not the Chrissy Hynde type).

If you looked on his facebook group for his 'business', you'd be lead to believe that he is a huge operator (Sound Hire, Sound Technician, Expert Rock DJ, Live Promoter, Designer, Lighting Engineer, Record Label etc.....the list goes on...and on...).
I know the guy and 'Inexperienced' should be tattooed on his forehead.
I have lost count of the number of venues he has been given the boot from because he has let people down more often than not.
The best example that I can give with reference to this is that just over a year ago, he hired a venue to promote a gig (5 bands etc...he does it regularly...or did). People paid on the door and there were well over 120 people in the venue. About 2 songs into the first set, his speakers blew....that was it. End of gig. No back up equipment etc etc....From what I heard, he ended up 'DJing' and this was no doubt from his stack of burnt CDR's that were filled up with stuff from torrent sites.

I've had first hand experience with the guy too many moons ago when a problem arose with his sound when he was doing something at my local. I happened to be in the venue and he asked for my help. Now, this is someone who claims that they are a sound engineer amongst other things yet he couldn't work out why he was having problems. This was also the guy that claims he is an expert Rock DJ and asked me if I could do him some discs of ACDC, Iron Maiden and other bits (I refused).

The reason I mention this chap in particular is that I said it's all about experience too....Yes, music knowledge is a huge part of this business as we know but I think experience in things going wrong is another thing. You need to have had some mishaps over the years to have learnt how to get out of them etc....if that makes sense?
Imagine that you've 'bigged' yourself up and someone (a customer) is under the impression that they are dealing with a professional, experienced business etc...For example: 200 people at a wedding in a marquee and you're getting paid very well for it. You think that you are on a winner because all you need to do is do the night but halfway through it, something goes wrong and you don't know what you're doing as it's never happened to you before and it's probably something simple OR you don't have any backup with you etc etc...

[Charlie Brown]

And some people THINK, and make others believe, they are born entertainers.

:agree:

I also think some of the younger guys are better DJ's than people who've done it for years.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

:agree:

I also think some of the younger guys are better DJ's than people who've done it for years.

Who have you seen work that you are basing that on?

And what are you basing that on - mixing ability, musical knowledge, star quality, showmanship, mic use?

It could certainly be true, but I'm just interested how you are coming to that conclusion?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

That may well be the case but it isn't all about that is it?
Skills wise on the decks etc, there are loads of people both younger and older than myself who are better than I am at actually mixing etc but I don't think it's all about that. It's about mic work, personality, judging dancefloors and working in different scenarios / situations with some of those being difficult.

[funkymook]

:agree:

I also think some of the younger guys are better DJ's than people who've done it for years.


And a perfect example of a 'contentious' statement just for the sake of it! yawn!

As Darren has already pointed out - the thread is not about who is better but about inexperienced people selling themselves as being experienced!

[Corabar Entertainment]

There may well be better younger DJs (depending on what criteria you're using to say 'better'), but it's not all about purely DJing skills is it? We're talking about the whole package from the minute the client contacts you to after the event. There are a lot more skills involved than just the DJing aspect....

...and surely you can't deny that anyone (whatever their natural abilities) will grow and learn with experience?

[simonp]

Who have you seen work that you are basing that on?

And what are you basing that on - mixing ability, musical knowledge, star quality, showmanship, mic use?

It could certainly be true, but I'm just interested how you are coming to that conclusion?


And a perfect example of a 'contentious' statement just for the sake of it! yawn!

As Darren has already pointed out - the thread is not about who is better but about inexperienced people selling themselves as being experienced!


There may well be better younger DJs (depending on what criteria you're using to say 'better'), but it's not all about purely DJing skills is it? We're talking about the whole package from the minute the client contacts you to after the event. There are a lot more skills involved than just the DJing aspect....

...and surely you can't deny that anyone (whatever their natural abilities) will grow and learn with experience?

:like:

[Charlie Brown]

Who have you seen work that you are basing that on?

And what are you basing that on - mixing ability, musical knowledge, star quality, showmanship, mic use?

It could certainly be true, but I'm just interested how you are coming to that conclusion?

Not necessarily mixing ability but star quality, showmanship and reading the dancefloor/judging the atmosphere.

:)

[STEVE HANLEY]

This industry is no different to any of the others I've worked in. Full of bluffers. There are djs on here who have forgotten more than I'll ever know.

I'll never be as good as some of the guys on here, but I can hold my own(Ooer Titter ye not missus:D :D ) But you just have to look at some of the plonkers that don't come on here anymore. To realise if your full of :Censored: You'll soon be sussed;) ;)

[Corabar Entertainment]

Not necessarily mixing ability but star quality, showmanship and reading the dancefloor/judging the atmosphere.

:)
...and that's all there is to this whole business, is it?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Not necessarily mixing ability but star quality, showmanship and reading the dancefloor/judging the atmosphere.

:)

I don't think you're 'getting it' Charlie.

[Corabar Entertainment]

I don't think you're 'getting it' Charlie.
:like:

[Charlie Brown]

...and that's all there is to this whole business, is it?

Nope, not at all! I also think there are younger DJ's who can sell themselves better and deal with clients with ease.


I don't think you're 'getting it' Charlie.

I understand that turning up on the night is a small % of the overall job/package but being able to pull a decent night off certainly helps!

There are certainly younger DJ's out there who can do a damn sight better than the bloke down the road who's done it for 30 years.

[Corabar Entertainment]

:whoosh:

[Shakermaker Promotions]

What you seem to forget Charlie is...
(a) That 'bloke down the road who's done it for 30 years' has been doing it for 30 years....How has he done it for 30 years? Possibly because he KNOWS what he is doing and has also the necessary skills to do the job.
(b) He was 'young' once! 30 years doing the same job is a long time in anyones mind and he has obviously learnt a lot during that time.

You can say what you like but I would personally much rather book someone that has a vast amount of experience and knows the industry inside out than some guy who has been doing it for 5 minutes, thinks he's the best thing since sliced bread because he can 'mix' when in reality, that's all he can do.

[NKR]

This industry is no different to any of the others I've worked in. Full of bluffers. There are djs on here who have forgotten more than I'll ever know.

I'll never be as good as some of the guys on here, but I can hold my own(Ooer Titter ye not missus:D :D ) But you just have to look at some of the plonkers that don't come on here anymore. To realise if your full of :Censored: You'll soon be sussed;) ;)

Forums are full of bluffers and blaggers. Its an ego thing for people. When you are comfortable in your own skin you don't need to blag.

As you get older you get more comfortable in your own skin. I do feel there is a generational gap between those of us who were teenagers in the 90's and those today. Not sure why as such, but it may come back down to this instantaneous Xfactor thing and also to do with 24 hour exposure to everyone via facebook and social media.

We just sort of hung out in our own groups and never coveted other peoples lives (bar wanting to be in the Wonderstuff, etc). Its harder now as its 24 hour show off time for the youngsters each trying to be the best.

[Charlie Brown]

:whoosh:

Explain what I'm missing then? :)

[yourdj]

Damn i have been caught out :D i will retire now.
I don't know how many we's we have on our website :)

Don't know who you are talking about (cant be the lovely chap above me can it?) tbh
but I must add that it is not only young DJ's but people any age to be honest.

Experience is gained through time no matter the age. Also the amount of effort put in, attitude and dedication.

i like the wizard and deckstand booth comment - very true, but trends are trends and it would not be so if people did not follow them.
They look 100 x better than the overheads and banks of lighting I was looking at when i started Djing (not too long ago I may add).

I still have the same minimal set up i had when I started pretty much. :) still looks good.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Explain what I'm missing then? :)Charlie, it you can't 'get it' from reading this thread, then I have no idea how else to explain it to you!

Many people with little experience appear to think they know it all (or at least a lot more than they do); those with more experience know they don't!

:lol:

To gain that experience, you need to experience everything along the way.... skipping from A-Z misses out a lot of letters!

[Charlie Brown]

Kind of get you. Ta. :beer1:

[Jiggles]

I think this site has a lot to do with it.

You get some young people come onto here with their shows that are lacking visually. They see the bigger guys shows and want that or some of the guys on here say that they need x, y and z. They get into that mind set that they have all this kit and can charge for it as the bigger guys can.

It has happened on this site also that some kid comes along and states there very low prices and load come thought saying thats too cheap you need to charge more so they do. Maybe that their prices are set at a level they feel that they are worth? But its peer pressure created by the forum onto impressionable minds thats somewhat causing this.

If we can go about when young people wanting to become a mobile DJ is to support them in ways that don't mean they feel pressured into buying loads of different and expensive equipment. From what I can see it leads to people getting ahead of themselves and getting too big for their boots. If some kid comes along with a pair of Maplins finest and a moonflower or two and charge £50 and it works for them go with it instead of criticising it and saying its crap the speakers are crap and they aren't charging enough is for us to stop doing so and support them. When they feel that they are doing well, their business is expanding then they may look into getting better kit. For now what they have is more than perfect!

[Matty12]

:agree:

I also think some of the younger guys are better DJ's than people who've done it for years.

:agree:

[Corabar Entertainment]

:agree:
Now there's a surprise!

Now, I would really love to know what you're basing your opinion on, Matthew. What's your experience of other DJs both young and old? What situations (and I'm not talking about entertaining a crowd) have you seen where things have gone wrong that were handled well / badly to be able to make such a statement? Who have you seen you has bitten off more than they can chew, etc?

[Matty12]

Charlie, it you can't 'get it' from reading this thread, then I have no idea how else to explain it to you!

Many people with little experience appear to think they know it all (or at least a lot more than they do); those with more experience know they don't!

:lol:

To gain that experience, you need to experience everything along the way.... skipping from A-Z misses out a lot of letters!

To be fare how can you tell that really, unless you been to there gigs??

You are right in some things for example younger DJ's will not have a good understanding about equipment and the technology side of things.

And by the way we don't think we know it all, but you older guys think we don't know hardly anything. Until you know the DJ and know how he work / information, then you can judgement of that DJ!

[Matty12]

Now there's a surprise!

Now, I would really love to know what you're basing your opinion on, Matthew. What's your experience of other DJs both young and old? What situations (and I'm not talking about entertaining a crowd) have you seen where things have gone wrong that were handled well / badly to be able to make such a statement? Who have you seen you has bitten off more than they can chew, etc?

What I find really annoying about older DJ's is that they say its all about experience, music knowledge (which it is) etc etc but how can they justify this endless you been to there gigs, have a good chat with them to ask about what experience they have, see how they manage there events and get a very good understanding of how there business works / what they do???

[Corabar Entertainment]

What I find really annoying about older DJ's is that they say its all about experience, music knowledge etc etc but how can they justify this endless you been to there gigs, have a good chat with them to ask about what experience they have, see how they manage there events and get a very good understanding of how there business works / what they do???
That's exactly what I'm saying.... you can't make the statement you did because you can't have much in the way of experience of ANYTHING at your age.

No-one is saying "Older DJs are better than younger DJs". However, the same person, with the same skill set, will be better all round when they have experience of lots of different situations.

You can't climb to the top of a ladder without stepping on each rung, but some people seem to think they can jump from the second rung to near the top in one go! Those people are bound to come a cropper at some point, and the client will suffer - along with further damage being done to the industry (ie people's perception).

It's the people who do not appreciate the value of experience, and think that they can do it all without any / very little experience that I (and others on this thread) have issue with.

[Matty12]

That's exactly what I'm saying.... you can't make the statement you did because you can't have much in the way of experience of ANYTHING at your age.


No the reason I'm not saying about all my experience is actually because i find it hard to put it into words and for the record Melt Music DJ have lots of experience which you don't know about!!:o

[Shaun]

That's exactly what I'm saying.... you can't make the statement you did because you can't have much in the way of experience of ANYTHING at your age.

No-one is saying "Older DJs are better than younger DJs". However, the same person, with the same skill set, will be better all round when they have experience of lots of different situations.

You can't climb to the top of a ladder without stepping on each rung, but some people seem to think they can jump from the second rung to near the top in one go! Those people are bound to come a cropper at some point, and the client will suffer - along with further damage being done to the industry (ie people's perception).

It's the people who do not appreciate the value of experience, and think that they can do it all without any / very little experience that I (and others on this thread) have issue with.
:like:

[Corabar Entertainment]

No the reason I'm not saying about all my experience is actually because i find it hard to put it into words and for the record I have lots of experience!!:o
You think you have lots of experience. At your age, you CAN'T! You just haven't been around long enough to experience many of life's situations! You're not even an adult yet, so much of the world is still closed to you, and there is so much that you just cannot have experienced..... but here you are saying "I have lots of experience!!"

You're kinda proving our point for us!

[Matty12]

You think you have lots of experience. At your age, you CAN'T! You just haven't been around long enough to experience many of life's situations! You're not even an adult yet, so much of the world is still closed to you, and there is so much that you just cannot have experienced..... but here you are saying "I have lots of experience!!"

You're kinda proving our point for us!

Like what? You haven't even really met me properly!

[Corabar Entertainment]

:bang: :bang: :bang:

OK Matthew.... you're the first 15 year old in history who's experienced more of life than every adult.

I'm sorry to say it, but you're coming across like a know-it-all teenager.

You can't see it now (very obviously), but hopefully, you'll read this back / remember these posts in years to come.....




..... and CRINGE!

[chrisj]

That's exactly what I'm saying.... you can't make the statement you did because you can't have much in the way of experience of ANYTHING at your age.

No-one is saying "Older DJs are better than younger DJs". However, the same person, with the same skill set, will be better all round when they have experience of lots of different situations.

You can't climb to the top of a ladder without stepping on each rung, but some people seem to think they can jump from the second rung to near the top in one go! Those people are bound to come a cropper at some point, and the client will suffer - along with further damage being done to the industry (ie people's perception).

It's the people who do not appreciate the value of experience, and think that they can do it all without any / very little experience that I (and others on this thread) have issue with.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I must agree with the above. As an example I took a booking from a client who said 'The last DJ we had 2 yrs ago said he had all the music as we wanted lots of 60's, 70's and 80's. He had loads of cd's but being a youngster he didn't know the various artists of the good old days'

[Matty12]

:bang: :bang: :bang:

OK Matthew.... you're the first 15 year old in history who's experienced more of life than every adult.

I'm sorry to say it, but you're coming across like a know-it-all teenager.

You can't see it now (very obviously), but hopefully, you'll read this back / remember these posts in years to come.....




..... and CRINGE!


NO NO NO you just don't get what I mean because I can't explain it and no I don't think I know more then you at all. I've been doing this for 5 yr and 3yrs properly and with not going to school because of cancer so on, I have a lot more experience then you think.

I posted a link to another DJ who knows me saying "i agree there you have seen and experienced alot more than most adults DJ's ever have / tbh its why i keep away from forums full of old ****** that are scared of the youth.
what the guy is saying really is that doesn't know you and thinks he knows it all
reality he is being the older version of what he thinks you are" :o :)

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Right, think I'll stick my 2 pence in....

I generally agree with most comments, however a young age doesn't always show lack of experience.

At 18, I was gigging 4 nights a week, between pubs, clubs and mobile. I had already done 2years worth of sound and lighting engineering with a professional company working at festivals and had just started my first quiz night. Granted I knew my limitations but would have been somewhat insulted if someone accused me of being inexperienced.

Now here's the thing that I think set me apart at that age....I had good mentors and I listened to them! ;)

[Matty12]

Right, think I'll stick my 2 pence in....

I had already done 2years worth of sound and lighting engineering with a professional company.

Now here's the thing that I think set me apart at that age....I had good mentors and I listened to them! ;)

I have very good mentors. and I've done that as well

[Shaun]

Right, think I'll stick my 2 pence in....

I generally agree with most comments, however a young age doesn't always show lack of experience.

At 18, I was gigging 4 nights a week, between pubs, clubs and mobile. I had already done 2years worth of sound and lighting engineering with a professional company working at festivals and had just started my first quiz night. Granted I knew my limitations but would have been somewhat insulted if someone accused me of being inexperienced.

Now here's the thing that I think set me apart at that age....I had good mentors and I listened to them! ;)

At 18 I had been DJ'ing for 2 years a few times a week.. I thought because I'd been gigging constantly for 2 years I knew loads, and I was always getting great feedback and praise on the Gigs I did. It's only now looking back with hindsight that I can reflect on my inexperiences back then, despite thinking I was pretty clued up at the time.

The REAL experience of the job has come from many years of providing a committed service to my clients.

[Matty12]

And I haven't just had one DJ saying that I have had about nine saying it!!!! :o

[Dynamic Entertainment]

I have very good mentors. and I've done that as well

I wasn't aiming my statement at you particular Matthew....however, forgive me for being blunt but some of the questions you've asked and statements you've made on this forum leads me to believe that either;

a. You haven't had the level of experience you say....my reference for myself is working for a whole week at a festival, doing installs, etc etc...

b. Your mentors aren't all you say they are....

[Charlie Brown]

At 18 I had been DJ'ing for 2 years a few times a week.. I thought because I'd been gigging constantly for 2 years I knew loads, and I was always getting great feedback and praise on the Gigs I did. It's only now looking back with hindsight that I can reflect on my inexperiences back then, despite thinking I was pretty clued up at the time.

The REAL experience of the job has come from many years of providing a committed service to my clients.

Okay, I'm inclined to go and agree with that.

Why should that stop me charging a high fee? Do you think people develop and improve at different levels?

I know for a fact (although this probably doesn't effect my DJ'ing/business acumen) that I've got an oldish mind in a young body (which I hate) but does help me in day to day life.

If I wanted to, I could sort out my paperwork/organisation skills - attend loads of wedding fayres and have a decentish business but I don't know what I want to do.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Two key points from that post, IMO...
I knew my limitations...

....I had good mentors and I listened to them! ;)... and the other point is that I am sure that you wouldn't have leapt from pubs and clubs to trying to pretend to be a big events company (if that was your aim). (Not saying that it is/was/that you do.... merely using an extreme example to illustrate the point.)

You need to take each step, grow bit-by-bit, slowly taking on gigs higher up the ladder, laying the ground-work and establishing procedures, gradually increasing the services you offer, little-by-little taking on bigger gigs too - ie.... step up each rung of the ladder, and take your time doing it, too!

If you skip the rungs on the ladder, you skip the experiences that go with that rung.

[Kernow]

To gain that experience, you need to experience everything along the way.... skipping from A-Z misses out a lot of letters!

I was looking for an analogy, keeping it within Shauns' generalisation and not pointing at individuals (;)) , and I came up with:

"Experience is the difference in ability to nurse an ageing and battered van on a round trip across the Pennines.... rather than just a mere lap around the Nurburgring in a Subaru Impreza" ?

:D

[Matty12]

I wasn't aiming my statement at you particular Matthew....however, forgive me for being blunt but some of the questions you've asked and statements you've made on this forum leads me to believe that either;

a. You haven't had the level of experience you say....my reference for myself is working for a whole week at a festival, doing installs, etc etc...

b. Your mentors aren't all you say they are....

You did it for a week? I did it for 2yrs 3 days a week!! for 5hrs a day


There needs to be more options!!

[Dynamic Entertainment]

At 18 I had been DJ'ing for 2 years a few times a week.. I thought because I'd been gigging constantly for 2 years I knew loads, and I was always getting great feedback and praise on the Gigs I did. It's only now looking back with hindsight that I can reflect on my inexperiences back then, despite thinking I was pretty clued up at the time.

The REAL experience of the job has come from many years of providing a committed service to my clients.

As I say, mine wasn't just dj experience, it was the whole concept of running a large business, but just because I had an idea on how do it, it didn't mean I went and gave it a go. My musical knowledge was great (even if I say so myself) and technically I could cope with any issue thrown at me...buying couldn't run a business....that bit im still learning... ;)

[Charlie Brown]

You did it for a week? I did it for 2yrs 3 days a week!!


There needs to be more options!!

Matt, why do you come across as a :Censored: :Censored: on here yet when I spoke to you on the phone a few nights ago, you were really cool.

I could say a lot more but won't.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

You did it for a week? I did it for 2yrs 3 days a week!!


There needs to be more options!!

Matthew...please read what I'm typing properly. I worked for WEEKS AT A TIME at festivals. At 17, I engineered at over 10 festivals, completed installations in dozens of venues. I often worked 6 or 7 days a week for 2 years.

Working like that for 3 days a week for 2 years....I find that hard to believe with some of your posts on here....either that or you've learned very little....

[Matty12]

Matt, why do you come across as a :Censored: :Censored: on here yet when I spoke to you on the phone a few nights ago, you were really cool.

I could say a lot more but won't.

Like i said charlie about forums! ;)

and if i come tomo what time do i need to be there? :D

[Charlie Brown]

Like i said charlie about forums! ;)

and if i come tomo what time do i need to be there? :D

You're being a goon like I was/am.

Why is your mum your 'agent' then? Why does she deal with all the calls/booking process?

[Kernow]

Matt, why do you come across as a :Censored: :Censored: on here yet when I spoke to you on the phone a few nights ago, you were really cool.

I could say a lot more but won't.


Like i said charlie about forums! ;)

and if i come tomo what time do i need to be there? :D


You're being a goon like I was/am.

Why is your mum your 'agent' then? Why does she deal with all the calls/booking process?

Is this now a social networking site ? :(

[ppentertainments]

This thread is so cringeworthy I haven't read it all properly.

However if the kids on this thread are trying to get the point over that age does not matter - I feel they have achieved the exact opposite. Maybe not in a DJ sense, but in business practice and the real world.

[Charlie Brown]

However if the kids on this thread are trying to get the point over that age does not matter - I feel they have achieved the exact opposite. Maybe not in a DJ sense, but in business practice and the real world.

Slightly patronising don't you think?

[Shaun]

Okay, I'm inclined to go and agree with that.

Why should that stop me charging a high fee? Do you think people develop and improve at different levels?

I know for a fact (although this probably doesn't effect my DJ'ing/business acumen) that I've got an oldish mind in a young body (which I hate) but does help me in day to day

I'd never presume to tell anyone what they can charge, including yourself. I really don't want to direct his thread on a personal level with anyone so I'll keep my answers in general terms.

Do people develop and improve at different levels? ...of course. That said, there are DJs that he been going for over 40 years gigging week in week out. Having real time gig experience and experience of the music as its happening there and then. To me those guys will in most cases have far more experience than me with my petty 24 years experience. I'm a great believer if you live through the different musical eras and experience them first hand, that (in most cases) gives you a greater level of experience than those that haven't. Of course there will be exceptions, but for the majority I believe it to be true.

What I've seen from time to time is DJs that are asking the fundamental business questions and musical questions on forums, which is great, because we all are here to improve. But on the flipside to that they are selling themselves as having more experience than they have.

None of this is an attack on anyone, it's just my personal observation and viewpoint in some cases I've seen.

This thread has generated interesting debate so far, and I know it's subject matter may rattle a few cages but it's not intended to upset anyone. Just a friendly debate, nothing more nothing less. :beer1:

[simonp]

However if the kids on this thread are trying to get the point over that age does not matter - I feel they have achieved the exact opposite.

:agree:


Slightly patronising don't you think?

Not really Charles, smacks of the absolute truth I'm afraid

[ppentertainments]

Slightly patronising don't you think?

Never mentioned names, just the way some posts read I can only assume they have been posted ny kids. If I offend anyone, maybe that person/s needs to read through this thread and see how certain posts come across. I believe only the guilty party/parties will be offended.

[Charlie Brown]

What I've seen from time to time is DJs that are asking the fundamental business questions and musical questions on forums, which is great, because we all are here to improve. But on the flipside o that they are selling themselves as having more experience than they have.


Again, pretty much the above could be aimed at myself because I ask for a lot of help on the music/business side front.

I'm a drama queen and need a lot of reassurance. Most of the time I know the right thing to do but appreciate it when an outsider confirms what I intend to do. That statement probably doesn't do me any favours but it's only because I'm passionate about what I do.

I spoke to a lady on the phone last month. At the time, I thought she was shopping round for prices until I received a call from her last week. She wanted me to visit her ASAP, so I did. After an hours meet she explained she had been to various wedding fayre's and that I was the only DJ who 'put her at ease and understood what she wanted'

I understand this was a rare occurrence but I did walk out with a £3k+ booking out of it.

Not many people could say they have worked for a respected estate agency at 17. I learnt a hell of a lot there - business, admin, sales and dealing with the public on a daily basis.

I do sound like a know it all now and I'm not meaning to boast. Just trying to get my point across. :)

[Pe7e]

After an hours meet she explained she had been to various wedding fayre's and that I was the only DJ who 'put her at ease and understood what she wanted'

I understand this was a rare occurrence but I did walk out with a £3k+ booking out of it.

I bet that bit of info will put the cat amongst the pidgeons Charlie, well done.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I do sound like a know it all now and I'm not meaning to boast. Just trying to get my point across. :)

And your point is, that you are a blagger CB. You may be an entertainer, but the simple fact is, you don't have the substance to back it up at this point and neither does Melt Music Boy.

What was it you posted yesterday on FB?

"Brides, leave me alone" or something similar?

I read Melt Musics posts and all they are is a watered down incorrect version of what you have learnt from me and told him. No experience, just what I have told you and you have told him.

Sorry if this is harsh, but I have had enough of the BS and pretence.

[Solitaire Events Ltd]

I bet that bit of info will put the cat amongst the pidgeons Charlie, well done.

I refer you to my last post. Blagger.

Promising things that you shouldn't. Letting your gob get carried away.

[Charlie Brown]

I'll still deliver the goods and deliver a good service regardless of whether I'm a blagger or not. I didn't get 35 emails/texts/cards out of 52 bookings last year for nothing. I don't request feedback. It's all unsolicited.

[Matty12]

I read Melt Musics posts and all they are is a watered down incorrect version of what you have learnt from me and told him. No experience, just what I have told you and you have told him.

Sorry if this is harsh, but I have had enough of the BS and pretence.

And thats why my mum does all the business side of things at the moment!

[Corabar Steve]

And I haven't just had one DJ saying that I have had about nine saying it!!!! :o
Are you sure they weren't just saying that to be encouraging because they were aware of your situation?

You may well be a great DJ for what you do, but would you have the slightest clue how to handle a corporate or about wedding etiquette? By your own admission your mum handles the business side of things, but that is part & parcel of what we do.


Slightly patronising don't you think? Probably, but incredibly accurate. Ever heard of the arrogance of youth?

How many times have you gotten yourself up the creek by biting off more than you can chew? Just going by what you've posted on the forum, if I was using my digits to count them I'd have to take my socks off. Point proven.


Matthew, with all your experience (sic) I see you still haven't answered he questions posed you on the thread that I would imagine partly inspired this one. To save you looking, I'll re-post them below. I await your answers.


.....
What would you play for someone in a suit then? :confused:


Go on then, what you play for me? I'm 43.


& me I'm 44. You've met both of us so you know what we wear & what we look like.

What would you play for us if we were guests at a party you were DJing at?


However, I too would like to through down the gauntlet to Matthew and see what he'd play for me. I'm 36, currently wearing black trousers, black shoes and a black and white pinstripe shirt. I've taken my tie off and unbuttoned my top button. What song selection would make my day?? :confused:

The fact is that you (Melt Music DJ) are an inexperienced 15 year old. You could DJ every night for the next year & you still would be. Experience comes with time, it is not something that happens instantly or appears over night.

It has been said to you before, For Melt Music DJ to work you need to get some (more) experience in DJing for your own age group before you take the next step up the ladder. Even with your Mum in tow I doubt you'd be able to handle a group of drunk 18 or 21 year olds if they kicked off at you. Now that is something that you learn to handle through experience!

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I bet that bit of info will put the cat amongst the pidgeons Charlie, well done.

Ok, I'll bite shall I?
£3K+?
All I can say is "Wow!" (and that's all I will say on that I think).

I've just caught up with this thread this morning and didn't expect it to go on for this long! It's quite entertaining early on a Saturday morning.

I'm not really sure what else I can add to this thread really as a lot of it has been said already and the latest comments from Darren appear to be along the same lines as I am thinking, however I am pretty certain that Darren has worded it better than I could.

I'll say it again though - It IS all about experience in my opinion.
I had just turned 20 when I started DJing properly. I had never done it before and was in at the deep end from Day 1. I did a number of years in night clubs and that gave me huge experience. Over the years I've DJ'd in Clubs, Bars and promoted my own nights....again, good experience. Residencies are another good way of gaining experience too and I've done that and learnt a lot over the years.

I'm pretty certain that the above I mention is pretty much what most of the guys on this forum have done on their way to where they are now. You don't just suddenly say "I want to be a DJ" and within seconds you are the best thing out there and know everything about everything....You need time to learn and to cope with different situations and to gain both knowledge and experience across the board.

I still find it amusing that some people can say that they could work out what music you like by looking at what you're wearing. Sorry but that's very immature. That prompts me to mention a guy from last night at my local gig. Huge bloke with a skinhead, loads of tattoos etc... He comes over and I expect him to ask for some Ska/Two Tone simply because of the way he looks but does he?
No! (He actually wanted some Drum n Bass).

[ppentertainments]

I bet that bit of info will put the cat amongst the pidgeons Charlie, well done.
Not really without knowing the profit and what it entailed.
Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

[Pe7e]

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.

I couldn't agree with you more, it's the bottom line that really counts, having said that, and not knowing the details of the gig, I would still be a little suprised if Charlie had underpriced himself.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Success doesn't come over night, its something that the younger members seem to never understand (I know there have been exceptions to the rules).

Like Steve mentioned already if you know your limitations and listen to the guys who you aspire to be like then you'll progress so much quicker than trying to promise the world and not having a clue what your actually doing.

[NKR]

Saying that if you never push yourself you never get any further.

There have been some rather petty posts on here, which is why I have kept well out of it.

I assume £3k+ is not just a DJ job. I would be fascinated to know what they are looking at booking (not prices of each element, but what will be going into that job). That is not to start blurting out Charlie can't do it, but just purely out of interest as would like some of that action.

Meltmusic you have not done what you say you have done. The fact you woke up in your bed in means you must have dreamt it.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Saying that if you never push yourself you never get any further.

Evolution not revolution ;)

[Excalibur]

I was looking for an analogy, keeping it within Shauns' generalisation and not pointing at individuals (;)) , and I came up with:

"Experience is the difference in ability to nurse an ageing and battered van on a round trip across the Pennines.... rather than just a mere lap around the Nurburgring in a Subaru Impreza" ?

:D

But the really clever bit is getting a faster lap time out of the van than the Impreza. ;) :D :D

[Shaun]

Aga. Most of the time I know the right thing to do but appreciate it when an outsider confirms what I intend to do. That statement probably doesn't do me any favours but it's only because I'm passionate about what I do.



Passionate? Really truly?

I've been trying my hardest to keep things on a general sense. But since you're persevering by posting on a personal level relating to yourself ...I'll bite.

Does the quote below really sound like a guy passionate about the service industry he's in? You talk the talk Charlie, but deep down that's not the sense I have about you.


really can't be arsed to reply to all these emails. Go away brides

[Charlie Brown]

Does the quote below really sound like a guy passionate about the service industry he's in? You talk the talk Charlie, but deep down that's not the sense I have about you.

Fair enough - Yeah, I really couldn't be bothered a few days ago. I haven't been very well at all (mentally) so I'm/have been all over the place. I was having a bad day and really couldn't be bothered to speak to anyone, never mind several clients. Stupidly, I vent my anger on FB.

You've taken something that I posted several days ago completely out of context.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Fair enough - Yeah, I really couldn't be bothered a few days ago. I haven't been very well at all (mentally) so I'm/have been all over the place. I was having a bad day and really couldn't be bothered to speak to anyone, never mind several clients. Stupidly, I vent my anger on FB.

You've taken something that I posted several days ago completely out of context.

Not really Charlie, you think you are the only one that has bad times, issues? For gawd sake folks on here run businesses and have families to look after. Man up

[Charlie Brown]

Not really Charlie, you think you are the only one that has bad times, issues? For gawd sake folks on here run businesses and have families to look after. Man up

Of course I don't and I've had this conversation with Darren but problems to individuals are relevant. I'm not going to delve into my personal life now because it's irrelevant.

[funkymook]

You've taken something that I posted several days ago completely out of context.

If anything was ever 'in context' that was!

You obviously don't realise that those sort of comments give an impression of what you think about your clients and the DJ business - it's another example of inexperience.

And ask anyone about difficulties in their lives - we all have them, you are in no way unique, and dare I say it, that's your inexperience showing again.

[Corabar Entertainment]

Nevermind FB.... earlier in this thread....
If I wanted to, I could sort out my paperwork/organisation skills

[Excalibur]

May I urge all concerned in this thread to please take care to avoid excessively personal posts. I think we are getting dangerously close to crossing the line of acceptability, and would hate to see this degenerate into personal attacks, when the thread was started in general terms.

Thank you one and all.

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Charlie....personal issues should be viewfinder a facade of professionalism....

On the 8th of December my father passed away....whilst I was setting up fora Xmas party night....the clients none fussiest and that's how it stayed, and a good night was had by all.

We buried him fpolkaing Friday....and I went to work that night too....the BBC endowed said it was one of the beSt nights he had ever seen.

Professionalism in the eyes of the client...and possible le clients....trumps everything.

[Shaun]

You've taken something that I posted several days ago completely out of context.

It's completely in context. You're somebody that sells themselves as a professional, but time and time again you tend to show yourself of being completely the opposite (in my opinion), with some of the things you say and they way you operate your business (based on things you have told us on the forum, and comments on FB). It couldn't be any more in context if I tried! Apologies if this is perceived as personal, but it's in direct response to your post.

That's my final word on this in a personal sense directed to any individual member. From now on I'll keep it in a general sense as Peter has indicated in an earlier post.

[Shaun]

Charlie....personal issues should be viewfinder a facade of professionalism....

On the 8th of December my father passed away....whilst I was setting up fora Xmas party night....the clients none fussiest and that's how it stayed, and a good night was had by all.

We buried him fpolkaing Friday....and I went to work that night too....the BBC endowed said it was one of the beSt nights he had ever seen.

Professionalism in the eyes of the client...and possible le clients....trumps everything.

Good post. A true professional !! :beer1: :beer1: :beer1:

[Dynamic Entertainment]

Sorry guys for the dodgy spelling....been typing on my phone and it's not the best....but you get the jist of it.

[STEVE HANLEY]

Charlie that throw away comment you posted on FB about wishing the brides would go away cos you can't be bothered.

I'll just say this mate, Be careful what you wish for........I sincerely hope non of those brides saw that comment on FB.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I'd put money on it that the comment will have a very negative effect. That will seem pretty obvious to the rest of you on here.
It's a bit like going on the internet when you're drunk and posting stuff and then really regretting it the next day. Do it once and you learn and (hopefully) never do it again.

So, on that note....I am going to the pub on my night off now and will no doubt tell all of my potential customers in the early hours of tomorrow morning whilst being a dribbling wreck that I wish they'd all leave me alone which will no doubt mean I won't have much of a business left to build up.

[marting]

Is it me or has this post just about exhausted itself.......

[Shaun]

Is it me or has this post just about exhausted itself.......

I believe so. It was ever intended to be about any single person, but sadly (and probably predictably so) certain individuals sidetracked it.

Regrettably, and for the harmony of the forum.... :closed: