Should i return deposit?

[djdave01]

On the 7th March, I posted out a booking form to a client for a 21st birthday.

On the 18th March, i got an email saying she had posted back the form, but had to cancel the party, i replyed saying it wasnt a problem and thanked her for letting me know.

Today, her completed form has arrived, along with her deposit in cash.

My head says i should return the deposit, but i did hold her date for almost 2 weeks and I turned away another possible booking for the same date.

My terms state that deposits are not refundable.

Because ive had to pass the other possible gig im now inclined to keep her deposit.

What would you do?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Think about it.....
You sent the forms on 7th March.
She emailed you on 18th March to cancel the party.
You received the deposit today.
She had 11 days to get the form back to you and she either sent it back by pigeon and maybe expecting a refund or she sent it back after she'd emailed you and has therefore done the decent thing?

You've answered all your own questions mate...
NON REFUNDABLE!

I'd keep it. I would email her to say that you've received the form and deposit and take it from there. If she asks for it back, you tell her the details (Non Refundable etc).

I'd maybe be inclined to just leave it but I think it's courtesy to say that you've received it.

[JAMdisco]

Yep, I too would keep it.

I personally would call her and tell her that you have received it and that, although the deposit is non-refundable, you will hold it against any future bookings providing you are free on the date.

Maybe also explain that you had to pass off another booking on that date.

If she's signed your contract and (hopefully) your T&C's then it's not your problem. :)

[Corabar Entertainment]

If I've understood this correctly, she advised you that the party was not going ahead BEFORE the arrival of the contract and deposit.

In which case, you may be on a very sticky wicket keeping the deposit.

It all depends upon WHEN the contract is actually formed, which largely depends upon your procedures.

Do your T&Cs state when the contract is formed?
Do you sign a copy of the contract?
If so, do you do this when you receive from the other party?

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Maybe I'm still half asleep so apologies but I read it as that the forms were sent on 7th March and she cancelled on the 18th and then the forms turned up?

[Pe7e]

If I've understood this correctly, she advised you that the party was not going ahead BEFORE the arrival of the contract and deposit.

In which case, you may be on a very sticky wicket keeping the deposit.

It all depends upon WHEN the contract is actually formed, which largely depends upon your procedures.

Do your T&Cs state when the contract is formed?
Do you sign a copy of the contract?
If so, do you do this when you receive from the other party?

I was thinking along the same lines myself, also, depending on the circumstances of how the gig was obtained the distance selling regulations, cooling off period MAY be applicable

Cancellation period in the case of contracts for the supply of services

12.—(1) For the purposes of regulation 10, the cancellation period in the case of contracts for the supply of services begins with the day on which the contract is concluded and ends as provided in paragraphs (2) to (4).
(2) Where the supplier complies with regulation 8 on or before the day on which the contract is concluded, the cancellation period ends on the expiry of the period of seven working days beginning with the day after the day on which the contract is concluded.
(3) Where a supplier who has not complied with regulation 8 on or before the day on which the contract is concluded provides to the consumer the information referred to in regulation 8(2) and (3), and does so in writing or in another durable medium available and accessible to the consumer, within the period of three months beginning with the day after the day on which the contract is concluded, the cancellation period ends on the expiry of the period of seven working days beginning with the day after the day on which the consumer receives the information.
(4) Where neither paragraph (2) nor (3) applies, the cancellation period ends on the expiry of the period of three months and seven working days beginning with the day after the day on which the contract is concluded.

[Corabar Entertainment]

DSRs do not apply to our industry, Pete, so irrelevant here.

[djdave01]

Yep, I too would keep it.

I personally would call her and tell her that you have received it and that, although the deposit is non-refundable, you will hold it against any future bookings providing you are free on the date.

Maybe also explain that you had to pass off another booking on that date.

If she's signed your contract and (hopefully) your T&C's then it's not your problem. :)

I was thinking the same thing, and yes she signed the contract on the 9th March


If I've understood this correctly, she advised you that the party was not going ahead BEFORE the arrival of the contract and deposit.

In which case, you may be on a very sticky wicket keeping the deposit.

It all depends upon WHEN the contract is actually formed, which largely depends upon your procedures.

Do your T&Cs state when the contract is formed?
Do you sign a copy of the contract?
If so, do you do this when you receive from the other party?

Yes, she informed me before i recieved the contract & deposit, but she signed it back on the 9th

No, my T&C's dont state when a contract is formed but they do state that 'once a deposit is paid, it is not refundable'

No, i dont sign a copy of the contract, but i do confirm either by phone, email or in writing that i have received the contract & deposit.


Maybe I'm still half asleep so apologies but I read it as that the forms were sent on 7th March and she cancelled on the 18th and then the forms turned up?

Yes, thats right.

[Pe7e]

DSRs do not apply to our industry, Pete, so irrelevant here.

I stand corrected, I did say 'may be applicable' since I couldn't be bothered to trawl through the regulations in depth. :)

[sweetie]

Did she mention or ask for the deposit back, by the way?

[djdave01]

Did she mention or ask for the deposit back, by the way?

No, her email was 'Hi, I have sent back the booking form but I'm really sorry, the hall is no longer available for the party so I'm going to have to cancel. Thanks anyway, jill x'

My repy was 'Hi Jill, No problem, i'll cancel your provisional booking. Strange for a venue to cancel a booking, dont think thats ever happened before. If you manage to get an alternative venue get back in touch, hopefully your date may still be available. Kind regards, Dave'

I expected the form to be returned un-completed and without a deposit

[Corabar Entertainment]

The problem still keeps raising in my mind as to when the contract is formed.

Although there is a presumption in contract law that the contract is formed at the time of posting, because there are two parties to the contract, you have to consider if it is possible to create a unilateral contract in this case (ie whether it is created just by the customer posting, or whether it is necessary for you to acknowledge it - and therefore accept your commitments.) Personally, unless you have strictly adhered to rules about the contract being issued and returned during a specific time scale, and you categorically agree not to take on other enquiries during that holding period, then it would be nonsensical to consider the possibility of a unilateral contract, because you would be bound by the contract just by the act of the customer posting!

I would argue that there is a good case for the contract not being formed until you confirm acceptance. At that point, both the customer and you will have signified your intention to be bound by the terms of the contract.

Furthermore, your communicated response...
My repy was 'Hi Jill, No problem, i'll cancel your provisional booking. Strange for a venue to cancel a booking, dont think thats ever happened before. If you manage to get an alternative venue get back in touch, hopefully your date may still be available. Kind regards, Dave'...clearly shows that you considered it to be a provisional booking at that point in time, rather than a fully contracted booking. (The fact that you misunderstood and assumed she was merely returning an uncompleted form is irrelevant.)

Given the above reasoning, IMO, she advised you that the party was not going ahead before the contract was formed, and you would therefore not be entitled to keep the deposit.

[DeckstarDeluxe]

I stand corrected, I did say 'may be applicable' since I couldn't be bothered to trawl through the regulations in depth. :)

Have to say its something I never post about because I'm not an expert on the matter. With issues relating to legal stuff such as this you really need to be 100% sure of the facts before posting on an open forum.

For the record if any doubt is in my mind about being able to keep the deposit I would just return it.

[ppentertainments]

Have to say its something I never post about because I'm not an expert on the matter. With issues relating to legal issues such as this you really need to be 100% sure of the facts before posting on an open forum.

For the record if any doubt is in my mind about being able to keep the deposit I would just return it.

I agree, any doubt I return it.

[Gary]

Small print aside...(I hate it when it's used on me, and try not to use it on others)...

I'd turn up/drive past her venue at the date/time of the "cancelled" (cough cough) party - maybe she didn't have to cancel the party, but good old friend of a friend of a cousins mates wife's ex-fiancées, dog walkers 2nd cousin has offered to bring-along-a-lappy and do the gig for 50p, a beer and a snog.

If the party venue is cold n dark and not holding this persons "cancelled" gig, I'd be tempted to return the deposit after the date. Why? Well, the client has presumably gone through her selection process, read a few disco websites, trawled a few papery telephone directories, made her short-list, refined her shirt list, and eventually chose.....you! Good choice! Obviously she's a good judge of character and discos etc.

If theres no party, then its not that shes "switched allegences" and... If shes not married already, there's a chance that she'll be looking for a wedding DJ in the not too distant future... Or her mates will be looking for either a wedding DJ or their own 21st party DJ any time now. (if she had no mates of party age, she wouldn't have even thought of a party)

If send can confirm she genuinely cancelled the event, I'd be VERY tempted to send her a birthday card, a cheque from you for her £100, an explanatory letter advising that whilst the small print says that the deposit is non-refundable, you would like her to bear you in mind when she eventually gets her next party organised, be it next month, next year or an entirely different occasion altogether (as you are not only a birthday party DJ, but also an accomplished Wedding host etc) (sow the seeds ).... Include a handful of business cards for her close friends, make sure you feature all your contact details, suggest she stores your number in her mobile for the future and see what happens.

Sure... You could simply lose £100 and no follow on bookings from her, or her friends birthdays or weddings...

Sure... You could get just 1 birthday booking from her in a years time.

However, your "good deed" could spread across the clients social network etc (with all your contact details) and you could end up with several bookings, each
an advert for your DJing skills, to differing (and yeah...some overlapping) circles of guests.

It's a bit of a fruit machine situation...

[DazzyD]

Have to say its something I never post about because I'm not an expert on the matter. With issues relating to legal stuff such as this you really need to be 100% sure of the facts before posting on an open forum.

For the record if any doubt is in my mind about being able to keep the deposit I would just return it.


I agree, any doubt I return it.

Can't fault that approach. If you need to ask whether or not you should keep the deposit, despite it being written in your T&Cs, then I would suggest you give it back. Clear conscience! Simples!


Small print aside...(I hate it when it's used on me, and try not to use it on others)...

I'd turn up/drive past her venue at the date/time of the "cancelled" (cough cough) party - maybe she didn't have to cancel the party, but good old friend of a friend of a cousins mates wife's ex-fiancées, dog walkers 2nd cousin has offered to bring-along-a-lappy and do the gig for 50p, a beer and a snog.

If the party venue is cold n dark and not holding this persons "cancelled" gig, I'd be tempted to return the deposit after the date. Why? Well, the client has presumably gone through her selection process, read a few disco websites, trawled a few papery telephone directories, made her short-list, refined her shirt list, and eventually chose.....you! Good choice! Obviously she's a good judge of character and discos etc.

If theres no party, then its not that shes "switched allegences" and... If shes not married already, there's a chance that she'll be looking for a wedding DJ in the not too distant future... Or her mates will be looking for either a wedding DJ or their own 21st party DJ any time now. (if she had no mates of party age, she wouldn't have even thought of a party)

If send can confirm she genuinely cancelled the event, I'd be VERY tempted to send her a birthday card, a cheque from you for her £100, an explanatory letter advising that whilst the small print says that the deposit is non-refundable, you would like her to bear you in mind when she eventually gets her next party organised, be it next month, next year or an entirely different occasion altogether (as you are not only a birthday party DJ, but also an accomplished Wedding host etc) (sow the seeds ).... Include a handful of business cards for her close friends, make sure you feature all your contact details, suggest she stores your number in her mobile for the future and see what happens.

Sure... You could simply lose £100 and no follow on bookings from her, or her friends birthdays or weddings...

Sure... You could get just 1 birthday booking from her in a years time.

However, your "good deed" could spread across the clients social network etc (with all your contact details) and you could end up with several bookings, each
an advert for your DJing skills, to differing (and yeah...some overlapping) circles of guests.

It's a bit of a fruit machine situation...

I wouldn't take this approach. I'd be too busy working someone else's function to be even thinking about this!! ;)

[Shakermaker Promotions]

Now we know some additional information on this scenario, I have to say that I am now in doubt as to what I would do.

Firstly, I guess we have to take her word for it that the venue became unavailable. If that's 100% true, I'm sure IF she paid a deposit / booking fee for that and it became unavailable, she would have had her deposit / booking fee returned to her? Therefore, she may think that she'd be entitled to a refund from the OP too?

The venue's Terms & Conditions may well differ from the OP's too?
If it's clearly stated on the OP's booking forms that the deposit / booking fee is non-refundable then she should take notice of that plus the fact that you mentioned you turned down work because you provisionally booked her in.

Bit of a weird one though as I am pretty sure that a lot of us turn down work because we have a booking on the date that is required. It's not often that you turn down work for a date and then the booking on that date is cancelled, resulting in no work at all. Saying that again....that's why we have booking fees and deposits isn't it?

As I said, strange scenario and it's totally up to you at the end of the day. Part of me would want to return the money paid because I would feel slightly guilty. I know it's business but you have to have a heart too sometimes. Thing is, you do it once and then it will happen again along the line somewhere.

All you can do is believe what you're being told I suppose.
I wouldn't personally go and check the venue, even if I didn't have another booking to replace it.

[JAMdisco]

I'd turn up/drive past her venue at the date/time of the "cancelled" (cough cough) party - maybe she didn't have to cancel the party, but good old friend of a friend of a cousins mates wife's ex-fiancées, dog walkers 2nd cousin has offered to bring-along-a-lappy and do the gig for 50p, a beer and a snog.

Surely if this is the route to go down, a quick 2 minute telephone call to the venue would do it :confused:

[Excalibur]

Now if I understand this bit correctly, has she sent a contract signed only by her, since you would normally sign and return it? I'd have been unsure that at that stage, a binding contract actually exists, especially as she'd cancelled it before that point.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

[djdave01]

Now if I understand this bit correctly, has she sent a contract signed only by her, since you would normally sign and return it? I'd have been unsure that at that stage, a binding contract actually exists, especially as she'd cancelled it before that point.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

Ive never signed and returned a copy of a contract to anyone, maybe i should be. But in all my years of doing this, ive mostly just phoned or emailed the client to confirm receipt of the contract & deposit.

Only on odd occasions has a client asked for written confirmation. When it has happened ive just sent a letter stating that their booking for (date) has been completed & ive received the deposit.

I feel that because ive lost another job that i could have done, its fair enough for me to hold the deposit, but my consience says i should return it.

Its possible another enquiry will come in and i'll end up working anyway but its only a few weeks away so im not holding my breath.

[Shakermaker Promotions]

I have always signed both copies and I get them to (obviously) return one of them signed to me. That way, we BOTH have copies with BOTH signatures on it. I think it's better to be covered just incase...

[sweetie]

Why not explain due to her paying the NRD and the fact you turned down another booking that you will have to keep it with the proviso that should you get another job, however slight a chance, that you would refund and/or it would count towards an alternative booking.

[boomerangdiscos]

i would return the deposit as a goodwill gesture firstly because this is a tricky situation as the client adviced about the cancellation before the deposit arrived, and secondly returning the deposit could as stated in one of the posts above generate several future bookings.

[sonicdj]

i would return the deposit as a goodwill gesture firstly because this is a tricky situation as the client adviced about the cancellation before the deposit arrived, and secondly returning the deposit could as stated in one of the posts above generate several future bookings.

Agree

[djdave01]

i would return the deposit as a goodwill gesture firstly because this is a tricky situation as the client adviced about the cancellation before the deposit arrived, and secondly returning the deposit could as stated in one of the posts above generate several future bookings.

After chatting with a few other people, and reading the comments on here, ive decided its best to return the deposit.

Ive lost another booking and had the hassle & expense of sending out the contract, but my consience will feel better :)

[DeckstarDeluxe]

Digital contracts my friend, close the deal in a shorter space of time and thus means the chances of this happening again is very small ;)

[Corabar Entertainment]

Digital contracts my friend, close the deal in a shorter space of time and thus means the chances of this happening again is very small ;)
Actually, the chances of this particular scenario happening with digital signatures is ZERO (think about it!)

[djdave01]

Digital contracts my friend, close the deal in a shorter space of time and thus means the chances of this happening again is very small ;)

I do use an online booking system, and most of our clients are happy to use it, unfortunalty not all clients do and they want the old posted contract instead :(

[sweetie]

Dave, if you were entitled to keep the deposit (grey area?)and she didnt ask for it back, I would have kept it. It's a business!

[hammy]

I have not replied because I`m on both sides of the fence here, giving it back could mean another booking from the same client, "Ooh what a nice guy he was, He even returned our deposit" or you could say, "Hi buddy do you know a good Dj?" ex client says " anyone but Dave as he is out to rip people off". But then again business is business.